The Forum...

[spudski]

...I'm positive the BEP base all their interviews with KM and BCFC, with discussions posted on here.

After the recent Norwich game, we have spoken about KM's tactics. And low an dbehold he's defending his tactics today.

There is definately a common thread, where discussions on here, become the topic of discussion with the BEP.

Here's today's defense... I agree with the majority of what he say's, but it still doesn't account for the poor quality of possesion and passing ability our players have. All very interesting...

Keith Millen denies Bristol City play in a negative way

BRISTOL City boss Keith Millen has launched a vigorous defence of the tactics he believes have been responsible for saving the club from relegation this season.

Rooted in the bottom half of the Championship table for much of what has been a difficult campaign for staff, players and supporters alike, City have only recently moved clear of trouble, winning five of their last eight games to dispel the prospect of an embittered fight against the drop.

In his first season as manager, Millen deserves credit for having transformed the club's fortunes on the field.

Yet despite his achievement, the Londoner has been attacked in some quarters for what his critics describe as "negative" tactics.

Millen disagrees, however, pointing to the team's dramatic improvement since February and insisting the ends fully justify the means.

He said: "We set-up and play that way, because it gets the best out of the individuals available to us.

"If you look at the players on the pitch, I think most people will agree they are playing to their strengths and are all in their best positions. As a manager, you have to do that.

"I cannot ask players to play out of position or do things they are no good at. Those lads who are playing at the moment are performing consistently well because they are being asked to do what they are good at.

"People say we play within a negative shape, but I disagree with that. We are solid out of possession and get men behind the ball, but we can turn defence into attack very quickly when we spring from that shape.

"If you look around the Championship, you will see that a lot of teams play this way, most of them quite successfully.

"You cannot afford to be wide open in a 4-2-4 formation when attacking, because teams at this level will punish you. That is why we go 4-5-1 out of possession and look to be bold when we turn the ball over.

"If you look at the goals we have scored recently, it is certainly not a negative tactic. We've shown this shape gives you more freedom to drive forward when you get the ball."

City's recent upturn in fortunes has been forged upon a rigidly disciplined formation, which has involved David Clarkson playing in a withdrawn position behind a lone striker and the unspectacular, yet effective, Kalifa Cisse operating in a midfield holding role, from where he offers the back-four increased protection and security.

Millen said: "We are solid and Cisse, without a doubt, has made a big difference in that holding midfield role. Earlier in the season, teams were coming through the middle of us, especially in games at Ashton Gate, and we were conceding far too many goals.

"That had been a problem in previous seasons as well and it was something that had to be addressed.

"Cisse has come in and helped shore us up in the middle of the park and that, in turn, has freed up Marvin Elliott to get forward and support the strikers, something he likes and is very good at.

"Similarly, David Clarkson has been playing recently because he works very hard for the team from a deeper position. His strengths are not with his back to goal and a big centre-half up against him.

"It's a case of looking at the players you have available and then finding a way to get the best out of them. I make no apology for that."

He added: "I feel there is a better balance to the side now. The right footers are on the right side, the left footers are on the left and the midfielders and defenders are in their best positions.

"It's not always a case of picking the best individuals. Sometimes, it is more important to have the right blend and that is what we have had over the last seven or eight games."

[chinapig]

A spirited and well argued case from Keith with which I would not disagree in principle. But Norwich did in fact come through the middle of us (ask Hoolahan and Lansbury). We still have a tendency to part like the Red Sea at times, especially against long balls forward. Defensive overhaul still required I think.

[spudski]

Playing 2 wingers is our problem. Hense teams going through our middle. But as KM says, he can only play to the strengths of the players available. Can't wait for us to get some quality in and some more options.

[Alex_BCFC]

According to Robbored we haven't been negative (in fact quite the opposite). Yet Millen is having to come out and defend our negative tactics.

I don't think he will get away with being so negative next season.

[nebristolred]

Playing 2 wingers is our problem. Hense teams going through our middle. But as KM says, he can only play to the strengths of the players available. Can't wait for us to get some quality in and some more options.

What do you suggest? Almost all teams play with 2 wingers, it's clearly doable.

[Slave to the rhythm]

Playing 2 wingers is our problem. Hense teams going through our middle. But as KM says, he can only play to the strengths of the players available. Can't wait for us to get some quality in and some more options.

Think you may have a long wait. Still got to reduce that bloated wage bill first.

[spudski]

What do you suggest? Almost all teams play with 2 wingers, it's clearly doable.

Almost all teams play with two wingers....Really?

[Monkeh]

to be fair we needed to start winning and to do this we had to be ugly but there are some teams that you can't do this against Swansea and Norwich being two of them due to the height of their back four,

This is Millen's failing he fails to see his tactics not working and does nothing to change it until ether half time or we're 1 or 2 nil down,

Thats what I'm angry about and I'm sure many other feel the same thats why we can't see him taking the club forward as he's too slow to react to a situation and he's got away with it simply because his name doesn't have the initals GJ,

Lansdown said we'd gone backwards and unless the man can start seeing things that 15000 people can see inside ashton gate then he's never going to be the man to take us forward

It also says alot if he's having to come out and defend himself as it means the crowd are starting to turn against him much like they did with Johnson last season

I sitll feel this is Brian Tinnian all over again

[bcfcas1]

The BEP have most definitely been on OTIB - in the paper today:

"Often quick to leap to judgement, Bristol City supporters have, up until now, been tardy in their appreciation of Kalifa Cisse's qualities"

[GrahamC]

to be fair we needed to start winning and to do this we had to be ugly but there are some teams that you can't do this against Swansea and Norwich being two of them due to the height of their back four,

This is Millen's failing he fails to see his tactics not working and does nothing to change it until ether half time or we're 1 or 2 nil down,

Thats what I'm angry about and I'm sure many other feel the same thats why we can't see him taking the club forward as he's too slow to react to a situation and he's got away with it simply because his name doesn't have the initals GJ,

Lansdown said we'd gone backwards and unless the man can start seeing things that 15000 people can see inside ashton gate then he's never going to be the man to take us forward

It also says alot if he's having to come out and defend himself as it means the crowd are starting to turn against him much like they did with Johnson last season

I sitll feel this is Brian Tinnion all over again

Really?

I do think as time passes there is a complete amnesia about where we were then and where we are now.

Tinnion went when we were in the bottom four of the division below, his legacy was the likes of Dave Partridge, Grant Smith and Matt Heywood, plus to be fair to him, Brooker and Lita.

I don't think many City fans were ever really convinced that Tinnion made the step up to being a manager, whereas Millen, let's not forget, one division up from that, stabilised us last season and after a very dodgy start, has done likewise this season, too.

We are now in The Championship, where we are a bottom half team in terms of gates and even with SL's largesse, around a half way side in terms of budget.

Millen's rationale with regard to tactics was to stop sides walking through the middle of our midfield (Swansea, Middlesboro), hence Cisse for Lee Johnson and Clarkson instead of Pitman. You may see it as negative, I see it as pragmatic and even when badly outplayed at Norwich we were 2 minutes away from an undeserved point.

I cannot see into the future so have no idea whether Millen is the longer term answer but feel he certainly deserves his first pre season and summer transfer window for us to find out.

[SC_Red]

The BEP have most definitely been on OTIB - in the paper today:

"Often quick to leap to judgement, Bristol City supporters have, up until now, been tardy in their appreciation of Kalifa Cisse's qualities"

slow to appreciate him?

he's only been playing regularly in midfield for 8 games

[GrahamC]

The BEP have most definitely been on OTIB - in the paper today:

"Often quick to leap to judgement, Bristol City supporters have, up until now, been tardy in their appreciation of Kalifa Cisse's qualities"

I'm sure Stockhausen constructs most of his "stories" from here, and that quote if correct is, to be honest, utter horseshit.

Some City fans probably took a while to appreciate Cisse but I can think of several posters (Ole, for one) who were saying from day one he was quality and a mate who saw all the English pre season games said he was our best player.

In truth there is no reason to read what is written in the BEP on City any more, it is poorly written, very often factually incorrect and regularly with a snide comment inserted by a "Brentford" supporter with zero understanding of the history of our club.

[Monkeh]

Really?

I do think as time passes there is a complete amnesia about where we were then and where we are now.

Tinnion went when we were in the bottom four of the division below, his legacy was the likes of Dave Partridge, Grant Smith and Matt Heywood, plus to be fair to him, Brooker and Lita.

I don't think many City fans were ever really convinced that Tinnion made the step up to being a manager, whereas Millen, let's not forget, one division up from that, stabilised us last season and after a very dodgy start, has done likewise this season, too.

We are now in The Championship, where we are a bottom half team in terms of gates and even with SL's largesse, around a half way side in terms of budget.

Millen's rationale with regard to tactics was to stop sides walking through the middle of our midfield (Swansea, Middlesboro), hence Cisse for Lee Johnson and Clarkson instead of Pitman. You may see it as negative, I see it as pragmatic and even when badly outplayed at Norwich we were 2 minutes away from an undeserved point.

I cannot see into the future so have no idea whether Millen is the longer term answer but feel he certainly deserves his first pre season and summer transfer window for us to find out.

Thats funny the goals norwich scored came from players walking through the middle the pen they one was from the ball being given away in the middle, Portsmouth scored by walking through the middle as did Covenrty

many fans arent convinced by millen ether so your just highlighting my point I know many fans who are staying away becasue of this,

But you ssem to be happy with god awful football and the team going backwards I apploud you for that,

I like many other are not happy and the sooner this season is over the better and I can bet you now that if we have another poor start next season (i hope for the love of god we don';t) fans are going to be less forgiving then this season

[spudski]

What crosses my mind though, is who is KM defending his tactics to? The fans or football critics?

What fans has he heard voicing their concerns? I can only think on here...

I noticed though, that the Sky commentators were quiet negative in their views about his tactics, although they praised when he changed them.

I see his predicament, and what he is trying to achieve, with the players at his disposal, but like many have said, he seems too slow to change when it's going wrong. But in saying that...who have we got on the bench that is good enough at this level to change things. Pitman is the only one imho.

The rest of the season will be very much like the last few games imho. Teams will know we play with two very wide players. They will exploit us down the middle and beyond the fullbacks. You have to feel for Elliot and Cisse, they are going to have their work cut out.

Funnily, I can JCR being used in Midfield more.

[Monkeh]

What crosses my mind though, is who is KM defending his tactics to? The fans or football critics?

What fans has he heard voicing their concerns? I can only think on here...

I noticed though, that the Sky commentators were quiet negative in their views about his tactics, although they praised when he changed them.

I see his predicament, and what he is trying to achieve, with the players at his disposal, but like many have said, he seems too slow to change when it's going wrong. But in saying that...who have we got on the bench that is good enough at this level to change things. Pitman is the only one imho.

The rest of the season will be very much like the last few games imho. Teams will know we play with two very wide players. They will exploit us down the middle and beyond the fullbacks. You have to feel for Elliot and Cisse, they are going to have their work cut out.

Funnily, I can JCR being used in Midfield more.

He has been fantastic coming off the bench and doing that role clarkson has been doing,

But we're at home tomorrow and I don't want us to soak up and try and hit a team on the break I want us to attack from the start like the Cardiff game,

Most our fans only see home games and they have been a farce this season we've been poor in all but 3 which is the major reason why I like so many others have been so critical,

I did go to coventry and I thought we were poor and Keef agreed by the sounds of his post match interview but we took our chances, I also witnessed the middlesborough game where we played very well,

But home is a joke and I can honestly say I only enjoyed the Cardiff Reading and Portsmouth game,

Thats where the problems lay, if we had Gary Johnsons home form (think we only ever lost 3 a season under him) we would be 10 points better off and be looking at the play-offs

There is somthing wrong at the gate fans seem disintrested players don't want to give 100% and the manager seems blind when we're being out played,

We get that right and then maybe Millen might just start to convince more people like me

[havanatopia]

You cannot argue with Millies tactics these past few matches because we have been winning but I am not so sure he is correct when he says he has been positioning his players in their correct positions. He also seems to hint, once more, in his comment about needing to play to each man's strengths at an inherited squad. That's how it could be read anyway which for me is nonsense. I keep saying he is far better off not saying anything and he did that for a while. As soon as we have a defeat he somehow sees the need to come out and say something and for me puts his foot in it. Millie... Keep it to yourself squire.

[spudski]

You cannot argue with Millies tactics these past few matches because we have been winning but I am not so sure he is correct when he says he has been positioning his players in their correct positions. He also seems to hint, once more, in his comment about needing to play to each man's strengths at an inherited squad. That's how it could be read anyway which for me is nonsense. I keep saying he is far better off not saying anything and he did that for a while. As soon as we have a defeat he somehow sees the need to come out and say something and for me puts his foot in it. Millie... Keep it to yourself squire.

I don't think the defeat was the problem. It was the manner of it. Also our winning run of four games was great, but it was dire to watch. Very poor quality.

There will always be those who will follow through thick and thin, but watching City at the moment is painful. It's not a great advert for football. And yes, I know it's all about survival at the moment...so it is a catch 22.

I'll go tomorrow, looking forward to having a beer with mates, rather than actually watching the game.

I look around the ground and see a sea of bored faces. Hardly a smile ever. I've not known it so dull for ages.

[Randy Marsh]

I'm sure Stockhausen constructs most of his "stories" from here, and that quote if correct is, to be honest, utter horseshit.

Did you see the reaction to Jordan Spence after Monday night?

BEP got that accusation right.

[Oops]

Playing 2 wingers is our problem. Hense teams going through our middle. But as KM says, he can only play to the strengths of the players available. Can't wait for us to get some quality in and some more options.

The wingers are supposed to "tuck in" when the opposition have the ball. Whether they actually do is open to debate. We also tend to defend far too deep, backing off until they're 30 yards out and leaving a hell of a lot of space between the back four and the midfield. If they pushed up just 10 yards it would leave the midfield less exposed.

Maybe.

[Donald]

I don't think the defeat was the problem. It was the manner of it. Also our winning run of four games was great, but it was dire to watch. Very poor quality.

There will always be those who will follow through thick and thin, but watching City at the moment is painful. It's not a great advert for football. And yes, I know it's all about survival at the moment...so it is a catch 22.

I'll go tomorrow, looking forward to having a beer with mates, rather than actually watching the game.

I look around the ground and see a sea of bored faces. Hardly a smile ever. I've not known it so dull for ages.

you obviously missed the last 2 seasons then

[Monkeh]

you obviously missed the last 2 seasons then

the last 2 seasons we only lost 3 at home where as this season we've lost 7 atmospere has been here in the last 2 seasons this year theres been none

[nebristolred]

Almost all teams play with two wingers....Really?

Yes.. one on the left, one on the right, am I missing something?

[spudski]

Yes.. one on the left, one on the right, am I missing something?

I think you may be mistaking wingers with Right midfield and Left midfield. Name teams that play with two recognised outright wingers.

[nebristolred]

I recognise there's a difference but assumed that on here they were pretty much the same thing. I wouldn't say we play with "wingers" in that sense though. Adomah is hardly in the Cristiano Ronaldo role.

[spudski]

I recognise there's a difference but assumed that on here they were pretty much the same thing. I wouldn't say we play with "wingers" in that sense though. Adomah is hardly in the Cristiano Ronaldo role.

You've completely lost me mate...Wingers are wingers...midfielders are midfielders...What role do you think Ronaldo plays...A winger?

[Monkeh]

You've completely lost me mate...Wingers are wingers...midfielders are midfielders...What role do you think Ronaldo plays...A winger?

he players more of a wide right striker then midfielder or winger,

Albert is a winger who can play up front if need be

[chipdawg]

All this talk of whether teams with wingers and no wingers being succesful against us is somewhat redundent; we've been beaten by teams with width this season and we've been beaten by teams without width. Norwich, for example, play with no width whatsoever. Hoolahan is given an entirely free role at the head of what is nominally a diamond, with Surman and Crofts tucking in behind him and Fox behind them. The only time the play goes wide is if Hoolahan choose to go there or a ball is played into the channel for Holt to chase (very slowly). Admittedly, their third came from us losing the ball to Surman wide right, but in general they stuck to the middle third of the pitch almost religiously. The reason their tactics work is because they were high-energy, closing down all the time when they lost the ball- not allowing us to get the ball wide so we could play to our strengths. Basically, they did their homework and we don't appear to have done. We'd have been far better playing a 4-3-3 and asking Cisse, Marv and Clarkson/Woolford to do the number on their midfield that they did on ours

Most other teams, it has to be said, rely on pace and width; Cardiff, Millwall, Watford off the top of my head are all teams who've played with width and pac, got behind or inside our fullback and done the damage there. What Millen should be given credit for is finding a way to combat this type of play, while he should be criticised for not recognising that it wouldn't work against Norwich. Personally i just think Norwich are a better team than us and it wouldn't have mattered what the tactics were

At the end of the day, we found ourselves in a position where we were having to fight for points against teams who're more confident and feature more quality than ourselves. It was never going to pretty

[Robbored]

the end of the day, we found ourselves in a position where we were having to fight for points against teams who're more confident and feature more quality than ourselves. It was never going to pretty

Spot on.

Some fans forget that after such a poor start it was destined to be a tough season and Millen has gone about gaining points by getting the best out of the resources available to him. The style of play is the perfect example of just that. Millen has done what was necessary.

It hasn't been pretty but has enabled to City to get fairly clear of the drop zone. The end justify the means.

I doubt very much after Millen has had chance to change and enhance the squad over the summer that we'll see the same style next season.

[spudski]

All this talk of whether teams with wingers and no wingers being succesful against us is somewhat redundent; we've been beaten by teams with width this season and we've been beaten by teams without width. Norwich, for example, play with no width whatsoever. Hoolahan is given an entirely free role at the head of what is nominally a diamond, with Surman and Crofts tucking in behind him and Fox behind them. The only time the play goes wide is if Hoolahan choose to go there or a ball is played into the channel for Holt to chase (very slowly). Admittedly, their third came from us losing the ball to Surman wide right, but in general they stuck to the middle third of the pitch almost religiously. The reason their tactics work is because they were high-energy, closing down all the time when they lost the ball- not allowing us to get the ball wide so we could play to our strengths. Basically, they did their homework and we don't appear to have done. We'd have been far better playing a 4-3-3 and asking Cisse, Marv and Clarkson/Woolford to do the number on their midfield that they did on ours

Most other teams, it has to be said, rely on pace and width; Cardiff, Millwall, Watford off the top of my head are all teams who've played with width and pac, got behind or inside our fullback and done the damage there. What Millen should be given credit for is finding a way to combat this type of play, while he should be criticised for not recognising that it wouldn't work against Norwich. Personally i just think Norwich are a better team than us and it wouldn't have mattered what the tactics were

At the end of the day, we found ourselves in a position where we were having to fight for points against teams who're more confident and feature more quality than ourselves. It was never going to pretty

You've completely miunderstood the thread. It's not about teams playing with wingers against us. It's about US playing with two out and out wingers. Hence why Km has come out and defended his tactics, by also praising Cisse for breaking up attacks coming at us down the middle.

[The Bard]

Really?

I do think as time passes there is a complete amnesia about where we were then and where we are now.

Tinnion went when we were in the bottom four of the division below, his legacy was the likes of Dave Partridge, Grant Smith and Matt Heywood, plus to be fair to him, Brooker and Lita.

I don't think many City fans were ever really convinced that Tinnion made the step up to being a manager, whereas Millen, let's not forget, one division up from that, stabilised us last season and after a very dodgy start, has done likewise this season, too.

We are now in The Championship, where we are a bottom half team in terms of gates and even with SL's largesse, around a half way side in terms of budget.

Millen's rationale with regard to tactics was to stop sides walking through the middle of our midfield (Swansea, Middlesboro), hence Cisse for Lee Johnson and Clarkson instead of Pitman. You may see it as negative, I see it as pragmatic and even when badly outplayed at Norwich we were 2 minutes away from an undeserved point.

I cannot see into the future so have no idea whether Millen is the longer term answer but feel he certainly deserves his first pre season and summer transfer window for us to find out.

Absolutely. Tinnion took over a side that lost a play off final, and left it in the bottom 4 of a much worse league. He had no experience of management at all. Millen has kept us up in a higher league that is widely recognised as being ruthless. If Millen can get a playmaker and some better defenders, we'll be a top 6 side.