You'll Never Walk Alone

[Cunnyfunt]

If any club in the country lost 96 fans teams would be wearing black armbands and rightly so.

That goes without saying.

[MichaelRobartes]

I know there is a line in football 'banter' and that shouldn't be crossed as far as they have done. Just shows you what a shithole Manchester is have no respect for others.

Sadly every club has a moronic (yet vocal) minority. I have had the pleasure of living in both Liverpool and Manchester and have only good things to say about both cities, as well as the vast majority of Mancunians and Liverpudlians that I encountered. In truth I probably do lean towards Liverpool because I lived there when I first came to the UK and went to Anfield a few times but both are great cities and Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United and Manchester City are all great clubs. It's such a shame that we have to share football with idiots, but there it is.

I think it was very good of the club to play You'll Never Walk Alone. Last Wednesday was a very emotional day and to see the club make that gesture made me even more proud to be a Bristol City fan.

[Ron]

That goes without saying.

It's not really a great deal different from that. A little token to show our support.

[Cunnyfunt]

Joe's a Man United hero, if anyone had an interest in deflecting attention away from United it would be him.

Here he says he's not ever heard Liverpool fans say anything about Munich. I dunno if he knows more than anyone else, I certainly don't know... But yeah. United fans even had the cheek to deny that the song they sung was referencing Hillsborough. Regardless of my affinity to Liverpool, United fans are amongst the most detestable in the entire football league.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/19617438

Having read various articles and listening to numerous talk shows on the radio it has become apparent the majority of United fans were far from happy with the singing of the 'it's never your fault' chant on the weekend. The minority though have been singing this song (along with Evertonians) for the past year but the timing on this occasion could not have been worse after the news of the past week. Insensitive is an understatement.

On the plus side and for the good of football hopefully, there is talk of a tribute from United fans on Sunday. That would be a great statement of intent to try and end that disgusting side of their rivalry putting to bed all things Munich and Hillsborough related. Let's just hope the decent fans (on both sides) ousting the minority for the games sake.

[Barrs Court Red]

Anyone want to explain the "bucherest 1986" banner seen in the Kop.....

[WolfOfWestStreet]

Anyone want to explain the "bucherest 1986" banner seen in the Kop.....

Yeah I thought the same. Exactly why I find it hard to sympathise with Liverpool despite everything that has happened, they don't help themselves.

[Avalonred]

I first heard about the tragedy at half time whist stood in the Enclosure watching Bristol City take on whoever they were playing that day.

I was in the enclosure that day too... Was a very sad day and got worse as the day went on....

[BTRFTG]

Agree with this completely but ended up having a heated row with the guy who sits behind me who decided to lose the plot completely when the song was played. I think his actual words were "Its a ******* disgrace, and they just dont have the courage to admit their own part in it " or words to that effect. I totally respect that people have strong feelings on the subject and there clearly are some who STILL cant accept that this could have happened to any team setting foot in that stadium that day but to come out with the rant he did in front of his own child and both of mine was totally out of order.

I assume you refer to me, in which case I’m compelled to correct via this forum your Mackenziesque reportage.

You fail to clarify that my comments weren’t directed at you, or at the crowd in general, but instead were addressed to colleagues who I know hold similar views to myself; we’d discussed at length over the years & had done so in depth that lunchtime. You also signally fail to relate the reasons explained to you as to why I was of the opinion that playing ‘You’ll Never Walk Alone ‘was inappropriate.

Let’s first however get a few facts straight. The systematic cover up of the incident at Hillsborough is abhorrent & those involved must be called to account & punished, where appropriate. Those who know Andy Burnham from his time within the London City Supporters Club will attest to the fact his commitment & dedication in exposing the scandal is unequivocal bordering on obsessive. He & his colleagues who’ve driven this issue to the fore deserve a medal. Then there’s the incident itself…..

Anyone who knows a thing or two about the genesis of accidents, or risk management, will tell you that in the vast majority of cases no one factor provides a root cause. An aggregation of smaller, seemingly unconnected factors, lead to a tipping point where one final trigger compels the response. Hillsborough was no different. Management failure & performance degradation within the Police & stewards was a major factor, as was the design/redesign of the stadium, as had been years of hooligan glorification that saw fences installed, as were the arcane communication hardware failures, as was the road works en route to Sheffield, as was the officials’ failure to delay kick off….I could go on. The trigger however, the factor that crossed the Rubicon, the reason the innocents within the pens died, was Liverpool supporters arriving late & pushing to get into the ground with the match already started. They didn’t mean to injure or kill, would have been the last thing on their minds, their minor, significant actions of pushing & impelling supporters to gain quicker access – it had consequence. And that’s my gripe. In this & other incidents in which they’ve been involved Liverpool FC & their supporters hold a resolute & categoric denial of any form of responsibility. I asked if you’d read Oliver Kay’s excellent article in The Times on Saturday in which, more articulate than I, he outlined his problem with the Hillsborough deification. The failure of club or council to retract their reprehensible statements post Heysel; it wasn’t Liverpool supporters who’d caused the deaths, it was National Front infiltrators in Liverpool shirts, or Chelsea, or Spurs or anyone other than theirs. At Hillsborough all were late because of the road works. For the first time in history nobody had been to the pub. Nobody tried to get in without a ticket. And despite the reprehensible reporting that’s my issue.

I’m not one for onanistic hair renting, chest beating & North Korean wailing. The perverse schadenfraude of public reaction when multiple deaths, or significant public death, occurs. When a coach slides off the A3, when a plane plunges into the Atlantic, when a Royal enters a Parisian tunnel & doesn’t come out, it’s tragic for their family & friends. To the rest of us it’s an accident, it’s not ours to ‘own’. Accidents have & will happen & should not play part in a collective expression of smug, self congratulation – aren’t we good, we all pay homage, we dare not question ill-reported public sentiment. “The people pay, the paper sells; its plug ugly sub-animal yells….” And that’s the difference between you & I & our relationships with our offspring. I debate as such with mine & he’s entitled to his opinion & I’m proud when he stands opposed to naïve thinking such as yours.

The asinine Mr Lloyd could have requested those who wished to do so to clap along, or remain silent, or shed crocodile tears. He didn’t. His assertion that ‘all’ fans will…, well it was sadly misplaced. If I’m in the ground, if I’ve paid my money, I don’t feel compelled to perform an act of historic redaction. In one incident last week four times as many as those who died at Hillsborough perished in an Indian sweat-shop , the type that make shirts, trainers & cheap clobber so beloved of football fans. They didn’t have much choice where they worked; they had little choice about being locked into an over-crowed factory. It wasn’t an accident. The Public Few will not miss them, though for many more than on Merseyside the tragedy will live on for ever. Dave didn’t play a record for them….

Now if you’re stood next to me & disrespect those that died in the Great War, those who collectively gave their all because they didn’t have a choice, those who remained feeling the guilt that it wasn’t they who were taken, I won’t be responsible for my actions. And therein lays the difference.

[Hope&Glory]

BTRFTG, you have my respect for coming onto the forum and sticking up for your beliefs, fair play to you. You put your point across articulately and I have no desire to enter into a battle of intellect with you. My objection to you on Saturday was your loud over the top reaction coupled with its's a ******g disgrace !" hardly the same literary skill set that you have applied this evening. You only had to ignore it and not applaud , any other reaction was surely only going to cause others to question your reaction. You could have kept it to yourself. That was my point, nothing more, nothing less. As I respect your opinion, hopefully you will understand my reaction to you on Saturday and I suggest we both move on and concentrate on supporting the club we both pay good money to watch.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 things, firstly Manu and especially Fergie were very quick to condemn the chants on saturday.

Secondly I found this and I suspect Bill Shankly would hopefully turn in his grave knowing that his legendary name being used to promote this vile shit.

[Cunnyfunt]

2 things, firstly Manu and especially Fergie were very quick to condemn the chants on saturday.

Secondly I found this and I suspect Bill Shankly would hopefully turn in his grave knowing that his legendary name being used to promote this vile shit.

You could say Liverpool have the most detestable fans in the football league on that evidence.

[bywaterred]

I went to Anfield,94 was the year.

Before you were born it seems.

Grow up ffs.

I want allowed to go as I got caught shop lifting the day before. Doh! Silly boy.

Back to the OP Thought it was a nice idea tbh. Even if it was sticking our fingers up. Great that the families got closure. Nothing wrong with paying your respects. Look how many people turned up to Diana's funeral

[Portland Bill]

BTRFTG, just a couple of points in relation to your post. You and others have mentioned Liverpool fans turning up late.

If you read the report you will find that the turnstiles at Hillsborough were totally inadequate for large crowds.

In 1981 the exact same things( except for loss of life) happened in the FA cup semi between Spurs and Villa.

Mass crowds of people trying to get in the ground late. No semi finals were then played at Hillsborough untill 88,because of safety issues.

In 88 exactly the same problems occurred outside the turnstile area, the kick off was delayed for 15 mins.

ANY teams supporters turning up at that ground for a sell out would have had the same problems.

One last point,a train carrying 450 Liverpool fans arrived at ( cant remember the stations name) 2,05pm with a 15 minute walk to Hillsborough.

The police held the fans at that station untill 2.30 pm, then let them walk to the ground.

Arriving at Hillsborough at,well you work it out.

The ground was a death trap, it was an accident waiting to happen,no safety certificate.

It could have been you or me if City had been there that day.

[Pezo]

2 things, firstly Manu and especially Fergie were very quick to condemn the chants on saturday.

Secondly I found this and I suspect Bill Shankly would hopefully turn in his grave knowing that his legendary name being used to promote this vile shit.

That's sick. In the space of about 3 years Liverpool have gone from a club I don't really have any feelings about but looked out for results because friends support them to one of my most hated clubs.

I'm not saying man u fans are any better but I hated most of them already.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Below is a link to (for want of a better word) the organisation itself, it's interesting to read their aims, they are obviously trying portray themselves as an official organisation with ties to the club itself.

http://www.spiritofshankly.com

[snarf]

I was at the Emirates for Arsenal v Spurs about 4 years ago. The Arsenal fans kept going 'hissssssssss'. Took me until the second half to work it out...........imitating the gas chambers.

[Ron]

Spurs' own adopted nickname is not without its controversy...

[chipdawg]

Utd fans sing songs Hillsborough, so Liverpool fans sing about the Munich air crash. Leeds fans also sing songs about Munich so Utd (as do several other clubs) sing songs about Leeds fans getting stabbed in Istanbul. Meanwhile, Arsenal fans make reference to the holocaust to upset Spurs Jewish fans... I think we can can safely say that there are a significant minority of horrible *****s at most football clubs and that this has been the case for many years

[BTRFTG]

BTRFTG, just a couple of points in relation to your post. You and others have mentioned Liverpool fans turning up late.

If you read the report you will find that the turnstiles at Hillsborough were totally inadequate for large crowds.

In 1981 the exact same things( except for loss of life) happened in the FA cup semi between Spurs and Villa.

Mass crowds of people trying to get in the ground late. No semi finals were then played at Hillsborough untill 88,because of safety issues.

In 88 exactly the same problems occurred outside the turnstile area, the kick off was delayed for 15 mins.

ANY teams supporters turning up at that ground for a sell out would have had the same problems.

One last point,a train carrying 450 Liverpool fans arrived at ( cant remember the stations name) 2,05pm with a 15 minute walk to Hillsborough.

The police held the fans at that station untill 2.30 pm, then let them walk to the ground.

Arriving at Hillsborough at,well you work it out.

The ground was a death trap, it was an accident waiting to happen,no safety certificate.

It could have been you or me if City had been there that day.

That's why I referenced the design flaws & the travel issues as being contributory factors. Reflect also that the ground itself hosted hundreds of matches with similar attendance without incident prior to the anti-hooligan design elements that were retro-fitted in response to a minority of fans causing havoc throughout the 60's & 70's. Once the alterations were made I believe at least 3 incidents caused further amendments at the Leppings Lane end, all of which contributed to the incident 23 years ago. One could adopt a Liverpool position & argue nobody entered the ground who didn't have a ticket; in which case why the overcrowding? Uncontrolled, the masses rushed to the nearest entrance to the terrace & the pens prevented the crowd dispersing laterally. Perhaps they didn't realise how the sections of the terrace worked, perhaps like many fans they didn't care. I dare not suggest that some may have imbibed a tincture or two and that their actions were consequentially impaired. Ask why it was few incidents occured during the days when football stadia were packed to the gunnels week in, week out? The answer lies in basic civility. People were prepared to queue, to wait, to be polite to their fellow man.My point however remains valid. Had the Liverpool fans not sought to force their way onto the terrace those at the front would have survived. The Police didn't force them down that entrance to the terrace, by that time they'd lost control. The very fact Liverpool FC & its supporters refuse point blank to take one iota of responsibility for this, Heysel, or the raft of other incidents throughout Europe caused by their 'scally mentality' , of which they're so proud, is the problem for me. They weren't the sole cause, they were however a part.As for City forget Hillsborough, you only have to go back to last season & the potential death trap that is Upton Park. Being a big bloke I had to have a 'strong word' or two with the cretins pushing forward on the way out, at the bottleneck under the stand, when they seemed intent on getting the tube, or to the High Street in their laughable 'show of force' so vocally applauded by many hereabouts. Those fans showed no respect for the Hillsborough dead, or the young, frail or infirm leaving the terrace that night. Many will doubtless be those who clapped in the name of the Spion Kop, moral high ground Saturday. Self-congratulatory hypocrites all. Years back I was one of the cretins at the front banging on the gates at Roots Hall and yes I'd been to the pub and yes I'd arrived late. More by luck than judgement nobody was injured when the Stewards opened the gates in panic and we all rushed in for nothing. But it could have turned out different; it opened my eyes and much as I love football it made me realise its not worth dying for.

[Jordan Tansley]

That's why I referenced the design flaws & the travel issues as being contributory factors. Reflect also that the ground itself hosted hundreds of matches with similar attendance without incident prior to the anti-hooligan design elements that were retro-fitted in response to a minority of fans causing havoc throughout the 60's & 70's. Once the alterations were made I believe at least 3 incidents caused further amendments at the Leppings Lane end, all of which contributed to the incident 23 years ago. One could adopt a Liverpool position & argue nobody entered the ground who didn't have a ticket; in which case why the overcrowding? Uncontrolled, the masses rushed to the nearest entrance to the terrace & the pens prevented the crowd dispersing laterally. Perhaps they didn't realise how the sections of the terrace worked, perhaps like many fans they didn't care. I dare not suggest that some may have imbibed a tincture or two and that their actions were consequentially impaired. Ask why it was few incidents occured during the days when football stadia were packed to the gunnels week in, week out? The answer lies in basic civility. People were prepared to queue, to wait, to be polite to their fellow man.My point however remains valid. Had the Liverpool fans not sought to force their way onto the terrace those at the front would have survived. The Police didn't force them down that entrance to the terrace, by that time they'd lost control. The very fact Liverpool FC & its supporters refuse point blank to take one iota of responsibility for this, Heysel, or the raft of other incidents throughout Europe caused by their 'scally mentality' , of which they're so proud, is the problem for me. They weren't the sole cause, they were however a part.As for City forget Hillsborough, you only have to go back to last season & the potential death trap that is Upton Park. Being a big bloke I had to have a 'strong word' or two with the cretins pushing forward on the way out, at the bottleneck under the stand, when they seemed intent on getting the tube, or to the High Street in their laughable 'show of force' so vocally applauded by many hereabouts. Those fans showed no respect for the Hillsborough dead, or the young, frail or infirm leaving the terrace that night. Many will doubtless be those who clapped in the name of the Spion Kop, moral high ground Saturday. Self-congratulatory hypocrites all. Years back I was one of the cretins at the front banging on the gates at Roots Hall and yes I'd been to the pub and yes I'd arrived late. More by luck than judgement nobody was injured when the Stewards opened the gates in panic and we all rushed in for nothing. But it could have turned out different; it opened my eyes and much as I love football it made me realise its not worth dying for.

450,000 documents read by an independent panel and still some continue to believe they are the fountain of all knowledge.

Still, at least you've shut your pie hole with regard to the manager for a while...

[Cliftonville]

Ask why it was few incidents occured during the days when football stadia were packed to the gunnels week in, week out? The answer lies in basic civility.

Thirty people died at a stadium disaster at Bolton in the forties due to overcrowding.

[Portland Bill]

That's why I referenced the design flaws & the travel issues as being contributory factors. Reflect also that the ground itself hosted hundreds of matches with similar attendance without incident prior to the anti-hooligan design elements that were retro-fitted in response to a minority of fans causing havoc throughout the 60's & 70's. Once the alterations were made I believe at least 3 incidents caused further amendments at the Leppings Lane end, all of which contributed to the incident 23 years ago. One could adopt a Liverpool position & argue nobody entered the ground who didn't have a ticket; in which case why the overcrowding? Uncontrolled, the masses rushed to the nearest entrance to the terrace & the pens prevented the crowd dispersing laterally. Perhaps they didn't realise how the sections of the terrace worked, perhaps like many fans they didn't care. I dare not suggest that some may have imbibed a tincture or two and that their actions were consequentially impaired. Ask why it was few incidents occured during the days when football stadia were packed to the gunnels week in, week out? The answer lies in basic civility. People were prepared to queue, to wait, to be polite to their fellow man.My point however remains valid. Had the Liverpool fans not sought to force their way onto the terrace those at the front would have survived. The Police didn't force them down that entrance to the terrace, by that time they'd lost control. The very fact Liverpool FC & its supporters refuse point blank to take one iota of responsibility for this, Heysel, or the raft of other incidents throughout Europe caused by their 'scally mentality' , of which they're so proud, is the problem for me. They weren't the sole cause, they were however a part.As for City forget Hillsborough, you only have to go back to last season & the potential death trap that is Upton Park. Being a big bloke I had to have a 'strong word' or two with the cretins pushing forward on the way out, at the bottleneck under the stand, when they seemed intent on getting the tube, or to the High Street in their laughable 'show of force' so vocally applauded by many hereabouts. Those fans showed no respect for the Hillsborough dead, or the young, frail or infirm leaving the terrace that night. Many will doubtless be those who clapped in the name of the Spion Kop, moral high ground Saturday. Self-congratulatory hypocrites all. Years back I was one of the cretins at the front banging on the gates at Roots Hall and yes I'd been to the pub and yes I'd arrived late. More by luck than judgement nobody was injured when the Stewards opened the gates in panic and we all rushed in for nothing. But it could have turned out different; it opened my eyes and much as I love football it made me realise its not worth dying for.

You just don't get it do you, read the report.

Do you not actually understand that the whole terrace was not overcrowded? The middle pen was, the outside pens were half empty.

The design of the end and the fact there was NO police or stewards directing fans to the outside pens was the cause.

Instead of delaying the kick off the police controller decided to open the gates.

It happened before in 1981, dont you realise that?

To me it sounds like you have just picked and

read a copy of the sun from 1989.

Read the independent Hillsborough report, it's all available on line and easy to find.

[chipdawg]

450,000 documents read by an independent panel and still some continue to believe they are the fountain of all knowledge.

Still, at least you've shut your pie hole with regard to the manager for a while...

Actually the report doesn't disagree with what BTRFG says, though he perhaps is putting in rather strong terms. The report barely looks at what happened outside the ground as, quite rightly, what has been uncovered inside the stadium is so abhorrent. However, the report quite clearly states that the police had lost control of the crowd outside the ground by 2.44pm and that there was such concern for people being crushed to death outside the ground that they opened a gate to alleviate the crush. This was succesful and the gate was shut, but still people pushed to get on to the terrace from the concourse. I don't think that was behaviour that only Liverpool fans would engage in, that's just a crowd mentality. As for his assertion that there may have been drunken and ticketless fans there, well this is also confirmed in the report through the completely ambiguous statement that there were not "exceptional levels" of drunkenness, violence or ticketless fans. Given the era in which this occurred I think we can take it as given that there were a fair few falling into at least one of those three categories. The report is unequivocal that it wasn't the fans fault and I largely agree with that, but I don't think we can argue that they helped

And this is the crux of my issue with the reaction of many in here to the findings. People seem to think that it vindicates 'football fans'. Its actually a bit of an indictment upon them in my opinions. The fact that it 'could have been any group of fans' there that day just highlights how much bad behaviour went with football in the 1980s. Those pens and perimeter fences may have contributed to the disaster but they weren't there for shits and giggles, they were there because there were a significant minority (or more) of English football fans who went to games for the ruck, to scrap with police and other fans. The 96 died because of criminal mismanagement of a crowd situation by the police, but the attitude of the authorities to football crowds at that time was not without justification. To be honest when I read about the football watching experience in the 1980s, I'm quite glad I didn't go to my first game until 1991

[Jordan Tansley]

Actually the report doesn't disagree with what BTRFG says, though he perhaps is putting in rather strong terms. The report barely looks at what happened outside the ground as, quite rightly, what has been uncovered inside the stadium is so abhorrent. However, the report quite clearly states that the police had lost control of the crowd outside the ground by 2.35pm and that there was such concern for people being crushed to death outside the ground that they opened a gate to alleviate the crush. This was succesful and the gate was shut, but still people pushed to get on to the terrace from the concourse. I don't think that was behaviour that only Liverpool fans would engage in, that's just a crowd mentality. As for his assertion that there may have been drunken and ticketless fans there, well this is also confirmed in the report through the completely ambiguous statement that there were not "exceptional levels" of drunkenness, violence or ticketless fans. Given the era in which this occurred I think we can take it as given that there were a fair few falling into at least one of those three categories. The report is unequivocal that it wasn't the fans fault and I largely agree with that, but I don't think we can argue that they helped

And this is the crux of my issue with the reaction of many in here to the findings. People seem to think that it vindicates 'football fans'. Its actually a bit of an indictment upon them in my opinions. The fact that it 'could have been any group of fans' there that day just highlights how much bad behaviour went with football in the 1980s. Those pens and perimeter fences may have contributed to the disaster but they weren't there for shits and giggles, they were there because there were a significant minority (or more) of English football fans who went to games for the ruck, to scrap with police and other fans. The 96 died because of criminal mismanagement of a crowd situation by the police, but the attitude of the authorities to football crowds at that time was not without justification. To be honest when I read about the football watching experience in the 1980s, I'm quite glad I didn't go to my first game until 1991

Can't disagree with much of that post, Chip. Nobody can dispute the contribution to the tragedy that the hooligan culture of the time made, but the problem many have is the insinuation that there was any hooliganism in this individual incident.

Incidently, just watching the highlights of last nights football at Goodison. What a wonderful touch from the club. For me it makes BTRFG's disgust at us simply playing a song even more difficult to understand. But hey, each to their own. He's not been adverse to displaying unpopular or (some would say) inherently wrong opinions on here since his return.

[BTRFTG]

You just don't get it do you, read the report.

Do you not actually understand that the whole terrace was not overcrowded? The middle pen was, the outside pens were half empty.

The design of the end and the fact there was NO police or stewards directing fans to the outside pens was the cause.

Instead of delaying the kick off the police controller decided to open the gates.

It happened before in 1981, dont you realise that?

To me it sounds like you have just picked and

read a copy of the sun from 1989.

Read the independent Hillsborough report, it's all available on line and easy to find.

Er ? That was my point. Only the middle of the 5 pens was severely overcrowed, the two on the ends had space. The Police abdicated control by opening the gates, they made a mistake in assuming the lesser of the two risks were deaths occuring inside the gates rather than outside. They were wrong. The Police however didn't force the fans to clamour at the gates, they didn't force them up the central terrace entrance - the fans did that themselves, though Liverpool FC signally refuse to acknowledge the fact. There is such a thing as personal responsibility, unpalatable as it may be to those who now realise the insignificant pushing & shoving ultimately killed their kin. Whilst the contributory factors we both referenece increased the likelihood of such an incident occuring, it didn't make it inevitable - hence the previous 'near miss' incidents. As with Heysel the design & construction of the stadium were significant factors, though didn't themselves cause deaths. Had Liverpool fans not sought to attack the fence seperating them from the Juve supporters, had they remained in their own section of terrace there would have been no mass panic, no fleeing fans, walls would not have collapsed, people would not have died. To absolve themselves from responsibility by suggesting extreme right wing groups or other clubs supporters were to blame, well it goes with the territory on Merseyside. Fans by necessity will be adjacent in a ground, doesn't mean you're obliged to attack the opposition. It's all a Carla Lane comedy, it's a non-falsifiable, adjectival excuse for abdicating responsibility, we're all victims, its not our fault, 'society' is to blame. In which case tell me where 'society' lives & I'll go round & have a word.....

[chipdawg]

Can't disagree with much of that post, Chip. Nobody can dispute the contribution to the tragedy that the hooligan culture of the time made, but the problem many have is the insinuation that there was any hooliganism in this individual incident.

Incidently, just watching the highlights of last nights football at Goodison. What a wonderful touch from the club. For me it makes BTRFG's disgust at us simply playing a song even more difficult to understand. But hey, each to their own. He's not been adverse to displaying unpopular or (some would say) inherently wrong opinions on here since his return.

No such thing as a wrong opinion Jordan

I agree that it's wrong to make any insinuation that hooliganism caused this event, but equally people are burying their heads in the sand if they don't recognise that it contributed significantly, if only indirectly in this case. No hooligans, no Heysel, no Liverpool and Spurs fans fighting each other the year before and it might not have happened (not picking on L'Pool fans, though they had a 'rep' at the time, they're just the most appropriate examples). We can all piss and moan about the sanitisation of the football watching experience and 'health & safety nazis' but at the same time that's what makes another Hillsborough unlikely in this country

[Portland Bill]

Actually the report doesn't disagree with what BTRFG says, though he perhaps is putting in rather strong terms. The report barely looks at what happened outside the ground as, quite rightly, what has been uncovered inside the stadium is so abhorrent. However, the report quite clearly states that the police had lost control of the crowd outside the ground by 2.44pm and that there was such concern for people being crushed to death outside the ground that they opened a gate to alleviate the crush. This was succesful and the gate was shut, but still people pushed to get on to the terrace from the concourse. I don't think that was behaviour that only Liverpool fans would engage in, that's just a crowd mentality. As for his assertion that there may have been drunken and ticketless fans there, well this is also confirmed in the report through the completely ambiguous statement that there were not "exceptional levels" of drunkenness, violence or ticketless fans. Given the era in which this occurred I think we can take it as given that there were a fair few falling into at least one of those three categories. The report is unequivocal that it wasn't the fans fault and I largely agree with that, but I don't think we can argue that they helped

And this is the crux of my issue with the reaction of many in here to the findings. People seem to think that it vindicates 'football fans'. Its actually a bit of an indictment upon them in my opinions. The fact that it 'could have been any group of fans' there that day just highlights how much bad behaviour went with football in the 1980s. Those pens and perimeter fences may have contributed to the disaster but they weren't there for shits and giggles, they were there because there were a significant minority (or more) of English football fans who went to games for the ruck, to scrap with police and other fans. The 96 died because of criminal mismanagement of a crowd situation by the police, but the attitude of the authorities to football crowds at that time was not without justification. To be honest when I read about the football watching experience in the 1980s, I'm quite glad I didn't go to my first game until 1991

Agree with your post.

Regarding the era, the 70's were worse IMO.

When we reached the 80's it seemed the Police were there just to provoke, they weren't there to prevent trouble.

I can remember getting off trains at away games and being told that " if you want it were up for it" that's 100% true.

A lot of the Police were desperate to get involved.

Maggie Thatchers firm was the name given to them.

Yes, a lot of fans/lads did go just for the "off" but every football fan was treated as if they were scum.

I know I've gone off topic, but it's something the younger fans who weren't about then must realise.

[Super]

Er ? That was my point. Only the middle of the 5 pens was severely overcrowed, the two on the ends had space. The Police abdicated control by opening the gates, they made a mistake in assuming the lesser of the two risks were deaths occuring inside the gates rather than outside. They were wrong. The Police however didn't force the fans to clamour at the gates, they didn't force them up the central terrace entrance - the fans did that themselves, though Liverpool FC signally refuse to acknowledge the fact. There is such a thing as personal responsibility, unpalatable as it may be to those who now realise the insignificant pushing & shoving ultimately killed their kin. Whilst the contributory factors we both referenece increased the likelihood of such an incident occuring, it didn't make it inevitable - hence the previous 'near miss' incidents. As with Heysel the design & construction of the stadium were significant factors, though didn't themselves cause deaths. Had Liverpool fans not sought to attack the fence seperating them from the Juve supporters, had they remained in their own section of terrace there would have been no mass panic, no fleeing fans, walls would not have collapsed, people would not have died. To absolve themselves from responsibility by suggesting extreme right wing groups or other clubs supporters were to blame, well it goes with the territory on Merseyside. Fans by necessity will be adjacent in a ground, doesn't mean you're obliged to attack the opposition. It's all a Carla Lane comedy, it's a non-falsifiable, adjectival excuse for abdicating responsibility, we're all victims, its not our fault, 'society' is to blame. In which case tell me where 'society' lives & I'll go round & have a word.....

Fairly common knowledge now that it wasn't just Liverpool fans at Heysel but many other supporters of other English teams.

[chipdawg]

Fairly common knowledge now that it wasn't just Liverpool fans at Heysel but many other supporters of other English teams.

I didn't know that. In the spirit of the Hillsborough Report, can you provide unbiased, impartial evidence to support that?

[Jordan Tansley]

No such thing as a wrong opinion Jordan

I agree that it's wrong to make any insinuation that hooliganism caused this event, but equally people are burying their heads in the sand if they don't recognise that it contributed significantly, if only indirectly in this case. No hooligans, no Heysel, no Liverpool and Spurs fans fighting each other the year before and it might not have happened (not picking on L'Pool fans, though they had a 'rep' at the time, they're just the most appropriate examples). We can all piss and moan about the sanitisation of the football watching experience and 'health & safety nazis' but at the same time that's what makes another Hillsborough unlikely in this country

There definitely is such thing as a wrong opinion. Hitlers opinion was the Jews were to blame for the post war economic disaster in Germany was wrong. My opinion that Michael McIndoe was a useless waste of space was wrong, BTRFTG's opinion that Derek isn't a good manager (and Robbo's similar opinion regarding Johnson) is wrong.

I don't think any level headed person could deny that the culture of hooliganism played a role. Many of the fans were crushed because of the barriers and pens which had been instilled to try and combat that element of football. But to blame the fans on the day, and accuse them of hooliganism is where the problem lies. You say it best when you say it's an indirect cause, but a significant one too.