Carey

[Red-Robbo]

I would argue that three of the back four or four of the back five need to be replaced. The amount of goals and mistakes these players make are costing us big time. Trouble is, we brought in a new keeper a new right back and a new centre back last summer and apart from David James, none of them can be deemed a success, which proves how hard it is to get decent players.

I'm not sure it could be argued that David James was much of a "success" today. For, £780,000 a year, I expect a goalie who might be able to kick or throw to our players and as for the spilled free kick...

[spudski]

I thought Carey put his heart and soul into todays game, but unfortunately as has been said, his legs have gone.

He started the game by needlessly giving fouls away. One led to the first goal.

The second goal, was purely down to him being skinned in the box. He couldn't stay on his feet and shield the attacker away, so chose to lunge out, and took the players legs, a clear penalty.

The third again...loose defending.

100% effort by the lad, and occassionally some nice touches... but clearly not good enough anymore.

[The Gasbuster]

I thought JCR had a blinder today, if he could produce that dispaly on regular basis then no probs

Head and shoulders above anybody else in the first half. But his shooting was woeful.

[GrahamC]

Millen said last week that the performances of certain players were "moving them out of his future plans", on the evidence of today's team selection that presumably meant Damion Stewart.

Let's hope he re-considers his decision about retaining Carey then, because as this season has shown he isn't going to contribute sufficiently in 2011/12 to justify getting another contract and no-one else of our current defenders (Nyatanga, Stewart, Fontaine, McAllister, Ribeiro, Wilson and er...Hunt) is out of contract, meaning very little space to make changes.

[spudski]

Head and shoulders above anybody else in the first half. But his shooting was woeful.

With a little bit of composure at the vital moment, and JCR could become a real threat. But he lets all his good work go to waste too often. He's miles better than Woolford at the moment though.

JCR often reminds me of a fly caught in an upside down pint pot. Buzzing around in all directions, no one knows which way he's going to go, including himself....

[Nibor]

Head and shoulders above anybody else in the first half. But his shooting was woeful.

He had absolutely zero effect on the game in the first half. Every time he got the ball he gave it away to no advantage. Every cross went out of play or to a defender, every shot was shit.

Does it matter how successfully he can dribble in a straight line then pull a simple trick to cut inside if it's completely ineffective?

[steviestevieneville]

I agree louis was poor today,but for all you slagging him off i ask the question. Have any of you ever played the game at any level because i have and know full well that after being out for a few weeks you lose match sharpness i.e your touch goes and a bit of awareness. This is even worse with a centre half as you have nowhere to hide. Keith didn't have much choice but to play him (i presume Stewart is injured). He could of moved Spence inside and put Skuse right back but who would of played centre mid ? Johnson ? so for god sake get a proper take on things before commenting or just don't bother.

[Lack of Action Man]

i have and know full well that after being out for a few weeks you lose match sharpness i.e your touch goes and a bit of awareness

As was the case with Stead to a certain degree, but Stead has age and ability on his side which enables him to make up for a lack of fitness/awareness.

Carey is aging and his talent will diminish with age (it's inevitable).

[Chappers]

I think that Carey still has a role to play for one more season, but playing him today was of no benefit to anybody. Apparently he will need a few games to get fully match fit, perfect for our games in mid-May!

[Red-Robbo]

I agree louis was poor today,but for all you slagging him off i ask the question. Have any of you ever played the game at any level because i have and know full well that after being out for a few weeks you lose match sharpness i.e your touch goes and a bit of awareness. This is even worse with a centre half as you have nowhere to hide. Keith didn't have much choice but to play him (i presume Stewart is injured). He could of moved Spence inside and put Skuse right back but who would of played centre mid ? Johnson ? so for god sake get a proper take on things before commenting or just don't bother.

Or he could have played Wilson perhaps??

Actually, Louis wasn't too dreadful overall but he made three crashing errors that cost us a point. They utterly negated his work for the rest of the 95 minutes.

[CiderHider]

Think he deserves another year, can't look at this 1 game surely?, Carey deserves more support from the fans imhotbh.

A new season, a new Carey, new feetm fresh for the challange, he'll be there

[foghornred]

What a stupid post our best defender comes back after facturing his skull makes one mistake and its time to ship him out,

He will be with us for a while yet and will go on to break Ateyo's record.

[REDOXO]

What a stupid post our best defender comes back after facturing his skull makes one mistake and its time to ship him out,

He will be with us for a while yet and will go on to break Ateyo's record.

Im not sure he is our best defender, however I agree with the thrust of your post

I would not have played Louis today and the young lad on the bench must be thinking will I ever get a chance. I am very much a Millen supporter, I was pre Coppell and I will not change that, however I dont think Louis going straight in was the best decission that could have been made....nevertheless hindsight is of course 20-20

I predicted on a thread several weeks ago Louis would be offered a contract (probably on less lucrative terms) but a contract nonetheless. louis can fit in multiple positions along the back and is the captain after all. I suspect many of his duties next season will be motivational and involve coaching however to build a successful club to support the City of Bristol we need a strong set of local boys/men and Carey fits into that mould, which will inspire others to come through our ranks!....Thats has nothing to do with sentiment its just about using what you have available to build a better team and better club!

[Mighty Squirrel Kingdom]

James was to blame for the first (not the first time he's spilled the ball from a dead ball situation this season), the penalty was a joke because as soon as the Forest player got into the area the only place he was going was down and I didn't really see the third because the people in front of me had just come back from the bog.

Having said that, I don't think Louis should have been on the pitch today but kudos to him for coming back after such a potentially serious injury.

Anyway, we need a brand new back four otherwise we're going to have real problems next season. McAllister is too old, not fast enough and leaves far too much space on the left flank, usually because he gets drawn out of position really easily. Nyatanga looked absolutely terrified whenever he got the ball today, Louis was out of sorts to say the least and Jordan Spence isn't the answer to anyone's problems.

At times today none of them had any idea what to do with Robert Earnshaw.

I don't think we'll be relegated in 2011/12 but it might be a far less comfortable end to the season than this one was...and by 'comfortable' I mean being poor without having to worry about the prospect Carlisle on a Tuesday night.

[chinapig]

Im not sure he is our best defender, however I agree with the thrust of your post

I would not have played Louis today and the young lad on the bench must be thinking will I ever get a chance. I am very much a Millen supporter, I was pre Coppell and I will not change that, however I dont think Louis going straight in was the best decission that could have been made....nevertheless hindsight is of course 20-20

I predicted on a thread several weeks ago Louis would be offered a contract (probably on less lucrative terms) but a contract nonetheless. louis can fit in multiple positions along the back and is the captain after all. I suspect many of his duties next season will be motivational and involve coaching however to build a successful club to support the City of Bristol we need a strong set of local boys/men and Carey fits into that mould, which will inspire others to come through our ranks!....Thats has nothing to do with sentiment its just about using what you have available to build a better team and better club!

Do our finances allow the luxury of having a player to hang around the dressing room being motivational? There is often little sign of anybody being motivated or doing any motivating anyway whether Louis is around or not. We did as much with Murray, giving a year's playing contract knowing he would not be playing (at least not for us). He's a great guy too but what did that achieve? Is Louis qualified and just how many coaches do we need? If we need yet more why not bring in fresh blood with new ideas; somebody not stuck in a rut and in their comfort zone? For me either he is fit and good enough to be at least challenging for a place (and he is nowhere near as fit or good as he was imo) or we should call it a day. We are in danger of becoming a retirement home for ex-players otherwise. Time to stop living in the past I feel (meaning the likes of McAllister, Johnson etc should move on too).

[REDOXO]

Do our finances allow the luxury of having a player to hang around the dressing room being motivational?

As they are negotiating a contract the answer I would suggest is clear!

There is often little sign of anybody being motivated or doing any motivating anyway whether Louis is around or not. We did as much with Murray, giving a year's playing contract knowing he would not be playing (at least not for us). He's a great guy too but what did that achieve?

I dont know, however as you have stated this has happend before I would suggest the club thought it worthwhile!

Is Louis qualified and just how many coaches do we need?

I dont know maybe another one!

If we need yet more why not bring in fresh blood with new ideas; somebody not stuck in a rut and in their comfort zone?

Because clubs are built from within...The Liverpol Bootroom. Man United Since Ferguson has relied on people that are died in the wool club men. The examples are endless of the really good clubs building in this way!

For me either he is fit and good enough to be at least challenging for a place (and he is nowhere near as fit or good as he was imo) or we should call it a day. We are in danger of becoming a retirement home for ex-players otherwise. Time to stop living in the past I feel (meaning the likes of McAllister, Johnson etc should move on too)

LJ, McAlister are not relevant in this context, however I suspect he (Carey) will be challenging for a place but finding himself on the bench more than in the first team!

[/ quote]

[chinapig]

This same Liverpool Bootroom whos last graduate afaik was one Roy Evans, and they have had until Kenny ( again) have had no managers from that system for at least 15 years. And the Same Man United production line like Carlos Quieroz or Archie Knox ( his first assistant) or Steve McLaren or so on. Again iirc only Brian Kidd and Jimmy Ryan have been promoted from within.

But yeah its a valid point or something?

Thanks for pointing this out. Houllier of course saw off Roy Evans and Benitez culled the rest (and they now have 2 ex-Barcelona guys in charge of their Academy after Steve Heighway's "retirement"). Queiroz is an interesting case in that Ferguson explicitly brought him in because he wanted new ideas that weren't forthcoming in house, particularly as far as European football went. It was Queiroz who persuaded him for instance that 4-4-2 left Utd too open defensively. These days of course the tendency is to play a 4-2-3-1 or variations of it, which may not have happened without the fresh input . The point being (and the reason I am against jobs for life for every ex-City lag on the grounds that they are good guys) that if you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got. And what we've always got is (mostly) mediocrity.

[CliftonCliff]

Thanks for pointing this out. Houllier of course saw off Roy Evans and Benitez culled the rest (and they now have 2 ex-Barcelona guys in charge of their Academy after Steve Heighway's "retirement"). Queiroz is an interesting case in that Ferguson explicitly brought him in because he wanted new ideas that weren't forthcoming in house, particularly as far as European football went. It was Queiroz who persuaded him for instance that 4-4-2 left Utd too open defensively. These days of course the tendency is to play a 4-2-3-1 or variations of it, which may not have happened without the fresh input . The point being (and the reason I am against jobs for life for every ex-City lag on the grounds that they are good guys) that if you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got. And what we've always got is (mostly) mediocrity.

This is an interesting and civilised debate (and that's a rarity in itself).

On the one hand, the old Liverpool boot room model of continuity via the grooming of the manager-elect while the serving manager is still in post and knows who his successor will be. I know this has not been the case at Anfield for many years now, but I have always felt their decline started when they were forced to depart from this way of running the club by the sudden and unexpected resignation of Dalgleish for health/stress reasons. While it lasted, this model brought phenomenal success; I was an admirer of their way of doing things and thought City should try to emulate it, being only too aware of what frequent managerial change, and the associated upheaval, can do to a club. (It's ironic, by the way, that they have had to turn to Kenny to try to get things back on track after the worst spell in their history for a long time).

On the other hand, I'd have to agree your final point is also a very sound one and has a lot to recommend it. In that context, I wonder how you viewed the appointment of Wigley as number two. KM specifically said at the time that he was aware of the dangers of being too cosy and inward-looking and wanted fresh input from someone from outside the club, which struck me as quite a mature and open stance and a far cry from the keep-it-in-the-family approach under the previous manager. (I am discounting Coppell here for obvious reasons).

[simonwheeler]

My two penny worth is that in Carey, McAllister and Calamity we have 3 defenders with a combined age of 112 years, yes that is ONE HUNDRED and TWELVE!!! Now I know there is a view that you need experience but this is pushing the word to its absolute extreme?

In Carey's and McAllister's case there is no doubting that they have been loyal and faithful servants, as for Calamity I am afraid I have my own views.

Also it is my understanding that Millen has already verbally told Carey he will get yet one more season (And whilst I appreciate that he as probably far from match fit yesterday and if Stewart / Cisse had been fit, would probably not even have been on the bench) but on yesterdays performance the years have certainly caught up with all three??? Also it appears that if we believe what has been said it is Calamity's decision "if" he wants to stay for another season - whoever negotiated that clause needs a very sharp reality check with a hot poker!!!

But this all comes to my major concern as a season ticket purchaser for yet another season are these three really THE FUTURE.......................

Personally I think that they are all well past their sell by dates and "if" as it appears they will be gracing us with their presence at Ashton next season then it will not be to the clubs benefit but just solely to pad out their already extensive pension funds.

NOTHING has ever been won in Football by sentiment.

[chinapig]

This is an interesting and civilised debate (and that's a rarity in itself).

On the one hand, the old Liverpool boot room model of continuity via the grooming of the manager-elect while the serving manager is still in post and knows who his successor will be. I know this has not been the case at Anfield for many years now, but I have always felt their decline started when they were forced to depart from this way of running the club by the sudden and unexpected resignation of Dalgleish for health/stress reasons. While it lasted, this model brought phenomenal success; I was an admirer of their way of doing things and thought City should try to emulate it, being only too aware of what frequent managerial change, and the associated upheaval, can do to a club. (It's ironic, by the way, that they have had to turn to Kenny to try to get things back on track after the worst spell in their history for a long time).

On the other hand, I'd have to agree your final point is also a very sound one and has a lot to recommend it. In that context, I wonder how you viewed the appointment of Wigley as number two. KM specifically said at the time that he was aware of the dangers of being too cosy and inward-looking and wanted fresh input from someone from outside the club, which struck me as quite a mature and open stance and a far cry from the keep-it-in-the-family approach under the previous manager. (I am discounting Coppell here for obvious reasons).

The thing about the Liverpool boot room of course is that each new manager had learned from a top manager; from Shankly to Paisley to Fagin to Moran to Dalglish. Not quite the same at Ashton Gate somehow. It really went wrong with Souness imo and is now an out of date model in a constantly changing global game.

To answer your question I was very much in favour of Wigley's appointment, for the reasons Keith gave. We don't hear from him, which is a shame, but we can be sure he played a key part in getting Caulker et al at the very least. I would like to see this approach extended to the Academy, another job that seems to be filled on a buggins turn basis. I would pay top dollar to bring in somebody of real quality from outside. On my more "imaginative" days, whatever his age, I would even consider offering Dario Gradi a couple of years to sort it out and tell him to name his price; bit silly perhaps but something needs doing.

[chinapig]

My two penny worth is that in Carey, McAllister and Calamity we have 3 defenders with a combined age of 112 years, yes that is ONE HUNDRED and TWELVE!!! Now I know there is a view that you need experience but this is pushing the word to its absolute extreme?

In Carey's and McAllister's case there is no doubting that they have been loyal and faithful servants, as for Calamity I am afraid I have my own views.

Also it is my understanding that Millen has already verbally told Carey he will get yet one more season (And whilst I appreciate that he as probably far from match fit yesterday and if Stewart / Cisse had been fit, would probably not even have been on the bench) but on yesterdays performance the years have certainly caught up with all three??? Also it appears that if we believe what has been said it is Calamity's decision "if" he wants to stay for another season - whoever negotiated that clause needs a very sharp reality check with a hot poker!!!

But this all comes to my major concern as a season ticket purchaser for yet another season are these three really THE FUTURE.......................

Personally I think that they are all well past their sell by dates and "if" as it appears they will be gracing us with their presence at Ashton next season then it will not be to the clubs benefit but just solely to pad out their already extensive pension funds.

NOTHING has ever been won in Football by sentiment.

For far too long we signed ageing players who were looking for just such a boost to their pot; now we are doing it for players already here. Now we are by and large looking for hungry younger players, which I applaud, I cannot understand that. It looks like a confused strategy to me or perhaps a lack of the courage to confront the issue.

[CliftonCliff]

The thing about the Liverpool boot room of course is that each new manager had learned from a top manager; from Shankly to Paisley to Fagin to Moran to Dalglish. Not quite the same at Ashton Gate somehow. It really went wrong with Souness imo and is now an out of date model in a constantly changing global game.

To answer your question I was very much in favour of Wigley's appointment, for the reasons Keith gave. We don't hear from him, which is a shame, but we can be sure he played a key part in getting Caulker et al at the very least. I would like to see this approach extended to the Academy, another job that seems to be filled on a buggins turn basis. I would pay top dollar to bring in somebody of real quality from outside. On my more "imaginative" days, whatever his age, I would even consider offering Dario Gradi a couple of years to sort it out and tell him to name his price; bit silly perhaps but something needs doing.

Pretty much concur with all this on reflection, especially the comment about the academy. I do think there's a case for a balance between promoting the best of any available talent from within and an injection of fresh blood from elsewhere to prevent staleness and, more importantly, complacency, but I do agree I would love to see appointed to head of the development side of things someone of Gradi's experience and standing within the game whose main strength is bringing on young players. I'd really believe then that we're serious about trying to produce home grown talent.

[spudski]

Pretty much concur with all this on reflection, especially the comment about the academy. I do think there's a case for a balance between promoting the best of any available talent from within and an injection of fresh blood from elsewhere to prevent staleness and, more importantly, complacency, but I do agree I would love to see appointed to head of the development side of things someone of Gradi's experience and standing within the game whose main strength is bringing on young players. I'd really believe then that we're serious about trying to produce home grown talent.

I always rue the day we let Benny Lennartsson go. If only we had the Chairman and money at the time, to have the insight to keep him on as coach for the academy.

I'm sure we would have flourished under him. He is world renowned for being able to bring the kids on.

Wonder what he's doing now, after parting company with Sven?

[Red 'un']

I always rue the day we let Benny Lennartsson go. If only we had the Chairman and money at the time, to have the insight to keep him on as coach for the academy.

I'm sure we would have flourished under him. He is world renowned for being able to bring the kids on.

Wonder what he's doing now, after parting company with Sven?

Still writing songs and touring with abba

[Pete1975Legend]

James was to blame for the first (not the first time he's spilled the ball from a dead ball situation this season), the penalty was a joke because as soon as the Forest player got into the area the only place he was going was down and I didn't really see the third because the people in front of me had just come back from the bog.

Having said that, I don't think Louis should have been on the pitch today but kudos to him for coming back after such a potentially serious injury.

Anyway, we need a brand new back four otherwise we're going to have real problems next season. McAllister is too old, not fast enough and leaves far too much space on the left flank, usually because he gets drawn out of position really easily. Nyatanga looked absolutely terrified whenever he got the ball today, Louis was out of sorts to say the least and Jordan Spence isn't the answer to anyone's problems.

At times today none of them had any idea what to do with Robert Earnshaw.

I don't think we'll be relegated in 2011/12 but it might be a far less comfortable end to the season than this one was...and by 'comfortable' I mean being poor without having to worry about the prospect Carlisle on a Tuesday night.

Are you having a laugh did you see how hard that ball was hit? I don't believe any keeper would have kept hold of that, and then Carey then had ample chance to kick the ball away but fluffed his lines.

James has also had to play behind one of the worse defensive lines (more because it has not been settled) I have seen and this is proved by the fact that he has had to save more shots than any other keeper in this league.

[leedsred]

Do our finances allow the luxury of having a player to hang around the dressing room being motivational? There is often little sign of anybody being motivated or doing any motivating anyway whether Louis is around or not. We did as much with Murray, giving a year's playing contract knowing he would not be playing (at least not for us). He's a great guy too but what did that achieve? Is Louis qualified and just how many coaches do we need? If we need yet more why not bring in fresh blood with new ideas; somebody not stuck in a rut and in their comfort zone? For me either he is fit and good enough to be at least challenging for a place (and he is nowhere near as fit or good as he was imo) or we should call it a day. We are in danger of becoming a retirement home for ex-players otherwise. Time to stop living in the past I feel (meaning the likes of McAllister, Johnson etc should move on too).

I think a player of Louis' experience, class and motivation is due a lot more respect than he's been given in this thread.

It's not sentimental to give him a contract.

If we get rid of McAllister, Carey, Stewart, Caulker, Spence.... we just start with an entire new defence do we? Great.

I actually think Carey can still produce at Championship level, although maybe not in as many games as he has done. BUT even if he's a squad player and reserve team player then there would be no-one I'd rather have teaching the likes of Wilson and the lads coming through the art of defending and putting your body on the line as he has throughout his entire career at BCFC.

Coaches can only do so much, these kids learn by playing alongside experienced pros like Louis.

Thanks for all your efforts Louis, cracking servant to the club and deserves more respect.

[Alex_BCFC]

Are you having a laugh did you see how hard that ball was hit? I don't believe any keeper would have kept hold of that, and then Carey then had ample chance to kick the ball away but fluffed his lines.

I like James but I think he should have held on to it, or palmed it away better. I think most keepers in this league wouldn't have provided the opposition with a chance to score there.

[chinapig]

I think a player of Louis' experience, class and motivation is due a lot more respect than he's been given in this thread.

It's not sentimental to give him a contract.

If we get rid of McAllister, Carey, Stewart, Caulker, Spence.... we just start with an entire new defence do we? Great.

I actually think Carey can still produce at Championship level, although maybe not in as many games as he has done. BUT even if he's a squad player and reserve team player then there would be no-one I'd rather have teaching the likes of Wilson and the lads coming through the art of defending and putting your body on the line as he has throughout his entire career at BCFC.

Coaches can only do so much, these kids learn by playing alongside experienced pros like Louis.

Thanks for all your efforts Louis, cracking servant to the club and deserves more respect.

I entirely respect what Louis has done in the past I just take the view that he is well past his best and given his age is not going to get better. You disagree with that, which I also respect. But if for instance Keith gives him a 1 year contract then decides not to offer him another next year would he be disrespecting him? No, he would be making a hard headed decision in the interests of the club.

Given the other centre halves we have (excluding Wilosn I think) are under contract and Keith wants another we could have 6 or 7 of them only 2 of whom can play at any one time unless we can persuade other clubs to take some of them off our hands and pay the sort of money we do. I would not be optimistic on that. In that context Wilson may not be around for Louis to teach; the fact he didn't get a look in on Saturday doesn't bode well for him I fear. I say again, I cannot see how all this fits with the alleged strategy of reducing the size of the squad (and the budget) and improving the balance of the squad while making room for young players. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.