Red_Jim Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 But I wouldn't ever believe that cus I have my children to make life worth living Shut up and stop tarnishing a thread of condolences. It's not the time or place. Your views are not important right now, what is important is showing respect to Gary Speed and his family - nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orj Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 It's understandable that you should say that, but the sad fact is, it's not as simple as that. It isn't? I mean this question honestly and fairly. Do you think that Gary Speed believed he was doing the right thing by his children in the moments before he kicked the chair away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderPunk Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 It isn't? I mean this question honestly and fairly. Do you think that Gary Speed believed he was doing the right thing by his children in the moments before he kicked the chair away? His mind wouldn't have been capable of rational thought so it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Was in total shock when i heard this. Spot on, my Father has Cronic Depression and it is destructive as i have experienced.... Deepest condolences to his family RIP Gary I really hope your father gets better, unfortunately some people think that a helpful "cheer up it might never happen" will cure clinical depression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Shut up and stop tarnishing a thread of condolences. It's not the time or place. Your views are not important right now, what is important is showing respect to Gary Speed and his family - nothing else. Respect to his family and what they are going through, certainly. Respect to him, no. How can you after what he has done to his loved ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 It isn't? I mean this question honestly and fairly. Do you think that Gary Speed believed he was doing the right thing by his children in the moments before he kicked the chair away? Depression is a mental illness, a serious mental illness at that... so I ask this question honestly and fairly, do YOU believe that someone with a serious mental illness has the power of rational thought?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderPunk Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Have a read of this for a bit of insight, written in the early hours of Saturday morning by Stan Collymore. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ecoqm1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orj Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 His mind wouldn't have been capable of rational thought so it's possible. His mind was capable of rational thought, as evidenced by the lucid, rational discussion he had on the television at lunchtime on Saturday. Is the suggestion, therefore, that he suffered from a bout of temporary insanity? I'm not being facetious - I just can't fathom how a father can go from being able to articulate a reasoned, considered point of view to, a few hours later, thinking that he was doing the right thing by his children by taking his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Depression is a mental illness, a serious mental illness at that... so I ask this question honestly and fairly, do YOU believe that someone with a serious mental illness has the power of rational thought?? There is rational thought and then there is the decision to leave yourself hanging from the ceiling knowing your wife or two young children will have to walk into a room to find you there. You know what this will do to them yet chose to do it anyway cus its the easiest way out for you. It's weak and cowardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 It isn't? I mean this question honestly and fairly. Do you think that Gary Speed believed he was doing the right thing by his children in the moments before he kicked the chair away? The idea that someone can just snap out of it kind of flies in the face of modern science and medicine, many mental disorders have associated differences in brain chemistry and activity and are as provably a physical illness as any other kind even though the field is in it's infancy. Your question is easily answered by another: Do you think someone suffering from a mental disorder of evaluates data properly and makes rational decisions enough that they can reason themselves out of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderPunk Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 His mind was capable of rational thought, as evidenced by the lucid, rational discussion he had on the television at lunchtime on Saturday. Is the suggestion, therefore, that he suffered from a bout of temporary insanity? I'm not being facetious - I just can't fathom how a father can go from being able to articulate a reasoned, considered point of view to, a few hours later, thinking that he was doing the right thing by his children by taking his life. That's what I'd put it down to yes. If you're that interested in the subject, and I'm not being facetious either, then do some reading up on the subject, there are many documented instances of this very thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderPunk Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 I've had enough now. Rest In Peace Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sglosbcfc Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 There is a rumour that he was to be 'outed' by a newspaper for having gay affairs. Really hope that is not true because if it is they have to live with a young man dead, a family destroyed and if their paper was ever implicated - a paper destroyed. Gary Speed 'Football Legend' - RIP Speed Family - May God be with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orj Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Depression is a mental illness, a serious mental illness at that... so I ask this question honestly and fairly, do YOU believe that someone with a serious mental illness has the power of rational thought?? I don't refute that depression is a serious mental illness but I do refute that Gary Speed was a man who lacked the power of rational thought. As evidenced by his ability to hold a coherent, reasoned discussion on Saturday, he was demonstrably capable of understanding that he would be subjecting his boys to a lifetime of torture by taking his own life. I don't think it belittles his difficulties (assuming we're not barking up the wrong tree with the depression line of discussion) but ultimately, with any parent who decides to hang themselves, a conscious decision is made to rig up the paraphernalia and a decision is made that it's more important to escape those difficulties than it is to be there for your children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I don't refute that depression is a serious mental illness but I do refute that Gary Speed was a man who lacked the power of rational thought. If someone's mentally ill their ability to be rational can change from one moment to the next, let alone a few hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orj Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 The idea that someone can just snap out of it kind of flies in the face of modern science and medicine, many mental disorders have associated differences in brain chemistry and activity and are as provably a physical illness as any other kind even though the field is in it's infancy. Your question is easily answered by another: Do you think someone suffering from a mental disorder of evaluates data properly and makes rational decisions enough that they can reason themselves out of it? The man who appeared on television on Saturday afternoon was capable of making rational decisions but, of course, I can't argue that at some point during the next 18 hours his ability to do so became compromised. If that's the case, it's unquestionably very, very sad. By the same token, you can't refute the possibility, nay probability, that some people who commit suicide do so while capable of rational thought, and that they simply consider their own difficulties ahead of the difficulties of those they leave behind. Mental illness is a horrible, horrible illness but it ought not to be used to excuse those who knowingly leave a trail of destruction behind them - especially when that trail of destruction includes lives that they were responsible for creating in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I don't refute that depression is a serious mental illness but I do refute that Gary Speed was a man who lacked the power of rational thought. As evidenced by his ability to hold a coherent, reasoned discussion on Saturday, he was demonstrably capable of understanding that he would be subjecting his boys to a lifetime of torture by taking his own life. I don't think it belittles his difficulties (assuming we're not barking up the wrong tree with the depression line of discussion) but ultimately, with any parent who decides to hang themselves, a conscious decision is made to rig up the paraphernalia and a decision is made that it's more important to escape those difficulties than it is to be there for your children. He was ill, simple as that and he obviously did a good job of hiding the fact that he was ill (like many with depression). He gets my sympathy as does his kids as both he and they are victims of his illness. They no longer have a dad and he will not see them grow up, unfortunately too many people who suffer from depression dont get help because they fear that people will judge them in a negative way. As I said earlier in the thread anyone who thinks that Gary Speed or anybody else who takes their own life would put their families through that if they weren't seriously mentally ill is either ignorant or blinkered to how desperate someone has to be to take that action. As for those who claim it is a weak or cowardly act to commit, fair enough if thats what you think but i have witnessed someone voluntarily step off a platform in front of an oncoming train. That takes balls or desperation, my money is on desperation (btw, he had kids as well). Anyway, once again RIP Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 The man who appeared on television on Saturday afternoon was capable of making rational decisions but, of course, I can't argue that at some point during the next 18 hours his ability to do so became compromised. If that's the case, it's unquestionably very, very sad. By the same token, you can't refute the possibility, nay probability, that some people who commit suicide do so while capable of rational thought, and that they simply consider their own difficulties ahead of the difficulties of those they leave behind. Mental illness is a horrible, horrible illness but it ought not to be used to excuse those who knowingly leave a trail of destruction behind them - especially when that trail of destruction includes lives that they were responsible for creating in the first place. I probably could dispute that actually along the simple lines that for me, suicide isn't rational by definition. However this isn't the time or place for a tangent like that. The main point I'd make is that acknowledging the massive unknowns, throwing blame around is completely inappropriate. RIP Gary Speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orj Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 He was ill, simple as that. He was? I don't know if he was or wasn't but you speak as though you do. How do you know this? Is it possible to commit suicide while also being capable of rational thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orj Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I probably could dispute that actually along the simple lines that for me, suicide isn't rational by definition. However this isn't the time or place for a tangent like that. The main point I'd make is that acknowledging the massive unknowns, throwing blame around is completely inappropriate. RIP Gary Speed. Plenty of people have taken their lives because they fear the consequences of continuing to live. The rationale for them is that the escape is less painful than facing up to whatever it is they fear, be it bullying, the exposure of a skeleton in their closet, having to go to prison, an impending debt payment deadline, fear of humiliation, the list goes on. In many instances, people have evaluated their options and rationalised that suicide is the least worst option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 He was? I don't know if he was or wasn't but you speak as though you do. How do you know this? Is it possible to commit suicide while also being capable of rational thought What? you think that the act of suicide could ever possibly fall within the realms of normal human behaviour? Why do think he did it then Orj? fancied a bit of attention? Some people use rational thought to end their own life through services like Dignitas, so of course its possible but given the circumstances it certainly seems that depression of some kind has driven him to do this. Either way mentally, physically or both... illness has to play a part in killing yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 be it bullying, the exposure of a skeleton in their closet, having to go to prison, an impending debt payment deadline, fear of humiliation, the list goes on. So basically the sort of things that can cause stress and anxiety disorders that in turn can cause depression, a mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrizleCiderArmy Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Is it possible to commit suicide while also being capable of rational thought? If you're capable of rational thought then you wouldn't be committing suicide as you would try and seek help. Having personally suffered from severe depression for over 10 years i know how it works and some of the things said on this thread are damn right ignorant and naive. R.I.P Gary. Full condolences out to your family and friends at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonwheeler Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 There is a rumour that he was to be 'outed' by a newspaper for having gay affairs. Really hope that is not true because if it is they have to live with a young man dead, a family destroyed and if their paper was ever implicated - a paper destroyed. Gary Speed 'Football Legend' - RIP Speed Family - May God be with you. Have heard same. "If" correct then whichever SCUM tabloid piece of toilet paper that was planning to run such a story must be closed immediately? If the owners dont have it on their own consciences to shut their paper down then ALL TRUE FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS must immediately never ever buy or be associated with said paper - surely the lost sales alone would force closure. This is the very least that all of us in the football family owe Gary Speed, his family and his friends. Gary Speed RIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWurzel Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 If you're capable of rational thought then you wouldn't be committing suicide as you would try and seek help. Having personally suffered from severe depression for over 10 years i know how it works and some of the things said on this thread are damn right ignorant and naive. R.I.P Gary. Full condolences out to your family and friends at this time. With all due respect, is it any more ignorant or naive than people assuming he was clinically depressed? At this point in time no one knows the facts and the theories range from depression to homosexuality about to be revealed by the media, yet everyone is talking as if they know the circumstances and he was struggling with mental illness. Surely the most respectful thing to do is to not speculate either way and just say RIP and feel saddened by a loss to football of a true professional, and to leave the motives out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm appalled at some of the comments, frankly, when nobody has any idea what caused him to take his own life. RIP Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Van Ryn Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 With all due respect, is it any more ignorant or naive than people assuming he was clinically depressed? At this point in time no one knows the facts and the theories range from depression to homosexuality about to be revealed by the media, yet everyone is talking as if they know the circumstances and he was struggling with mental illness. Surely the most respectful thing to do is to not speculate either way and just say RIP and feel saddened by a loss to football of a true professional, and to leave the motives out of it. Ditto, RIP Gary and thoughts with your family and friends at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 His mind was capable of rational thought, as evidenced by the lucid, rational discussion he had on the television at lunchtime on Saturday. Is the suggestion, therefore, that he suffered from a bout of temporary insanity? I'm not being facetious - I just can't fathom how a father can go from being able to articulate a reasoned, considered point of view to, a few hours later, thinking that he was doing the right thing by his children by taking his life. Fact of the matter, most people who commit Suicide appear happy and jovial before committing suicide because at last they can see a way out. Probably why he looked happy on TV What he did it for only he and his family should no that, no one else,it is none of our business If it was depression, or something else, none of our business. Hope you found peace Gary, from what ever caused you to do this. I really hope his family can get past this, I can't imagine what they are going through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keep the Faith Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 When I heard this news on Sunday morning I was really shocked and saddened. I tried to think of other professional footballers whose untimely death would prompt such strong emotion. I couldn't think of many that would have had the impact as Gary Speed. Just seemed to be one of footballs good guys, widely respected and liked. Anyone would have like to have a Gary Speed in their team. A real shame this and that's before you even think of his family. An unsung hero and a great loss. RIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Jim Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm appalled at some of the comments, frankly, when nobody has any idea what caused him to take his own life. RIP Gary. Me too - I can't believe the ignorance and lack of respect being shown by some people. Your opinions,and having the crassness to debate whether someone who has taken their own life is 'cowardly' is unbelievable. The man suffered enough - just drop it. Try and imagine what he must have been going through. RIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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