Midfield.....what Midfield?

[SC_Red]

He did. They was a number of games, some very big games, where Gary would decide to "rest" him in favour of LJ. Criminal

which ones?

[The Gasbuster]

In my mind, Paul Hartley was the best central midfielder we've had here in decades. I've got to think way back to Gerry Gow to remember a BCFC midfielder of similar footballing calibre.

Don't forget Gary Shelton, Gobbers !! Oh for a player like him now to run our midfield....

[Mr Mosquito]

which ones?

I most definately remember Gary Johnson playing his son in preference to Paul Hartley. I remember one enlightened supporter in the Williams Stand shouting at Gary Johnson "get your **ck**g useless son off the pitch and bring on Hartley".Gary Johnson must have heard loud and clear because he did swap his son for Hartley soon after.

[SC_Red]

I most definately remember Gary Johnson playing his son in preference to Paul Hartley. I remember one enlightened supporter in the Williams Stand shouting at Gary Johnson "get your **ck**g useless son off the pitch and bring on Hartley".Gary Johnson must have heard loud and clear because he did swap his son for Hartley soon after.

yeah that'll be why he made the change. Good to hear such lovely supoport from the stands.

anyway surely you can remember who we played. We already know it was a very big game.

nobody knows why managers make decisions. Maybe Gary Johnson decided Hartley needed resting at times during the season so he was fit for all the games in the run in. We just dont know but to suggest Johnson picked Lee over Hartley on "SO MANY occasions" is clearly nonsense.

[mjd]

must agree thought the midfield was not effective , steed kept telling them to move up quicker to help him but they seem to reluctent to go forward. Also jcr was hastled off the ball to much, so kept lossing the ball

[RedRock]

Ah, the Academy. A critic from Day 1 here alongside Ashton Yate (where's he gone?). A now proven White Elephant.

The solution? Close down the Academy and spend 50% setting up a reserve side in a competitive league and 50% on a top grade chief scout and assistant.

Two years and the squad will be transformed.

[Tales From The Front]

Best thread on this board for a very long time.

I'm glad more and more people are seeing this area of the pitch as THE problem. For to long under Johnson it was striker, striker, striker, and Millen desperatly needs to address this now.

We need to get back to a short passing game in my view or at least vary the style a bit, as more than one of you have said, control the middle control the game...its the only chance we have to give our quality service starved strikeforce a chance.

Just a couple of observations a mate of mine said yesterday that Rose would be better at left back, after thinking about it I agree, has put stronger peerformances defending and I beleive that was where he was playing when he scored THAT goal for spurs, secondly move Cisse in the middle got to be worth a try...but obviously my preference is quality new blood, but as we all know we need to move quite a few on first.

[Donald]

yeah that'll be why he made the change. Good to hear such lovely supoport from the stands.

anyway surely you can remember who we played. We already know it was a very big game.

nobody knows why managers make decisions. Maybe Gary Johnson decided Hartley needed resting at times during the season so he was fit for all the games in the run in. We just dont know but to suggest Johnson picked Lee over Hartley on "SO MANY occasions" is clearly nonsense.

Newcastle away - Hartley dropped to bench for no reason for favour of LJ, Best and most experienced player who was used to big games and left out and then followed one of the most defensive performances in history. Pathetic - but in line with Gary's policy and letting his lad play in the biggest stadiums - up there with the wembley farce.

Sheffield Wednesday at Home - benched LJ has a stinker and gets dragged off at half time for hartley

Barnsley - after a blinder in the previous game gets dropped again for LJ, making a mockery of Garys "don't change a winning team"

These are just 3 I recall off top of my head

Oh and leicester and West Brom at home, another 2, after a poor game against Leicester he managed to keep his place against west brom, no wonder Hartley got fed up, johnson wasn't fit to polish his boots

It was farcical that with players like Hartley and Sno at the club, that he even got any games in the middle, was also a joke that a quality player like Sno also got pushed out wide so that LJ could play in the middle. But hey, i suppose it's decisions like that which explain why Johnson is unemployed

[SC_Red]

Newcastle away - Hartley dropped to bench for no reason for favour of LJ, Best and most experienced player who was used to big games and left out and then followed one of the most defensive performances in history. Pathetic - but in line with Gary's policy and letting his lad play in the biggest stadiums - up there with the wembley farce.

Sheffield Wednesday at Home - benched LJ has a stinker and gets dragged off at half time for hartley

Barnsley - after a blinder in the previous game gets dropped again for LJ, making a mockery of Garys "don't change a winning team"

These are just 3 I recall off top of my head

Oh and leicester and West Brom at home, another 2, after a poor game against Leicester he managed to keep his place against west brom, no wonder Hartley got fed up, johnson wasn't fit to polish his boots

It was farcical that with players like Hartley and Sno at the club, that he even got any games in the middle, was also a joke that a quality player like Sno also got pushed out wide so that LJ could play in the middle. But hey, i suppose it's decisions like that which explain why Johnson is unemployed

we drew away at Newcastle - hard earnt point against the league leaders away. You dont know if it was for no reason. Thats just your opinion. He could of had a very good reason we know nothing about.

LJ was taken off for playing poorly according to you against Sheff Wed proving he would change it if Lee wasnt doing what was asked of him.

Barnsley away we won. Leicester at home we should of won but lost concenrtration after scoring late. West Brom Lee scored the winner.

Wembley - Lee didnt start and only came on because Orr got injured and we had no rightback on the bench.

Its decisions like that that saw us finish 4th, 10th and 10th in the championship. Right now I hope Keith Millen makes similar decisions to get us to that sort of position.

[ashtonvale]

we drew away at Newcastle - hard earnt point against the league leaders away. You dont know if it was for no reason. Thats just your opinion. He could of had a very good reason we know nothing about.

LJ was taken off for playing poorly according to you against Sheff Wed proving he would change it if Lee wasnt doing what was asked of him.

Barnsley away we won. Leicester at home we should of won but lost concenrtration after scoring late. West Brom Lee scored the winner.

Wembley - Lee didnt start and only came on because Orr got injured and we had no rightback on the bench.

Its decisions like that that saw us finish 4th, 10th and 10th in the championship. Right now I hope Keith Millen makes similar decisions to get us to that sort of position.

Lets be fair though, last season, finishing 10th.. was nothing to do with Johnson.. it was the end of season turn around after he'd gone.... prior to that I could only see one outcome and that was a relegation fight with players that didn't want to play for him..

[SC_Red]

Lets be fair though, last season, finishing 10th.. was nothing to do with Johnson.. it was the end of season turn around after he'd gone.... prior to that I could only see one outcome and that was a relegation fight with players that didn't want to play for him..

well it wasnt nothing to do with him because he was manager for 37 of the games but yes it was time for him to go and Millen did really well when he came in to get the results he did.

I dont think we'd of got relegated but we were heading in the wrong direction and Johnsons time had run it's course. Lansdown got the timing of that decision spot on.

[Portland Bill]

I might suggest, contary to the views of Lee Johnson lovers such as Riaz, that if Lee's Dad had played Hartley instead of his beloved son on so many occasions last season, we might have had Hartley for this season.

I would go so far as to say that GJ would still probably be our manager if he had played Hartley every week last season.

A player who was on a Wednesday playing for Scotland but not on a Saturday for us, Beggers belief really.

[Mr Mosquito]

Ah, the Academy. A critic from Day 1 here alongside Ashton Yate (where's he gone?). A now proven White Elephant.

The solution? Close down the Academy and spend 50% setting up a reserve side in a competitive league and 50% on a top grade chief scout and assistant.

Two years and the squad will be transformed.

ashton yate posts on the BCFC ziderheads website. Like me - at one stage - he could not post without a time delay due to his posts needing moderator approval. At another time he could not even view this message board. ashton yate was right about many aspects of this club, alas he's been persecuted for his viewpoints and writing style. I don't see any MaloneFM posts on here either - not that I'm bothered by that.

[Mr Mosquito]

I would go so far as to say that GJ would still probably be our manager if he had played Hartley every week last season.

A player who was on a Wednesday playing for Scotland but not on a Saturday for us, Beggers belief really.

It was utterly stupid of Gary Johnson to leave Paul Hartley on the bench. I remember many posts on here highlighting that viewpoint at the time. BCFC did well, as a Championship club, attracting such a great player to start with and to not play him at every opportunity was ridiculous.

[bcfcnick]

I think if Keith Millen is given time to produce then we'll have a very good team. In Pitman he's shown that he likes to go for a young player who is on the way up and will increase in value. Caulker and Rose have been good loan signings as well.

As for Albert is it coincidence that his worst games have been playing with Cole Skuse at right-back. Ribeiro likes to get forward and Murray scored a mass of goals when Carey played right back and Louis plays in the forwards nicely whereas Cole frustrates as he has the ability and pace to be much more of an attacking threat.

[NickJ]

I would go so far as to say that GJ would still probably be our manager if he had played Hartley every week last season.

A player who was on a Wednesday playing for Scotland but not on a Saturday for us, Beggers belief really.

Agree with that.

Had GJ not continually kept playing his son in front of Hartley and others the whole squad would have been happier, no question, and persuading Hartley to stay would have been so much easier. Come the end Hartley was so pissed off he was never going to stay.

GJ could have been a great and popular City manager for many years but unwittingly sacrificied himself to give his lad a few more games.

The fact we got a result at Newcastle and Barnsley is not the point. The fact is Johnson should never have played in front of Hartley.

After a run of about 6 losing games with Sno and Elliott of all people played wide to accomodate Johnson in the middle, with Hartley omitted for the final game of that run, GJ finally came to his senses and played Hartley at home to Plymouth on a Tuesday night with Johnson omitted. We battered Plymouth and at the time I thought GJ had seen the light. I will never forget turning up at Oakwell on the following Saturday and seeing Johnson warming up on the pitch and Hartley with his tracksuit on. That was when GJ invented the "rotation" policy. Disgraceful.

[Mr Mosquito]

Agree with that.

Had GJ not continually kept playing his son in front of Hartley and others the whole squad would have been happier, no question, and persuading Hartley to stay would have been so much easier. Come the end Hartley was so pissed off he was never going to stay.

GJ could have been a great and popular City manager for many years but unwittingly sacrificied himself to give his lad a few more games.

The fact we got a result at Newcastle and Barnsley is not the point. The fact is Johnson should never have played in front of Hartley.

After a run of about 6 losing games with Sno and Elliott of all people played wide to accomodate Johnson in the middle, with Hartley omitted for the final game of that run, GJ finally came to his senses and played Hartley at home to Plymouth on a Tuesday night with Johnson omitted. We battered Plymouth and at the time I thought GJ had seen the light. I will never forget turning up at Oakwell on the following Saturday and seeing Johnson warming up on the pitch and Hartley with his tracksuit on. That was when GJ invented the "rotation" policy. Disgraceful.

Gary Johnson's 'pride' in his son probably cost us a play off place as well as his job last season. As Marcelus Wallis rightly said to Butch in Pulp Fiction "Pride only hurts, f+ck pride".

[Donald]

we drew away at Newcastle - hard earnt point against the league leaders away. You dont know if it was for no reason. Thats just your opinion. He could of had a very good reason we know nothing about.

LJ was taken off for playing poorly according to you against Sheff Wed proving he would change it if Lee wasnt doing what was asked of him.

Barnsley away we won. Leicester at home we should of won but lost concenrtration after scoring late. West Brom Lee scored the winner.

Wembley - Lee didnt start and only came on because Orr got injured and we had no rightback on the bench.

Its decisions like that that saw us finish 4th, 10th and 10th in the championship. Right now I hope Keith Millen makes similar decisions to get us to that sort of position.

Yes, but how much better would it have been if he'd given our best midfielder a start, someone whom could tackle and create and let's not forget take BLOODY set pieces, somebody directly result in goals.....suppose LJ is the master of the dink.

Why did Lee play at wembley? I'll tell you, because daddy let a family decision get in the way a more sensible decision, he didn't have a right back, but had Carey on the pictch and a defender on the bench, instead he weakened a on form midfield of Noble, Carle, Elliott and McIndoe, by moving Marv to right back in order to let his boy play at wembley. Marv at right back!!!! madness and nepostism. How many times for City has Marv played at Right back, before or since? NEVER.........in the end though it's ruined his career and his only chance to get to the Prem for the sake of his boy.

Lost count of the amount of midfielders who have been shafted at City by Gary, Noble, Russell, Carle, Williams, Sno, Hartley.....all players who either wrongly lost their place or were never played correctly in the team in favour of a lesser player.

Still, all history now, whole midfield was crap yesterday and I don't want to single out player, him and JCR especially were shocking

[Donald]

Agree with that.

Had GJ not continually kept playing his son in front of Hartley and others the whole squad would have been happier, no question, and persuading Hartley to stay would have been so much easier. Come the end Hartley was so pissed off he was never going to stay.

GJ could have been a great and popular City manager for many years but unwittingly sacrificied himself to give his lad a few more games.

The fact we got a result at Newcastle and Barnsley is not the point. The fact is Johnson should never have played in front of Hartley.

After a run of about 6 losing games with Sno and Elliott of all people played wide to accomodate Johnson in the middle, with Hartley omitted for the final game of that run, GJ finally came to his senses and played Hartley at home to Plymouth on a Tuesday night with Johnson omitted. We battered Plymouth and at the time I thought GJ had seen the light. I will never forget turning up at Oakwell on the following Saturday and seeing Johnson warming up on the pitch and Hartley with his tracksuit on. That was when GJ invented the "rotation" policy. Disgraceful.

Well said, Funny how Hartley was the only ever player to be subject to it......Carry similar age....never a issue, Dele Adebloa, similar age and had even turned down a contract, rotation never a issue.

Was almost comical yesterday when he tried to defend himself against nepotism on live tv, and felt he "got away with it"

[Mr Mosquito]

Yes, but how much better would it have been if he'd given our best midfielder a start, someone whom could tackle and create and let's not forget take BLOODY set pieces, somebody directly result in goals.....suppose LJ is the master of the dink.

Why did Lee play at wembley? I'll tell you, because daddy let a family decision get in the way a more sensible decision, he didn't have a right back, but had Carey on the pictch and a defender on the bench, instead he weakened a on form midfield of Noble, Carle, Elliott and McIndoe, by moving Marv to right back in order to let his boy play at wembley. Marv at right back!!!! madness and nepostism. How many times for City has Marv played at Right back, before or since? NEVER.........in the end though it's ruined his career and his only chance to get to the Prem for the sake of his boy.

Lost count of the amount of midfielders who have been shafted at City by Gary, Noble, Russell, Carle, Williams, Sno, Hartley.....all players who either wrongly lost their place or were never played correctly in the team in favour of a lesser player.

Still, all history now, whole midfield was crap yesterday and I don't want to single out player, him and JCR especially were shocking

Brilliant post Sir, it's always good to cover old ground to remind ourselves of why Gary Johnson had to go. Like you wrote in your original post, Keith Millen can't be to blame for the state we're now in. Keith Millen has had to pick up the pieces of the crap midfield as left by Johnson and Copout. If Millen can get that midfield sorted in the January transfer window we should avoid relegation - if nothing's done about it we'll be in a relegation scrap for sure.

[dezgimed]

2 points.

JCR for all his critics, RETAINS the ball and keeps posession, this is so important.

We need 2 full backs who will get forward. We will not do a thing with Skuse and Tanga refusing to cross the halfway line, simply need an attacking outlet from them, as all good teams have.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Paul Hartley feeding exquisite through balls to Maynard at the end of last season was delightful to watch. If only we could get a similar calibre central midfielder to feed Stead and Pitman - hat tricks from those players would surely follow.

Yup, key game where it was that I recall- the 2-1 v Middlesborough when the latter were a better side than now. In both cases Hartley through to Maynard, great stuff.

[Mr Popodopolous]

nobody knows why managers make decisions. Maybe Gary Johnson decided Hartley needed resting at times during the season so he was fit for all the games in the run in.

True enough, didn't Hartley had some kind of issue with fitness at times? He wasn't the youngest so perhaps a case of rotating the pack.

[Mr Mosquito]

Yup, key game where it was that I recall- the 2-1 v Middlesborough when the latter were a better side than now. In both cases Hartley through to Maynard, great stuff.

Excellent example, Hartley through to Maynard with Maynard running on the left side of the pitch toward the East End - superb rasping shots on both occasions giving the 'boro goalie no chance.

[Alex_BCFC]

Whilst he wasn't amazing, Hartley was still decent for us and is definately much better than what we have now in midfield. We do need to replace him.

[BCAGFC]

Just watched Robson's goal from saturday again, WHERE WAS OUR CENTRAL MIDFIELD???????, where was Marv, where was LJ?.

He ran straight through midfield into our penalty area without a challenge.

BCAGFC

[Rednready]

I'm getting tired of all this Hartley was god stuff

According to ESPN he had all of 6 assists for the entirity of last season.

We are still playing hoofball, and lacking ideas and not scoring, much as we were last season., Huge difference. not

The myth that we were some how fighters or battlers when he played is smashed by performances in the 6-0 drubbing by Cardiff and other games.

I wont deny he had skill or added a touch of class to the team, but his overall contribution was rather diminished and not as brilliant as it should be compared to how others 'remember it'

Rumours about him being homesick and his family were all over the shop long before he left, its no surprise he did go and he didnt exactly set the world on fire down here with Millwall, early in his career either

Regarding the 'free' transfer there are a number of reasons as to how it could of worked including a non promotion clause, high wages issues, number of games played triggering a new contract (us not wanting to take up the option) and so on and so as to why he was let go. (or you could believe he was one of the 3 who accosted GJ/SL during after Plymouth. and SL didnt want him at the club)

Now I appreciate that we have no decent midfield now, but it is something we have struggled with since before GJ came to the club and hasnt really been addressed. When things are 'fine' we seem to do okay, but more often then not it isnt okay and hasnt been for a long long time, heck the centre mid being rubbish is so long term we have had Carey playing there in the past.

With regards to what we have got, what about shifting some one with decent distribution there or in the hole. So Clarkson, Riberio (if he ever going to be fit again) Stead , JCR (maybe?) Admoah ( even the two irish lads, why not, got nothing to lose_or so on just in front of the compliment of 63 billion defensive mids we seem intent on playing and see if things can go forward from there.

The manager needs to make do with what he has got, and if that means experimenting then so be it. We have a huge squad and just adding more layers at the moment will not solve the issue, it will just mask it until the next issue comes along

Hartley had 6 assists, correct !

Compared to LJ who had 0.

In fact LJ has 0 assists this season, 0 assists last season and just 2 the previous season. That same season our fullback McAllister had 4 assists whilst Orr and Brian Wilson each nad 3 assists each. Statistics show we need better, or at least give someone else in the club a chance. I am inclined to believe that Milly and Wiggles would promote a player who showed promise. These players play against each other every week on the training ground, if they are better than other squad members, they will get their chance.

[Riaz]

LJ - most over discussed city player in history, and today had a mare again, doesn't shoot when free to, doesnt create enough and gives away needless balls. (great at passing back to defence though) just not good enough constantly at this level.

Please you must not critisise Lee Johnson . He is idolised by idiots with very high academic qualifications such as Riaz and therefore must have had wonderful game.

The fact that I and many others thought he is garbage is not understood by these academic Johnson lovers.

I might suggest, contary to the views of Lee Johnson lovers such as Riaz, that if Lee's Dad had played Hartley instead of his beloved son on so many occasions last season, we might have had Hartley for this season.

Are you obsessed with me?

You can buy me a drink in BS3 next game if you like - but thats all it would be i'm afraid.

Oh and by the way - I am desperate for us to sign someone in LJ's position - Its vital I feel and its on of the weakest area's in the team.

But do you think Lee Johnson has been our worse midfielder this season??

[Riaz]

Bloody hell - Paul Hartley is seriously over-rated on here.

Decent player, but was'nt amazing.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm getting tired of all this Hartley was god stuff

According to ESPN he had all of 6 assists for the entirity of last season.

We are still playing hoofball, and lacking ideas and not scoring, much as we were last season., Huge difference. not

The myth that we were some how fighters or battlers when he played is smashed by performances in the 6-0 drubbing by Cardiff and other games.

I wont deny he had skill or added a touch of class to the team, but his overall contribution was rather diminished and not as brilliant as it should be compared to how others 'remember it'

Rumours about him being homesick and his family were all over the shop long before he left, its no surprise he did go and he didnt exactly set the world on fire down here with Millwall, early in his career either

Regarding the 'free' transfer there are a number of reasons as to how it could of worked including a non promotion clause, high wages issues, number of games played triggering a new contract (us not wanting to take up the option) and so on and so as to why he was let go. (or you could believe he was one of the 3 who accosted GJ/SL during after Plymouth. and SL didnt want him at the club)

Now I appreciate that we have no decent midfield now, but it is something we have struggled with since before GJ came to the club and hasnt really been addressed. When things are 'fine' we seem to do okay, but more often then not it isnt okay and hasnt been for a long long time, heck the centre mid being rubbish is so long term we have had Carey playing there in the past.

With regards to what we have got, what about shifting some one with decent distribution there or in the hole. So Clarkson, Riberio (if he ever going to be fit again) Stead , JCR (maybe?) Admoah ( even the two irish lads, why not, got nothing to lose_or so on just in front of the compliment of 63 billion defensive mids we seem intent on playing and see if things can go forward from there.

The manager needs to make do with what he has got, and if that means experimenting then so be it. We have a huge squad and just adding more layers at the moment will not solve the issue, it will just mask it until the next issue comes along

5 goals and 6 assists- not world beating granted but not bad either. Stats don't always tell the whole story though it is also about composure on the ball, in tight spaces and controlling a midfield. Can we honestly say our current central midfielders do this?

By way of comparison- that is better than Elliott, Skuse and Johnson combined last year- they produced the grand total of 4 goals and 4 assists!