Lee Johnson

[Nibor]

Did you watch the Barnsley game ? I can guarantee he would do better than what we saw last night that's for sure. Probably not a long term solution but we haven't got too much time to turn things around from what I'm seeing... I'm hoping now Gary's gone he can play with a bit more freedom and a lot less pressure on him with some of the numb nuts down the Gate starting to treat him with the same respect as they do for any other player.

Yes, I watched the Barnsley game. He did ok. I also watched the last two seasons, where by and large he didn't.

I admire your optimism but cannot share it. If we want a creative midfielder, LJ is not the answer. He might sometimes do an ok job if you sacrifice a striker and play him in a three but the truth is he will not take us forward.

I'd rather play two more defensive midfielders and two out and out wide men in Rose and Adomah.

[Pete1975Legend]

Two wide men who will never see the ball because other midfielders can't pass!

[Monkeh]

LJ not effective in a 4-4-2? what planet are you one?

our promotion season we played 4-4-2 most of the time with Johnson in the middle result was we won or drew most games

Play-off final season 4-4-2 LJ in the middle until he got injured we won or drew most games Johnson injured the waste of space that is carle came in (who is struggling in the A league of all places) we went on the longest bad run of that season,

LJ in the team 2 10th place finishes

Last season LJ went out on loan and was out of the team result we struggled to 10th place

This season LJ makes one sub apperance when we're 2-0 down at home to Barnsley what happens game gets turned on its head and city get a fighting sprit and a 3-3 draw,

every time johnson is out of the side we struggle and that is a fact he is an unnoticed cog and if he wasn't gary johnson's son he would never get the stick he has got,

Granted the overated Hartley did little lee's job better but Lee is what we are missing in the middle he rarely gives the ball away he may not be a bx to box midfielder but he can pass the ball and keep a move going

If you can't see that then I suggest you try watching rugby because football isn't your strong point

[Betelgeuse]

I've always thought LJ was playing beyond his level in a top 10 championship team but the facts are now we are going backwards and are looking like a struggling team so its worth putting LJ in to see if it can improve because it can't get much worse! Its just a shame we never brought in a quality attacking centre mid to help push us on from a top 10 team to a top 6 team. Now we just need someone who can pass the ball and turn us from a relegation looking side to a mid table side! Football is great isn't it!

[Monkeh]

Nibor were at the game tuesday? you'd rather play two defensive midfielders and rose and adomah?

well thats what we did in the second halft tuesday the result was? thats right the worse performance from a Bristol City since tinnian,

the 6-0 home defeats against Donnie and Cardiff last season were better

[Betelgeuse]

Nibor were at the game tuesday? you'd rather play two defensive midfielders and rose and adomah?

well thats what we did in the second halft tuesday the result was? thats right the worse performance from a Bristol City since tinnian,

the 6-0 home defeats against Donnie and Cardiff last season were better

Wasn't Donny 5-2? I agree though tuesday was one of the worst games of football I have ever seen!

[Nibor]

LJ not effective in a 4-4-2? what planet are you one?

our promotion season we played 4-4-2 most of the time with Johnson in the middle result was we won or drew most games

Play-off final season 4-4-2 LJ in the middle until he got injured we won or drew most games Johnson injured the waste of space that is carle came in (who is struggling in the A league of all places) we went on the longest bad run of that season,

Not really true, go back and look. Much of the time in league one we played Russell and Skuse and Russell and Noble (and besides, that was league one and we're talking about the Championship). Much of the time in the playoff season we played 4411 with Noble in front of the midfield. We got worse results with LJ in the middle of a 442 than we did with other pairings in the middle of a 442 or playing 4411. That's not an opinion, it's a fact and you can verify it.

LJ in the team 2 10th place finishes

Last season LJ went out on loan and was out of the team result we struggled to 10th place

Absolute rubbish. WhenLJ went on loan we were in 12th place with 32 points from 24 games, 16 of which he'd played in. When he came back we were in 11th with 36 points from 27 games.

After GJ left, in our only good run of form which saved us from relegation, LJ made only substitute appearances.

This season LJ makes one sub apperance when we're 2-0 down at home to Barnsley what happens game gets turned on its head and city get a fighting sprit and a 3-3 draw,

We were one nil down when he came on. he wasn't involved in any of our three goals which were a keepers mistake, some individual excellence from Clarkson, and penalty thanks to an extremely clumsy challenge.

every time johnson is out of the side we struggle and that is a fact he is an unnoticed cog and if he wasn't gary johnson's son he would never get the stick he has got,

Granted the overated Hartley did little lee's job better but Lee is what we are missing in the middle he rarely gives the ball away he may not be a bx to box midfielder but he can pass the ball and keep a move going

I agree he got proportionally more stick than any other player because he was the manager's son but that is overstated - much of the stick comes from him bottling challenges which the city crowd LOATHE.

He has no defensive presence whatsoever. He does not create goals (not a single assist last season compared to Hartley's 6). He often puts the defence under increased pressure by taking the ball off them deep and facing the wrong way, turning into an oncoming challenge and so passing it backwards or sideways with an opponent bearing down on the recipient. His set pieces have not been effective since our playoff season. His strengths are that he does make himself available and he can jog around for 90 minutes, but on the evidence of the last two seasons you are MASSIVELY overrating what he brings to the side.

If you can't see that then I suggest you try watching rugby because football isn't your strong point

I'd suggest you need to pay more attention to the result of LJ being in possession and also try to base your opinions on facts not vague impressions.

Nibor were at the game tuesday? you'd rather play two defensive midfielders and rose and adomah?

well thats what we did in the second halft tuesday the result was? thats right the worse performance from a Bristol City since tinnian,

the 6-0 home defeats against Donnie and Cardiff last season were better

Yes, I was there on Tuesday night. Our absymal performance was down to horrendous defensive mistakes. They panicked and hoofed it.

Rose got some decent balls in when he came on, then for some inexplicable reason we took the striker most likely to do something with them off for a winger and moved the other winger up front.

Skuse and Elliott or Cisse in the middle of a 442 will be more effective that LJ paired with either of the three because if we do that our midfield will be a stroll for the opponents.

LJ doesn't help defend, he doesn't help the defence avoid panic either. I'd love to have an effective midfield general type to play in the middle but we don't and pretending LJ is one won't help one iota.

If we play 352 LJ might be worth a spot but that will be difficult as we don't have the wing backs.

Oh, and to suggest the 6-0 defeat against Cardiff and the 5-2 defeat by Doncaster were better performances is entirely ridiculous.

[kit]

Not really true, go back and look. Much of the time in league one we played Russell and Skuse and Russell and Noble (and besides, that was league one and we're talking about the Championship). Much of the time in the playoff season we played 4411 with Noble in front of the midfield. We got worse results with LJ in the middle of a 442 than we did with other pairings in the middle of a 442 or playing 4411. That's not an opinion, it's a fact and you can verify it.

Absolute rubbish. WhenLJ went on loan we were in 12th place with 32 points from 24 games, 16 of which he'd played in. When he came back we were in 11th with 36 points from 27 games.

After GJ left, in our only good run of form which saved us from relegation, LJ made only substitute appearances.

We were one nil down when he came on. he wasn't involved in any of our three goals which were a keepers mistake, some individual excellence from Clarkson, and penalty thanks to an extremely clumsy challenge.

I agree he got proportionally more stick than any other player because he was the manager's son but that is overstated - much of the stick comes from him bottling challenges which the city crowd LOATHE.

He has no defensive presence whatsoever. He does not create goals (not a single assist last season compared to Hartley's 6). He often puts the defence under increased pressure by taking the ball off them deep and facing the wrong way, turning into an oncoming challenge and so passing it backwards or sideways with an opponent bearing down on the recipient. His set pieces have not been effective since our playoff season. His strengths are that he does make himself available and he can jog around for 90 minutes, but on the evidence of the last two seasons you are MASSIVELY overrating what he brings to the side.

I'd suggest you need to pay more attention to the result of LJ being in possession and also try to base your opinions on facts not vague impressions.

Yes, I was there on Tuesday night. Our absymal performance was down to horrendous defensive mistakes. They panicked and hoofed it.

Rose got some decent balls in when he came on, then for some inexplicable reason we took the striker most likely to do something with them off for a winger and moved the other winger up front.

Skuse and Elliott or Cisse in the middle of a 442 will be more effective that LJ paired with either of the three because if we do that our midfield will be a stroll for the opponents.

LJ doesn't help defend, he doesn't help the defence avoid panic either. I'd love to have an effective midfield general type to play in the middle but we don't and pretending LJ is one won't help one iota.

If we play 352 LJ might be worth a spot but that will be difficult as we don't have the wing backs.

Oh, and to suggest the 6-0 defeat against Cardiff and the 5-2 defeat by Doncaster were better performances is entirely ridiculous.

Drivel

Drivel

Drivel

Half of what you are saying in your response there backs up why Johnson must come straight back in to the side.

We had a good run without Johnson in the side tail end of last season & when he was out on loan. True but we had Paul Hartley (I think he is quite creative).

We got promoted and didn't always play Johnson. True but Alex Russell played (he had a fair amount of Creativity).

We got to a play off final with Johnson as our creative player.

We had Elliot and Cisse playing in the middle with two wingers and were equally bad on Wednesday once it had changed. We played with Johnson for about 70 minutes against Barnsley and we played the best football all season - scoring the most goals all season - playing the furthest up the pitch all season.

We have never achieved anything playing with a midfield limited to the likes of Elliott, Cisse, Skuse. Who are decent enough players, but create nothing - saying that we make a midfield out of them and it will be fine is not based on facts, the fact is that we are more often than not going to get dominated in midfield because all they can do is defend, and not dominate the opponents midfield. Dominating a midfield is not only about winning tackles, its about playing in the opponents half rather than lumping hopeful balls up to helpless wingers and strikers.

Johnson is the best option we currently have, Williams probably the second - but he is out on loan. Either play them or go buy a replacement. Or we will be relegated. FACT.

[Robbored]

If we play 352 LJ might be worth a spot but that will be difficult as we don't have the wing backs.

I reckon 3-5-2 would be a better formation despite not having recognised 'wing backs'.

With Elliot and Cisse or Skuse playing deeper to give the back 3 some protection and possibly Lee Johnson or Clarkson playing behind the front two, there is still room for two wingers.

No reason why the wingers can't track back when the opposition are on the front foot.

Using two wingers in a 4-4-2 doesn't work, home or away. It definately didn't work at Ipswich or on Tuesday night. Its obvious that if Millen wants to play with two wingers he needs to make room for a playmaker. 3-5-2 is the answer imo.

[lager loud]

I reckon 3-5-2 would be a better formation despite not having recognised 'wing backs'.

With Elliot and Cisse or Skuse playing deeper to give the back 3 some protection and possibly Lee Johnson or Clarkson playing behind the front two, there is still room for two wingers.

No reason why the wingers can't track back when the opposition are on the front foot.

Using two wingers in a 4-4-2 doesn't work, home or away. It definately didn't work at Ipswich or on Tuesday night. Its obvious that if Millen wants to play with two wingers he needs to make room for a playmaker. 3-5-2 is the answer imo.

I'm not convinced 3-5-2 with Adomah and Rose as the wing backs would work. I think wing back in a 3-5-2 is one of the hardest positions to play, and that it works best with defenders who are decent going forward rather than more "conventional" wide midfielders doing the defensive bit - or at the very least with midfielders who have some real defensive instinct. So I believe that Ribeiro could do the job, and that McAllister has done it well at times.

But unless Rose and Adomah have some experience of this I think it might be disastrous, as they wouldn't have the instincts to spot danger and get back quickly enough. It's always difficult to play in an unfamiliar position (e.g. Skuse at right back on Tuesday) because you have to think about doing things that come instinctively in your usual position. So I don't believe that in practice it's as straightforward as you suggest for the wingers "to track back when the opposition are on the front foot". Bearing in mind the fact that Adomah and Rose have very little experience of playing Championship football, I think they need to develop their games without the added responsibility of playing what I guess is an unfamiliar role.

Added to which, Adomah is one of the few bright sparks in our team at the moment, doing a good job where he is. There's a risk that by changing his role we might lose some of the good stuff he's doing.

I'd agree that using two "chalk on their boots" wingers doesn't work well in a 4-4-2 - it's too easy for the opposition to pack the midfield and pass the ball through the middle. I'm not sure that Rose in particular is that sort of player, though. If he plays in something more like the McIndoe role - sometimes out wide, sometimes more narrow, helping out in the middle - I think that could work.

[Nibor]

Drivel

Drivel

Drivel

The first three paragraphs of my post are provable facts. You can go look on Soccerbase or football365. We averaged a significantly higher points per game with Noble in the side in the 4411 than without.

Half of what you are saying in your response there backs up why Johnson must come straight back in to the side.

Nope, not in the least. Not unless you make a very erroneous assumpion, see below:

We had a good run without Johnson in the side tail end of last season & when he was out on loan. True but we had Paul Hartley (I think he is quite creative).

We got promoted and didn't always play Johnson. True but Alex Russell played (he had a fair amount of Creativity).

Those are good reasons to play Paul Hartley or Alex Russell. Or perhaps even generalise them to be good reasons to play a creative player who can also defend, which both of those players could do.

We got to a play off final with Johnson as our creative player.

LJ got seven assists that season. He did take most of the set pieces and the division was the weakest we have seen it since being promoted.

He got two assists in 08/09.

He got zero assists in 09/10.

The stats are on the football league website.

The evidence suggests that he is not very creative now doesn't it?

So how exactly does that support playing him?

We had Elliot and Cisse playing in the middle with two wingers and were equally bad on Wednesday once it had changed. We played with Johnson for about 70 minutes against Barnsley and we played the best football all season - scoring the most goals all season - playing the furthest up the pitch all season.

It was Tuesday, the problems were largely in the DEFENCE and adding LJ is hardly likely to help there.

We rescued a point against a bloody awful Barnsley side thanks to three goals that LJ had no part in whatsoever.

We have never achieved anything playing with a midfield limited to the likes of Elliott, Cisse, Skuse. Who are decent enough players, but create nothing - saying that we make a midfield out of them and it will be fine is not based on facts, the fact is that we are more often than not going to get dominated in midfield because all they can do is defend, and not dominate the opponents midfield. Dominating a midfield is not only about winning tackles, its about playing in the opponents half rather than lumping hopeful balls up to helpless wingers and strikers.

Johnson is the best option we currently have, Williams probably the second - but he is out on loan. Either play them or go buy a replacement. Or we will be relegated. FACT.

Go out and buy a replacement, fine.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a fact and an opinion. Typing FACT at the end of your badly thought out view doesn't make it one I'm afraid.

My opinion is that LJ is too weak to play well in a 442 at this level based on watching most of the games he's played for us.

My opinion is that LJ is not actually a very creative player based on facts like the number of assists he got over the last two seasons.

I agree with you about dominating a midfield requiring us to keep possession in the opponents half, I do not see one shred of evidence that playing LJ would help us do that.

So let's not pretend he is the answer and instead use the midfield to break up play and keep the pressure on to force errors, and attack using the flanks where both Adomah and Rose look to be effective.

[Nibor]

I reckon 3-5-2 would be a better formation despite not having recognised 'wing backs'.

With Elliot and Cisse or Skuse playing deeper to give the back 3 some protection and possibly Lee Johnson or Clarkson playing behind the front two, there is still room for two wingers.

No reason why the wingers can't track back when the opposition are on the front foot.

There is actually. Namely that they are usually starting from behind the ball. You are extremely susceptible to breaks down the flanks particularly when the opposition have full backs that like to overlap.

352 works by expecting wing backs to do two jobs with just a little support from central midfield, allowing you to overload in the middle. I'm not convinced we can do it with the players at our disposal.

The only benefit I see is it gets Hunt and McAllister off the pitch.

Using two wingers in a 4-4-2 doesn't work, home or away. It definately didn't work at Ipswich or on Tuesday night. Its obvious that if Millen wants to play with two wingers he needs to make room for a playmaker. 3-5-2 is the answer imo.

It does work, you just have to do it properly. Look at Wolves in their promotion season, Reading in theirs. Plenty more examples than that.

You don't _have_ to have a designated playmaker, particularly if you can play with width and it helps as well to have a smart centre forward which I think Stead is.

If we had a player who could do that creative role well enough I would agree with trying to fit them in, but I don't think we do.

[jollycobblerred]

The first three paragraphs of my post are provable facts. You can go look on Soccerbase or football365. We averaged a significantly higher points per game with Noble in the side in the 4411 than without.

Nope, not in the least. Not unless you make a very erroneous assumpion, see below:

Those are good reasons to play Paul Hartley or Alex Russell. Or perhaps even generalise them to be good reasons to play a creative player who can also defend, which both of those players could do.

LJ got seven assists that season. He did take most of the set pieces and the division was the weakest we have seen it since being promoted.

He got two assists in 08/09.

He got zero assists in 09/10.

The stats are on the football league website.

The evidence suggests that he is not very creative now doesn't it?

So how exactly does that support playing him?

It was Tuesday, the problems were largely in the DEFENCE and adding LJ is hardly likely to help there.

We rescued a point against a bloody awful Barnsley side thanks to three goals that LJ had no part in whatsoever.

Go out and buy a replacement, fine.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a fact and an opinion. Typing FACT at the end of your badly thought out view doesn't make it one I'm afraid.

My opinion is that LJ is too weak to play well in a 442 at this level based on watching most of the games he's played for us.

My opinion is that LJ is not actually a very creative player based on facts like the number of assists he got over the last two seasons.

I agree with you about dominating a midfield requiring us to keep possession in the opponents half, I do not see one shred of evidence that playing LJ would help us do that.

So let's not pretend he is the answer and instead use the midfield to break up play and keep the pressure on to force errors, and attack using the flanks where both Adomah and Rose look to be effective.

what nibor said +lots. if only for his perfect grammar, punctuation, and comprehension.

[Pederho ll]

Well, to quote Gary Johnson when l asked him why he selects his son the response was "....because our stats show that on average he touches the ball 300 times a game, which allows us to keep the ball moving within our team, removing the need or temptation to knock it long on frequent occasions"

We all know that LJ has never offered many assists or goals, l don't need to consult a website to tell me that, what he brings to the team is ball retention, probing and a consistent outlet for our play. This is in stark contrast to our defenders knocking it long on a consistent basis as they have no outlet through the middle of the pitch.

Is LJ the best midfielder in the Championship, no of course not. Is he the best midfield option available to us, definitely.

[kit]

The first three paragraphs of my post are provable facts. You can go look on Soccerbase or football365. We averaged a significantly higher points per game with Noble in the side in the 4411 than without.

Nope, not in the least. Not unless you make a very erroneous assumpion, see below:

Those are good reasons to play Paul Hartley or Alex Russell. Or perhaps even generalise them to be good reasons to play a creative player who can also defend, which both of those players could do.

LJ got seven assists that season. He did take most of the set pieces and the division was the weakest we have seen it since being promoted.

He got two assists in 08/09.

He got zero assists in 09/10.

The stats are on the football league website.

The evidence suggests that he is not very creative now doesn't it?

So how exactly does that support playing him?

It was Tuesday, the problems were largely in the DEFENCE and adding LJ is hardly likely to help there.

We rescued a point against a bloody awful Barnsley side thanks to three goals that LJ had no part in whatsoever.

Go out and buy a replacement, fine.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a fact and an opinion. Typing FACT at the end of your badly thought out view doesn't make it one I'm afraid.

My opinion is that LJ is too weak to play well in a 442 at this level based on watching most of the games he's played for us.

My opinion is that LJ is not actually a very creative player based on facts like the number of assists he got over the last two seasons.

I agree with you about dominating a midfield requiring us to keep possession in the opponents half, I do not see one shred of evidence that playing LJ would help us do that.

So let's not pretend he is the answer and instead use the midfield to break up play and keep the pressure on to force errors, and attack using the flanks where both Adomah and Rose look to be effective.

I had a look at the stats on the football league website, and to say Johnsons lack of assits makes him not worth starting pretty much means that no centre midfielders anywhere in the world should play. It seems only wingers and forwards seem to get any sizeable number of assists, central midfielders being the odd exception not the rule in terms of high numbers of assists.

The stats on the premier league website show that over the last 7 season paul scholes has got 4,2,3,1,2,3 & 4 assists in 28,21,24.30.20,33 & 28 starts. That's about 1 assist every 10 games. I am now going to use that stat to prove he is clearly not a creative player. It is also widely thought that he is not great at defending. Sir Alex is mad to have been playing him all this time cos he adds nothing.

I don't think SKuse, Cisse, Elliot & Noble combined have had as many assists as Johnson has over the past 4/5 seasons. I am pretty sure that you could find stats showing that they don't make anywhere near the number off passes.

If a defence is constantly under pressure it is inevitably going to crack. If the opponents don't have possession then they will find it difficult to put a defencenunder pressure. I definately didn't see one shred of evidence that Skuse, Elliot or Cisse are capable of keeping possession of the ball in the oppositions half, there wasn't any evidence they could really keep hold of it in their own either.

The game against Barnsley up to the point that Johnson came on a "bloody awful" Barnsley side had been pretty much camped in our half as we struggled to get out of it. After he was on we actually held the ball a lot further up the pitch regardless of if Johnson actually playing the final ball or not, the fact that we were much closer to Barnsleys goal meant that we would be able to create chances.

[CliftonCliff]

I had a look at the stats on the football league website, and to say Johnsons lack of assits makes him not worth starting pretty much means that no centre midfielders anywhere in the world should play. It seems only wingers and forwards seem to get any sizeable number of assists, central midfielders being the odd exception not the rule in terms of high numbers of assists.

The stats on the premier league website show that over the last 7 season paul scholes has got 4,2,3,1,2,3 & 4 assists in 28,21,24.30.20,33 & 28 starts. That's about 1 assist every 10 games. I am now going to use that stat to prove he is clearly not a creative player. It is also widely thought that he is not great at defending. Sir Alex is mad to have been playing him all this time cos he adds nothing.

I don't think SKuse, Cisse, Elliot & Noble combined have had as many assists as Johnson has over the past 4/5 seasons. I am pretty sure that you could find stats showing that they don't make anywhere near the number off passes.

If a defence is constantly under pressure it is inevitably going to crack. If the opponents don't have possession then they will find it difficult to put a defencenunder pressure. I definately didn't see one shred of evidence that Skuse, Elliot or Cisse are capable of keeping possession of the ball in the oppositions half, there wasn't any evidence they could really keep hold of it in their own either.

The game against Barnsley up to the point that Johnson came on a "bloody awful" Barnsley side had been pretty much camped in our half as we struggled to get out of it. After he was on we actually held the ball a lot further up the pitch regardless of if Johnson actually playing the final ball or not, the fact that we were much closer to Barnsleys goal meant that we would be able to create chances.

Well done to you for a smart piece of research. Scholes has been lauded recently as one of the best midfielders in Europe, even at this late stage in his career, and his assists-to-games-started ratio is revealing. It shows, among other things, that we harbour some highly unrealistic expectations of the mythical creative playmaker who is going to spray killer passes around and put strikers in on goal on a regular basis.

I wouldn't necessarily want LJ to be a fixture in the side in the way that he once was, but I would certainly be seriously considering him at the moment to remedy a serious deficiency that was evident on Tuesday, given that the reality is that Hartley has gone and we don't currently have another one like him. Horses for courses. The debate should not be about whether LJ will be "creative" in terms of assists (he won't), but whether he will help us keep the bloody ball for more than about two consecutive passes, which he probably will. We were so shockingly inept against Watford in terms of this most basic requirement of the game that I wouldn't hesitate to include a player whose worst critics concede can at least link play, keep the ball moving and help retain possession.

Step one, get hold of the round white thing and keep it for a while, preferably on the green stuff and not up in the sky. Then you can start to think about trying to do something useful with it. Not rocket science.

[GJS_Cider_Army]

Im with REDHOPE on this one !!!! I would personally put johnno and Elliot in CM and move cisse back to DC, we certainly need to drop the idea of playing 2 defence minded midfielders especially at home.