England

[screech]

The greedier the satellite league gets, the worse the national side will get. The top clubs stock pile any promising youngster and you never see from them again, look at how promising Scott Sinclair was, at 23 he was playing every week for Swansea but gave it all up to sit in the stands for Man City. It's now the end of March and he has played 8 times. But as long as we can blame the England manager is all that matters.

[real_bristol]

My assessment. Its good to know that the over reaction on here and in the media isn't just for City.

England had a great first half last night hit the wood work twice in the first 5 minutes.

I thought Carrick was a ghost (but I used to think that of Lee Johnson) and shouldn't be playing in an England shirt anyway (ref the egotistical refusal to be on stand by in the last tournament same with Richards).

Cleverly was by far our most lively midfielder and it should have been Carrick/Gerrard to have been subbed.

Welbeck looked clumsy should have punted it clear for their goal rather than pass it into danger.

Milner isn't a right winger but is solid and we need that to cover Johnsons defensive frailties. It would be interesting to see those two swap positions.

Ashley young looked alright when he came on but it might have been better to bring on AOC instead in hindsight.

I still think we'll win the group.

Oh and no Rio isnt the answer. Would rather have a blind-folded shawcross than Rio

[Cowshed]

Don't get why people blame the premier league for England's woes,who's fault was it England were abysmal after the 1970 World Cup throughout the decade? Atrocious in the 88 euros? Catastrophic on the early 90s?

Lets be honest we occasionally pull out a good run in a tournament but ultimately fail then its back to the drawing board for ten years, our players and coaches appear to have learned nothing from having the elite players and coaches from world football performing under their noses.

Because due to the Premier league England will not be able to adopt to the idealogy that has seen France and Spain progress beyond England.

If the Premier league put say 5% of its TV revenue into coaching for kids, a natiownide structure starting at infants school level could be in place which would be as vast as Spains. What England has is a polar opposite to the top European countries who produce players with superior technique.

There has to be a strategic long term plan in place, there is no plan which is an equivalent to Spain's which will continue to produce players year on year with more rounded skill sets. Spanish kids get technique taught to them

nationwide at a very early age, English kids generally do not, and often never will.

Spain once were the also rans!!

[old parkender]

My point was in the 70s we were light years behind brazil holland and Argentina.. In the 80s light years behind Italy holland brazil. Early 90s light years behind everybody. Now once again light years behind Spain and made to look stupid at the last World Cup by Germany, it's a recurring theme with England which I don't think you can pin on the premier league. It must be a blinkered we know best attitude from the top down to lowest journeyman squad player.

[kevinmabbuttshair]

My point was in the 70s we were light years behind brazil holland and Argentina.. In the 80s light years behind Italy holland brazil. Early 90s light years behind everybody. Now once again light years behind Spain and made to look stupid at the last World Cup by Germany, it's a recurring theme with England which I don't think you can pin on the premier league. It must be a blinkered we know best attitude from the top down to lowest journeyman squad player.

I know, terrible in Mexico and as for that Italia 90 performance, well how Sir Bobby got a knighthood I'll never know

[Cowshed]

My point was in the 70s we were light years behind brazil holland and Argentina.. In the 80s light years behind Italy holland brazil. Early 90s light years behind everybody. Now once again light years behind Spain and made to look stupid at the last World Cup by Germany, it's a recurring theme with England which I don't think you can pin on the premier league. It must be a blinkered we know best attitude from the top down to lowest journeyman squad player.

Brazilians and the Dutch have always have superior technique. Futsal originated in its purest form in Brazil, it is a form of football based on technique. England invented Wimbledon and Bristol Rovers.

The Dutch had and have a clear strategy to produce their players. England didn't and don't.

Argentina does not produce Maradona and Messi by accident. Study their technique. What coaching produced Messi?

Now once again light years behind Spain. Again study the structure which produces Xaxi, Iniesta etc. It is utterly geared right from the top to the bottom [they start at infants schools level] to produce players like this.

Spain and France totally overhauled their coaching sets ups nationwide. Due to the omnipotent power of the EPL now England cannot adopt the methods of the top European nations, unless the EPL say so.

[Lew-T]

This is exactly why I couldn't give two shits about international football. We have to put up with these overpaid gutless tossers!

Give me City everytime!

[TRL]

Every country says that type of thing about their opposition in the run up to a fixture(I'm not really including San Marino etc). They all say they 'respect' the opposition etc etc. They're hardly going to say "England are shit with rubbish players" are they?

Guess you paid very little attention to what the montenegro coach and players said then.

My point well and truly proven, as you have just made my point for me. Nice one Rog

[Portland Bill]

My point was in the 70s we were light years behind brazil holland and Argentina.. In the 80s light years behind Italy holland brazil. Early 90s light years behind everybody. Now once again light years behind Spain and made to look stupid at the last World Cup by Germany, it's a recurring theme with England which I don't think you can pin on the premier league. It must be a blinkered we know best attitude from the top down to lowest journeyman squad player.

Because people think the Premier league is so great ( you only have to look at this forum when there is a thread on it) they believe that English football is great.

Until the greed is dealt with, and as others have said some of the money gets given to youth football, we will continue blindly going along this same path.

Billions are being thrown to foreign talent,when it should be going to our young kids to develop them. Only when this happens will we become a country with good young technique'ly gifted players.

We used to get away with brawn, we can't anymore.

[Cowshed]

Because people think the Premier league is so great ( you only have to look at this forum when there is a thread on it) they believe that English football is great.

Until the greed is dealt with, and as others have said some of the money gets given to youth football, we will continue blindly going along this same path.

Billions are being thrown to foreign talent,when it should be going to our young kids to develop them. Only when this happens will we become a country with good young technique'ly gifted players.

We used to get away with brawn, we can't anymore.

Exactly how can a country as small as Montenegro, actually produce players who are as comfortable on the ball as the XI stars of the worlds richest league!

More money will go into agents hands than coaching here.

Spanish kids get coached for FREE by thousands of qualified coaches paid for by its FA, coaches who have to adhere to national standards and who are regularly checked upon to ensure those standards are met.

English kids normally get coached by well meaning Dads.

[glynriley]

Because people think the Premier league is so great ( you only have to look at this forum when there is a thread on it) they believe that English football is great.

Until the greed is dealt with, and as others have said some of the money gets given to youth football, we will continue blindly going along this same path.

Billions are being thrown to foreign talent,when it should be going to our young kids to develop them. Only when this happens will we become a country with good young technique'ly gifted players.

We used to get away with brawn, we can't anymore.

The Premier League is a great league , the problem is the best players at practically every club are foreign. Probably only Southampton have their best player as an Englishman and he won't get picked as long a he has a hole in his ass.

We need a maximum overseas player rule re-introduced and it should include Scottish* , Welsh* and Irish. This would be a benefit to all the home nations.

*Not technically overseas but you get my point !

[TRL]

Because people think the Premier league is so great ( you only have to look at this forum when there is a thread on it) they believe that English football is great.

Until the greed is dealt with, and as others have said some of the money gets given to youth football, we will continue blindly going along this same path.

Billions are being thrown to foreign talent,when it should be going to our young kids to develop them. Only when this happens will we become a country with good young technique'ly gifted players.

We used to get away with brawn, we can't anymore.

Premier league can be exciting. But technically it is miles off other leagues, although oversees players try their best to up the level. As I said further up the thread some English players look good, but they ate made to look good with the technical players that come from other countries.

The only players gaining from the premiership are the foreign players, who already have the technique, now they can improve energy and stamina levels while getting used to using their technique at a faster pace.

Our players should be learning from this influx of foreigners. They don't. Pace and brawn is the dumb ass english way, we never adapt, even when we have the chance to embrace foreign technique, we shut our eyes to it.

[TRL]

The Premier League is a great league , the problem is the best players at practically every club are foreign. Probably only Southampton have their best player as an Englishman and he won't get picked as long a he has a hole in his ass.

We need a maximum overseas player rule re-introduced and it should include Scottish* , Welsh* and Irish. This would be a benefit to all the home nations.

*Not technically overseas but you get my point !

Didn't they try that, but there was restraint of trade issues with EU regulations?

[glynriley]

Didn't they try that, but there was restraint of trade issues with EU regulations?

More than likely , bound to be a way round it though , surely ?

[downendcity]

In the run up to the formation of the premier league, the chairmen/owners of the top sides were telling everyone that a major reason for forming the prem was to benefit the England national team.

The premier league was only ever about money. The top teams didn't want to keep sharing the ever growing cake of Tv money with all 92 league sides, and once that was achieved they couldn't give a t055 about the national team. We reached the WC semi in 1990 ( immediately before the formation of the prem) and failed to qualify on 94 ( immediately after the formation of the prem ) and apart from the euro semi final ( home field advantage) we have gone backwards as a nation ever since and this despite the so called golden generation. There are now more foreign owners and foreign managers/coaches and with the amount of money at stake at the top end of the club game, I can't see any of them being particularly bothered about the England national team so the club v country issue will become even more accute.

Foreign players dominate the top teams because they come with the attitude and technique they learned from an early age in their home contries.Because players and their agents have been allowed to swallow up almost every penny of each successive tv deal, there doesn't seem to have been any investment in grass roots coaching - which is where the big gains would come for future generations of home grown players. English players seem to care more about their bank balances than their careers, so seem happy to go to a big club where they will pick up a big pay check but sit in the stands every match day.

While the premier league remains the money pit it has become I cannot see anything changing anytime soon - why would the owners and premier league bosses want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

[TRL]

More than likely , bound to be a way round it though , surely ?

Only for non EU residents I would have thought. If cubs stopped being able to justify buying EU players, because they could not play them, then sooner or later players will be complaining to the EU.

It would be great for us, I just can't think there is anyway of doing it.

Unless we came out of the EU

[glynriley]

Only for non EU residents I would have thought. If cubs stopped being able to justify buying EU players, because they could not play them, then sooner or later players will be complaining to the EU.

It would be great for us, I just can't think there is anyway of doing it.

Unless we came out of the EU

Only for non EU residents I would have thought. If cubs stopped being able to justify buying EU players, because they could not play them, then sooner or later players will be complaining to the EU.

It would be great for us, I just can't think there is anyway of doing it.

Unless we came out of the EU

Don't know what's wrong with my reply function today !!

You're probably right , I just think if they can propose things like The Rooney Rule , where a certain amount of roles have to be offered to black managers and coaches , there must be a way of ensuring that jobs at English Clubs go to English players ?

Bound to be a wise ass lawyer out there who can see an opportunity?

[Drew Peacock]

Our players should be learning from this influx of foreigners. They don't. Pace and brawn is the dumb ass english way,

But what gets the biggest cheer at Ashton Gate and instant cult status? A two footed lunge by Scott Brown or Cole Skuse which takes out man & ball! It's what the public want to see.

Tippy toe pass it sideways, probe for the opening, retain the ball, pass it sideways again, slow the game down, look for the opening, be patient, retain posession football is rarely well received in England.

[TRL]

But what gets the biggest cheer at Ashton Gate and instant cult status? A two footed lunge by Scott Brown or Cole Skuse which takes out man & ball! It's what the public want to see.

Tippy toe pass it sideways, probe for the opening, retain the ball, pass it sideways again, slow the game down, look for the opening, be patient, retain posession football is rarely well received in England.

And that is exactly why we are dead as a competitive footballing country.

People no longer have a interest in the national game, probably aided by highly paid professionals who do not care either.

it is a sad sad thing, if people really ccared about their national team, maybe we would progress, if people love theri blood and thunder, they get what they want, blood and guts club football and no national team of any note.

I personally disagree with you, I like skilful players.. I bet people cheer louder, when they see an exceptional piece of skill beat the opposition, or to score a goal than they do to a to a knee high challenge. Or maybe I am in the minority in thinking that. to put it another way, I bet Tristan Plummer's bit of skill for the reserves got more youtube views than Skuse or Browns challenge.

[Cowshed]

But what gets the biggest cheer at Ashton Gate and instant cult status? A two footed lunge by Scott Brown or Cole Skuse which takes out man & ball! It's what the public want to see.

Tippy toe pass it sideways, probe for the opening, retain the ball, pass it sideways again, slow the game down, look for the opening, be patient, retain posession football is rarely well received in England.

Tackling has become a skill that is moving towards unnecessary in the modern game, including the EPL.

The french national side at its best combined both. Technique is more important.

Posession football at Notts Forest and Liverpool [allied to a pressing midfield] won European cups, sure their fans received it well.

Citys greatest midfield player had skills well above a Vinnie Jones.

[Kid in the Riot]

In the run up to the formation of the premier league, the chairmen/owners of the top sides were telling everyone that a major reason for forming the prem was to benefit the England national team.

The premier league was only ever about money. The top teams didn't want to keep sharing the ever growing cake of Tv money with all 92 league sides, and once that was achieved they couldn't give a t055 about the national team. We reached the WC semi in 1990 ( immediately before the formation of the prem) and failed to qualify on 94 ( immediately after the formation of the prem ) and apart from the euro semi final ( home field advantage) we have gone backwards as a nation ever since and this despite the so called golden generation. There are now more foreign owners and foreign managers/coaches and with the amount of money at stake at the top end of the club game, I can't see any of them being particularly bothered about the England national team so the club v country issue will become even more accute.

Foreign players dominate the top teams because they come with the attitude and technique they learned from an early age in their home contries.Because players and their agents have been allowed to swallow up almost every penny of each successive tv deal, there doesn't seem to have been any investment in grass roots coaching - which is where the big gains would come for future generations of home grown players. English players seem to care more about their bank balances than their careers, so seem happy to go to a big club where they will pick up a big pay check but sit in the stands every match day.

While the premier league remains the money pit it has become I cannot see anything changing anytime soon - why would the owners and premier league bosses want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

Spot on. The Premier League has far too much power and the FA just bend over and take it. Until that changes there is little hope for the National team.

[cider-manc]

Can we get a bit of perspective?

England are probably somewhere between 6-12 in terms of world ranking. Capable on our day of beating anyone, but likewise capable of losing to anyone on a bad day (much like a mid-table team in any division). We are not world beaters, but neither are we completely useless.

To teams such as Montenegro we are a cup final, anyone who thinks otherwise are kidding themselves. Players up their game, Savic played out of position last night and played beyond anything I saw him produce in a Manchester City shirt for a whole season.

Oldham have beaten (while outplaying for a large chunk of the game) Liverpool this season- would you say that Oldham are better than Liverpool? Or Liverpool aren't as technically gifted as Oldham? Of course not.

We HAVE got some decent players. We HAVE got some technically gifted players and we HAVE produced them in the past.

Germany was so impressed with our "Golden generation" (They were incapable as a team but as individual players they were amongst the best in the world) that they came over and copied (then improved) English coaching systems. This is the same one that has produced one of the youngest most exciting international teams around.

We have now been left behind and need to catch up -As does everyone to Spain. It's a cycle- someone becomes the best other teams strive to catch up and then try to improve. This will not happen over night.

We are unbeaten in a group which is not easy. We are capable of beating all of them but it is far from a walk in the park, when travelling away to Montenegro, Ukraine and Poland- all are potentially very difficult games. Of our 4 remaining games 3 (I think) are at Wembley. We win all four and we still top the group.

People blame the premier league, but what was our excuse for not qualifying in 74 and 78 for the world cup? And you can hardly blame the failure to qualify for USA 94 on the Premier league as the qualifiers started in 1992. Truth be told we have qualified as group winners to all World cups since. Our only qualifying failure being for one Euros.

At tournaments we come unstuck against teams that are above us/around us at ranking level. 2010 aside (when we were rubbish all tournament) it's normally on penalties.

[Red-Robbo]

Walker & Baines are worse defenders than Johnson( I know thats saying something), and Cole. I don't think Defoe and Lampard were ever going to start, one of Young and the Ox may of done.

I can't agree with that, Rog.

Baines is a better defender than the 2013 model Coles. Cashley's day has come and gone and he shouldn't be starting at all. He looked lost.

Woy should've brought on the Ox when it became clear our second half was consisting of sitting back and inviting pressure. He made the wrong change, too late. Reminded me of McInnes a bit. Waiting until the inevitable goal goes in before springing into action.

[Drew Peacock]

English kids normally get coached by well meaning Dads.

Surely the ones which are going to eventually get considered for the England squad are being coached in clubs youth and academy set ups?

With the long influx of foreign managers haven't these been restructured around a more technical approach to the game? Or are the foreign managers really first team coaches with no influence over wider matters in the club?

[Keith_Lemon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhAyX81zP2M

This may help for a start.

[sunningdalered]

Why do we invariably seem to run out of steam after about 50 mins? Last night it was about 46 mins!

[Roger Red Hat]

I can't agree with that, Rog.

Baines is a better defender than the 2013 model Coles. Cashley's day has come and gone and he shouldn't be starting at all. He looked lost.

Woy should've brought on the Ox when it became clear our second half was consisting of sitting back and inviting pressure. He made the wrong change, too late. Reminded me of McInnes a bit. Waiting until the inevitable goal goes in before springing into action.

I like Baines, he's been in my fantasy team for the last couple of seasons, but the defensive side of his game leaves something to be desired. I don't know if I'd have brought on the Ox, but I was disappointed Roy didn't make a change after about 50/55 minutes.

[marshy]

I like Baines, he's been in my fantasy team for the last couple of seasons, but the defensive side of his game leaves something to be desired. I don't know if I'd have brought on the Ox, but I was disappointed Roy didn't make a change after about 50/55 minutes.

It quickly became obvious in the second half that the central midfield was offering little resistance. Cleverley wasn't at his best admittedly but was at least getting around the pitch and putting in a few tackles. Gerrard had already had a dismal first half and Carrick was sinking under pressure. For me it should have been Lampard and Parker on for Gerrard and Carrick with Young for Wellbeck on the left to balance that side. Waiting until the 78th minute was suicidal. Basically he spent the time looking at his watch praying we could see the game through to the end.

[Gazred]

It quickly became obvious in the second half that the central midfield was offering little resistance. Cleverley wasn't at his best admittedly but was at least getting around the pitch and putting in a few tackles. Gerrard had already had a dismal first half and Carrick was sinking under pressure. For me it should have been Lampard and Parker on for Gerrard and Carrick with Young for Wellbeck on the left to balance that side. Waiting until the 78th minute was suicidal. Basically he spent the time looking at his watch praying we could see the game through to the end.

I was screaming for that change from about 50 mins onwards. Probably the most disapointing thing about the result last night was the fact the manager did nothing to attempt to stop the momentum that was building Montenegro's way. We could all see it, and nothing happened.....then they score...all so predictable.

[Cowshed]

Surely the ones which are going to eventually get considered for the England squad are being coached in clubs youth and academy set ups?

With the long influx of foreign managers haven't these been restructured around a more technical approach to the game? Or are the foreign managers really first team coaches with no influence over wider matters in the club?

Surely the ones which are going to eventually get considered for the England squad are being coached in clubs youth and academy set ups?

Coaching with approved coaches in spain starts before academy level [u8]. This increases the pool of already skilled kids for acedemies. Kids in junior clubs from eight onwards again will be coached by qualified coaches. This again increases the pool of talent for clubs of all sizes, not all young players will join academies at an early age.

If you think about the above the Spanish are attempting to train every available kid they can to nurture more promising players. It is an investment at a very very early age.

The English model relies on kids having/gaining skill at a much later age.

The two above are different models.

Foreign managers often will have no wider influence. They are there for the first team.