England

[Keith_Lemon]

I can see where you're coming from and we are definitely overrated, but think we are easily a top 20 side. A top 20 side should be able to qualify for World Cups and we often do that, despite being in tougher qualifying groups than some other regions. The 5 you mention are top sides though and as bris red mentions, we are also in a rebuilding process similar to France. We certainly lack the technical ability on and off the ball that some of the better nations have, but I think you are being a bit negative in terms of comparing ourselves with countries such as Switzerland, Denmark, etc ...

We may only have a few World Class players. I would include Ferdinand, Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard and Cole (possibly even Terry) in that list. I also think Wilshere and Hart are not far off either and will only get better. From the teams you mention that we should be on a level with, I can't think of that number of world class players between them. Only Essien, Modric and Cech off the top of my head and a couple of promising youngsters. Draws against those teams should not be considered good results. We should be aiming higher.

A good read and a fair opinion on your view of England. Yes England are in a rebuilding process, but to say similar to France im not so sure. France are using their young players now and should pay off for them in a few years. England are using a few but not enough and the golden boys are still playing. I think it's unfair to blame the whole thing on Capello, I do agree he has made mistakes, such as last year he brought the squad too early in for training and should of let them unwind, relax and enjoy themselves while in South Africa. If I was to give my advice to the FA it would simply be use the promising youngsters now and help develop them even more and maximize their own potential. If a young player has a bright future and can possibly do as well or better than the current XI then give the lad the experience of playing in the England National team.

[Mr Popodopolous]

A good read and a fair opinion on your view of England. Yes England are in a rebuilding process, but to say similar to France im not so sure. France are using their young players now and should pay off for them in a few years. England are using a few but not enough and the golden boys are still playing. I think it's unfair to blame the whole thing on Capello, I do agree he has made mistakes, such as last year he brought the squad too early in for training and should of let them unwind, relax and enjoy themselves while in South Africa. If I was to give my advice to the FA it would simply be use the promising youngsters now and help develop them even more and maximize their own potential. If a young player has a bright future and can possibly do as well or better than the current XI then give the lad the experience of playing in the England National team.

He has made errors for sure, but there have been a few in fairness to him...

Hart

Wilshere

Henderson

Young

Carroll

Then, not young but stil younger and new faces such as Jagielka, Parker and Bent. It's always a fine line though knowing when to blood youngsters and managing that transitional period while still remaining fairly competitive.

[Keith_Lemon]

He has made errors for sure, but there have been a few in fairness to him...

Hart

Wilshere

Henderson

Young

Carroll

Then, not young but stil younger and new faces such as Jagielka, Parker and Bent. It's always a fine line though knowing when to blood youngsters and managing that transitional period while still remaining fairly competitive.

the likes of Hart, Wilshire and Young are fantastic potentials. I hope to see them do well in the future. I don't really know much about Henderson, apart from the staggering 20mil deal, from what I heard he's just average. Im not 100% on Carroll either yet, it will be interesting how he does this coming season with Liverpool. I think he's got potential, but that could be potentially good, world class or even rubbish and a let down. Time will only tell.

Im a fan of Jagielka and also in my opinion based on this season Gary Cahill is the best centre back England currently have. Scott Parker Im not to sure on, does ok for West Ham but is he a player who could handle Champions League football?

Darrent Bent also blows hot & cold for me. At one point it seems he could be a world class foward, then he turn into an average PL foward. Seems to rotate himself around between the two.

[Mr Popodopolous]

the likes of Hart, Wilshire and Young are fantastic potentials. I hope to see them do well in the future. I don't really know much about Henderson, apart from the staggering 20mil deal, from what I heard he's just average. Im not 100% on Carroll either yet, it will be interesting how he does this coming season with Liverpool. I think he's got potential, but that could be potentially good, world class or even rubbish and a let down. Time will only tell.

Im a fan of Jagielka and also in my opinion based on this season Gary Cahill is the best centre back England currently have. Scott Parker Im not to sure on, does ok for West Ham but is he a player who could handle Champions League football?

Darrent Bent also blows hot & cold for me. At one point it seems he could be a world class foward, then he turn into an average PL foward. Seems to rotate himself around between the two.

I'd go along with that.

[InCider]

A good read and a fair opinion on your view of England. Yes England are in a rebuilding process, but to say similar to France im not so sure. France are using their young players now and should pay off for them in a few years. England are using a few but not enough and the golden boys are still playing. I think it's unfair to blame the whole thing on Capello, I do agree he has made mistakes, such as last year he brought the squad too early in for training and should of let them unwind, relax and enjoy themselves while in South Africa. If I was to give my advice to the FA it would simply be use the promising youngsters now and help develop them even more and maximize their own potential. If a young player has a bright future and can possibly do as well or better than the current XI then give the lad the experience of playing in the England National team.

Yeah, I think he has made some steps, such as introducing the likes of Wilshere to the first team. Personally, I would also start playing players like Rodwell, Jones and Smalling (who was particularly impressive in the U21 tournament) now, or at least include them in every squad. I would like to think that some get a run out in Euro 2012. I couldn't believe it when Capello called up Kevin Davies at the age of 33! I think in order to complete with far superior teams like Spain, that we need to overhaul our entire football set up from grass roots upwards. I can't see the FA and Prem League taking these steps though. They seem happy with the status quo, despite us failing to progress in successive tournaments due to lack of technical ability and being able to hold on to the ball. We also play too many games leading to fatigue and more injuries than most nations. Unless we put more money into youth football, creating better facilities and producing more and better qualified coaches then we will continue to fall behind. Barca's youth set up is years ahead of anything here, although Arsenal's set up looks like it may produce the odd gem. We just need more people with that sort of long-term thinking here. The FA even shut down Lilleshall. I can't really remember the reasons why, but we should be opening more centres of excellence. That's why France has an abundance of youngsters capable of making the 1st XI now.

[Jordan Tansley]

Owen was world class for a long period but obvious injuries set him back. Beckham has never been.

You're kidding right?

[Bris Red]

You're kidding right?

No not at all. I have had this debate on numerous occasions with mates etc. David Beckham was never world class, he was never rounded enough to call himself a world class player. He was a sublime dead ball taker and i applaud that, his long range passing was also sublime and im not knocking those aspects of his game.

But with the ball at his feet was Beckham in the same league as Xavi, Inestia,Zidane, Figo, Ronaldinho and the like? Those are world class midfielders, players who are technically gifted, players that can beat a man with flare and who have imagination. When Ronaldinho and Zidane (just two examples) were in there prime i used to switch on the tv and honestly didn't know what to expect. Its a similar feeling to when Gazza was at his best for Lazio, these players are special talents. And wat annoys me is that people are so quick to put him in that sort of company, were you ever excited watching Beckham would be my question? I certainly wasn't. Did i admire his range of passing and his free kicks, yes but i struggled to see what else he brought to the table.

Maybe Jordan your interpretation of World Class is different to mine. World class for me means you are in the top bracket of players for your position, as i said Zidane and the like were a class above Beckham.

[Melksham Red]

Terry, Cole ,Gerrard , Lampard, Rooney would walk into most club sides in Europe so we have plenty of ability in the team. The problem has always been getting them to gel and all play well at the same time.

Our time will come, if Greece can win the Euros then so can we!

[Matty-H]

Beckham was never world class?? Have a word with yourself FFS

[InCider]

No not at all. I have had this debate on numerous occasions with mates etc. David Beckham was never world class, he was never rounded enough to call himself a world class player. He was a sublime dead ball taker and i applaud that, his long range passing was also sublime and im not knocking those aspects of his game.

But with the ball at his feet was Beckham in the same league as Xavi, Inestia,Zidane, Figo, Ronaldinho and the like? Those are world class midfielders, players who are technically gifted, players that can beat a man with flare and who have imagination. When Ronaldinho and Zidane (just two examples) were in there prime i used to switch on the tv and honestly didn't know what to expect. Its a similar feeling to when Gazza was at his best for Lazio, these players are special talents. And wat annoys me is that people are so quick to put him in that sort of company, were you ever excited watching Beckham would be my question? I certainly wasn't. Did i admire his range of passing and his free kicks, yes but i struggled to see what else he brought to the table.

Maybe Jordan your interpretation of World Class is different to mine. World class for me means you are in the top bracket of players for your position, as i said Zidane and the like were a class above Beckham.

Yes, your definition of world class is naming players that have either won or were close to winning World Player of the Year awards. That is better than world class. Your definition needs amending. It's a bit like saying Pele and Maradonna were world class, but Becks was no near that level, so couldn't be.

[Bris Red]

Beckham was never world class?? Have a word with yourself FFS

read my post mate. Football is a matter of opinions. I think you will find many in the footballing world would also share my sentiments.

BTW, here are a few definitions of world class ''Ranking among the foremost in the world'' ''of an international standard of excellence; of the highest order''.

If you think Mr Beckham was up there with Zidane and the like then fair play, imo he was way off this standard.

I think the problem actually boils down to the way people interpret the word ''world class''. Its a word that should be used with great caution but many just band it about as if it means very little.

[InCider]

read my post mate. Football is a matter of opinions. I think you will find many in the footballing world would also share my sentiments.

BTW, here are a few definitions of world class ''Ranking among the foremost in the world'' ''of an international standard of excellence; of the highest order''.

If you think Mr Beckham was up there with Zidane and the like then fair play, imo he was way off this standard.

I think the problem actually boils down to the way people interpret the word ''world class''. Its a word that should be used with great caution but many just band it about as if it means very little.

Spot on. World class is open to interpretation. Your interpretation is that it must constitute a much higher level. Taking that into account, there are very few world class players about. In fact you could argue that Brazil have none on that basis. If you need to be up there with the likes of Zidane, then you could probably just name Xavi, Iniesta and Messi at the moment.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Spot on. World class is open to interpretation. Your interpretation is that it must constitute a much higher level. Taking that into account, there are very few world class players about. In fact you could argue that Brazil have none on that basis. If you need to be up there with the likes of Zidane, then you could probably just name Xavi, Iniesta and Messi at the moment.

Does position not come into it too? For example, if we're talking worldclass strikers I would wager the following would definitely be among it:

Rooney, Villa, Eto'o. Sure there's a few more though.

[WellRedPhil]

No not at all. I have had this debate on numerous occasions with mates etc. David Beckham was never world class, he was never rounded enough to call himself a world class player. He was a sublime dead ball taker and i applaud that, his long range passing was also sublime and im not knocking those aspects of his game.

But with the ball at his feet was Beckham in the same league as Xavi, Inestia,Zidane, Figo, Ronaldinho and the like? Those are world class midfielders, players who are technically gifted, players that can beat a man with flare and who have imagination. When Ronaldinho and Zidane (just two examples) were in there prime i used to switch on the tv and honestly didn't know what to expect. Its a similar feeling to when Gazza was at his best for Lazio, these players are special talents. And wat annoys me is that people are so quick to put him in that sort of company, were you ever excited watching Beckham would be my question? I certainly wasn't. Did i admire his range of passing and his free kicks, yes but i struggled to see what else he brought to the table.

Maybe Jordan your interpretation of World Class is different to mine. World class for me means you are in the top bracket of players for your position, as i said Zidane and the like were a class above Beckham.

I'd agree with this. Beckham was a very good player but he was also hugely overrated. There was a time when Michael Owen could single handedly destroy teams (the 2001 F.A Cup Final being the obvious choice) whereas Beckham never quite reached this level. As you've said an excellent dead ball specialist but never close to being one of the best midfielders of his time. If Owen would have stayed fit, he just might have reached those heights for a short period of time.

[InCider]

Does position not come into it too? For example, if we're talking worldclass strikers I would wager the following would definitely be among it:

Rooney, Villa, Eto'o. Sure there's a few more though.

Well, yes. Again open to interpretation though. You rarely hear of defenders or goalkeepers being classed amongst the best. Who's to say Vidic is any worse at what he does than say Ronaldo? It does annoy me when people discuss 'the best player in the World' at any given time. Players have different strengths and weaknesses. Okay, we all know that Messi is better than Bas Savage (just mind you!), but is Kaka any better than Michael Essien. You just can't compare the two really, but that's what makes the game so great to discuss.

[Jordan Tansley]

Beckham is without doubt the best right winger/midfielder I have ever seen, He was world class (In my book) for a number of reasons.

1)Arguably the best set piece taker ever, Corners, free kicks and for a while before nations cheated by putting sand instead of penalty spots, pens.

2) His vision from anywhere on the pitch, with or without the ball was impeccable. He was never blessed with the dribbling ability of Messi, Ronaldo etc, but he had the know how to get in behind when he had to.

3) His crossing in open play meant he didn't need to beat people. He always found a yard and got such whip on the ball that it was nigh on impossible for a keeper or defender to do anything about it. I've never seen anyone as consistently good in this regard. Ronaldo is touted as a great world class player, but when he played on the wing his crossing was generally **** and it wasn't until he played more centrally he became effective. Beckham would wipe the floor with him.

4 & 5) His defensive ability and willingness to run his heart out for club and country. An underestimated attribute, but Beckham is probably the main reason a player as distinctly average as Gary Neville made it at the top for so long. Beckhams willingness (If not need) to sit a little deeper and allow Neville to overlap papered over Nevilles obvious frailties as a defender. You never see the likes of Ronaldo and Zidane putting in the yards and tackles that David Beckham did. If Beckham is anything he is world class in terms of attitude and effort.

I've got no personal allegiances to DB in that I support his sides or anything, In fact I'm one of the most vociferous "haters" of Man U around... But even I can give the due credit to him. He was a world class midfielder and should always be remembered as such in my book.

[InCider]

Beckham is without doubt the best right winger/midfielder I have ever seen, He was world class (In my book) for a number of reasons.

1)Arguably the best set piece taker ever, Corners, free kicks and for a while before nations cheated by putting sand instead of penalty spots, pens.

2) His vision from anywhere on the pitch, with or without the ball was impeccable. He was never blessed with the dribbling ability of Messi, Ronaldo etc, but he had the know how to get in behind when he had to.

3) His crossing in open play meant he didn't need to beat people. He always found a yard and got such whip on the ball that it was nigh on impossible for a keeper or defender to do anything about it. I've never seen anyone as consistently good in this regard. Ronaldo is touted as a great world class player, but when he played on the wing his crossing was generally **** and it wasn't until he played more centrally he became effective. Beckham would wipe the floor with him.

4 & 5) His defensive ability and willingness to run his heart out for club and country. An underestimated attribute, but Beckham is probably the main reason a player as distinctly average as Gary Neville made it at the top for so long. Beckhams willingness (If not need) to sit a little deeper and allow Neville to overlap papered over Nevilles obvious frailties as a defender. You never see the likes of Ronaldo and Zidane putting in the yards and tackles that David Beckham did. If Beckham is anything he is world class in terms of attitude and effort.

I've got no personal allegiances to DB in that I support his sides or anything, In fact I'm one of the most vociferous "haters" of Man U around... But even I can give the due credit to him. He was a world class midfielder and should always be remembered as such in my book.

Good assessment. I remember that game against Greece where we had to win to qualify for the World Cup. Okay, it is best remembered for his freekick, but his all round performance was out of this world. He was just ****ing everywhere. He grabbed the team by the scruff of the neck and dragged us through that game almost single-handedly. I would compare it to Gerrard's performance in the Istanbul final for Liverpool or Roy Keane v Juventus. Best individual performances I have ever seen. Not exactly one-offs for those players either.

[Mr Popodopolous]

He was very good, no doubt about it. Maybe he was world class, certainly one of our best technically I'd suggest, not to mention the best free kick taker etc. Would say though, best right winger? Some accolade that- in a generation when we have seen the likes of Figo and Ronaldo from Portugal alone, Ribery at his best was another. Having said that, my memory may be hazy but those are the only 4 top class right wingers I can recall from the last decade and a bit- surely there were more?

[The Batman]

re beckham, for a set piece specialist, only 17 goals for england. as England were guaranteed a free kick in a scoring postion every game. That dont say too much about him.

People rant on about his free kick vs Greece, nobody remembers all the ones he missed in the other 89 mins of that game.

Back to the topic, England under Crapello is so dull to watch, not only at the stadium but also on the tv. How on earth we are 4th in the world must be FIFA trying to get back in favour with us somehow.

Mind you, as said above, this is to do with lack of fixtures for the South American clubs. They really need to review the points system.

You may as well not worry about Spain not being anywhere except top. If they aint, then they really really need to review the points system.

[NiceRed]

Back to the original post, clearly England don't deserve to be 4th. However, given we've reached the QFs or last 16 in every international tournament since 2000 (apart from Euro '08), we are always going to be guaranteed somewhere between 5th and 16th.

A bit of perspective needed from some people also when comparing us to other countries. France, for instance, had an even worse World Cup than us, and lost at home to Belarus in the current qualifiers. (Though they looked much better than us in a recent friendly) Italy, like France, had a worse World Cup than us, and recently couldn't beat Ireland over 2 games in the qualifiers. England aren't the only country that sometimes doesn't beat so-called "lesser" countries.

[Alex_BCFC]

re beckham, for a set piece specialist, only 17 goals for england. as England were guaranteed a free kick in a scoring postion every game. That dont say too much about him.

People rant on about his free kick vs Greece, nobody remembers all the ones he missed in the other 89 mins of that game.

He was sensational in that game and basically carried England single handedly to the world cup.

I think when he was in the midfield of Scholes, Keane and Giggs, he was world class but things seemed to go downhill when he went to Real Madrid.

At one point he seemed able to get a cross in even if the defender was tight on him as he would just bend it round them.

[nebristolred]

This sums him up for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kKtQkYdfoo

[Bar BS3]

read my post mate. Football is a matter of opinions. I think you will find many in the footballing world would also share my sentiments.

BTW, here are a few definitions of world class ''Ranking among the foremost in the world'' ''of an international standard of excellence; of the highest order''.

If you think Mr Beckham was up there with Zidane and the like then fair play, imo he was way off this standard.

I think the problem actually boils down to the way people interpret the word ''world class''. Its a word that should be used with great caution but many just band it about as if it means very little.

I actually agree with you on DB. Many will not though.

Was it George Best or Denis Law (can't remember) summed Beckham up perfectly once when he said...

"He can't head, can't tackle, he's got no pace and no left foot. Other than that he isn't a bad player!"

[Greedo]

Single handedly got England to the world cup with that kick in the final minute.

The thing is, I don't think that there were many others on the planet who could have done that at the time.

England legend. 'nuff said.

[Bar BS3]

I'll argue against Beckham is the best set peice taker... Ever! or what ever

Tifron Ivanov

Jose Luis Chilavert

Sinisa Milhaljovic

Juninho Pernambucano.

Roberto Baggio

Zico

Diego Maradona

Ronald Koeman

among others all say hi!

I believe im right in saying that even players like Ian Harte had better averages with both hitting the target AND scoring from set pieces than DB did, even in his prime.

No doubt he was a very good play, probably one of Englands best. But i have always thought that he was highly overrated in comparison to his actual all round footballing ability.

[Bris Red]

England legend. 'nuff said.

Bobby Charlton, Geoff Hurst, Jimmy Greaves, Gordan Banks need i go on? Those are the real ''england legends'' in my opinion. Its wrong to put Beckham up with them.

But yh fair play we all have our different opinions on him.

[nebristolred]

Beckham is definitely there with them. Michael Owen probably too, given the amount of important goals he scored for us.

[Bris Red]

Beckham is definitely there with them. Michael Owen probably too, given the amount of important goals he scored for us.

So David Beckham's name can be said in the same sentance as the 66 team, the only English men to ever win a major trophy for us? Thats a bit disrespectful to them dont you think?

DB for me will go down in history as a failure for England. How can you say otherwise?

[NiceRed]

DB for me will go down in history as a failure for England. How can you say otherwise?

So by that measure, the following would be "failures" for England:

Gary Lineker, Billy Wright, Peter Shilton, Peter Beardsley, Stuart Pearce, Kevin Keegan, Tom Finney, Nat Lofthouse??

[The Batman]

i know where this is going so i am gonna start it to get it out the way

Greatest ever England 11

go.....

3-1-4-2..... :-)

Gordon Banks

Billy Wright

Bobby Moore

Tony Adams

Duncan Edwards

Stanley Matthews

Bryan Robson

Bobby Charlton

Tom Finney

Jimmy Greaves

Gary Lineker.

Normally I would say John Atyeo instead of Lineker. For the youngsters who read this, he played 6 games for England, scored 5 goals and England didn't lose any of them.

Should have gone to 58 world cup. he scored the goal that put them into the world cup, ala the beckham free kick arguement above. . . . . :-)