Martyn Hocking Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Seems to be some tension between posters and moderators at present, which might be worth exploring. A few thoughts from me (a regular poster but not a mod): 1. Having taken the decision to have mods, the site's operator is now in the legal firing line in the event of anyone at BCFC or elsewhere getting the hump and deciding to sue for libel. For this reason any posts involving allegations about player misbehaviour have to be taken down. 2. As an independent site, otib should in my view not bow to pressure from the club to take down stories purely because they contain information that is not in the public domain. There is a clear distinction between 1 and 2 in my view. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Seems to be some tension between posters and moderators at present, which might be worth exploring. A few thoughts from me (a regular poster but not a mod): 1. Having taken the decision to have mods, the site's operator is now in the legal firing line in the event of anyone at BCFC or elsewhere getting the hump and deciding to sue for libel. For this reason any posts involving allegations about player misbehaviour have to be taken down. 2. As an independent site, otib should in my view not bow to pressure from the club to take down stories purely because they contain information that is not in the public domain. There is a clear distinction between 1 and 2 in my view. Thoughts? Agreed. With regard to point 2, processes are being put in place to ensure the moderators aren't put in the position we were regarding the Portugal line ups thread in future. The Trust has done a lot of work to liaise with the club, so that we're not left to make a call on something that may be sensitive but not damaging and we are very grateful to them for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Rollason Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Am aware of rules and am happy to abide by them. If i wasn't i would go elsewhere. Seems simple enough. In answer to the point 2, that's obviously a tricky one. Whilst wanting to remain independent if Gj wants something taken down then, within reason, i don't see why not... but who's call is that going to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Sadly it seems the internet is becoming more a legal minefield each year. Only a couple of weeks ago I had to take CityStats offline because of a pretty serious legal threat. It seems the somewhat enjoyment of being able to read anything is overshaddowed by the fact that someone nearly always wants to object. It's very frustrating when the Club come to me or another moderator and ask for action to be taken. Being independant means a few things, the supporters trust and the hosts are first in the firing line. Nither of which want any legal action against them and neither would have the time and resource to deal with such. We call it as we see it and yes the removal of the team thread when the team were in Portugal might have been the wrong action but there isn't much we can do to reverse that now. We can look at what happened and make sure the club don't presure us into such action again. It's very frustrating that we get legal threats aimed at us all the time yet other forums don't. I can assure you that I am personally as frustrated as anyone else when things get deleted. All of the mods/admin on here with the exception of myself do this work unpaid and in their spare time. It's not as if I have enough time in my job to really give it the attention it deserves anymore hence why after spending 9 hours in front of PC today I'm still finding time to fix problems on here at 9pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcbs20 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 tom who do you get legal threats from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcshorey Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 if you or the hosts are getting legal threats. How are ziderheads allow to post stuff thats been taken off here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Stuff does get taken off ziderheads. It pisses me off with refugess coming from here to there and using it as a place to post stuff that wouldn't go on otib. They aren't the ones that could lose everything by a xourt action. People need to wake up and realise there is a paper trail for nearly everything on the net, and just because places like ziderheads have a log in it doesn't mean admin know who's reading it. Otib has to be ever more carefull given the thousands that browse it I suggest some look into the whole Sheffield Wednesday farce, it's an eye opener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWurzel Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Tom - would be interested to know more about what forced you to take down City Stats? It was a great resource, and can't possibly see how anyone could object to a website showing historical football results?! Madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Tom - would be interested to know more about what forced you to take down City Stats? It was a great resource, and can't possibly see how anyone could object to a website showing historical football results?! Madness. It was something that I hope will be resolved soon. City Stats badly needs a re-write and I haven't got the time (and to be honest, the ability) to have a proper rewrite. Essentially its a massive database (currently in MSSQL) and a front end that was written 10 years ago. If anyone seriously fancies writing a new front end and admin side to allow easy updating of it then please contact me - tom@cliksoftware.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 tom who do you get legal threats from? In the past, football clubs (not necessarly city I might add), Newspaper/Media companys (Libel etc), Individuals (Slander, False alegations, Libel), Photographers (unlicenced use of images), The FA/Football League/Dataco (use of fixtures, match images, club crests) Lets not also forget that people in the past have wrote letters to the directors at Clik trying to get me sacked for things that I didn't do. It's a wonder why I do still persist really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollymarie Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 As Tom has just shown, there are no depths that some people wont sink too, and it makes it even sadder when its someones livelihood. Because of the way the world sadly is these days, the mods are always cautious when it comes to removing things, and whilst some decisions could be looked back on and deemed a bit over sensitive, sometimes if no one else is around when the decision needs to me made, one person has to make a split second choice that not everyone will like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tales From The Front Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 The amout of media management by the club has increased at the same time that the general media output by City has improved over the last 5 to 10 years. The question is do you compromise your principles at a time that the club is enjoying a upturn in fortunes and whilst I am a big fan of the professionalism introduced in to the club and winning mentaility. There has to be some sense of perspective and feel free to constructively make a point if you wish to. There is a general Johnson says and therfore it is attitude amoungst some supporters...bourne out by the unecessary abuse that Basso has got for example. Its true that the club have a right and should dispute any deflamation of character or misrepresentation as we all have, but the idea of direct Policing this Forum is something that doesn't sit very comfortably. It will end up being the case of "its a good day for a bad news story to come out". No doubt the Directors and the Football staff must read this Forum and pull their hair out at times but thats the same on every Forum in ever club in the country. I think generaly as the recent poll on this Forum showed that 9 times out of 10 the majoirty think the manager and his staff are doing a really good job, you will always get decenting voices, its just something that high profle people have to deal with. As long as it is not in breach of the law it should be part and parcel of a spectrum of different views. But of course ultimately we have the choice to post or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onejohngalley Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 The amout of media management by the club has increased at the same time that the general media output by City has improved over the last 5 to 10 years. The question is do you compromise your principles at a time that the club is enjoying a upturn in fortunes and whilst I am a big fan of the professionalism introduced in to the club and winning mentaility. There has to be some sense of perspective and feel free to constructively make a point if you wish to. There is a general Johnson says and therfore it is attitude amoungst some supporters...bourne out by the unecessary abuse that Basso has got for example. Its true that the club have a right and should dispute any deflamation of character or misrepresentation as we all have, but the idea of direct Policing this Forum is something that doesn't sit very comfortably. It will end up being the case of "its a good day for a bad news story to come out". No doubt the Directors and the Football staff must read this Forum and pull their hair out at times but thats the same on every Forum in ever club in the country. I think generaly as the recent poll on this Forum showed that 9 times out of 10 the majoirty think the manager and his staff are doing a really good job, you will always get decenting voices, its just something that high profle people have to deal with. As long as it is not in breach of the law it should be part and parcel of a spectrum of different views. But of course ultimately we have the choice to post or not. The problem with allegations made on sites such as this is that we all hide behind pseodonyms thinking that protects from the laws of libel. It does not, of course, because the site controllers have our names and email addresses. They have to govern the material partly for our own good and to stop the site being sued. Groundless accusations should not be made but comment is fine. Simple rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tales From The Front Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 The problem with allegations made on sites such as this is that we all hide behind pseodonyms thinking that protects from the laws of libel. It does not, of course, because the site controllers have our names and email addresses. They have to govern the material partly for our own good and to stop the site being sued. Groundless accusations should not be made but comment is fine. Simple rule. Fair points with which I totallyagree, I just think that on occassion the ability to make comment is also controlled. Perhaps my misconception. However I fell both the Supports Trust and th eModerators on occassion have been in a no win situation. And the club is always on to a winner becuase the majority of us want the club to do well and would be very reluctant to rock the boat to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcbs20 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 In the past, football clubs (not necessarly city I might add), Newspaper/Media companys (Libel etc), Individuals (Slander, False alegations, Libel), Photographers (unlicenced use of images), The FA/Football League/Dataco (use of fixtures, match images, club crests) Lets not also forget that people in the past have wrote letters to the directors at Clik trying to get me sacked for things that I didn't do. It's a wonder why I do still persist really. dont give them the satisfaction of packing in the site i can now see the predicament all the mods are in with all those people sticking there orr in i know it must be hard work but keep up the good work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Man Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 In the past, football clubs (not necessarly city I might add), Newspaper/Media companys (Libel etc), Individuals (Slander, False alegations, Libel), Photographers (unlicenced use of images), The FA/Football League/Dataco (use of fixtures, match images, club crests) Lets not also forget that people in the past have wrote letters to the directors at Clik trying to get me sacked for things that I didn't do. It's a wonder why I do still persist really. Well, I would just like to thank you for giving up your time. This forum has given me so much pleasure, reading supporters' views. If I see you in the Dolman bar I would buy you a pint. Thanks for all the hard work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 In the past, football clubs (not necessarly city I might add), Newspaper/Media companys (Libel etc), Individuals (Slander, False alegations, Libel), Photographers (unlicenced use of images), The FA/Football League/Dataco (use of fixtures, match images, club crests) Lets not also forget that people in the past have wrote letters to the directors at Clik trying to get me sacked for things that I didn't do. It's a wonder why I do still persist really. How many more times? I didn't write a letter, I sent an email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWurzel Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 How many more times? I didn't write a letter, I sent an email. :rofl2br: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Seems to be some tension between posters and moderators at present, which might be worth exploring. A few thoughts from me (a regular poster but not a mod): 1. Having taken the decision to have mods, the site's operator is now in the legal firing line in the event of anyone at BCFC or elsewhere getting the hump and deciding to sue for libel. For this reason any posts involving allegations about player misbehaviour have to be taken down. 2. As an independent site, otib should in my view not bow to pressure from the club to take down stories purely because they contain information that is not in the public domain. There is a clear distinction between 1 and 2 in my view. Thoughts? My thoughts centre on the nightmare scenario that our country will soon become totally controlled by blood sucking litigation lawyers. Anyway, I took the following definitions from Wikipedia and it's the right that people have fought and died for over many centuries......... The right to freedom of speech and expression Freedom of speech, or the freedom of expression, is recognized in international and regional human rights law. The right is enshrined in Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 13 of the American Convention on Human Rights and Article 9 of the African Charter on Human and Peoples' Rights. Freedom of speech today is understood as a multi-faceted right that includes not only the right to express, or disseminate, information and ideas, but three further distinct aspects: The right to seek information and ideas; The right to receive information and ideas; The right to impart information and ideas. International, regional and national standards also recognize that freedom of speech, as the freedom of expression, includes any medium, be it orally, in written, in print, through the Internet or through art forms. This means that the protection of freedom of speech as a right includes not only the content, but also the means of expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Well, I would just like to thank you for giving up your time. This forum has given me so much pleasure, reading supporters' views. If I see you in the Dolman bar I would buy you a pint. Thanks for all the hard work! Agree; tis a fine line that must be walked; rumours and stories are just that, be it on transfers or from the inside workings of our club; this forum gives us views,insight and opinions on, quite a lot; long may it continue and the mods are there to stop us stepping over that line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff65 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 If a decision is made to delete a thread then I would like to see a new thread created under the same heading and an explanation why it was deleted and then closed immediately by the moderator. EG Portugese Team Side Deleted as <insert name of BCFC Employee requesting deletion> as the manager didnt want the details released. Thread Closed Basso is a Wally Deleted as <insert name of Basso's legal team and his position eg solicitor> said that this thread was deflamotory and asked us to pull the thread before further action was taken. Which Home Fixture are you going to enjoy most Deleted as Mr X from the Football League said that a list of all BCFC's home matches was a breach of copyright and further legal action may be brought if we dont delete the thread I feel an explanation of who and why in a closed thread would be very useful. If a subsequent thread is started then again it might need to deleted and a new thread started as to the explanation and then a warning that if members are unhappy that they are not happy with the decision then it is up to them to take the matter up directly with the instigator of the censorship rather than putting the forum at risk of legal threats and all subsequent new threads can be deleted on the same matter can be deleted without explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheese Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 My thoughts centre on the nightmare scenario that our country will soon become totally controlled by blood sucking litigation lawyers. Anyway, I took the following definitions from Wikipedia and it's the right that people have fought and died for over many centuries......... The right to freedom of speech and expression Freedom of speech, or the freedom of expression, is recognized in international and regional human rights law. The right is enshrined in Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 13 of the American Convention on Human Rights and Article 9 of the African Charter on Human and Peoples' Rights. Freedom of speech today is understood as a multi-faceted right that includes not only the right to express, or disseminate, information and ideas, but three further distinct aspects: The right to seek information and ideas; The right to receive information and ideas; The right to impart information and ideas. International, regional and national standards also recognize that freedom of speech, as the freedom of expression, includes any medium, be it orally, in written, in print, through the Internet or through art forms. This means that the protection of freedom of speech as a right includes not only the content, but also the means of expression. I often see Freedom of Speech quoted in debates like this one. Perhaps it's should be renamed to Freedom of Opinion. I am free to express my opinion that X, Y or Z is a gobby little so and so etc etc. What I cannot be free to do is suggest that X, Y or Z have been involved in certain activities without the proof to substatiate the claim - and if I have proof then I am free to tell whomever I wish. And that is how it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 I feel an explanation of who and why in a closed thread would be very useful. If a subsequent thread is started then again it might need to deleted and a new thread started as to the explanation and then a warning that if members are unhappy that they are not happy with the decision then it is up to them to take the matter up directly with the instigator of the censorship rather than putting the forum at risk of legal threats and all subsequent new threads can be deleted on the same matter can be deleted without explanation. Quite agree. I had a post removed last saturday but recieved no explanation, not even a PM as to why said post was removed. The silence was defening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Quite agree. I had a post removed last saturday but recieved no explanation, not even a PM as to why said post was removed. The silence was defening. I was away and unaware that you'd had a post removed. You are more than welcome to PM me for an explanation, if you wish to, and I'll investigate it for you. Try to remember that the people moderating this forum are volunteers and telling people why a post has been removed (especially when it's pretty bloody obvious anyway), isn't always a priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollymarie Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Quite agree. I had a post removed last saturday but recieved no explanation, not even a PM as to why said post was removed. The silence was defening. It was deleted (not by me) because it was potentiallly libelous. And as I said in the thread at the time, there wasnt really a point to it on the opening day of the season when we should be concentrating on getting behind the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider head Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 To be fair ALL POSTERS can be moderators on this site as there is a REPORT button that gets used a hell of a lot by non mods to suggest a post is not right, we act on that but get the flak, 80% of thread deletions are acted on via the report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 It was deleted (not by me) because it was potentiallly libelous. And as I said in the thread at the time, there wasnt really a point to it on the opening day of the season when we should be concentrating on getting behind the team. This is the first 'explanation' that I've heard. I would disagree about 'libellous' - in what way? and who deleted it? Plus when the post was made is irrevent, opneng day or not. Thats your opinion. I think a poster is entitled to an explanation when they have a post deleted. Far better that posts mysteriously disapearing, abducted by the forum polce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 This is the first 'explanation' that I've heard. I would disagree about 'libellous' - in what way? and who deleted it? Plus when the post was made is irrevent, opneng day or not. Thats your opinion. I think a poster is entitled to an explanation when they have a post deleted. Far better that posts mysteriously disapearing, abducted by the forum polce. Starting threads with the word 'Apparently' and then going on to describe some incident in the dressing room, which you cannot confirm took place, is not acceptable. I think the moderators are entitled to expect grown men to post responsibly and not leave us with a mess to clear up just because they decide it's a good idea to post some scenario that may or may not be true on this forum. But then, I guess we can't have everything. If you're going to call us 'forum police', try to remember that the police wouldn't be necessary if everybody abided by the rules in the first place. Did you email the forum Admin for an explanation? No. Is that what you should do if you have a complaint or query about how an issue has been handled on here? Yes. You posted some gossip you've heard third hand (I can probably guess where you heard it). It is completely unverifiable and paints certain individuals in a very bad light when none of them can really defend themselves. Your post was quite rightly deleted, and if you post similar again, that will also be deleted. However, next time, you may wish to go through the correct channels with any grievance you may have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Man Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Quite agree. I had a post removed last saturday but recieved no explanation, not even a PM as to why said post was removed. The silence was defening. You are being very arrogant, Robbored. I am grateful to the guys for giving up their time. Have you offered to give them a hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chowie Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 remember people it's a FREE forum, for FUN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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