Smoking In Pubs

[Robbored]

Not so, I know many non smokers who actually enjoyed being in pubs with smokers. Rabid anti smokers are actually very few and far between, and the worst are very often ex-smokers.

Pubs could have been given the choice to be smoking or non smoking.

They could also have been given the choice to have a smoking and non smoking bar in their pubs.

Everyone could, and should have been happy, as it is traditional British pubs are being boarded up at a frightening rate and the smoking ban is undoubtedly the largest single reason.

Have a look at post 17. Monkeh makes a counter argument that pubs closed because of the smoking ban.

Fact is, smoking is a health hazzard, invasive and disgusting to those who don't partake.

[BigTone]

And why should the smoker be inconvenienced because you have decided to stand in a certain spot??

The result of your smoking is a passive residue that is dangerous to my health, gets into my clothes and stinks.

I enjoy a pint the result of which causes me to want to urinate. Unless I go to a designated toilet it would be dangerous to your health and would stink.

Using your logic it seems to me that you should have no objection to me pissing all over you if you chose to stand in a certain spot .

[Nogbad the Bad]

Have a look at post 17. Monkeh makes a counter argument that pubs closed because of the smoking ban.

Fact is, smoking is a health hazzard, invasive and disgusting to those who don't partake.

I've read it and I don't agree with Monkeh if he is saying the smoking ban has not played a significant part in the decline of pubs.

The fact is a large percentage of people who went to pubs were smokers.

Many of these no longer go so numbers in pubs have dropped, and the traditional atmosphere these long term pub goers created has largely disappeared..

There's never been any proof passive smoking is a health hazard, and you speak for yourself - by your own admission an ex-smoker - when you speak of disgust at smoking.

As I've said the average person doesn't have a huge problem with it, and many non smokers are equally as disaffected with the new style feminised pubs with candles on every table.

There was room for smoking bars so that smokers and non smokers could each be accommodated happily - blanket bans instigated by anti smoking fanatics who exaggerated to suit their own agenda are very un-British imo.

[Red-Robbo]

Have a look at post 17. Monkeh makes a counter argument that pubs closed because of the smoking ban.

Fact is, smoking is a health hazzard, invasive and disgusting to those who don't partake.

I don't partake but I don't find smoking disgusting or particularly invasive.

For those going on about clothes smelling of smoke - don't you change your clothes daily?

[Robbored]

I've read it and I don't agree with Monkeh if he is saying the smoking ban has not played a significant part in the decline of pubs.

The fact is a large percentage of people who went to pubs were smokers.

Many of these no longer go so numbers in pubs have dropped, and the traditional atmosphere these long term pub goers created has largely disappeared..

There's never been any proof passive smoking is a health hazard, and you speak for yourself - by your own admission an ex-smoker - when you speak of disgust at smoking.

A small example - I used to drink in a pub in Nailsea and there were loads of smokers who complained bitterly when the ban was introduced. Then after the ban started not one of them (and we are talking about dozen people) stopped using the pub. They simply went into the garden where there was a covered area when they wanted to smoke. I'm sure that would have applied to hundreds of pubs all over the country.

Your also overlooking the fact that some people now use pubs when previously when they all had smoky atmospheres, they didn't use them.

It one-eyed to blame the closure of pubs solely on the smoking ban. The greedy breweries squeezing landlords who then have no option but hike up prices must take much of the blame.

[Fiale]

It one-eyed to blame the closure of pubs solely on the smoking ban. The greedy breweries squeezing landlords who then have no option but hike up prices must take much of the blame.

Sorry Robbored, you normally talk sense but to blame breweries squeezing landlords is just not true, show me the stats to show this squeeze correlating with

Ireland pubs

2003-2004 increase in pubs 250

2004 smoking ban introduced in Ireland

2004-2005 closure of 700 pubs

England and Wales

2005-2006 closure of around 100

2006-2007 closure of around 230

2007 smoking ban introduced in England and Wales

2007-2008 closure of around 1400

2008-2009 closure of around 1900

2009-2010 closure of around 2600

show me that Landlord charges in Ireland on 2004 and England and Wales in 2007 (the times that smoking bans were introduced) that can account for the most obvious reason for pub closures. I see anti-smokers always grasping for other things to explain the closures, because they refuse to look at he most obvious reason because it goes against their cause, sometimes you just have to be honest and say - "so what, they probably did close due to the smoking ban, and I don't care" - at least that would be honest as opposed to grasping at straws to cover your own bias.

[Red Knowle]

Should be down to the landlord as they know the trade best. bigger pubs bars coulds split premises like the tobacco factory used to can't remmebr non smokers lining up to get in all these pubs once the ban came in, fact is more pubs shut and for places like the black cat where the only place people can smoke is the pavement it will affect walk up. trade is hard enough as it is dont want to smoke go to a non smoking pub. if there was such a demand and money to be made bristol landlords would have had non smoing pubs all over, they didnt because they knew the score.

[Robbored]

Sorry Robbored, you normally talk sense but to blame breweries squeezing landlords is just not true, show me the stats to show this squeeze correlating with

Ireland pubs

2003-2004 increase in pubs 250

2004 smoking ban introduced in Ireland

2004-2005 closure of 700 pubs

England and Wales

2005-2006 closure of around 100

2006-2007 closure of around 230

2007 smoking ban introduced in England and Wales

2007-2008 closure of around 1400

2008-2009 closure of around 1900

2009-2010 closure of around 2600

show me that Landlord charges in Ireland on 2004 and England and Wales in 2007 (the times that smoking bans were introduced) that can account for the most obvious reason for pub closures. I see anti-smokers always grasping for other things to explain the closures, because they refuse to look at he most obvious reason because it goes against their cause, sometimes you just have to be honest and say - "so what, they probably did close due to the smoking ban, and I don't care" - at least that would be honest as opposed to grasping at straws to cover your own bias.

Read again what I said ''its one eyed to blame the closure of pubs solely on the ban''.

I won't argue that the smoking ban has not played a part in the closure of some pubs but is not the sole cause. Prices, caused by the breweries squeezing landlords play a much bigger part.

In my local pub a pint of Stowford costs over 3 quid. People just can't afford it as easily a they used to.

Lets look at all the factors - not just one that suits your argument.

[Red Knowle]

xxxxxx ignore wrong thread.

[Talk Of The Town]

Sky TV is also a factor. It now costs pubs around £900 a month for Sky with the sports package.

I would be interested to know how many pubs have ditched sky.

[Red Knowle]

I see that the Mardyke in Bristol is calling for it's return.

Personally I'm no fan of my clothes stinking, but it's fair to say that the legions of non smokers who said that they would start visiting their local have failed to materialise.

Mardykes an old school working class pub. one of the cheapest pints of cider around. pavement gets packed on a serioulsy busy road nowhere else to smoke there. I dont get this clothes thing unless you wear the same clothes next day.

[Nogbad the Bad]

A small example - I used to drink in a pub in Nailsea and there were loads of smokers who complained bitterly when the ban was introduced. Then after the ban started not one of them (and we are talking about dozen people) stopped using the pub. They simply went into the garden where there was a covered area when they wanted to smoke. I'm sure that would have applied to hundreds of pubs all over the country.

That's fine in the Summer but clearly not acceptable the rest of the time. Separate bars was the obvious answer, if indeed there was any need for change at all.

Your also overlooking the fact that some people now use pubs when previously when they all had smoky atmospheres, they didn't use them.

I don't believe there's any evidence whatsoever to support that statement. There is certainly the evidence of one's own eyes to show that less people go to pubs now and many ex pub goers cite the smoking ban as the primary reason for their absence.

It one-eyed to blame the closure of pubs solely on the smoking ban. The greedy breweries squeezing landlords who then have no option but hike up prices must take much of the blame.

I didn't say it was the sole reason at all, just that it has played a significant part. Higher prices might mean pub goers having one pint less, or going out slightly less frequently. The smoking ban means huge numbers have stopped their habit of going to the pub altogether.

There has been no huge influx of non smokers to replace them and where pubs are actually surviving it is often the gardens and other outside smoking areas which are the only crowded areas, while the sweetly smelling candlelit bar is almost deserted and completely lacking in the renowned traditional atmosphere.

Pubs by their very nature should be welcoming places. Smokers now no longer feel welcome and are not willing to stand out in the cold and rain to partake of their lawful and traditional habit of enjoying tobacco with their pint. Don't forget the old blokes in every pub contentedly puffing on their pipes and the wonderful opportunity for interaction between the generations their presence provided. People who are rabidly anti smoking are very likely to be the sort of anti social lecturing characters who rarely went to the pub in the first place and they certainly haven't made good their noisy protestations that they would fill the pubs once the smokers were cleared out.

Let's face it, there was a lot of anti smoking noise in the media but the fact is hardly anyone objected to smoking in pubs in the first place.

[Dollymarie]

I dont get this clothes thing unless you wear the same clothes next day.

Coats for example dont get washed every day, they end up stinking of smoke. And us ladies with longer hair than you boys, it makes your hair stink too. (I only wash my hair every other day)

[Robbored]

Pubs by their very nature should be welcoming places. Smokers now no longer feel welcome and are not willing to stand out in the cold and rain to partake of their lawful and traditional habit of enjoying tobacco with their pint. Don't forget the old blokes in every pub contentedly puffing on their pipes and the wonderful opportunity for interaction between the generations their presence provided. People who are rabidly anti smoking are very likely to be the sort of anti social lecturing characters who rarely went to the pub in the first place and they certainly haven't made good their noisy protestations that they would fill the pubs once the smokers were cleared out.

Let's face it, there was a lot of anti smoking noise in the media but the fact is hardly anyone objected to smoking in pubs in the first place.

I was in Australia earlier this year and much to my surprise there is no longer a 'pub culture' down under. Most people now drink at home usually with invited friends around the barbie. Its reciprocal arrangement.

But......my brother in law says that 20 odd years ago Australia went through a change of pubs closing. Why? because it became too expensive to drink in pubs. No smoking bans in place back then. Example - in a large pub in Fremantle a pint of chilled redback lager cost me just under 10 Australian dollars. That's about 7.5 quid. Its was a hot day around 2pm and it was virtually empty. Its food that keeps these places going.

Same thing is happening over here. Obviously Oz has a very warm climate and consequently has a different lifestyle so perhaps not such a good example but it does highlight how high prices effect customers over time.

Over here its possible to buy 18, 500ml cans of Thatchers Gold at 68p a can. In a pub a pint of the same will cost anything from 2.60 - 3.20p. No wonder the pub trade is dying.

[Barrs Court Red]

That's something I don't get. Why is it so expensive, taxes?

Its actually cheaper to drink in town than in the pubs by me.....but obviously there are other costs like taxis

[BrizleCiderArmy]

Im a smoker, after giving up for 3 years ( long story but the worst that happened is starting smoking again thats the least of my worries) I dont think it is only the smoking ban nor the price of pints/ rents that is the cause of the death of the pub its the change in culture.

Younger people are no longer prepared to travel far for a drink unless its as part of a large group ( exhaustive talks with taxi drivers round my way confirm this, People are using taxis to go shorter distances and sticking withing certain unwritten boundaries), going for a pint of a dinner time or after work is largely frowned upon unless there is an alternative purpose like dinner or meeting mates or whatever . the done thing is to get lagered/drunk at home, yes part of is cheaper or whatever, but the comaraderie and stuff like games of poker, xbox, and whatever else has taken precedent. Trad pubs are seen as being old and unliked and unless there are large family ties to the pub ie dad and uncle and whatever its very unlikely that people will become locals for the sake of meeting people.

For older people, there are other things to do. Bottle of Wine/Ale in front of Telly or DVD Gym and so beats going to the pub, when there is going to be no one there or whatever. The only pubs that are thriving up this end are the ones that serve food and have a reputation for good food, are in with the students thus guarenteeing custom or the ones with some kind of gimmick Irish pub ( not O neils type but ran by an Irish/Celt landlord and celebrate that fact). Changes in working hours also means that the pub for everyone isnt always an option

Other than that there is scant reasons to actually go. Many are dirty and smelly ( not fag smoke) and seem to be from a bygone era, even with facelifts So while there will be regulars its rare to see regulars under 30 who will actually stay the course and not move on and have repeated business.

Basically Pubs that were know will die out. There are plenty of factors for this and its a shame, but unless something changes completely it will be chains, specialist pubs and thats about it. All my locals ( 4 pubs) have closed within about 4 years the local population make up has changed but people stopped going as they didnt offer food, were overpriced unwelcoming and run down. The Landlords for two of them sold up. 1 has been demolished as was unsafe and the other has been converted in to flats.

Re young people and culture. We now live in the technological generation. The social aspect( most important whilst having a craty pint down the boozer i think)has almost vanished. 99% of the young generation cant have a conversation anymore without the likes facebook and twitter being the middleman. Its as if the pub is no longer needed. Equally so, a lot of the older people are guilty of 'socializing' this way too.

I smoked for ten years, and given up for almost half that amount. Whilst i try and keep out of peoples smoke clouds as much as i can, it dont bother me being around other smokers.

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

Should be down to the landlord as they know the trade best. bigger pubs bars coulds split premises like the tobacco factory used to can't remmebr non smokers lining up to get in all these pubs once the ban came in, fact is more pubs shut and for places like the black cat where the only place people can smoke is the pavement it will affect walk up. trade is hard enough as it is dont want to smoke go to a non smoking pub. if there was such a demand and money to be made bristol landlords would have had non smoing pubs all over, they didnt because they knew the score.

Thats an excellent point Red Knowle however it shouldnt be needed. Any day now all those thousands of non/anti-smokers who were celebrating when the smoking ban came in will start using local pubs on a regular basis like they said they would.

I wonder how many pubs closed in the last 3 years compared to the number of closures in the recession of the early 90's? Anyone out there who aint fick like me able to find those figures?? Surely that would give the best possible indicator of how damaging to business the smoking ban has actually been.

I would like to say that Im off to my local for a couple of pints but unfortunately it shut down, apparently something to do with dying on its arse since the smoking ban according to the ex landlord.

[Robbored]

I wonder how many pubs closed in the last 3 years compared to the number of closures in the recession of the early 90's? Anyone out there who aint fick like me able to find those figures?? Surely that would give the best possible indicator of how damaging to business the smoking ban has actually been.

Its not that straightforward Ted.

The closure of pubs is not down to one particular reason, its multi factorial. Recession that experts say is the worst since WW2, cultural changes as highlighted in an earlier post, breweries being greedy and ruthless forcing prices up. I'm sure the smoking ban hasn't helped but its not the one reason.

For me price hikes are just as responsible for the decline in pub trade. Blame the breweries.

[CiderHider]

With proper venalation i cant see it being a problem. You are more likly to suffer from lung problem from the pollution from busses, trucks and cars than you are smoking the odd rolly. I might call for a ban on the combustion engine.

Thank God there are still places in the world that alow smoking in bar, pubs.

Didnt I hear some silly wankkers trying to ban smoking on the high Street? , good luck with that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

With proper venalation i cant see it being a problem. You are more likly to suffer from lung problem from the pollution from busses, trucks and cars than you are smoking the odd rolly. I might call for a ban on the combustion engine.

Thank God there are still places in the world that alow smoking in bar, pubs.

Didnt I hear some silly wankkers trying to ban smoking on the high Street? , good luck with that.

Tend to agree with good chunks of this. I'm not a smoker myself, but if we can put a man on the moon then surely we can find a way to get proper ventalation in pubs. Certainly the first bit I really do agree on- very seldom is it that the dangers of 2nd hand pollution from cars etc is flagged up as a health issue. Read in the paper today actually- sadly can't find an online link atm- that rather a lot of lives are ended prematurely by 2nd hand pollution. Can't remember the exact figures but will certainly look for said article.Ah yes, here we go:

Air pollution killing tens of thousands each year

By Jonathan Owen

Sunday, 3 July 2011

Pollution in the air is leading to an invisible public health crisis that kills tens of thousands of Britons each year and shortens the lives of nearly 200,000 others, according to experts.

With this week marking 55 years since the 1956 Clean Air Act, campaigners say action on a similar scale is needed once more. A coalition including Asthma UK, Campaign for Better Transport and Friends of the Earth will launch a "healthy air" campaign on Tuesday calling on the Government to act. The new threat is far less obvious than the visible levels of smog of the early 20th century. They are not seen to the naked eye, but tiny particles of pollutants known as particulate matter can be deadly.

About 30,000 people died from air pollution in Britain in 2008, said Professor Frank Kelly of the Environmental Research Group at King's College London. At a recent inquiry into air quality by Parliament's Environmental Audit Committee (EAC), he warned: "We have this new problem that we cannot see: it is tiny particles of nitrogen dioxide." The lives of 187,000 people who die from heart disease have been shortened as a result. "If we consider the air pollution component ... then probably those individuals are losing on average three years of their life."

Joan Walley MP, EAC chair, said: "It's a scandal that the same number of people are dying of air pollution in London now as back in the 1950s. The Government needs to step in."

A Defra spokesperson said: "We know more needs to be done to improve air quality and we are working towards full compliance with European air quality standards."

Incredible really when you think about it, 30k dying from air pollution here a few years back and barely any coverage- certainly not when compared to the health risk of smoking which is highlighted all too often.

[Robbored]

Tend to agree with good chunks of this. I'm not a smoker myself, but if we can put a man on the moon then surely we can find a way to get proper ventalation in pubs.

The bottom line is that successive governments want ultimately to ban smoking all together. The health costs alone are vast to the NHS and any taxes retrieved from tobacco doesn't touch the sides. Poverty is linked to smoking. Families on low incomes or benefits with two smokers often spend 12quid or more on a daily basis, almost a 100 quid a week on tobacco.

Firstly gradual increases in tax, then banning smoking in pubs and restaurants, next it will banning smoking in cars with children travelling in them. Then heavier taxes.

[Red-Robbo]

Hang on though, you can't blame cigarettes for causing poverty and then suggest the solution is ... make them cost more!

As Joe Jackson points out in that article I posted earlier, we should be very very sceptical when approaching estimates of smoking's cost to the NHS.

No-one argues the habit is healthy, but the way stats are presented, every natural death of a smoker is put down as a "smoking-related death" - despite the fact that millions of non-smokers also die from the same diseases.

I also think the absolute numbers of smokers is under-estimated. In the UK, we count it by collating data from surveys and from information fed back by GPs. But many smokers now don't want to admit the habit to their doctors, as they know they'll be constantly harrangued about it - and possibly be discriminated against when it comes to access to certain treatments.

[miketh2nd]

I was in Australia earlier this year and much to my surprise there is no longer a 'pub culture' down under. Most people now drink at home usually with invited friends around the barbie. Its reciprocal arrangement.

But......my brother in law says that 20 odd years ago Australia went through a change of pubs closing. Why? because it became too expensive to drink in pubs. No smoking bans in place back then. Example - in a large pub in Fremantle a pint of chilled redback lager cost me just under 10 Australian dollars. That's about 7.5 quid. Its was a hot day around 2pm and it was virtually empty. Its food that keeps these places going.

Same thing is happening over here. Obviously Oz has a very warm climate and consequently has a different lifestyle so perhaps not such a good example but it does highlight how high prices effect customers over time.

Over here its possible to buy 18, 500ml cans of Thatchers Gold at 68p a can. In a pub a pint of the same will cost anything from 2.60 - 3.20p. No wonder the pub trade is dying.

very good point here people always want to get drunk the cheapest way possible and only a handful people I know regulary go to a pub week in week out. I do think supermarkets etc shouldn't be able to sell it so cheaply in the first place but also nor should the brewerys charge so much. Also as has been said earlier in the thread about people having friends round , tv culture and the modern generation killing off the old one. Personally I don't go to my local that much due to having friends all over the place. Do attend local pub near my work but for meeting people I already know. but when out and about much rather start off in somewhere such as weatherspoons to start the night cheapily and then off to the well known pubs in the centre or Gloucester road.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The bottom line is that successive governments want ultimately to ban smoking all together. The health costs alone are vast to the NHS and any taxes retrieved from tobacco doesn't touch the sides. Poverty is linked to smoking. Families on low incomes or benefits with two smokers often spend 12quid or more on a daily basis, almost a 100 quid a week on tobacco.

Firstly gradual increases in tax, then banning smoking in pubs and restaurants, next it will banning smoking in cars with children travelling in them. Then heavier taxes.

That's quite a big leap from restrictions and tax- but at the same time far from impossible I guess. It'd never fly, Labour, Tories, whoever trying to ban it outright- well would be a major, major hit to their electoral hopes surely.

On the whole cost/benefit thing, just found some figures which suggest it costs the NHS £5bn per annum.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8086142.stm

However, this link suggests the Exchequer makes some £10bn from sales of tobacco etc...

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/cigarette_tax_receipts_v_cost_of

http://www.the-tma.org.uk/tma-publications-research/facts-figures/tax-revenue-from-tobacco/

In this time of cuts, well the Govt need every penny they can get their hands on I'm sure- based on those admittedly fairly basic figures, bit of a net earner. Clearly this doesn't take into account cost to society etc... Clearly there must be other costs other than directly treating smokers etc but a net gain of £5bn on initial figures.

[Red-Robbo]

Health fascism in action from our northern neighbours http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/04/iceland-considers-prescription-only-cigarettes

Maybe Robbored should emmigrate there?

[Rob k]

I knock about with about 6 good mates and we used to go to the pub regularly, 2 of us smoked but it was never an issue as we would nip outside for a fag, I personally believe it's the cost of a pint which had put people off going, I can't remember the last time we went to the pub for a night out, instead get a few bottles of gold and invite your mates round, what's the difference really?

[LSR]

Personally I don't see the problem with smoking rooms in pubs.

That, or pubs should be able to apply for a smoking licence which must meet very strict criteria in regards to air conditioning etc.

We lack intelligence in this country with our blanket bands and legitimised intolerance. We should be more liberal in my opinion.

Switzerland still has smoking in some pubs. Don't like it, don't go there. Don't mind it, go in there.

but why should a non smoker suffer if he wants a pint? he aint the one killing or harming other people is he.