Same Topic, Different Angle.

[Jordan Tansley]

We've had a hundred and one topics about the current manager and potential replacements, but so far it's been mainly anger and little substance. Understandable, but now tempers have died down again I thought I'd stoke the fire again!

As far as I can see the club has three options. 1) Back Del regardless of relegation to turn the club around, let's be honest when he signed up here we new he had a bloody hard job on his hands that wouldn't ever happen over night. 2) Bring in an 'orrible bastard type manager like Billy Davies or potentially Neil Warnock (Leeds are losing heavily lately, you never know with foreign owners!) who could provide a short term solution despite not having much of an eye for developing a club from the bottom up and not really fitting with the accepted BCFC ethos of passing football or 3) bring in a manager with a philosophy that agree's with the principles of the club and will build the club even if we go down such as SO'D.

Each potential route has its pro's and con's.

Derek - Pro's- Seems to have a decent grasp at what and who is required to improve our academy and has shown that he is on occasions capable of getting this side to play some very nice football.

Con's - Can't organise a defence, has too much faith in players that should be dropped for poor form (Maynard, Fontaine, Elliot etc), record at this level is getting pretty bad now.

Billy Davies/ Warnock type. - Pro's. The only sort of manager that could really come in and save us at this point, no nonsense and would get the best out of 'players'.

Con's- Negative percentage football, the two examples given have big spending problems, No long term plan that will see this club develop properly, cringeworthy attacks on officials and other teams in the press that would degrade us by association

SO'D - Pro's - Attractive football, has worked on a budget for most of his career getting the best out of average players and selling them at a profit. Has experience of getting a small side out of League 1 and of keeping teams in this division. If he can get Donny punching above their weight he could do the same here?

Con's - No guarantee that he will be able to keep us up

From a personal perspective, I've wanted to get SO'D since GJ left and think he could well be the sort of manager that would really click with this club. If the board were able to get Willie McStay and co to stay on in the event of Derek's departure and SO'D liked the sort of plans the academy has in place then really you're getting the best of both worlds. I personally would like to see us build a proper footballing philosophy at Ashton Gate, which is why I'd steer clear of those live for today managers like Davies and Warnock.

[Robin 101]

Wow longest post ever?

[Totterdown Tom]

I favoured SOD (Forest were crazy to let him go for McLeish,IMO) but was happy when the Board appointed Derek McInnes. I was convinced he would do a decent job with us, and feel, long-term, that that is still the case, though I am baffled by some of the purchases he has made and by the fact that he doesn't appear to know his best team. Personally, I'd stick with him, even if it means he takes us down.He clearly has something about him as a manager or coach (I think/hope!?!) I just don't see how we can afford the compensation that would have to be paid to Derek and, most likely, his back-room staff. There is obviously some kind of inherent issue with City as a club which is making it difficult to see progress on the field and I just feel we have to bite this particular bullet, support Derek and his staff whilst continuing to ask him searching questions about the direction he is taking the club. There is something to be said for stability.

[+OfficiallyRed+]

JT advocating for another manager? your slipping......

[Jordan Tansley]

I favoured SOD (Forest were crazy to let him go for McLeish,IMO) but was happy when the Board appointed Derek McInnes. I was convinced he would do a decent job with us, and feel, long-term, that that is still the case, though I am baffled by some of the purchases he has made and by the fact that he doesn't appear to know his best team. Personally, I'd stick with him, even if it means he takes us down.He clearly has something about him as a manager or coach (I think/hope!?!) I just don't see how we can afford the compensation that would have to be paid to Derek and, most likely, his back-room staff. There is obviously some kind of inherent issue with City as a club which is making it difficult to see progress on the field and I just feel we have to bite this particular bullet, support Derek and his staff whilst continuing to ask him searching questions about the direction he is taking the club. There is something to be said for stability.

There certainly is something to be said for stability, but where do we draw the line? One particular issue I can't get my head round is the selection of Fontaine. If McInnes is to turn it around he must first ensure he stops selecting a guy who has let the team and McInnes personally down too many times to earn forgiveness.

[+OfficiallyRed+]

There certainly is something to be said for stability, but where do we draw the line? One particular issue I can't get my head round is the selection of Fontaine. If McInnes is to turn it around he must first ensure he stops selecting a guy who has let the team and McInnes personally down too many times to earn forgiveness.

JT, is that you??

Well i'll be damned...

[Cider Queen]

Good post.

Like a lot of people I was happy with Derek's appointment and I'm still convinced that long term the club will be healthier than it was before he came.

However his bizarre team selections and tactics over recent weeks does leave me struggling to defend him.

If we were going to go down the change the manager route for me it would have be Sean O' Driscoll based on availability. Billy Davies type appointment would de stablise the club.

However Im not convinced we will or should get ride of Derek just yet, although I really wish he would stop trying to get himself sacked! :laugh:!

[Jordan Tansley]

JT, is that you??

Well i'll be damned...

I thought you didn't know who I was...

[+OfficiallyRed+]

I thought you didn't know who I was...

Well its pretty hard not to after yesterdays antics...

I do actually agree with you though...

Think everyone went a bit over the top yesterday, myself included.

[RedRaw]

He clearly has something about him as a manager or coach

Does he though? Nothing personal but what makes you say that, what has Derek actually done to make you think / hope he can cut it?

He did relatively well at St Johnstone and is no doubt well thought of by people in scotland but other than the initial period when he first came in (Honeymoon period?) his record is looking pretty shabby and his team selections, tactics, game plan, tinkering and substitutions are on a par if not worse than Millen.

I like Del and want this managment team to succeed but unfortunatley that is down to blind faith rather than being convinced he has the overall ability and nous to turn things around

[bearded_red]

First of all, Leeds have taken 18 points from their last 9 games so if Warnock were to be sacked anytime soon it would be unfair, although as you say who knows with new owners.

Personally I would sack McInnes. His inability to get anything like the best out of many of our players for any length of time is shocking. The majority of our squad have all shown in the past they can at least be reasonable players at this level yet on many occasions this season have produced performances that are barely good enough for any professional player, let alone one at this level. Couple this with some staggering team selections (Taylor on the right wing, Foster in central midfield etc) and you begin to wonder whether anybody could actually do a worse job than McInnes. Football is quite a simple game and when things are going badly any manager should try and reduce things back to basics, our manager does the stark opposite and makes major changes in personel and system with each passing game. My biggest problem with him is that he doesn't appear to me to have any type of plan, his team selections and substitutions (the two before half time yesterday really annoyed me) are ridiculously random and would make you think he has been here five minutes and is experimenting rather than being in his sixteenth month of the job.

If he had a history of turning clubs around then I could totally understand the 'give him time' and 'I'd stick with him even if we went down' arguments. But the fact is he hasn't. He clearly did a good job at St Johnstone, but by all accounts he was continuing the good work that had already been started, this requires a different set of skills (this is without mentioning the standard of scottish football) then will be required shall we find ourselves relegated in May and coming to terms with the fact that nearly all of our talented players will be out the door.

As you say, a Warnock/Davies type (I don't think either of those are actually a possibility due to Warnock already being in work and Davies clearly being a manager that wants constant money from the board to buy players) would probably represent our best chance of staying up. But firstly as those two names are extremely unlikely to come here, who are we actually talking about? and secondly should they be sucessful and keep us in the league, would they be able to take us forward. It is one thing coming in and giving a team a shot in the arm and helping them survive, it is a totally different set of skills that are needed to build a team for the medium and long terms. By all accounts there have been a lot of good things going on behind the scenes with the academy etc, would any new manager in the 'nasty bloke' mould want to get involved in this?

As would would appear the case with you I have wanted O'Driscoll as our manager ever since the end was near with Gary. When Johnson left I felt we were in a wonderful position to be bringing in a new manager. Most managerial changes happen with a team in crisis and results needed right away, yet we had a squad of players (albeit lopsided and needing new faces in certain areas) that had shown themselves to be more than capabale at this level (three consectutive top ten finishes) and we had three months for a manager to prepare for any meaningful games (the 09-10 season was coming to a boring climax and therefore a no pressure situation). I strongly wanted O'Driscoll over bigger names and felt he could be perfect to take us on to the next level, by that I don't necessarily mean promotion, rather being comfortable at this level, but playing slightly more expansive football while relying less on team-spirit and dedication to get us points (those are two important things to have in a football team of course, but when the effort drops not much is left). The wage bill had began to spiral out of control at this time as well and I thought SOD would be perfect at finding talented players in the lower leagues to help address this issue.

For me SOD is the right man for the job. As I said before he clearly has an eye for a player and we need to start finding younger players and talent in the lower leagues rather than overspending on overrated 'name players' and he showed at Doncaster he can keep teams that have no real right to be in the division up. Although it isn't exactly top of the list of things that are needed right now he will also attempt to play in a style that keeps possesion of the ball. Should he be unsucessful in keeping us up I would also class him as the perfect man to be in charge as we try and build a team to get promoted from league 1 next season after we will almost definitely lose players such as Cunningham, Baldock, Davies and Albert.

As always with any new manager decision it is a gamble. There are no perfect candidates when you are 43rd in the english league, but you have to look at what skills you think your particular job calls for and for I think O'Driscoll would be an excellent choice.

[Robbored]

Whichever way the board look at the situation currently they will continue to gamble with the clubs future. Two options open imo.

Option 1) Sack McInnes and bring in someone else. Problem with that is sacking McInnes means a huge upheaval within the structure of the club. Most of his entourage would be out the door soon after. That will cost serious money. Plus, as we saw north of the river and with sacking Millen that replacing a manager doesn't guarantee that things will improve.

Option 2) Stick with McInnes and risk relegation. That would cost the club around 4m in money and see the better players leaving the club. On the way to Div 1 fans unrest ( already on the increase) would worsen and criticism of the board spread to the press and so on.

Whatever decision the board make either way its a huge gamble.

[Totterdown Tom]

There certainly is something to be said for stability, but where do we draw the line? One particular issue I can't get my head round is the selection of Fontaine. If McInnes is to turn it around he must first ensure he stops selecting a guy who has let the team and McInnes personally down too many times to earn forgiveness.

Agree about Fontaine's form, etc, but more confusing for me are the lack of strengthening where needed over the Summer and the apparent lack of inclusion of the big name signings (Morris, Davies, etc), though I know these have been done to death on here. I wonder if he had to play Fontaine regardless, because we were down to the bare bones in terms of defenders, particularly early on in the season, which just makes the failure to really strengthen even more questionable.

[Totterdown Tom]

Does he though? Nothing personal but what makes you say that, what has Derek actually done to make you think / hope he can cut it?

He did relatively well at St Johnstone and is no doubt well thought of by people in scotland but other than the initial period when he first came in (Honeymoon period?) his record is looking pretty shabby and his team selections, tactics, game plan, tinkering and substitutions are on a par if not worse than Millen.

I like Del and want this managment team to succeed but unfortunatley that is down to blind faith rather than being convinced he has the overall ability and nous to turn things around

Well, I guess that the fact he did well in Scotland is some evidence. I agree that his reign is looking more and more like that of Millen, but KM was/is also highly regarded by those in the game. DMC is a young manager who needs to be given time; maybe is just as basic as that.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

We have no guarantees that the academy or the development squad are going to actually produce what it has failed to produce in recent years, so that is unquantifiable no matter how better organised it may look.

There is very little evidence to show that a) DMC can turn this season around or b) get us back up should the unthinkable happen, however there is incontrovertible evidence that his unending tinkering to set up against teams just to counter their strengths clearly does not work and in my view is a negative tactic and one easily countered, I think once he has brought in his january signings he needs to settle on his best side and give it chance and let teams worry about us for a change, the players clearly are unable to understand his constant tinkering with formations, tactics and selections, our 3 home wins pretty much were on the back of full out attacking which our opponents could not cope with.

The dropping of strikers after scoring 2 goals in a game is ridiculous out of all positions strikers need a long run of games to gain sharpness and confidence and it can hardly be much of an incentive to know you will be dropped for an away game because you know the manager is definately going to drop you to the bench for the away game tinkering that history shows is not working and when the penny does drop 1 minute before half time that the tinkering has failed again, to humiliate 2 players in the way he did and then blame the players and not his tinkering frankly beggars belief, in short if he hasn't already started to lose the dressing room I would be amazed players like Baldock, Davies, Anderson, Killkenny, Fontaine, Elliott, Woolford, Nyatanga and perhaps even Carey must all be pretty hacked off at this minute in time and in the case of Baldock and Davies it's not as if the manager can say 'I told you I was right'.

if DMC is going to continue with his reckless and suicidal tinkering for the rest of the season, I fear we are doomed.

The question of to sack or not to sack is indeed a very difficult one and one with no guarantees, but if we do sack the next 48 hours is the time to do it at least if a new man is brought in at least he will have 10 or so days before a league match, so for me it's now or never.

[Randy Marsh]

Well, I guess that the fact he did well in Scotland is some evidence. I agree that his reign is looking more and more like that of Millen, but KM was/is also highly regarded by those in the game. DMC is a young manager who needs to be given time; maybe is just as basic as that.

Millen has a better record than McInnes as our manager. From what I've seen of McInnes mindset and the intentions of the sides and tactics he puts out he is not cut out for managing at this level. He is to afraid of the opposition to ever make a team successful.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Millen has a better record than McInnes as our manager. From what I've seen of McInnes mindset and the intentions of the sides and tactics he puts out he is not cut out for managing at this level. He is to afraid of the opposition to ever make a team successful.

+1

Giving a player a specific task to counter one player is one thing, but 4,5 or 6 changes to counter the whole of the opposition is stupid and clearly not working for far too many reasons.

[GrahamC]

Although the FA Cup really isn't important in the scheme of things I don't think that is how SL sees it.

He has been bitterly disappointed by our inability to make any revenue from this competition in the last 5 years so I wonder if a defeat on Saturday would be the final straw?

Like Bearded Red I think he needs to go now, he is a decent sort but has made us worse and I can see no signs at all of improvement (especially defensively) or of any optimism that he'll turn us round and save us if he stays on.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

One thing that I often find a little perplexing is it's at times like this that you need a very strong no.2, something that clearly Millen never was, someone to say to you 'do you know what boss, this ain't working, there needs to be a different approach'.

[sodburyred]

Well, I guess that the fact he did well in Scotland is some evidence. I agree that his reign is looking more and more like that of Millen, but KM was/is also highly regarded by those in the game. DMC is a young manager who needs to be given time; maybe is just as basic as that.

The budget constraints DM is under compared to Millen shows that he is a much better manager then him IMO

[Esmond Million's Bung]

The budget constraints DM is under compared to Millen shows that he is a much better manager then him IMO

I suspect there is very little or no difference at all in their respective budgets IMO.

[+OfficiallyRed+]

The budget constraints DM is under compared to Millen shows that he is a much better manager then him IMO

Didn't Del spend the best part of £2M on Baldock and Davies? i don't ever remember Millen having that sort of money at his disposal...

[JammyOne]

Didn't Del spend the best part of £2M on Baldock and Davies? i don't ever remember Millen having that sort of money at his disposal...

No he didn't actually. It was announced a couple of months back that he bought Cunningham, Baldock and Davies all for the same money as Maynard was sold for. Can't see how you can have a lower budget than £0.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

No he didn't actually. It was announced a couple of months back that he bought Cunningham, Baldock and Davies all for the same money as Maynard was sold for. Can't see how you can have a lower budget than £0.

Sorry you've lost me, so he had at least the budget from the sale of Maynard then, some managers would kill for that sort of budget of course Morris, Wilson, Danns, Bates and all of the other loans were'nt exactly playing for nowt either.

PS:- nearly forgot Anderson who he fought off other clubs to sign and now dosen't love him anymore.

[+OfficiallyRed+]

No he didn't actually. It was announced a couple of months back that he bought Cunningham, Baldock and Davies all for the same money as Maynard was sold for. Can't see how you can have a lower budget than £0.

Your missing the point, Millen never had that luxury, so you can't compare the two budgets, Del has spent far more than Millen overall.

[Kid in the Riot]

I am of the opinion that if we do stay up this season it will be in spite of McInnes rather than because of him.

Even looking back to last season we were so shit for the majority of it, as Keith Dawe said at the Q & A we were 'lucky' to stay up really.

It was only those last 8 games of the season when the players probably realised the full impact of what relegation would mean to them ie PAY CUTS or find a new club, that they really started to fight for the cause. Until those last 8 games we were sleep walking towards League One.

I would get McInnes out of there now for many reasons that I've already stated in other threads. I honestly believe it would be hard to appoint someone worse than McInnes and so a sensible appointment such as O'Driscoll would at least give us a chance of staying up but if not then he would get us playing some nice football long-term.

McInnes and Doc are pretty much half way through their contracts so it could be worse in terms of the pay-offs, the other backroom staff that have been brought in can be sorted in the summer. It's probably unlikely but there is perhaps the option of a 'mutual agreement' for McInnes to leave as we did with Gary Johnson. A much smaller pay off for McInnes but he doesn't get the 'blot' on his CV of a sacking early in his career...

[sodburyred]

I suspect there is very little or no difference at all in their respective budgets IMO.

I thaught at the AGM it was said that the wage budget will be down £4million this season compared to last. As examples Pitman and Stead both turned down the prem as we offered more in wages. Andrew Taylor said he was offered more money here but chose cardiff. Has DM ever been able to offer better wages if another team was involved? Derby with Keogh, Huddersfield with Gerrard as examples.

[Kid in the Riot]

Your missing the point, Millen never had that luxury, so you can't compare the two budgets, Del has spent far more than Millen overall.

Has he?

Don't think so. McInnes has definitely had to work within a smaller wage budget than Millen...just wait for this years accounts and see...

[+OfficiallyRed+]

Has he?

Don't think so. McInnes has definitely had to work within a smaller wage budget than Millen...just wait for this years accounts and see...

Hes still spent more than Millen!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I thaught at the AGM it was said that the wage budget will be down £4million this season compared to last. As examples Pitman and Stead both turned down the prem as we offered more in wages. Andrew Taylor said he was offered more money here but chose cardiff. Has DM ever been able to offer better wages if another team was involved? Derby with Keogh, Huddersfield with Gerrard as examples.

Sounds to me that the wage budget might be lower, perhaps more in line with other clubs in this division or let me put it another way I cannot imagine that Baldock, Davies and Anderson who if we are to believe the hype were all signed under intense competition from other clubs would not have come here for incredibly less than other offers, mind you had they known the way that they were going to be treated I bet that they wish they hadn't.

add Cunningham to that list.