Papa Cisse

[redsontour]

Not really. They are designed to take money from people I agree. If they have a bias it would be towards taking from the rich not the poor - purely because it's easier to make more.You've got no problem with stupid or just poorly educated people being exploited?Do you realise how many people don't understand what an APR is? They're trained to just click through the terms and conditions because they're written in a language nobody understands. When was the last time you actually read a credit agreement?They often don't know what the consequences are at all, and these companies have a whole business model based on people not paying back on time.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Pay day loan companies actually base their business models on people paying back on time, hence the high rates of interest and the short term nature of the borrowing. As for people understanding APR, that's a complete smokescreen. Nobody understands APR/AER. If you go and run a pay day loan quote is says in pounds, shillings and pence, how much you pay back when.

Of course, in an ideal world, everyone would have access to money if banks won't lend, via for example credit unions, but people actually need to accept that Credit Unions turn down in the region of 60% of all borrowing requests, for all sorts if reasons including over borrowing, failure to repay, etc. So, to be very clear, if Wonga was not supplying short term money at high rates of interest, the sadly desperate would still need to be getting that money somewhere else, and that is via the unregulated loan industry, who in the main use iron bars rather than CCJs to get money.

As for the Cisse issue, it is complete baloney. This isn't about a moral stance regarding a pay day lender, it's manipulation and self promotion by somebody using their religion as a smokescreen. The Quran doesn't say "Wonga is Usury and anyone that promotes it will go to hell" . It sure as heck says that all Muslims must oppose gambling and counsel their friends, which he would unlikely be able to do sat at a black jack table...

[Nibor]

They don't need to understand APR, nobody takes out a payday loan for 365 days.

All they see is 'BORROW £150 AND PAY £30 INTEREST IN 1 MONTH'.

Clear as mud and plenty of people use it sensibly when needed. People who get exploited probably have overdrafts and regular credit cards maxed out too, same situation.

I'd love to see some industry figures on proportions of people who use it sensibly. They don't publish those though for obvious reasons.

And yes of course people who use this have maxed overdrafts and credit cards or they'd be using those first.

People who get into this kind of trouble are typically poorly educated and don't understand how to plan finances. They quickly get into a state where they can't (not won't, can't) pay all their commitments.

Lending them more is guaranteed to put them deeper in. We didn't have huge consumer debt problems 20 years ago when high risks loans simply weren't offered. We have the technology now to ensure people can't get into a state where they're unable to pay, but these companies choose to lend anyway because they can get paid through recovery (CCJs).

What we really need is practical education in schools on household budgets, finance and the like. That won't fix it for a generation at least though.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Pay day loan companies actually base their business models on people paying back on time, hence the high rates of interest and the short term nature of the borrowing. As for people understanding APR, that's a complete smokescreen. Nobody understands APR/AER. If you go and run a pay day loan quote is says in pounds, shillings and pence, how much you pay back when.

Of course, in an ideal world, everyone would have access to money if banks won't lend, via for example credit unions, but people actually need to accept that Credit Unions turn down in the region of 60% of all borrowing requests, for all sorts if reasons including over borrowing, failure to repay, etc. So, to be very clear, if Wonga was not supplying short term money at high rates of interest, the sadly desperate would still need to be getting that money somewhere else, and that is via the unregulated loan industry, who in the main use iron bars rather than CCJs to get money.

I worked in credit risk for 7 years building the systems that make lending decisions. I can tell you for sure that the propaganda these businesses put out (which is what you're relaying) and their actual business models are vastly different. They certainly don't turn down anything like 60% of requests and nor does the retail finance industry in general. Credit unions are generally a US phenomenon, we don't have them in the UK. They are usually small scale - two or three independent small town banks joined together - so operate at very low risk.

These payday lending firms CANNOT have a model based on people paying back on time, it's not actually possible. What they're doing is lending at a much higher risk profile and mitigating it by charging ridiculous fees, knowing that they can litigate and get a property charge or attachment of earnings against benefits to pay it back. They're doing it because the mainstream markets are saturated. And no, people wouldn't loan shark, they'd go without like they did before. We've haven't had a significant unregulated loan problem in this country for decades and decades.

As for the Cisse issue, it is complete baloney. This isn't about a moral stance regarding a pay day lender, it's manipulation and self promotion by somebody using their religion as a smokescreen. The Quran doesn't say "Wonga is Usury and anyone that promotes it will go to hell" . It sure as heck says that all Muslims must oppose gambling and counsel their friends, which he would unlikely be able to do sat at a black jack table...

As I said, I don't care about the religious aspect, the bloke's right that Wonga are wrong 'uns whatever his motives. And inconsistency in religion is a universal thing.

[The Casual Connoisseur]

The legality of contraband substances is policed by wealth, the same can be said for borrowing money, if anyone has a spare few hours pm me & I can bore you stupid.

[chipdawg]

I'd love to see some industry figures on proportions of people who use it sensibly. They don't publish those though for obvious reasons.

And yes of course people who use this have maxed overdrafts and credit cards or they'd be using those first.

People who get into this kind of trouble are typically poorly educated and don't understand how to plan finances. They quickly get into a state where they can't (not won't, can't) pay all their commitments.

Lending them more is guaranteed to put them deeper in. We didn't have huge consumer debt problems 20 years ago when high risks loans simply weren't offered. We have the technology now to ensure people can't get into a state where they're unable to pay, but these companies choose to lend anyway because they can get paid through recovery (CCJs).

What we really need is practical education in schools on household budgets, finance and the like. That won't fix it for a generation at least though.

I worked in credit risk for 7 years building the systems that make lending decisions. I can tell you for sure that the propaganda these businesses put out (which is what you're relaying) and their actual business models are vastly different. They certainly don't turn down anything like 60% of requests and nor does the retail finance industry in general. Credit unions are generally a US phenomenon, we don't have them in the UK. They are usually small scale - two or three banks joined together - so operate at very low risk.

These payday lending firms CANNOT have a model based on people paying back on time, it's not actually possible. What they're doing is lending at a much higher risk profile and mitigating it by charging ridiculous fees, knowing that they can litigate and get a property charge or attachment of earnings against benefits to pay it back. They're doing it because the mainstream markets are saturated. And no, people wouldn't loan shark, they'd go without like they did before. We've haven't had a significant unregulated loan problem in this country for decades and decades.

As I said, I don't care about the religious aspect, the bloke's right that Wonga are wrong 'uns whatever his motives. And inconsistency in religion is a universal thing.

I won't question most of your points as you seem far better placed to answer them than me, but I can tell you that Credit Unions are very much in existence in the UK; I'm sat approximately half a mile from the office of a very well used one in Barnsley right now

One question though; the people who are desperate for money, where do you propose they acquire money from if the traditional money lending routes have been exhausted? Obviously they should have managed their finances better in the first place, but we'll presume they need the money for food, water and heat for their children

[Nibor]

I won't question most of your points as you seem far better placed to answer them than me, but I can tell you that Credit Unions are very much in existence in the UK; I'm sat approximately half a mile from the office of a very well used one in Barnsley right now

I should have said we don't have those anywhere near so much in the UK. In the US there are around 10,000 of them if I remember rightly and are a very large proportion of the finance market. Over here they're a tiny fraction. In both cases they lend at very low risk profiles compared to the rest of the industry.

One question though; the people who are desperate for money, where do you propose they acquire money from if the traditional money lending routes have been exhausted? Obviously they should have managed their finances better in the first place, but we'll presume they need the money for food, water and heat for their children

Did children starve or freeze in the UK in the 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s when we didn't have these options? Nope. Fact is, supply drives demand here. People borrow what they don't _need_ because they can (thanks to marketing like the shirt sponsorship).

[chipdawg]

I should have said we don't have those anywhere near so much in the UK. In the US there are around 10,000 of them if I remember rightly and are a very large proportion of the finance market. Over here they're a tiny fraction. In both cases they lend at very low risk profiles compared to the rest of the industry.

Did children starve or freeze in the UK in the 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s when we didn't have these options? Nope. Fact is, supply drives demand here. People borrow what they don't _need_ because they can (thanks to marketing like the shirt sponsorship).

Fair enough, point taken

I think thats quite a wooly point to bs honest. Plenty of children spent those periods living below the poverty line, as many do now. If you take, for example, the coal field communities during the miners strike, many children probably survived on school meals (which are no longer free except for the very poorest) and the kindness of strangers. As we no longer have such community coherence in modern day Britain, those societal safety nets that kept those kids heads above water no longer exist. Benefits have been squeezed and work is still scarce. I think you underestimate the pressures being faced by the poorest in society. I agree that in a socialist society such as ours, it's unlikely that malnourished children would be seen dying on the streets (not for lack of trying from George Osborne) but I don't think the safety nets that once existed are there for, say, a working family who live hand to mouth and their boiler breaks down in December

[Nibor]

Fair enough, point taken

I think thats quite a wooly point to bs honest. Plenty of children spent those periods living below the poverty line, as many do now. If you take, for example, the coal field communities during the miners strike, many children probably survived on school meals (which are no longer free except for the very poorest) and the kindness of strangers. As we no longer have such community coherence in modern day Britain, those societal safety nets that kept those kids heads above water no longer exist. Benefits have been squeezed and work is still scarce. I think you underestimate the pressures being faced by the poorest in society. I agree that in a socialist society such as ours, it's unlikely that malnourished children would be seen dying on the streets (not for lack of trying from George Osborne) but I don't think the safety nets that once existed are there for, say, a working family who live hand to mouth and their boiler breaks down in December

Every time you think of a scenario where these loans might be useful, think about the following month where you have to pay up the whole amount you couldn't afford plus say 20%. How's that really help you in any of those circumstances? Mostly it puts off a problem and makes it bigger.

Also, your typical profile of a payday loaner is not someone who is financially responsible, and very temporarily unlucky. More like it's someone already massively overburdened with debt who fancies a weekend on the smash before they default all their credit and get a CCJ. They end up financially screwed over for decades at the end of this path.

[dezgimed]

Every time you think of a scenario where these loans might be useful, think about the following month where you have to pay up the whole amount you couldn't afford plus say 20%. How's that really help you in any of those circumstances? Mostly it puts off a problem and makes it bigger.

Also, your typical profile of a payday loaner is not someone who is financially responsible, and very temporarily unlucky. More like it's someone already massively overburdened with debt who fancies a weekend on the smash before they default all their credit and get a CCJ. They end up financially screwed over for decades at the end of this path.

I think in a bigger number of cases its more like 'oh fck the car needs maintenance and we need a new boiler' in 1 month where in reality only 1 of those 2 things can be covered by the disposable income available. Alot of it is just cash flow timing rather than reliance to survive month on month.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

The legality of contraband substances is policed by wealth

Blimey, something I agree with you about at last!

[biggythecity]

God theres some lucky people on here,quotes like stupid people an should have managed their money better,some people ARNT lucky enough to earn enough to be able to save for things like cars going wrong with the car,etc,some people just dont understand real life and live on planet goose, nobody wants to borrow money from these people for some its a necessity

[chipdawg]

Every time you think of a scenario where these loans might be useful, think about the following month where you have to pay up the whole amount you couldn't afford plus say 20%. How's that really help you in any of those circumstances? Mostly it puts off a problem and makes it bigger.

Also, your typical profile of a payday loaner is not someone who is financially responsible, and very temporarily unlucky. More like it's someone already massively overburdened with debt who fancies a weekend on the smash before they default all their credit and get a CCJ. They end up financially screwed over for decades at the end of this path.

I agree to a point; the only people who benefit from this kind of loan would be, for example, someone who's car broke down and they need £100 to fix it straight away for work, etc. If you have a month to plan many people would be able to cope with that, but I am presuming a level of financial acumen and responsibility. A lot of people in this country have that sense of financial sense though

As for your example of the average customer, well its not a scenario that engenders a lot of sympathy and I would hazard that someone with that attitude to money would probably behave as such anyway buy get the cash from a source that might cause more damage- a friend, a pawn shop or an illegal lender. I'm not sure that 'some people are arseholes' is an argument against the existence of an industry

[CiderHider]

Just being in a casino is an offense to Islam so to say he is not warring Wonga on his short for religious reasons makes him a hypocrite

Well not entirely true, at least there are ways round it, Malaysia is an Islamic country, there are many Casinos and they all have to 'operate' from abroad to get round the whole Religious thing, Check out the Genting highlands Casino resort. Amazing place and full of Arabs gambling.

[CiderHider]

God theres some lucky people on here,quotes like stupid people an should have managed their money better,some people ARNT lucky enough to earn enough to be able to save for things like cars going wrong with the car,etc,some people just dont understand real life and live on planet goose, nobody wants to borrow money from these people for some its a necessity

This is precisely it. pay 3000% interest or starve, your choice, or their choice and for some it's a no brainer.

This is bear naked extortion of the vulnerable, not only are the interest rates criminal, but fail to pay it back (and many people can't,) and your debt begins to grow and grow. From borrowing a little to hold you out till payday people can end up spiraling into further debt just to get by.

[surreyred]

If we had a government that really did give a dam about the poorer people in society they would use one or more of the banks currently owned largely by the tax payer to provide small short term loans at reasonable rates. (Say for someone to have a car repaired to allow them to get to work). If they did this the likes of Wonga would be gone in 6 months.

But this will not what using tax payers money to bail out the banks was for, it was for making sure a couple of old Eatonians bailed their old school chums out whose greed caused this mess to start will.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

If we had a government that really did give a dam about the poorer people in society they would use one or more of the banks currently owned largely by the tax payer to provide small short term loans at reasonable rates. (Say for someone to have a car repaired to allow them to get to work). If they did this the likes of Wonga would be gone in 6 months.

But this will not what using tax payers money to bail out the banks was for, it was for making sure a couple of old Eatonians bailed their old school chums out whose greed caused this mess to start will.

**** me, we haven't had a government like that since the early days of Wilson in the mid 60's and unions ****** all of that up, a bit like they are trying to do to Milliband now.

[arpaul]

Refuses to play for Newcastle for religious reasons whilst they have Wonga printed across their shirts, but now pictured sat at a playing table in a Newcastle Casino back in November. Silly boy.

Whoops. pressed in error.

[TRL]

I fail to see how wonga and the like are scum preying on the stupid. At the end of the day, they want to make money. They won't make money out of those with no money. They make money out of those who have the money, but not this month.

I bet Wonga are loving those who can't afford to pay loan, a grand or so off them, then have themselves declared bankrupt! It is not in Wonga's interest to give money who may have no means to pay, it could be them losing out in the long term.

Scum certainly not. Idiots who use them, then say they didn't understand the terms.. then why did you sign them? I am sorry, being a idiot does not excuse your poor choices. There are plenty of people out there who give free advice. If you choose not to look or ask for it more fool you.

If you have some mental condition, then I presume the loan company would be negligent.

No excuses, debt breeds, sort that through the proper channels.

[redsontour]

I'd love to see some industry figures on proportions of people who use it sensibly. They don't publish those though for obvious reasons.

And yes of course people who use this have maxed overdrafts and credit cards or they'd be using those first.

People who get into this kind of trouble are typically poorly educated and don't understand how to plan finances. They quickly get into a state where they can't (not won't, can't) pay all their commitments.

Lending them more is guaranteed to put them deeper in. We didn't have huge consumer debt problems 20 years ago when high risks loans simply weren't offered. We have the technology now to ensure people can't get into a state where they're unable to pay, but these companies choose to lend anyway because they can get paid through recovery (CCJs).

What we really need is practical education in schools on household budgets, finance and the like. That won't fix it for a generation at least though.

I worked in credit risk for 7 years building the systems that make lending decisions. I can tell you for sure that the propaganda these businesses put out (which is what you're relaying) and their actual business models are vastly different. They certainly don't turn down anything like 60% of requests and nor does the retail finance industry in general. Credit unions are generally a US phenomenon, we don't have them in the UK. They are usually small scale - two or three independent small town banks joined together - so operate at very low risk.

These payday lending firms CANNOT have a model based on people paying back on time, it's not actually possible. What they're doing is lending at a much higher risk profile and mitigating it by charging ridiculous fees, knowing that they can litigate and get a property charge or attachment of earnings against benefits to pay it back. They're doing it because the mainstream markets are saturated. And no, people wouldn't loan shark, they'd go without like they did before. We've haven't had a significant unregulated loan problem in this country for decades and decades.

As I said, I don't care about the religious aspect, the bloke's right that Wonga are wrong 'uns whatever his motives. And inconsistency in religion is a universal thing.

Presumably the anger you have towards an industry (lending) that apparently (7 years in risk) previously fed you has clouded your judgement. I didn't say pay day loan companies turn down 60% of requests, I said Crefit Unions, and the specific example I was giving (due to direct access and knowledge) is of a credit union in Sussex who, and I would be delighted to share the data with you, turn down 60% of applications, so hope that helps. There are also over 500 credit Unions in the UK, so to say we don't have them is simply incorrect. I have no idea how much payday loan comps turn down because I have nothing to do with them.

And to suggest that past experience means people would sinply go without if they couldnt borrow legally, in a world now obsessed with greed and personal gain, is just frankly naive bull.

Also, just to reiterate, if you charge 2000% apr, then you do not need late payers, you simply need borrowers who repay, and a constant stream of them.

Regarding education, perfect, I've personally volunteered for such a scheme, in schools last year which was very fulfilling,

[Nibor]

Presumably the anger you have towards an industry (lending) that apparently (7 years in risk) previously fed you has clouded your judgement.

Not anger really, more disgust. And only towards the irresponsible lenders.

I didn't say pay day loan companies turn down 60% of requests, I said Crefit Unions, and the specific example I was giving (due to direct access and knowledge) is of a credit union in Sussex who, and I would be delighted to share the data with you, turn down 60% of applications, so hope that helps. There are also over 500 credit Unions in the UK, so to say we don't have them is simply incorrect. I have no idea how much payday loan comps turn down because I have nothing to do with them.

I clarified - there are relatively few credit unions in the UK, they are a tiny sliver of the credit market and they are poles apart from payday loan companies. Their turn down rate isn't relevant is it? You're obviously quite defensive about credit unions but they're not what I'm objecting to at all, they do a good job by and large. They're hugely risk averse compared to the rest.

And to suggest that past experience means people would sinply go without if they couldnt borrow legally, in a world now obsessed with greed and personal gain, is just frankly naive bull.

If it's not available they'll go without. That's exactly what they do after they've had the CCJs and they can't get credit at all. They certainly won't go to loan sharks, that's a fantasy propagated by the payday loan companies. It didn't happen before them and it won't happen after they're gone.

Also, just to reiterate, if you charge 2000% apr, then you do not need late payers, you simply need borrowers who repay, and a constant stream of them.

This is nonsense. There is a fixed overhead on handling applications that makes the margins when people pay up on time barely profitable when the lending amounts are so low. This is a typical problem in microfinance. You saw it in interest free retail credit years ago where you had to pay up in 12 months or it'd go onto a 5 year 29% APR deal - they were relying on a proportion of people forgetting or not doing it. Just the same as the payday loan companies rely on people not paying on time so they can charge the penalty interest and slap on a load of recovery fees.

Honestly, if you work with a credit union you see the sparkliest part of lending. These guys are bottom feeders.

Regarding education, perfect, I've personally volunteered for such a scheme, in schools last year which was very fulfilling,

Great stuff. I'd like it to be in the curriculum, it's far more important than many subjects that are I think.

[David Brent]

Dispute resolved

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23455637

They've given him more Wonga?

[Red-Robbo]

TBH I see no problem with Wonga. At least they are very clear what their repayments and penalties are - unlike Barclaycard et al.

Short-term loans will inevitably mean very high APR. If you borrow £20 off a mate for 30 days then reward him with a £4 pint when you pay him back, you've paid the equivalent of nearly 800% APR.

It's fatuous to believe all Wonga's loans are for fat chavs to buy 60" TVs or fortnights in Malia which they cannot afford. The way earnings have not kept pace with inflation means lots of ordinary, organised people - even in (gulp!) middle class occupations - may be caught out by an unexpected bills, for example car repairs.

The fact that most banks are shrinking from lending to customers to concentrate on the more profitable activities of casino capitalism, combined with the tyranny of credit scoring, means many are estranged from the old-fashioned avenues to meet these unexpected emergencies - hence the growth in payday lenders. Blame government economic policy and the big banks rather than the founders of such services.

Incidentally, it was Cisse's agent who said he wouldn't wear the Wonga shirt for religious reasons, and presumably he knows the man's motivations.

I'd say decrying 'usury' whilst at the same time getting pissed up at a casino makes Cisse yet another religious hypocrite.

[TinnionForEngland]

Changed his mind, probably in embarrassment!

[Jesus]

Papa Cisse has said sorry to Newcastle fans for not wearing the Newcastle shirt. He's told fans he will give 1324% in the future.

[cider-manc]

Perhaps the Christian team members will follow suit....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23433955

[Fodbarmyarmy]

WONGA are the devil.....official

[downendcity]

If we had a government that really did give a dam about the poorer people in society they would use one or more of the banks currently owned largely by the tax payer to provide small short term loans at reasonable rates. (Say for someone to have a car repaired to allow them to get to work). If they did this the likes of Wonga would be gone in 6 months.

But this will not what using tax payers money to bail out the banks was for, it was for making sure a couple of old Eatonians bailed their old school chums out whose greed caused this mess to start will.

I hadn't realised that Brown and Darling were Old Etonians!

[downendcity]

TBH I see no problem with Wonga. At least they are very clear what their repayments and penalties are - unlike Barclaycard et al.

Short-term loans will inevitably mean very high APR. If you borrow £20 off a mate for 30 days then reward him with a £4 pint when you pay him back, you've paid the equivalent of nearly 800% APR.

If Carling did personal loans ............................

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Great evidence of why religion should steer clear of politics, the archbishop of Canterbury makes his comments about the evils of Wonga and later in the day Lambeth palace have to admit that the C of E are indirect investors, couldn't make it up.

[Aizoon]

It is all to do with religion. Have you read the link? You cant pick and choose with religious beliefs, it's all or nothing, otherwise why have religion atall?

Good question that. Islam isn't like C of E where you can believe anything you like, as long as it doesn't frighten the horses.

[Drew Peacock]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23078746