Uk Forced Out Of Europe

[Calculus]

Did we talk about half of the UK's exports going to the EU´, yet ?

No not yet, although that number is very over-stated due to the so called Rotterdam effect.

We also haven't discussed the fact that in 2009 (the last year that I have numbers for) the UK imported £16bn more from Germany than it exported to Germany. In the case of France we only imported £3bn more than we exported.

We also haven't discussed the enormous net contributions we make to the EU budget.

No one has so far speculated on the likely reaction of peoples to years of austerity at the behest of the failed theory that the Euro represents.

No doubt you, living in Dusseldorf, will be able to confirm that the German people are happy to bank roll this charade for ever (and if so, tell me why your government has been secretly printing Deutchmarks "just in case").

Not that I know what the solution is, but I do know that it is important that the UK and Germany/France in particular reach an accommodation. Don't run away with the idea that a UK pushed to the extremities by Merkozy isn't anything other than a disaster for the EU as well as the UK.

BTW, some years ago I probably thought that a well-managed Euro could be a good idea economically, but that disappeared when someone decided that everybody could join, regardless of the state of their economies. At that point politics had taken over what should have been an economic project and for that reason I think the project doomed and wouldn't join. Can't understand why German people want to be part of this - perhaps you could explain.

[Fiale]

[Red-Robbo]

[Fiale]

So what bit of that do you contest?

Just about all of it, writing things with hindsight and not within the context of the reality of the time is childish. To start a article on a recent decision on the EU with that preamble even more so.

[Red-Robbo]

Just about all of it, writing things with hindsight and not within the context of the reality of the time is childish. To start a article on a recent decision on the EU with that preamble even more so.

Will Hutton is a visiting professor at LSE, Bristol and Manchester universities, two Oxford colleges and various other academic institutions. He's also worked in the stock market. He knows what he's on about.

If you don't like the historical background bit, skip to the bits about the EU.

[CiderHider]

[Fiale]

Will Hutton is a visiting professor at LSE, Bristol and Manchester universities, two Oxford colleges and various other academic institutions. He's also worked in the stock market. He knows what he's on about.

If you don't like the historical background bit, skip to the bits about the EU.

I do not know him outside of hearing about various reports he is advising on, there again I am not a Guardian reader. Quickly looking at our friend wiki - alarm bells for many start to go off, he studied his degree in Paris, spent 10 years at the BBC, four years as editor-in-chief at The Observer and director of the Guardian National Newspapers. He is a governor of London School of Economics, and a trustee of the Scott Trust that owns the Guardian Media Group. His Work Foundation went into insolvency and had to be bought out by a university, the Foundation has a £27m black-hole of unfunded pension liabilities.

I notice he advocated us joining the Euro in 1999, and in 2002 he said that the Euro would not suffer crisis and such suggestions were wishful thinking and scaremongering. He even went on to say that should the Euro ever have issues countries should vastly increase their deficits. In 2008 he said that we should join the Euro instantly to avoid national bankruptcy.

It would seem he is no better at judging the moment than those he criticised with hindsight.

[Red-Robbo]

Well, I'm not suggesting he walks on water Mr F!

However it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that he and all other commentators make (who aren't government cheerleaders) that the only beneficiary of Cameron's action are those banks and fund managers involved in casino capitalism. Sarkozy and Merkel (and the IMF!) are hardly lefty figures but they see the merit in curbing this sector of the economy as its activities - basically - put at risk the fragile recovery and are a massive cost to the rest of the economy.

Regarding the wider issue of the EU, I am less of an enthusiast than Hutton, but I sadly conclude that we are too entwined in it to just referendum ourselves out. You can't turn back the clock and develop a trading Commonwealth as we had in 1972 - those countries have developed their own overseas partnerships in the time we've been married to the European mainland. The economic convulsions of leaving the union would offset any gains. Cammy - although a self-proclaimed eurosceptic - knows this too.

The real thing that needs to happen is the genuine reform of the CAP - the thing that soaks money away from the UK and represents 48% of all EU spending. The need to renogotiate something which costs almost half the budget on a sector responsible for just 1.6% of European GDP (and which keeps food prices artificially high for everyone) is obvious. But Cameron's actions on the CAP have been just hot air. He knows the biggest recepients of European money are large landowners - like his family!

Hutton's conclusions - that it will be impossible to drive a changing agenda through the EU when we are a minority of one in the organisation - is undoubtedly true.

[The Red Planet]

An interesting read there.

+1. Excellent analysis by Fiale and very well written.

[Fiale]

Well, I'm not suggesting he walks on water Mr F!

Will Jesus Hutton would have a rather festive feel to it though

Sarkozy and Merkel (and the IMF!) are hardly lefty figures but they see the merit in curbing this sector of the economy as its activities - basically - put at risk the fragile recovery and are a massive cost to the rest of the economy.

This is the part I find strange. If the Eurozone members want to introduce these measures including a Tobin tax then they can, they would however only effect those members using the Euro. If these measures really will protect the Euro and prevent wild dealing and speculation for Euro zone members economies then it is in their interest to introduce it (regardless of what EU countries outside the Euro do). They will not however, as they know it will hurt the finance sector in their countries, so they need to entrap the City of London into the regulations as well. The problem is they will not do it as London will suck up their financial business, London will not do it because there are numerous countries that would willing suck up our financial sector. Pretty much a case of everyone being damned no matter what they do

Regarding the wider issue of the EU, I am less of an enthusiast than Hutton, but I sadly conclude that we are too entwined in it to just referendum ourselves out. You can't turn back the clock and develop a trading Commonwealth as we had in 1972 - those countries have developed their own overseas partnerships in the time we've been married to the European mainland. The economic convulsions of leaving the union would offset any gains. Cammy - although a self-proclaimed eurosceptic - knows this too.

The real thing that needs to happen is the genuine reform of the CAP - the thing that soaks money away from the UK and represents 48% of all EU spending. The need to renogotiate something which costs almost half the budget on a sector responsible for just 1.6% of European GDP (and which keeps food prices artificially high for everyone) is obvious. But Cameron's actions on the CAP have been just hot air. He knows the biggest recepients of European money are large landowners - like his family!

Hutton's conclusions - that it will be impossible to drive a changing agenda through the EU when we are a minority of one in the organisation - is undoubtedly true.

I agree we put to may eggs in the EU basket when we had a free commonwealth market to participate in as well. I would like us to take the same route as Norway and Switzerland (the 2 countries with the highest European GDP/per capita) and just become members of the European Free Trade Association. There is no reason a company trading only in the UK or China, Brazil etc should have to follow EU specifications and regulations, they should just need to meet that of the country they are exporting to.

I hate CAP, the Fisheries policies, the tariffs the EU puts on good being imported, the subsidies the EU gives to companies to remain competitive... we need to open up entirely to trade and let economies and markets find their true levels.

[Fiale]

+1. Excellent analysis by Fiale and very well written.

It was the Spectator that it appeared in originally, I copied it from a blog.

[Red-Robbo]

I agree we put to may eggs in the EU basket when we had a free commonwealth market to participate in as well. I would like us to take the same route as Norway and Switzerland (the 2 countries with the highest European GDP/per capita) and just become members of the European Free Trade Association. There is no reason a company trading only in the UK or China, Brazil etc should have to follow EU specifications and regulations, they should just need to meet that of the country they are exporting to.

I hate CAP, the Fisheries policies, the tariffs the EU puts on good being imported, the subsidies the EU gives to companies to remain competitive... we need to open up entirely to trade and let economies and markets find their true levels.

Hmmm. Would it work though, Fiale? Norway and Switzerland are much smaller economies and their high GDPs are based on oil and providing banking services to the world's crooks, respectively.

Sometimes being in a bloc is the only way to hammer down the sort of tariff barriers that the likes of Japan and South Korea fling up. I'd hate us to be the billy-no-mates of the international economy.

[Nibor]

[Mr Popodopolous]

Hmmm. Would it work though, Fiale? Norway and Switzerland are much smaller economies and their high GDPs are based on oil and providing banking services to the world's crooks, respectively.

On this matter, it is true- I'd say in this regard we're a little unlucky population size wise. We fall into some kind of middle zone, caught between two stools. Not small enough a'la Norway and Switzerland to get the oil and gas and put it in a trust fund as they have, given size of population- or like Switzerland, small enough to get enough taxable revenue from a banking sector. Not big enough though, e.g. 100m+ in a developed/rapidly developing nation to go it alone to some degree. Might be wrong but get this feeling.

Switzerland's external liabilities btw- assume mostly banking- far from small!! Though about on a par with us.

http://ryankett.hubp...b/External-Debt

[The Red Planet]

These are very worrying times and the bad news is, I think this is just the start of a financial crisis throughout Europe that will make the banking crisis of 2008 look like a kiddies tea party.

The basic problem is that we (most Europeans and certainly the UK included) have been paying ourselves more than the wealth we actually create for years, with most countries consequently gradually accumulating ballooning debts and ever increasing interest payments. Absurd regulations dreamed up by unelected, grossly overpaid beaurocrats in Brussels have helped to make us globally uncompetitive (although Germany has been something of an exception to that trend) and over generous welfare payments have added fuel to the fire.

The party is over and when (as it surely must) Greece defaults on due debt repayment, the write-offs by banks and other institutions that have lent them money will cause massive knock-on effects. The big French banks are particularly over exposed to Greek debt.

We are going to see runs on banks, with those scary queues of people desperate to withdraw deposits, as we saw with Northern Rock.

Then stand by for defaults by at least one really big economy - Italy and Spain have shed loads of short term debt maturing (due for repayment and re-financing) in the first half of 2012.

The only way to stop this happening is for the ECB to pump huge amounts of new money into the Eurozone, which will eventually lead to rampant inflation, just the thing the Germans fear most.

If you are fortunate enough to have some savings, keep it in Pounds (obviously) and choose your bank (or other deposit taker) carefully. Right now HSBC is probably the safest UK bank with Barclays not far behind. Or go for one of the few remaining mutual (owned by their members) building societies.

And there are severe storms on the way in from the Atlantic this evening.

Have a nice day !!

[Mr Mosquito]

You castigate (rightly) Labour for failing to stop the decline of British manufacturing, but then reckon they are Marxists. If they were Marxists they would nationalise Industry, not bring in God-awful PPF initiatives. I'd read up on political economy if I were you.

As for being public school educated, the Milibands went to a comp, as did the majority of the shadow cabinet (and as did Gordon Brown for that matter!)

Not sure the relavance of that, but that's the truth of the matter.

The BBC and the Labour Party promote cultural Marxism, the following excerpt is from an article by Paul Dacre of the Guardian newspaper !!!!!!!!.......

"what really disturbs me is that the BBC is, in every corpuscle of its corporate body, against the values of conservatism, with a small "c", which, I would argue, just happens to be the values held by millions of Britons. Thus it exercises a kind of "cultural Marxism" in which it tries to undermine that conservative society by turning all its values on their heads.Of course, there is the odd dissenting voice, but by and large BBC journalism starts from the premise of leftwing ideology: it is hostile to conservatism and the traditional right, Britain's past and British values, America, Ulster unionism, Euroscepticism, capitalism and big business, the countryside, Christianity and family values. Conversely, it is sympathetic to Labour, European federalism, the state and state spending, mass immigration, minority rights, multiculturalism, alternative lifestyles, abortion, and progressiveness in the education and the justice systems."

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jan/24/comment.comment

[GrahamC]

The BBC and the Labour Party promote cultural Marxism, the following excerpt is from an article by Paul Dacre of the Guardian newspaper !!!!!!!!.......

"what really disturbs me is that the BBC is, in every corpuscle of its corporate body, against the values of conservatism, with a small "c", which, I would argue, just happens to be the values held by millions of Britons. Thus it exercises a kind of "cultural Marxism" in which it tries to undermine that conservative society by turning all its values on their heads.Of course, there is the odd dissenting voice, but by and large BBC journalism starts from the premise of leftwing ideology: it is hostile to conservatism and the traditional right, Britain's past and British values, America, Ulster unionism, Euroscepticism, capitalism and big business, the countryside, Christianity and family values. Conversely, it is sympathetic to Labour, European federalism, the state and state spending, mass immigration, minority rights, multiculturalism, alternative lifestyles, abortion, and progressiveness in the education and the justice systems."

Source: http://www.guardian....comment.comment

Paul Dacre is actually the editor of the ultra right wing Daily Mail, (as the article says), so his views are hardly worth reading, but why let the truth get in the way of spouting more bollocks?

[Mr Mosquito]

Paul Dacre is actually the editor of the ultra right wing Daily Mail, (as the article says), so his views are hardly worth reading, but why let the truth get in the way of spouting more bollocks?

The Guardian published the article not the Daily Mail. The Labour Party does not represent the British working class and the lower middle class as it was set up to do by the Trades Union movement. None of my work colleagues like the EU and most of them want out of it. About 70% of my work colleagues belong to a Trades Union.

[Red-Robbo]

The BBC and the Labour Party promote cultural Marxism, the following excerpt is from an article by Paul Dacre of the Guardian newspaper !!!!!!!!.......

That would be the BBC that has at the head of its governors a Conservative peer, has a former head of Conservative Students as its chief political correspondent and where the former head of 'editorial balance' left to become David Cameron's press officer? Sounds like a nest of lefties

Dacre has a commercial axe to grind with the Beeb - as well as being as mad as a box of frogs - but I'm surprised to see you Gobbers quoting the multi-millionaire editor of the paper that used to support Hitler. Surely you can see he has hardly got van objective view of the matter.

[Mr Mosquito]

That would be the BBC that has at the head of its governors a Conservative peer, has a former head of Conservative Students as its chief political correspondent and where the former head of 'editorial balance' left to become David Cameron's press officer? Sounds like a nest of lefties

Dacre has a commercial axe to grind with the Beeb - as well as being as mad as a box of frogs - but I'm surprised to see you Gobbers quoting the multi-millionaire editor of the paper that used to support Hitler. Surely you can see he has hardly got van objective view of the matter.

Again the 'left/ right of politics' is another BBC paradigm. Many 'left wing' people I know are actually against the EU as they see it as a rich man's cartel that exploits workers. I, personally, see the EU as an enemy alien organisation with its roots in Herr Adolf Hitler's 3rd Reich and the cultural Marxism of the German Frankfurt School. Having written that, in terms of the BBC, there's much I like about the BBC - especially the views of Jeremy Clarkson on BBC Top Gear.

[Red-Robbo]

So, are you suggesting there is some sort of pro-EU bias in the BBC and the Labour Party. There are a fair number of Eurosceptic Labour MPs - Tony Benn being perhaps the longest running critic of the organisation.

I'd agree with you that 'the Labour Party' no longer represents the views of working class people, but what exactly does the term 'working class' now mean? BUT that's a discussion for another thread....

[The Red Planet]

Again the 'left/ right of politics' is another BBC paradigm. Many 'left wing' people I know are actually against the EU as they see it as a rich man's cartel that exploits workers. I, personally, see the EU as an enemy alien organisation with its roots in Herr Adolf Hitler's 3rd Reich and the cultural Marxism of the German Frankfurt School. Having written that, in terms of the BBC, there's much I like about the BBC - especially the views of Jeremy Clarkson on BBC Top Gear.

The only reason the apparatiks at the BBC have kept Clarkson on the BBC is that the show gets huge audience ratings and generates a lot of income from sales abroad.

You can be sure that your average BBC staff member detests the man.

Dacre was spot on. The licence fee (tax) must go and the BBC can try standing on their own two feet in the harsh commercial world.

[Mr Mosquito]

So, are you suggesting there is some sort of pro-EU bias in the BBC and the Labour Party. There are a fair number of Eurosceptic Labour MPs - Tony Benn being perhaps the longest running critic of the organisation.

I'd agree with you that 'the Labour Party' no longer represents the views of working class people, but what exactly does the term 'working class' now mean? BUT that's a discussion for another thread....

Tony Benn is an extremely clever man - no doubt whatsoever about that as was Michael Foot who was also anti EEC/ EU. During the 1970s, Tony Benn actually did a massive amount of lobbying to help keep a bankrupted Rolls Royce open to help keep jobs for his East Bristol constituents. In contrast, New Labour did everything possible to help get Rolls Royce production shifted to East Germany. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown doth like to lick Frau Merkel's jackboots.

[Fiale]

Paul Dacre is actually the editor of the ultra right wing Daily Mail, (as the article says), so his views are hardly worth reading, but why let the truth get in the way of spouting more bollocks?

Remember the BBC impartiality seminar ? Andrew Marr stated, "The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It's a publicly funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities and gay people. It has a liberal bias not so much a party-political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias"

quoting the multi-millionaire editor of the paper that used to support Hitler. Surely you can see he has hardly got van objective view of the matter.

The Daily Mail never supported Hitler (you should be careful with such Libel), the Daily Mail wrote about and gave support to Oswald Moseley’s Blackshirts. In comparison the Daily Mirror actively asked people to join the Blackshirts

http://www.annaraccoon.com/politics/dark-side-of-the-daily-mirror/

"On Monday, 22 January, 1934 the Mirror ran the headline “Give the Blackshirts a helping hand”. The paper went one further than the Mail, urging readers to join Mosley’s British Union of Fascists, and giving the address to which to send membership applications.

“As a purely British organisation, the Blackshirts will respect those principles of tolerance which are traditional in British politics,” the Mirror told readers, complaining that “timid alarmists” had “been whimpering that the rapid growth in numbers of the British Blackshirts is preparing the way for a system of rulership by means of steel whips and concentration camps”.

This was nonsense, the Mirror said, the result of ignorance of the reality of “Blackshirt government” in Hitler’s Germany: “The notion that a permanent reign of terror exists there has been evolved entirely from their own morbid imaginations, fed by sensational propaganda from opponents of the party now in power.”

The paper added that anyone who had visited Germany or Mussolini’s Italy “would find that the mood of the vast majority of their inhabitants was not cowed submission but confident enthusiasm.”

So now that we know the Mirror group are even worse than the Daily Mail - so are we going to vilify everything the Mirror group write because of it's rampant support of fascists ?

The left are such hypocrites, always lashing out at others and trying to hide/forget the have done the same or worse.... just today we have the BBC and Labour party slamming MP Aiden Burley because at a party he attended someone dressed in a SS costume. It was not him that was dressed in it, and he had no control over what someone else wears but he gets demonized. One Labour staffer even said he should resign..... and lo and behold what happens, a picture of the Labour staffer stood next to a waxwork of Hitler appears and she is giving the *unacceptable word* salute - something she was not forced to do and did have control over - will she stand by her earlier comment and resign herself ???? yeah I doubt it either, or how about SS costume wearer Ed Balls ?

http://order-order.com/2011/12/12/charlotte-hale-hitler-salute-tweeting-labour-staffer-in-*unacceptable word*-hypocrisy/

[Mr Mosquito]

The only reason the apparatiks at the BBC have kept Clarkson on the BBC is that the show gets huge audience ratings and generates a lot of income from sales abroad.

You can be sure that your average BBC staff member detests the man.

Dacre was spot on. The licence fee (tax) must go and the BBC can try standing on their own two feet in the harsh commercial world.

Indeed, Dacre was spot on. The BBC could have done a lot more to support David Cameron's stance against signing yet another piece of paper that would have given the openly fascist EU project even more power over us.

[Mr Mosquito]

Remember the BBC impartiality seminar ? Andrew Marr stated, "The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It's a publicly funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities and gay people. It has a liberal bias not so much a party-political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias"

Not so much 'liberal' in my opinion, but no matter how much the BBC and New Labour try to deny it - they have been hijacked by cultural Marxists from the German Frankfurt School of thought.

[Red-Robbo]

The Daily Mail never supported Hitler (you should be careful with such Libel), the Daily Mail wrote about and gave support to Oswald Moseley's Blackshirts. In comparison the Daily Mirror actively asked people to join the Blackshirts

Um, you're wrong there. Rothermere wrote a personal editorial when Hitler came to power entitled Youth Triumphant and the paper also ran a headline (and praising editorial*) entitled Hitler Saves Germany From The Reds. They were pretty keen on Mussolini too.

All history from long-ago you could argue, but it is factually that the Mail has been on the far right fringes of British politics since it was founded.

* This is it:

"I urge all British young men and women to study closely the progress of the *unacceptable word* regime in Germany. They must not be misled by the misrepresentations of its opponents. The most spiteful distracters of the Nazis are to be found in precisely the same sections of the British public and press as are most vehement in their praises of the Soviet regime in Russia. They have started a clamorous campaign of denunciation against what they call "*unacceptable word* atrocities" which, as anyone who visits Germany quickly discovers for himself, consists merely of a few isolated acts of violence such as are inevitable among a nation half as big again as ours, but which have been generalized, multiplied and exaggerated to give the impression that *unacceptable word* rule is a bloodthirsty tyranny."

[Red-Robbo]

Not so much 'liberal' in my opinion, but no matter how much the BBC and New Labour try to deny it - they have been hijacked by cultural Marxists from the German Frankfurt School of thought.

Name and shame these cultural Marxists. And explain what you mean by the term please. Is Lord Patten a cultural Marxist? Was Craig Oliver? Is Nick Robinson? The BBC Scotland reporter who has just become Scottish Conservative chief?

How can the BBC that does not run editorials have 'supported David Cameron's stance'? Wouldn't that have broken its charter? It can run stories with the Cameron line, the anti-Cameron line, European reaction etc but it can't campaign on behalf of a political figure.

[Barrs Court Red]

Interestingly we've heard little but empty rhetoric on this issue from the leader of te opposition. Infact that's probably fair of each issue since milliband won the party leadership from probably the only possible winner from labour at the moment, his brother.

[Mr Mosquito]

Name and shame these cultural Marxists. And explain what you mean by the term please. Is Lord Patten a cultural Marxist? Was Craig Oliver? Is Nick Robinson? The BBC Scotland reporter who has just become Scottish Conservative chief?

How can the BBC that does not run editorials have 'supported David Cameron's stance'? Wouldn't that have broken its charter? It can run stories with the Cameron line, the anti-Cameron line, European reaction etc but it can't campaign on behalf of a political figure.

I'd define Frankfurt School cultural Marxism as a divide and conquer strategy aimed at dismantling Western Culture - mainly Anglo-American culture - from within to pave the way for Marxist revolution. I wouldn't envisage Lord Patten, Craig Oliver or Nick Robinson as cultural Marxists but you never know.

The BBC - as according to its charter - should represent the UK, its nations, regions and communities and not the interests of the EU that many British citizens - including me - deem as an enemy alien and fascist organisation.