Punching Above Our Weight

[spudski]

Exactly, that 0-6 defeat hurt and the management and players should be doing everything to redeem themselves from that debacle. I noticed a hell of a lot of new posters on here backing up the management responsible with the attitude of 'oh well we're only a small football club it doesn't matter'. Well it does matter because with the money recently spent we should now be challenging for promotion not looking behind at the relegation pack.

I'll put myself down as being a 'new poster'.

For some reason a lot of people don't read other forum members posts properly, and only read what they want to read.

I've never seen the statement 'oh well, we're only a small football club it doesn't matter', anywhere on here, and i don't think any City fans believe this.

What annoys a lot of fans, are the vocal minority, who think we are 'A Big Club' that have a divine right to be promoted.

Bristol City are an average Club, striving to be bigger and better, under the guidance of a level headed Chairman in Steve Lansdown.

All fans can see things aren't right down at the Club at the moment.

The money spent is small compared to the other clubs vying for promotion. Whether it has been spent wisely is another matter.

What prompted me to join this forum and comment, was the frustration of seeing so many so called 'Football experts' calling for the head of the management.

Before anyone thinks i'm a 'happy clapper' and stand by the managements decisions, i'm not.

I personally think GJ has probably gone as far he can take us. I am also not a fan of his backroom staff. And most probably a change is needed.

But...And this is the big difference. Do people honestly think bringing in a New Manager now, at this present moment, is going to improve our season?

The upheaval would only be a step backwards. Yes, if things don't improve, make changes in the summer, when the squad can develop properly.

Changing managers at this time of the season, very rarely improves a teams performance long term.

[WellRedPhil]

Without wanting to sound rude...do you actually read other peoples responses and threads? You are missing the point of this thread completely.

Yes, I've read every post in this thread and regularly read and post on this forum, i don't have the time to read every thread, but I only post in threads that I have fully read. And I don't think I am missing the point of the thread, I believe I am making a valid point as i just don't happen to agree with yours.

What did you expect them to say - 'We're aiming for midtable mediocrity'? Every team goes out to win every game and every team aims to win promotion.

To start with, i wasn't having a go, I was just responding to another post, so maybe you should take spudski's advice and bother to read all the posts before replying; and secondly, no it isn't. Every teams aim in our league is not promotion, and at the start of the season i know for a fact that Scunny stated their aim was to remain in the league. I also believe top 2 was a silly aim for us, top 6 would have been far more reasonable as I do not believe we are, or were, anywhere near the top 2. I don't think we should be setting unrealistic aims and if we truly believed we could get automatic then surely this season has been a massive underachievment and both Landsdown and Johnson have vastly overestimated the squad, would you not agree?

[Nogbad the Bad]

Yes, I've read every post in this thread and regularly read and post on this forum, i don't have the time to read every thread, but I only post in threads that I have fully read. And I don't think I am missing the point of the thread, I believe I am making a valid point as i just don't happen to agree with yours.

To start with, i wasn't having a go, I was just responding to another post, so maybe you should take spudski's advice and bother to read all the posts before replying; and secondly, no it isn't. Every teams aim in our league is not promotion, and at the start of the season i know for a fact that Scunny stated their aim was to remain in the league. I also believe top 2 was a silly aim for us, top 6 would have been far more reasonable as I do not believe we are, or were, anywhere near the top 2. I don't think we should be setting unrealistic aims and if we truly believed we could get automatic then surely this season has been a massive underachievment and both Landsdown and Johnson have vastly overestimated the squad, would you not agree?

I'll happily stand corrected but was it not SL whose stated aim was top 2?

I don't think many of us thought this was a realistic goal and perhaps statements like this, if he did indeed say it, puts a little too much pressure on the manager for success that we're not actually capable of.

The goal shouldn't be more important than how you get there over a long season and the discontent of the fans would seem to indicate that it's important for many to enjoy the journey.

[WellRedPhil]

I'll happily stand corrected but was it not SL whose stated aim was top 2?

I don't think many of us thought this was a realistic goal and perhaps statements like this, if he did indeed say it, puts a little too much pressure on the manager for success that we're not actually capable of.

The goal shouldn't be more important than how you get there over a long season and the discontent of the fans would seem to indicate that it's important for many to enjoy the journey.

Maybe it was just GJ that said this then, although surely the seasons aims were discussed between them both before our target was announced publically? I do agree with you however that this can add more pressure and that it is not always wise to set such ambitious targets at the start of the season.

[downendcity]

spudski's arguement seems to me to be summed up as:

Since we've historically been unsuccessful, we shouldn't expect any more than that and if we are doing better than we have in the past we should be content. Complaining is why we're not more successful and we're only really unhappy because we got to the playoff final and have unrealistic expectations. There are lots of bigger clubs in our league and we should be more accepting of our place. If we're not we'll lose the manager and the club will be worse off.

I don't think anybody would dispute we're historically unsuccessful, I see that as a piss poor reason to be content with our lot and I think we should always want the club to progress reasonably. I am not dismayed by the league position and I don't actually think many city fans are. I also don't think any City fans failed to recognise the playoff final for the massive over-achievement it was. I've not seen a single post on this forum complaining that we didn't match it the following season nor do I see anybody disputing that there are bigger clubs in this division.

However I believe there's massive potential in Bristol City FC. Bristol is a large and growing city, massive catchment, no real competition, it's also a rich economy. We have the new stadium plan going full steam. We have several players in the squad of very high quality. We have large financial investment by both us, the fans, as we spend millions on tickets and by our chairman who underwrites running us at a large loss. Yes there are clubs with more resources, not as many as some think but there are. There are few with more long term unrealised potential - if any.

I think we've every right to look to steadily go forward both in terms of entertainment and results. Not at a crazy pace, and not without hiccups; nobody's asking for miracles despite what some claim. Nobody expected us to immediately improve on the playoff final or even match it. I said at the start of the season that I'd be content with top half and happy if we had something to play for at the right end of the table until the last day. That hasn't changed and I don't think it's unrealistic.

The fact is however that for the last 18 months our results and performances have slowly and steadily gone backwards. The games particularly at home (which have a much bigger impact on the fans since more of them are there) have been far less entertaining and personally I've found it very frustrating this season to see a squad containing at least three of the best players in the division so woefully unbalanced. Although for me the league position isn't a concern the level of enjoyment has dropped massively because of the way we're playing and I think that's a very bad thing for the club.

Over that 18 months, GJ has been shown a lot of patience because of his first two full seasons which were very successful and he will be shown more and I'm sure will be in a job at least until the end of the season. But that patience is finite, it is finite at every football club in the world for every single manager. We have to start going forward on the field again and getting something back from the massively increased spending. To be brutal, previous success is utterly irrelevant - it's about whether there is likely to be success in the future and how to best achieve it.

Does the fact that we got promoted out of league one give me confidence that GJ can turn this around? Not really. I don't see it as that relevant to the job ahead. Seeing him field a consistent XI with some balance would do more on the confidence front for me personally. It's different for everyone but generally the average fan's confidence in the manager is declining slowly following the results and performances trend. The Cardiff game will have taken a giant chunk out of that confidence that may not be completely recoverable. The relationship with the fans will deteriorate faster when it can appear we're not being told the truth (allowing rumour to spread) or when there are plain digs made at the support.

Some people see a point of view that some things are wrong and need fixing, or that maybe GJ isn't able to fix them as negative - in essence that being critical can't be good for the club. On the contrary, it's absolutely essential provided it's constructive, because without recognising problems you can't fix them. It isn't constructive to be critical during a game but on a discussion forum it can be healthy and positive when it isn't dragged down into a slanging match of happy clappys vs moaners. If you think pressure from the fan isn't important - consider this: How long would we put up with a football club run like our local rivals is? Do you think the fact that they are less critical and put less pressure on helps their club? Yes there's been a great deal more criticism on OTIB recently and it's been more vociferous - but perhaps the people opposed to it would do well to look at how attempting to shout down every bit of criticism exacerbates it and polarizes everyone's views. If you want to be positive, great, be positive - don't be negative about the criticism

Even GJ's harshest critics want the best for the club, they just feel differently about how that is to be achieved.

Good post Nibor - balanced and well thought out.

The problem is that all too often opinions seem to be polarised. Your either pro Johnson or anti, and like the first world war, the opponents are dug in their trenches lobbing grenades at each other. For too many anti Johnson fans, those with a different view are labelled "happy clappers" and the assumption is made that they are all like the three monkeys ( see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil) but I don't think this is the case.

I'm not sure where I fit - you would probably categorise me in the "happy clapper" camp. However, I've been a supporter since '67, and although we have not been in the top 2 divisions for the majority of my time as a supporter, that does not mean I accept that, and am not ambitious for the club to progress further - hopefuly to the top level of the game. I also feel that too many fans ignore our history, not because it means we should accept our place, but because it indicates just what a hard task it is to get from where we are to where we want to be. You only have to look at our struggle to get out of league 1 to see that.

Also, contrary to what many of the so called anti Johnson brigade would have us believe, I and many like me do not believe that everything is rosy and that any problems are minor and can be easily ironed out. I do think that Steve L is closer to the problem than any of us. He knows Gary Johnson better than we do, both as an employee but also as a man. I am confident that he will have been asking the manager what issues have been affecting our form and results recently, but wil also have asked GJ to give his action plan for bringing things back on track. I am working on the assumption that especially following the Cardiff result, that if Steve L had the slightest doubt about GJ's plan or ability to make the plan work, then we would have a new manager by now.

I read a lot about needing an experienced manager at this level. Gary Johnson is experienced at this level, and from the time he first came here has shown his ability to sort out problems when his back is against the wall and those are attributes we know he has, and which he needs to demonstrate right now. My worry is if Johnson went ( and he could resign this week for all we know) who will replace him? It's not just a question of who we would like, it's about who is available and who would take on the job.

If Steve L has confidence I GJ being the man to run thigs around then that's good enough for me. However, I also accept that if things do not imtpove quickly or worsen , expecialy if we have another Cardiff type result, then there is likely to be no other option than changing the manager.

For all those calling for Johnson to go and now, my only question is at what point they would concede that Gary Johnson is still the right man for the job. I am not blindly loyal to GJ staying, and have doubts, as I mentioned, but what doubts do any of you have that changing manager might not improve things for the better? My worry is that too many have not thought beyond getting rid fo Johnson. It was the same at the end of Danny W's time here, people just wanted him gone and they didn't conceive that we could end up with a manager like BT and the mess we got into as a result.

You say that Johnson getting us out of league 1 does not fill you with confidence that he has wht it takes for what lies ahead. Bythis , I presume you mean that we need an experienced manager at this level, in particular one who knows what it takes to get promotion from the championship.

Danny Wilson has experience of taking a less fancied team into the prem and Ian Dowie took over a Palace team in 19th place in the table and took them to promotion in his first season in charge. Both tick the boxes, but would we be happy with either being appointed just now? I know I'm being a bit bloody minded, but it does illustrate my concern at what would come next if GJ left.

We all want the same thing - the best for this club. We all have slightly different opinion as to how this can best be acheived . The only way we will know who is right or wrong is when we have the benefit of hindsight, so in the meantime we should perhaps just respect those offering opinions, but continue to debate them without so many personal attacks. There is a part of me that almost wishes hat Gj had goe already, because the current situation is so devisive among fans.

In view of all that, it is probably best that the Chairman has the dilema of making the decisions about the club's future.

[i remember dickie rooks]

As you can tell from my user name, I have been watching City for a while. During this time, I have not learned to become an expert manager, player or coach (or even a 'better' fan than anyone else)

However, I have learned that getting fully behind your team during the match usually has a better effect on the players than getting on their backs.

[spudski]

Very eloquently put, i couldn't agree more with both posts.

[Roger Red Hat]

As you can tell from my user name, I have been watching City for a while. During this time, I have not learned to become an expert manager, player or coach (or even a 'better' fan than anyone else)

However, I have learned that getting fully behind your team during the match usually has a better effect on the players than getting on their backs.

Are people getting on the teams back at matches? Considering the crap that's dished up, the last minute concession of goals and the capitulation against Cardiff, the harranging of the team has been startlingly minimal.

[Nibor]

Good post Nibor - balanced and well thought out.

Thanks - and the same to you.

The problem is that all too often opinions seem to be polarised. Your either pro Johnson or anti, and like the first world war, the opponents are dug in their trenches lobbing grenades at each other. For too many anti Johnson fans, those with a different view are labelled "happy clappers" and the assumption is made that they are all like the three monkeys ( see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil) but I don't think this is the case.

Agree totally - there are very few posters who acknowledge both sides of the argument which doesn't help.

I'm not sure where I fit - you would probably categorise me in the "happy clapper" camp.

I wouldn't but I know what you mean - I am sure many would categorise me as a moaner and interestingly I'm sure that three or four years ago it would have been happy clapper.

I read a lot about needing an experienced manager at this level. Gary Johnson is experienced at this level, and from the time he first came here has shown his ability to sort out problems when his back is against the wall and those are attributes we know he has, and which he needs to demonstrate right now. My worry is if Johnson went ( and he could resign this week for all we know) who will replace him? It's not just a question of who we would like, it's about who is available and who would take on the job.

My suggestion would be that Steve Coppell would be a great and achievable candidate but I agree there is a risk in any change and there probably isn't much advantage in making one now. I'd give GJ more time first.

For all those calling for Johnson to go and now, my only question is at what point they would concede that Gary Johnson is still the right man for the job.

If our results and performances turn around and I start enjoying watching us consistently I'll be happy.

You say that Johnson getting us out of league 1 does not fill you with confidence that he has wht it takes for what lies ahead. Bythis , I presume you mean that we need an experienced manager at this level, in particular one who knows what it takes to get promotion from the championship.

Actually I don't really buy into the "we need an experienced manager at this level" idea. I just mean that the promotion from league one doesn't to me add weight to the view that GJ can take us further.

We all want the same thing - the best for this club. We all have slightly different opinion as to how this can best be acheived . The only way we will know who is right or wrong is when we have the benefit of hindsight, so in the meantime we should perhaps just respect those offering opinions, but continue to debate them without so many personal attacks. There is a part of me that almost wishes hat Gj had goe already, because the current situation is so devisive among fans.

Even in hindsight you can't know if you were right or wrong because only one of the options was actually tested, but the current state of divide between groups of fans and fans and the management is unhealthy as are the personal attacks.

In view of all that, it is probably best that the Chairman has the dilema of making the decisions about the club's future.

I do have massive respect for SL in what he's doing off the pitch. But bear in mind that SL voted for Pulis and appointed Tinnion. GJ was a very good appointment but that is one out of three. It's the most recent though so I'd be optimistic.

[spudski]

Are people getting on the teams back at matches? Considering the crap that's dished up, the last minute concession of goals and the capitulation against Cardiff, the harranging of the team has been startlingly minimal.

Well they certainly don't get behind the team anymore when we are down.

It's all so easy to shout and bawl at players and managers during a game. Often it's frustration and a knee jerk reaction. But does all this help the team on the pitch? All it does it is let off steam, for the certain individuals.

A bit of self control, thought and composure by some fans would help.

When the players are getting hammered, what is the point in shouting abuse?

Only encouragement and supporting the team will give a positive response...regardless of what we think of the manager, players or tactics. Whilst they are wearing a red shirt and on the pitch, they are BRISTOL CITY. Do we not Support Bristol City...through thick and thin,'til we die?

I had to go to Old Trafford last Saturday, for work. Portsmouth were getting nailed. But their support was superb. They didn't shut up supporting their team. They even got louder after conceding goals. No dumbies being thrown, no sulking,moaning or shouting abuse...just pure unadulterated support. A credit to their club.

[grove park city]

spudski's arguement seems to me to be summed up as:

Since we've historically been unsuccessful, we shouldn't expect any more than that and if we are doing better than we have in the past we should be content. Complaining is why we're not more successful and we're only really unhappy because we got to the playoff final and have unrealistic expectations. There are lots of bigger clubs in our league and we should be more accepting of our place. If we're not we'll lose the manager and the club will be worse off.

I don't think anybody would dispute we're historically unsuccessful, I see that as a piss poor reason to be content with our lot and I think we should always want the club to progress reasonably. I am not dismayed by the league position and I don't actually think many city fans are. I also don't think any City fans failed to recognise the playoff final for the massive over-achievement it was. I've not seen a single post on this forum complaining that we didn't match it the following season nor do I see anybody disputing that there are bigger clubs in this division.

However I believe there's massive potential in Bristol City FC. Bristol is a large and growing city, massive catchment, no real competition, it's also a rich economy. We have the new stadium plan going full steam. We have several players in the squad of very high quality. We have large financial investment by both us, the fans, as we spend millions on tickets and by our chairman who underwrites running us at a large loss. Yes there are clubs with more resources, not as many as some think but there are. There are few with more long term unrealised potential - if any.

I think we've every right to look to steadily go forward both in terms of entertainment and results. Not at a crazy pace, and not without hiccups; nobody's asking for miracles despite what some claim. Nobody expected us to immediately improve on the playoff final or even match it. I said at the start of the season that I'd be content with top half and happy if we had something to play for at the right end of the table until the last day. That hasn't changed and I don't think it's unrealistic.

The fact is however that for the last 18 months our results and performances have slowly and steadily gone backwards. The games particularly at home (which have a much bigger impact on the fans since more of them are there) have been far less entertaining and personally I've found it very frustrating this season to see a squad containing at least three of the best players in the division so woefully unbalanced. Although for me the league position isn't a concern the level of enjoyment has dropped massively because of the way we're playing and I think that's a very bad thing for the club.

Over that 18 months, GJ has been shown a lot of patience because of his first two full seasons which were very successful and he will be shown more and I'm sure will be in a job at least until the end of the season. But that patience is finite, it is finite at every football club in the world for every single manager. We have to start going forward on the field again and getting something back from the massively increased spending. To be brutal, previous success is utterly irrelevant - it's about whether there is likely to be success in the future and how to best achieve it.

Does the fact that we got promoted out of league one give me confidence that GJ can turn this around? Not really. I don't see it as that relevant to the job ahead. Seeing him field a consistent XI with some balance would do more on the confidence front for me personally. It's different for everyone but generally the average fan's confidence in the manager is declining slowly following the results and performances trend. The Cardiff game will have taken a giant chunk out of that confidence that may not be completely recoverable. The relationship with the fans will deteriorate faster when it can appear we're not being told the truth (allowing rumour to spread) or when there are plain digs made at the support.

Some people see a point of view that some things are wrong and need fixing, or that maybe GJ isn't able to fix them as negative - in essence that being critical can't be good for the club. On the contrary, it's absolutely essential provided it's constructive, because without recognising problems you can't fix them. It isn't constructive to be critical during a game but on a discussion forum it can be healthy and positive when it isn't dragged down into a slanging match of happy clappys vs moaners. If you think pressure from the fan isn't important - consider this: How long would we put up with a football club run like our local rivals is? Do you think the fact that they are less critical and put less pressure on helps their club? Yes there's been a great deal more criticism on OTIB recently and it's been more vociferous - but perhaps the people opposed to it would do well to look at how attempting to shout down every bit of criticism exacerbates it and polarizes everyone's views. If you want to be positive, great, be positive - don't be negative about the criticism

Even GJ's harshest critics want the best for the club, they just feel differently about how that is to be achieved.

By the ecky thump effing well spot on read this 3 times how you found the patience to sit and write that so clearly is beyond me,i have alway got so fed up with the well thats all your getting attitude shown season after season through various managers and worse of all completely inept boards . Our early history if maintained would at least of put us up with Wolves,Burnley,Forest ,Leeds,Bolton,Blackburn as it is we crashed out big time and the chance was lost .Now after years of middling management due to various poor decisions there is a chance of success off the pitch meaning tough choices on it ,the saying you can't make a omlette without breaking eggs comes to mind its obvious that certain players and some management can't cut it, so do you say well sorry but your out or do what we have normally done and bumble along saying well you did so well in the past have another 3 years ??????.... I don't expect to win every game or score a bucket of goals every match but this is just crap there is hardly any fight or passion on the pitch ,Gary Johnson has now slipped into the dead man walking pose by the dug out as for Millen well he should have gone with Tinman (still a legend as a truely gifted left footed midfielder) .As you rightly said no 1 is shouting we are a massive club we enjoyed the 1st season the play-offs were just unexpected ,i would call anyone a damn right liar to say they knew it was going to happen before a ball was kicked......The match day experiece is at this time dire said it before its more out of habit than looking forward to going , its easy to say i've had enough which some have done and once the cold turkey wears off its then that you don't bother unless its Newcastle or West Brom . His having a go at the fan's and tirades at certain players annoys me if any one wants to leave 10 minutes early its their choice ,i have not booed,walked out or shouted abuse at any 1 player .My main gripe is that he is making me not care i,m resigned to the pub being the highlight of the day and find it harder to leave for the kick off each time ,with so much in the balance behind the sceans why oh why is it such a shower of shite game after game its almost like a West Country tradition something good could happen so let's just F##k it up .....

[downendcity]

Thanks - and the same to you.

Agree totally - there are very few posters who acknowledge both sides of the argument which doesn't help.

I wouldn't but I know what you mean - I am sure many would categorise me as a moaner and interestingly I'm sure that three or four years ago it would have been happy clapper.

My suggestion would be that Steve Coppell would be a great and achievable candidate but I agree there is a risk in any change and there probably isn't much advantage in making one now. I'd give GJ more time first.

I wouldn't disagree, but wonder whether Coppell ahs the apetite for the job now. Also, I am more concerned at the options once to you have to look beyond Coppell.

If our results and performances turn around and I start enjoying watching us consistently I'll be happy.

My worry is that there are some who appear to want GJ out, come what may.

Actually I don't really buy into the "we need an experienced manager at this level" idea. I just mean that the promotion from league one doesn't to me add weight to the view that GJ can take us further.

I see you side stepped Wilson and Dowie as "experienced" options, who have proved they have what it takes to take a team up from the championship, i.e, take us further!

Even in hindsight you can't know if you were right or wrong because only one of the options was actually tested, but the current state of divide between groups of fans and fans and the management is unhealthy as are the personal attacks.

The whole situation is devisisve. Back to your earlier point, about few posters being prepared to acknowledge both sides of the argument. I think what you and I, and quite a few others realise, is that this is a pivotal time for the club, and the decison about he manager , one way or the other, could have massive implications for our future, especially iof we get it wrong. That is why I think many are resisting the knee jerk reaction of sacking the manager, but it does not mean that we rule it out completely. By comparisson. too many on the other side, appear to have already written off Gary Johnson's future at BCFC, and cannot see beyond bringing in anew manager immediately.

I do have massive respect for SL in what he's doing off the pitch. But bear in mind that SL voted for Pulis and appointed Tinnion. GJ was a very good appointment but that is one out of three. It's the most recent though so I'd be optimistic.

Who would have thought the Pulis would acheive what he is now though? I still believe that Tinnion's appointment was most expedient , given the circumstances at the time. With a squad just missing out on promotion, I am sure SL thought that even an inexperienced manager like BT couldn't cock it up from there. Once again, it is only with the benefitof hindsight, that errors of judgement are shown up.

[WellRedPhil]

Well they certainly don't get behind the team anymore when we are down.

It's all so easy to shout and bawl at players and managers during a game. Often it's frustration and a knee jerk reaction. But does all this help the team on the pitch? All it does it is let off steam, for the certain individuals.

A bit of self control, thought and composure by some fans would help.

When the players are getting hammered, what is the point in shouting abuse?

Only encouragement and supporting the team will give a positive response...regardless of what we think of the manager, players or tactics. Whilst they are wearing a red shirt and on the pitch, they are BRISTOL CITY. Do we not Support Bristol City...through thick and thin,'til we die?

I had to go to Old Trafford last Saturday, for work. Portsmouth were getting nailed. But their support was superb. They didn't shut up supporting their team. They even got louder after conceding goals. No dumbies being thrown, no sulking,moaning or shouting abuse...just pure unadulterated support. A credit to their club.

That is entirely different, should we be losing 5-0 at Old Trafford people would sing loud. Likewise if we were losing by that scoreline away at Newcastle, it would be similar. Do you ever attend away games? When we were 4-0 down at the Hawthornes people began to sing incredibly loudly and I'm not sure if I've ever seen City till I die sung so passionately. I also remember our lot made a good deal of noise when 3 down at Cardiff back in August, when it seemed as if the players were making no effort whatsoever that day. The fact people managed a few jokey songs in the EE at 6-0 down showed immense support against Cardiff, and why the f ** k should you sing loudly when heavily losing, they deserved all the abuse they got that day and were lucky they did not get more imo. Against Coventry I can see where you're coming from, as were were not losing heavily or anything but people are clearly bored and frustrated at our football and it is hard to sing hppy songs when feeling this way.