BTRFTG Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Good god, why did Betrand Russell bother? As deductive logic appears to beyond many on this forum I'll put it simply: The only link between Hillsborough & hooliganism was the fact that an open terrace had been reconfigured to five discrete pens, all with fencing at the front, minimal egress & a Police force who viewed with great suspicion any fan attempting to get onto the pitch. Some Liverpool fans didn't have tickets, some had had a touch to drink; neither were found to be in sufficient numbers as to contribute significantly to the incident. Believe what you will..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walnutroof657 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Fairly common knowledge now that it wasn't just Liverpool fans at Heysel but many other supporters of other English teams. Also at heysel its also fairly common knowledge that there was history with italian supporters from the year before and the italian supporters that day weren't totally blameless themselves throwing missles into the liverpool section. But the common demoniator between the two was that the football authorities ignored warnings beforehand arrogantly thinking they knew best and its taken the fa 23 years to acknowledge this and its something uefa never have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 There definitely is such thing as a wrong opinion. Hitlers opinion was the Jews were to blame for the post war economic disaster in Germany was wrong. My opinion that Michael McIndoe was a useless waste of space was wrong, BTRFTG's opinion that Derek isn't a good manager (and Robbo's similar opinion regarding Johnson) is wrong. I don't think any level headed person could deny that the culture of hooliganism played a role. Many of the fans were crushed because of the barriers and pens which had been instilled to try and combat that element of football. But to blame the fans on the day, and accuse them of hooliganism is where the problem lies. You say it best when you say it's an indirect cause, but a significant one too. Well said that man, without hooliganism there are no pens or fences at Hillsborough. Crowds pushing going into and out of games (especially when held back by the old bill) will never stop it's always been going on, when my dad first started taking me in the late 50's we always waited together until the main part of the crowd had left because even in those days my dad was aware of the dangers large crowds funneling into small walkways caused and when I started taking my son in the 70's and my grand son in the 90's I too used to wait before exiting the ground. However as I have mentioned on another thread, I find it odd that one of the Taylor recommendations regarding all seater stadia ie. 'standing' which is against ground regulations is totally ignored by increasingly more and more fans at grounds and as I have said heaven forbid it happens, but who would we blame if that was to lead to a tragedy this time?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semblar Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 The discussions here and on the other Hilsborough thread seem to be in two main camps at first read - the "Sun - the Truth" and "#JFT96" camps. But for a significant proportion of those who appear to be "blaming the fans", I believe they are pointing out the fact that life isn't digital. Most on here want to say it's all the police/authorities at fault. I would say that just about everybody here would agree that the vast majority of the blame has to go that way. But even stating that, if I was at the back of the crowd and had been pushing to get in, I would certainly be felling guilty - no matter what any independant review of objective facts concluded, I know that would be my personal feeling. Were the fans to blame? If you're looking for a single party to sling the blame at, the answer would have to be NO. But if it was possible to accurately apportion blame in percentage terms, the percentage apportioned to those at the back who were pushing forward would not be 0%, even if it would be a very low percentage overall (possibly even under 1%) The only experience I have to base this opinion on is the derby match against the Gas where the gate by the right hand side of the Dolman was forced. I was in that crowd with my wife(with tickets). She is asthmatic and the fear from the situation brought on an attack. All I could do to was stand behind her and try to give her enough room to get her inhaler out - which was no easy feat until a couple of other blokes realised what was happening and helped me to hold people back. I never knowingly saw them again but they quite possibly saved her life. My wife never went to a football match again...thankfully she realised that it was a one-off and didn't try to stop me or to prevent me bringing my son the last few years. But even now large crowds bring that memory flooding back to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Very classy tribute from Everton FC last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 A few days after the tragedy, on a lovely midweek evening, the Ashton Gate fans impeccably observed a minute's silence. Then, as I remember, spearheaded by Bobby Taylor, City absolutely bitzed Huddesfield 5-1, in the most devastating opening to a match I have ever seen at the Gate. I was at the Huddersfield game, I've never known an atmosphere like it, when they did the minute's silence you could have heard a pin drop. I wasn't the only one in tears, thinking a mixture of sorrow for what had happened as well as "that could have been me" - we'd all experienced crushes on the terraces. Oh, and it ended 6-1, BTW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I was at the Huddersfield game, I've never known an atmosphere like it, when they did the minute's silence you could have heard a pin drop. I wasn't the only one in tears, thinking a mixture of sorrow for what had happened as well as "that could have been me" - we'd all experienced crushes on the terraces. Oh, and it ended 6-1, BTW! For me it was the first home game after Dean Horrix had been tragically killed in a car crash in march 1990 I believe, he had only been with us a couple of weeks and only played in 3 games, we played Brentford at home and won 2-0, it was a very eery and subdued day really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Very classy tribute from Everton FC last night. Yes, very,the solidarity that City has shown has been awe inspiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redallover157 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 My Grandad was a 'Pool supporter and it was played at his funeral, so me and my Uncle sang our hearts out. Can't believe this thread has descended into more stupid chat even after the revelations of the past week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunnyfunt Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Fairly common knowledge now that it wasn't just Liverpool fans at Heysel but many other supporters of other English teams. I think that's a classic case of 'let somebody but not us' take the blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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