Club Or Country

[Red Knowle]

England away was great. wembley was great then came euro 96 new wembley and killed it even before the lions of england cole terry and rooney.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I find that international football in general is slow paced, over cautious and dull compared with league football in almost any nation. Yes there are exceptions, and some sides like Spain recently can play some very nice stuff, but all too often international games are risk averse turgid shite.

England have a number of problems on top of that for me.

Yeah, the last world cup was particularly negative I thought- though it had some reasonable games. Personally, I find the Euros to be a more watchable tournament in the main than the WC- certainly in terms of open football. Euro 2008 for example was a lot better than the last World Cup I thought- our absence notwithstanding.

[Mr Mosquito]

I don't want redknap as manager as the gutter press will no doubt scupper any good work he does with stories about him.

That said, the players might play for him more than they do for cappello

Our national press attacking various England managers has been a serious problem for 40 odd years. World Cup winner Sir Alf Ramsey was vilified by the press when we failed to qualify for the 1974 World Cup and every England manager since has been vilified over some petty misdemeanour. I think that the idea of having a foreign born England manager is so that they're less bothered about the bullshit written about them in the papers. Current England manager Fabio Capello is a good manager and some of the younger England players he had in the side against Switzerland look very promising - especially Leighton Baines and I'd never heard of him before.

[bcfcdeano]

Club for me - can't relate to the majority of the team who are on massive wages and sometimes dont look like they are giving their all, especially on the big stage, when supporters have gone to great expense to support them.

Appreciate that could be lobbied at BCFC on occasions however with BCFC you'll always get a word with the players, they'll stop and speak to you and listen to plus points and negatives and 9 times out of 10 give their all on the pitch

[cheese]

Thanks to FIFA and a bunch of whinging prima donnas that frequent the Premier League, it's City every time for me.

[havanatopia]

Why? What has he won in comparison to Capello? The latter has a glittering track record whereas Redknapp good manager though he is, does not have the CV behind him. Capello has been surprisingly one dimensional tactically for the most part. Pride and passion help, but clear technical and tactical nous are also important at this level.

I think you have partially answered your own question but to elaborate; While we may not have the team I was hoping a manager of England would at least have got our chavs playing with some tactical nous and not a little passion. Its been a long time since England played so badly in a tournament. There were stories of player revolts as well. Capello has proved nothing for England in his time here and in fact I believe we have just gone sideways. He is also a foreign coach who even today does not have a great command of English. Arry is about the best English manager in the game so for me, all of the above said, I think he would instill the sort of work ethic and patriotism required to get us at least playing football at the tournaments where we tend to bomb with such frequency. Having a right old go and losing is a whole lot better than rolling over.

[Keith_Lemon]

Is a draw against the Swiss really that bad? I do believe fans of England believe that the team itself is one of the best in the world. Which frankly it's not, as normal the media hype up the squad before every international competition. Headlines such as 'It's Englands Time' and 'England There To Win It' is the headlines made by the papers. As soon as it's published people get hyped up and honestly believe England will do well. Which ofcourse England do not, in doing so the media and press quickly turn against the side and make them out as total failures. So it's the media's fault giving people hope on England really.

Capello has been a major dissapointment. With him appointed back in 2008 I honestly thought everything was going to change, the likes of Lampard etc would no longer be playing and new flesh blood would be taking the step up to establish England as a top national side. Unfortunately 3 years later there has been no change, the likes of Ashley Cole and Lampard are still playing and pretty much done sod all. How can the likes of injury prone Ferdinand get a game, and a fantastic defender such as Gary Cahill still does not get a game, who I believe this season has been the best English defender by a long shot.

What has Martin Kelly got to do to get a game? Had a brilliant season with L'Pool and by the looks of it will be a world class right back one day soon. Perhaps he is injured Im not sure.

England are not in the same mix with the likes of Spain, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, France etc. Now before people think why France has been mentionted I'll tell you why. Since France's terrible WC in 2010 they have started from scratch in re-building their national side, which is why Im sure by 2014 in Brazil they will be dark horses if things go well for them. England still carry on with the load of dog muck in the side. And Im sorry to say but I believe in 15 years time if things stay the same not only will the PL be filled with 95% of foreign players, but England will not be qualifying for any major cup competition, such as the Euro Cup and World Cup.

Switzerland are on the same par as England, so a draw was a fair result for England, and one in reality the English people should be happy with.

[chinapig]

I think you have partially answered your own question but to elaborate; While we may not have the team I was hoping a manager of England would at least have got our chavs playing with some tactical nous and not a little passion. Its been a long time since England played so badly in a tournament. There were stories of player revolts as well. Capello has proved nothing for England in his time here and in fact I believe we have just gone sideways. He is also a foreign coach who even today does not have a great command of English. Arry is about the best English manager in the game so for me, all of the above said, I think he would instill the sort of work ethic and patriotism required to get us at least playing football at the tournaments where we tend to bomb with such frequency. Having a right old go and losing is a whole lot better than rolling over.

Pep Guardiola couldn't instill tactical nous into English players. They have had a lifetime of bad coaching in which strength has been prioritised over skill. The odd one comes through despite the coaching but the majority (repeating myself) have neither the technique nor the footballing intelligence. Too late to do anything about it by the time they reach maturity. And English "passion" usually translates into running around like headless chickens, losing any shape they had in the first place and banging hopeful long balls forward.

The "revolt" at the World Cup was a one man (John Terry) affair apparently. When he invited the other players to join him they told him where to get off (Lampard in particular it was reported) . He has revolted against at least 2 Chelsea managers as well; a sign of the size of his ego and his belief that he is more important than the manager rather than anything else.

As to patriotism I see Crouch is the latest patriot to threaten to walk away because he wasn't picked. The only loyalty these people have is to their bank balances

[Jordan Tansley]

Is a draw against the Swiss really that bad? I do believe fans of England believe that the team itself is one of the best in the world. Which frankly it's not, as normal the media hype up the squad before every international competition. Headlines such as 'It's Englands Time' and 'England There To Win It' is the headlines made by the papers. As soon as it's published people get hyped up and honestly believe England will do well. Which ofcourse England do not, in doing so the media and press quickly turn against the side and make them out as total failures. So it's the media's fault giving people hope on England really.

Capello has been a major dissapointment. With him appointed back in 2008 I honestly thought everything was going to change, the likes of Lampard etc would no longer be playing and new flesh blood would be taking the step up to establish England as a top national side. Unfortunately 3 years later there has been no change, the likes of Ashley Cole and Lampard are still playing and pretty much done sod all. How can the likes of injury prone Ferdinand get a game, and a fantastic defender such as Gary Cahill still does not get a game, who I believe this season has been the best English defender by a long shot.

What has Martin Kelly got to do to get a game? Had a brilliant season with L'Pool and by the looks of it will be a world class right back one day soon. Perhaps he is injured Im not sure.

England are not in the same mix with the likes of Spain, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, France etc. Now before people think why France has been mentionted I'll tell you why. Since France's terrible WC in 2010 they have started from scratch in re-building their national side, which is why Im sure by 2014 in Brazil they will be dark horses if things go well for them. England still carry on with the load of dog muck in the side. And Im sorry to say but I believe in 15 years time if things stay the same not only will the PL be filled with 95% of foreign players, but England will not be qualifying for any major cup competition, such as the Euro Cup and World Cup.

Switzerland are on the same par as England, so a draw was a fair result for England, and one in reality the English people should be happy with.

Martin Kelly hasn't played for months, hence the emergence of John Flanagan.

[Keith_Lemon]

Martin Kelly hasn't played for months, hence the emergence of John Flanagan.

Has he been injured? Was very impressed with him during his time when he was playing. Even Flanagan looks a potential great full back

[Jordan Tansley]

Pep Guardiola couldn't instill tactical nous into English players. They have had a lifetime of bad coaching in which strength has been prioritised over skill. The odd one comes through despite the coaching but the majority (repeating myself) have neither the technique nor the footballing intelligence. Too late to do anything about it by the time they reach maturity. And English "passion" usually translates into running around like headless chickens, losing any shape they had in the first place and banging hopeful long balls forward.

The "revolt" at the World Cup was a one man (John Terry) affair apparently. When he invited the other players to join him they told him where to get off (Lampard in particular it was reported) . He has revolted against at least 2 Chelsea managers as well; a sign of the size of his ego and his belief that he is more important than the manager rather than anything else.

As to patriotism I see Crouch is the latest patriot to threaten to walk away because he wasn't picked. The only loyalty these people have is to their bank balances

I ******* hate John Terry. For someone who has a ridiculous reputation of being a "proper Englishman" he's about as far from whatever those "English values" are meant to represent as Dick Van Dyk was from getting the cockney accent right in Mary Poppins.

Surrounding referees, diving cheating and lying. Arrogant in the press and thinking he's more important than anyone else. "great leader"? ******* terrible role model and grade A **** imo... same as Ashley Cole and Wayne Rooney.

[Mr Mosquito]

Pep Guardiola couldn't instill tactical nous into English players. They have had a lifetime of bad coaching in which strength has been prioritised over skill. The odd one comes through despite the coaching but the majority (repeating myself) have neither the technique nor the footballing intelligence. Too late to do anything about it by the time they reach maturity. And English "passion" usually translates into running around like headless chickens, losing any shape they had in the first place and banging hopeful long balls forward.

The "revolt" at the World Cup was a one man (John Terry) affair apparently. When he invited the other players to join him they told him where to get off (Lampard in particular it was reported) . He has revolted against at least 2 Chelsea managers as well; a sign of the size of his ego and his belief that he is more important than the manager rather than anything else.

As to patriotism I see Crouch is the latest patriot to threaten to walk away because he wasn't picked. The only loyalty these people have is to their bank balances

Indeed, Fabio Capello's record as a Football manager with various top European clubs - before becoming England coach - was stunning. Fabio Capello is a proven manager, England's lack of success is not down to him - it's the players he's got to work with. No coincidence that the last capable England side - during the World Cup 1990 - had far more talented and loyal players than what Fabio Cappello now has.

[Jordan Tansley]

Has he been injured? Was very impressed with him during his time when he was playing. Even Flanagan looks a potential great full back

Yes, torn hamstring hasn't played since.

Agree about Kelly though, he's gonna go far, Think Flanagan will struggle to make it at the highest level but a career at the bottom of the Premier League and upper Championship is a certainty for him.

[Red-Robbo]

Capello was successful in Italian football and in Madrid, helming what was then Europe's wealthiest club. He has no record in English football and no record as a national manager, so his CV means bugger all as far as I'm concerned.

Since managing us, he's been shown to be utterly clueless at team selection, cautious, predictable and clearly unable to motivate. That fact that he's barely bothered to learn English in the three years he's been here says it all.

Until he goes and we get a manager willing to get a performance from or drop some of the 'untouchables' who take as a right that their names automatically go down on the team sheet, I'll not be following the national side.

I for one, am amazed that some people seem to think that drawing a competitive match at home to a country 1/7th our size (and where football isn't even the most popular sport) is in any way acceptable.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I think you have partially answered your own question but to elaborate; While we may not have the team I was hoping a manager of England would at least have got our chavs playing with some tactical nous and not a little passion. Its been a long time since England played so badly in a tournament. There were stories of player revolts as well. Capello has proved nothing for England in his time here and in fact I believe we have just gone sideways. He is also a foreign coach who even today does not have a great command of English. Arry is about the best English manager in the game so for me, all of the above said, I think he would instill the sort of work ethic and patriotism required to get us at least playing football at the tournaments where we tend to bomb with such frequency. Having a right old go and losing is a whole lot better than rolling over.

Yes, first point agree- especially the tactical nous bit. His command of the language isn't so good, whereas this wasn't a problem in Italy and I think even his Spanish is decent. My one big area of disappointment in Capello that I alluded to was his lack fo tactical flexibility. Kinda hoped he would have known more than 4-4-2, which I'm pretty sure he does. Given though how much he has lauded traditional English footballing virtues such as spirit etc, a small part of me wondered whether this was him trying to assimilate, by associating English football with 4-4-2 and therefore sticking to it dogmatically.

Same with Sven actually in this regardf as I'm sure he got his top club sides abroard playing in a more tactically flexible manner than regular 4-4-2. Back to Capello though, some of his quotes were telling though I thought, espeiclaly in the first year- less about what he would bring more about how he would rediscover passion, drive and so on. As for the players, heard Talksportt earlier presenters talking about how English players needed to be handled differently. Why? If Capello's methods were good enough for modern greats like Maldini, Boban, Savievic and others- plus those he had at Real Madrid- then what makes these dears so special!?

[Red-Robbo]

Why should Capello care what the team does. He knows he isn't staying in the job. He's having to scrape by on a mere £6m a year while waiting a lucrative return to Italian football, where he can moan how he couldn't achieve what he wanted over here due to "the English system".

He's the lamest of lame duck managers - saddled on us thanks to those intrepid corruption-busters at the FA.

Personally, I think 'Sir' Dave Richards et al should fund his salary from their own pockets.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Why should Capello care what the team does. He knows he isn't staying in the job. He's having to scrape by on a mere £6m a year while waiting a lucrative return to Italian football, where he can moan how he couldn't achieve what he wanted over here due to "the English system".

He's the lamest of lame duck managers - saddled on us thanks to those intrepid corruption-busters at the FA.

Personally, I think 'Sir' Dave Richards et al should fund his salary from their own pockets.

Actually, in slight- and only slight- defence of him, I'd suggest he has made a couple of decent changes in the last year. He has taken the step of blooding some younger blood- i.e. Hart, Baines, Wilshere, Young and Carroll. Bent has been added to the set up and we've seen occasional starts for Johnson and Jagielka. Switching to 4-3-3 was a welcome and long overdue change too.

[The Batman]

lost interest in watching England play internationals now.

Obviously the world cup and Euro's are different but could not care less for the qualifiers or friendlies. Even during the tournament, watching England is boring and dross.

Wanna watch a team of English players running their guts out and putting their bodies on the line and showing a shed load of pride while wearing the shirt???

then watch the Rugby World Cup in September.

Dont care if i get shot down, Rugby is a great sport imo.

In response to the initial question, Club all the way at the moment.

[Fireman Sam]

Club

Can't stand FIFA. And their corporates.

[NiceRed]

A few very strange responses on here.

To those saying watching England "isn't like it used to be", what mythical golden age are you referring to? You seem to be talking about the fairly recent past. When we won nothing, and played just as well/badly as we are now.

In recent years, England's average tournament finish is somewhere between the 2nd round and QF stage. Which puts us somewhere between 5th and 16th in the World/Europe, which is probably where most fans say we deserve to be. So we haven't underachieved at all in big tournaments.

Taking 4 points off Switzerland (as we have done in our group), is not a shameful performance by any means. We'll still almost certainly qualify. A bit of perspective needed by some people.

But to answer the initial question, I'd go for Club over Country. I absolutely love the World Cup/Euros, and watch every game in every tournament, but club football is the heart of the game.

[simon uk]

certainly club over country, as others have said, for me watching england, I am sad to say it has gotten to the point where if I see someone like ashley cole or john terry making a mistake, or england conceding daft goals, like on saturday, I actually like it, just so I hope it brings these people down a peg or 2.

I have said it before, with the morally bereft lot playing for us now, and watching that game on saturday and seeing the bent and downing misses, how anyone has the right to think we should be beating switzerland, based on all our world class players is beyond me. Then there was the lampard free kick, that was last seen flying toward the corner flag - let Wilshire take it, at least if he misses he might learn something! How can lampard be a multi millionaire when his free kicks are so far wide? I could get it closer than that! Its just wrong, but sums up this generation of footballers perfectly.

The best thing wilshire could do is go and sign for barcelona - let him play with their midfield in training and games for a couple of years, then finally we might have someone who really is world class.

[chinapig]

A few very strange responses on here.

To those saying watching England "isn't like it used to be", what mythical golden age are you referring to? You seem to be talking about the fairly recent past. When we won nothing, and played just as well/badly as we are now.

In recent years, England's average tournament finish is somewhere between the 2nd round and QF stage. Which puts us somewhere between 5th and 16th in the World/Europe, which is probably where most fans say we deserve to be. So we haven't underachieved at all in big tournaments.

Taking 4 points off Switzerland (as we have done in our group), is not a shameful performance by any means. We'll still almost certainly qualify. A bit of perspective needed by some people.

But to answer the initial question, I'd go for Club over Country. I absolutely love the World Cup/Euros, and watch every game in every tournament, but club football is the heart of the game.

Fair comment but for me it is not about some perceived drop in quality but the attitude of the current players. Starting with the laughably named Golden Generation they have developed (helped by a craven media and lots of PR) a bloated opinion of their ability. They regard it as a divine right to be selected though they will pick and choose when they will turn up (lots of mysterious injuries seem to crop up when required). They are no worse players than many of their predecessors but they are far worse people. I can forgive a player for not being very good; I cannot forgive him for being an obnoxious, vain, self-serving slob.

[Greedo]

The cynical view.

International football is by and large shit and boring to watch. There have been less than half a dozen England games I can remember enjoying. It's very hard to support a team with scumbags like Terry, Cole, Rooney and a few others in. The press make a mockery of the entire England scene by pandering to the dumbest and most illiterate engerland fans, trying to tear down everybody associated with England football (particularly those evil foreigners) but at the same time pretending we have some sort of right to compete with the best. And then there's the English FA, too incompetent to even be corrupt properly and massively self interested. There are too many borderline racist wallies at England games trying to relive past inglories. Besides, who can really be proud of being English these days? One look at the Daily Fail's circulation figures is all you need to rip that last shred of patriotism out surely?

In short, **** watching England sideways. City all the way.

As for the debate about winning the world cup vs promotion, it's irrelevant. There's more chance of Lord Lucan winning the next national on Shergar than England getting to the world cup final. Besides, City in the Prem would actually make a difference to my life whereas England winning the world cup would just mean having to queue up behind knobheads for a drink if I ventured to a pub that week.

I don't say it often but, This.