Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 The thing is, it's not even relevant whether anybody else could do the job, the experience we have of recent managers is that they don't. Acknowledging that the job needs doing, why would we shortsightedly get rid of a manager who is doing it? Very few managers take a long term view, we have one who does, and it is absolutely what we need. Unfortunately some can't get past the short term results despite the obvious problems we've had with that approach. I find it best to ignore the silly straw man arguments, nobody has claimed the results are good at the moment. The problem is very simple, Millen had a long term vision and DMC had a long term vision, Millen said no gain without pain and DMC said no gain without pain and the majority on here swallowed it both times, perhaps people are waiting for SOD's vision to start becoming more of a tangible reality before buying in to it fully, because some fans are visioned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 So in summation, yesterday I did far too much and I woke up with a sore back and decided to chillax today, I am listening to the Who's Quadrophenia as loud as I dare and come 5.15 (the best track on the album) I will be in BCFC mode, Mrs Bung in the kitchen baking her butt off and the odour of cakes, biscuits and cheese straws is driving me wild with expectation of a cup of tea with a selection of her wares, so my biggest problem is once Quadrophenia has finished what do I play next?. PS:- I like SOD and believe he might be the one, but please will the fundamentalists let me buy into his vision at my own speed and allow me criticise things I don't agree with, without accusing me of wanting him out or expecting relegation, all I want is no more excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Watts Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 It is relavent, because anyone who took the post would have had to do the same. Whether they could do it better, quicker and without the rhetoric will not be known. So we go with what we have, a manager not in form. The recent managers we have had, havent had the new new plan in effect nore the SCMP regs to contend with or the switch to youth, particularly. Del started it to a certain extent but was bound by Champs rather than League one caps. So actually we dont know if they could do better or not, because they didnt work the way we are currently. As mentioned many times. The system is not dependent on one person, so if he is not performing theoretically he can be replaced and the system will continue irrespective, which is exactly how the Swansea and Liverpool models have worked to some extent.. 8 months as explained elsewhere isnt short term unless you are talking about 4 years or more as a project and as there is nothing to quantify when or where this project has to be completed, then short term will be trotted out re infinity til the day that SOD leaves the club, whether through his own way or another. Seriously not short term on any job, ever.. Serious question here. If you started a team of your own from scratch, how long would you expect, or want, people to give you for your ideas to get through? There was a massive squad overhaul over the close season, and therefore this is effectively what SoD is working with. A new team, with a new ethos and a new direction. This is not the team that went down. Many of those are no longer involved. This is not the team, nor to a large extent, the club that SoD inherited in January. In my opinion we are not looking at 8 months, we are looking at 3-4 so far, with 6-9 competetive games played in that time. In my opinion. Which is the thing about this wonderful game we all love and hate...Opinions are held by all and many of them differ greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 The thing is, it's not even relevant whether anybody else could do the job, the experience we have of recent managers is that they don't. Acknowledging that the job needs doing, why would we shortsightedly get rid of a manager who is doing it? Very few managers take a long term view, we have one who does, and it is absolutely what we need. Unfortunately some can't get past the short term results despite the obvious problems we've had with that approach. I find it best to ignore the silly straw man arguments, nobody has claimed the results are good at the moment. Totally agree Nibor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Serious question here. If you started a team of your own from scratch, how long would you expect, or want, people to give you for your ideas to get through? There was a massive squad overhaul over the close season, and therefore this is effectively what SoD is working with. A new team, with a new ethos and a new direction. This is not the team that went down. Many of those are no longer involved. This is not the team, nor to a large extent, the club that SoD inherited in January. In my opinion we are not looking at 8 months, we are looking at 3-4 so far, with 6-9 competetive games played in that time. In my opinion. Which is the thing about this wonderful game we all love and hate...Opinions are held by all and many of them differ greatly. Unlike ar$eholes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 It's a leading question, mainly because every club has had player churn over the summer, we are not unique. Coventry have had 18 out 2 in for example. so it's not a 'massive' thing. It's 'normal' and expected! Serious Answer re team from scratch Starting from scratch, ie no players, no club, never played a game at all ever or previously existed and assuming it is a pro or a serious semi- pro out fit, I'd recruit players within an already defined vision, and mission statement, and then give a welcome pack that would require the read through clearly defining their role within the squad and what they should be achieving going forward. Each player know's their role, where they fit and what the teams and overall objective is for the club, team and their own development going forward Depending on contact time. I'd want the basics of the style of play sorted and any glaring errors worked on with 6-8 weeks,which is more than doable with 3-4 days contact a week , plus homework for associated players as to their own fitness and opposition team and player dossiers. The full thing should be in action and fully implemented within 3 months. It's not hard to do, just means that leg work should be done and focus remains tis all rather than excuses etc. Et voila new regime, new direction new way of playing, from scratch in less than 8 months.. Next. So when the results don't come within a few games and sections of the support get on your back, your methods and vision come in for flack, your personality is loathed, would you expect more time and understanding or be fully braced for the sack as you are an out of form manager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 I wasn't intending to be negative, but there has to be some light at the end of the tunnel for our young, hungry, ambitious players. On the whole it looks like we are done with expensive journeymen happy to have a limited role and here for the pay cheque rather than to progress their career or the clubs position. Our new band of players have to feel progress is being made and want that both for themselves and Bristol City, if not they will look elsewhere or other teams will look at them. Once the right balance is found the team has to develop together and stay together in my opinion. In the past it seems we don't tend to start the season well, all the preparation and we don't hit the ground running. Maybe it's because we usually have quite a high turnover of players coming and going in the summer, it takes a few months to settle down. If we can keep the bulk of the team together, as I said above, with only a few changes this will surely help us to find our feet quicker? Another point, when the fixtures came out nearly everyone said we had a very tough block of games together. Well that proved to be right, maybe we've now passed through the worst for a while and will be off the blocks tonight. I agree, especially about the fixtures although I expect Saturdays games to be a tougher one than today's or next weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 If say I'd been insitu for 8 months, the team weren't consistent, tactics were shonky and I'd won 1 league game in the last twenty, then yeah I'd expect a fair bit of criticism as clearly things weren't working as they were meant to. Because I wasn't performing then I would expect my performance to come under review and scrutiny and if the end result was that I was relieved of my position then, that would be the end of the result. Best of luck in my future endeavours and all. So essentially your saying your not behind SOD as he is failing in your opinion and would not be surprised to see him sacked imminentely? Id give you more time personally if i could see what you were trying to achieve and the shoots of recovery were there. By all means keep banging on about 1 win in 20, i dont think it matters to anyone more than yourself on here. Again, it just keeps going around in circles, SOD has not had 8 months with this team, he has had about 3. We have played only a handful of competitive matches. To judge the results and on the pitch performances this season by including the peformances from last season is wholly unfair and totally unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 So essentially your saying your not behind SOD as he is failing in your opinion and would not be surprised to see him sacked imminentely? Id give you more time personally if i could see what you were trying to achieve and the shoots of recovery were there. By all means keep banging on about 1 win in 20, i dont think it matters to anyone more than yourself on here. Again, it just keeps going around in circles, SOD has not had 8 months with this team, he has had about 3. We have played only a handful of competitive matches. To judge the results and on the pitch performances this season by including the peformances from last season is wholly unfair and totally unrealistic. it does if some of last seasons mistakes are being duplicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 it does if some of last years mistakes are being duplicated. Specific ones or just the fact that we dont seem to be able to win many games? My point being, different team, different setup, the man himself said his plan was to make us as hard to beat as possible....as that turns out, it wasnt that hard! I just think its unfair to carry that over into this seasons appraisal of the bloke, it was pretty much a poison chalice to take when he did, harsh to judge him on that IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Specific ones or just the fact that we dont seem to be able to win many games? My point being, different team, different setup, the man himself said his plan was to make us as hard to beat as possible....as that turns out, it wasnt that hard! I just think its unfair to carry that over into this seasons appraisal of the bloke, it was pretty much a poison chalice to take when he did, harsh to judge him on that IMO. i've already posted this once, tinkering with selections even after a win, within that tinkering playing players out of there positions, having too much faith in players who have serially let him and his 2 predecessors down, not stopping the midfield backing off and backing off some more until ooops it's a penalty or oooops it's a dangerous free kick or ooops they've just walked through us again and scored, allowing the team to panic into lumping long balls if things are not going right and late substitutions usually after the game is lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 i've already posted this once, tinkering with selections even after a win, within that tinkering playing players out of there positions, having too much faith in players who have serially let him and his 2 predecessors down, not stopping the midfield backing off and backing off some more until ooops it's a penalty or oooops it's a dangerous free kick or ooops they've just walked through us again and scored, allowing the team to panic into lumping long balls if things are not going right and late substitutions usually after the game is lost. That sounds much more like last season than this one to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 That sounds much more like last season than this one to me. and that sounds like selective memory to me my friend, did he make changes after our 3 cup wins?, has he played Wynter out wide?, Bryant and Wagstaff in the middle?, how much more evidence did he need re-Fontaine and Killkenny?, watch most of Coventry's goals and MK Dons goals, watch the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half of the gas game and saturday 1st substitution 70 mins and 2nd 80 mins, we were already 2 nil down after 50 odd minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 It's a leading question, mainly because every club has had player churn over the summer, we are not unique. Coventry have had 18 out 2 in for example. so it's not a 'massive' thing. It's 'normal' and expected! Serious Answer re team from scratch Starting from scratch, ie no players, no club, never played a game at all ever or previously existed and assuming it is a pro or a serious semi- pro out fit, I'd recruit players within an already defined vision, and mission statement, and then give a welcome pack that would require the read through clearly defining their role within the squad and what they should be achieving going forward. Each player know's their role, where they fit and what the teams and overall objective is for the club, team and their own development going forward Depending on contact time. I'd want the basics of the style of play sorted and any glaring errors worked on with 6-8 weeks,which is more than doable with 3-4 days contact a week , plus homework for associated players as to their own fitness and opposition team and player dossiers. The full thing should be in action and fully implemented within 3 months. It's not hard to do, just means that leg work should be done and focus remains tis all rather than excuses etc. Et voila new regime, new direction new way of playing, from scratch in less than 8 months.. Next. .............................................................. ....................onwards and upwards to promotion, cup glory, the champions league , global domination infinity and beyond!! Note to SOD. RMLF says it's simple, so get your finger out and sort it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Interesting one this. I think that with Bristol City , SOD has a proper project and he strikes me as a project sort of guy. When we were kids, my brother and I used to build Airfix kits. Sixpence from Terrett and Taylor in Staple Hill and we'd hardly get in the house than the packet was ripped open and the glue was opened and pieces snapped from the spurs and glued together. Cursory glances at the plans hindered progress, and the model spitfire or whatever was built in next to no time ready for painting - the best bit. Only then did you discover that the glue was on the inside of the cockpit, there were usually a few odd bits and pieces left over and that you had forgotten to paint the inside of the cockpit. Invariably a wing or undercarriage would fall of in next to no time. SOD would be the guy building HMS Victory. He would have the plans on the desk, his tools neatly laid out, and all the pieces checked and in order for use. He would then work methodically through the construction process as laid out in the plans , taking time to cut each piece off and file the rough edges. He would paint all the miniscule pieces before gluing them in place. He wouldn't get bored or fed up after a few hours ( as we used to do) because he would probably have worked out how many hours it would take to make and he would know that doing things in the right order and taking the right amount of time would give the best results. I bet his Airfix models didn't have bits falling off and smudge marks on the cockpit glass! He has the backing from the board to undertake a long term plan, that involves rebuilding the club from top to bottom. How many managers are given such a chance? Ferguson was given such a chance at Man U but he says that he doesn't believe a manager would be given the same time to do that these days. If so, and BCFC are prepared to give SOD the time to do this, then he knows he is a lucky man and will never get a chance like it again. While we might not be Man U we are not a Micky Mouse club either and have real potential if we can get it right, and Swansea show what is possible. All of this being the case, why would he get fed up and walk away when he has only just started. He's at the boring stage of gluing the keel together and knows there is plenty still to do before he gets to the fun bits like masts, rigging and sails. and painting the guns. I reckon he will see it though and tolerate the sceptical fans and having to explain things again if he has to and until results start to speak for themselves. I like your analogy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Please let's just inject a bit of realism into the debate, yes there are some undeniable pluses, younger/talented squad and the occasional glimpse into the future with a nice fluent passing game, but most things being attributed to SOD are unquantifiable at this point, we simply don't know and until we develop into a consistent side none of it is provable and we are way shy of that achievement. and please don't elevate SOD into something his record proves he is clearly not and finally patience is one thing but one poster intimated that even relegation into the 4th division is OK if SOD deems it so, bollox that has to be totally and utterly unthinkable and unpalatable. I just hope and pray that the 'it's only 6 games' dosen't develop into well there is still '30 more points to fight for' or even the wonderfully uttered words of "we might have to start winning ugly", because that was the mantra uttered by SOD's 2 predecessors. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Rick Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Just listened to his interview, you can tell he is getting cheesed off.. He should stop reading the bull on here about our little so called crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 He should stop reading the bull on here about our little so called crisis. or the bull about how infallible he is. Not that somebody like SOD would come onto this site in the first place, he is simply not that insecure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Rick Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 or the bull about how infallible he is. Not that somebody like SOD would come onto this site in the first place, he is simply not that insecure. I'm going to quote SO'D and use it as my generic answer. "Change is rarely a pain-free, smooth, ride." And my part... "Deal with it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 or the bull about how infallible he is. Not that somebody like SOD would come onto this site in the first place, he is simply not that insecure. Of course he would and has alluded to doing so, he has cited comments made by fans/journo's on twitter before as well. Gary Johnson viewed this forum as well as his brothers. People on the board view this forum (Jon Lansdown posts here), I've no doubt players have viewed this forum...how naive are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 I'm going to quote SO'D and use it as my generic answer. "Change is rarely a pain-free, smooth, ride." And my part... "Deal with it." Here's mine, the same people are peddling the same arguments that were peddled about Millen and DMC, beware of false prophets. Of course he would and has alluded to doing so, he has cited comments made by fans/journo's on twitter before as well. Gary Johnson viewed this forum as well as his brothers. People on the board view this forum (Jon Lansdown posts here), I've no doubt players have viewed this forum...how naive are you? if he does bigger fool him, so not so intellectual then. Should be explaining the meaning of being goalside of your opponent when defending, might be timed better spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opeth67 Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 It amazes me that there can be so much negativity on here! Although I possible will become very negative and depressed if we are still without a few wins by the end of the year - but the good news is we are only in mid September. Yes - we are all concerned with no wins yet (in the league), but my feeling is - under the last two or three managers we spent £40m or so - under SOD the team is no worse on average, in fact seems to be - in the main - playing a "better" brand of football, and at very little cost to the club. And it has great potential to get better. For me that is encouraging, and at the moment I am still feeling guardedly optimistic. So keep at it SOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 and that sounds like selective memory to me my friend, did he make changes after our 3 cup wins?, has he played Wynter out wide?, Bryant and Wagstaff in the middle?, how much more evidence did he need re-Fontaine and Killkenny?, watch most of Coventry's goals and MK Dons goals, watch the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half of the gas game and saturday 1st substitution 70 mins and 2nd 80 mins, we were already 2 nil down after 50 odd minutes. Please let's just inject a bit of realism into the debate, yes there are some undeniable pluses, younger/talented squad and the occasional glimpse into the future with a nice fluent passing game, but most things being attributed to SOD are unquantifiable at this point, we simply don't know and until we develop into a consistent side none of it is provable and we are way shy of that achievement. and please don't elevate SOD into something his record proves he is clearly not and finally patience is one thing but one poster intimated that even relegation into the 4th division is OK if SOD deems it so, bollox that has to be totally and utterly unthinkable and unpalatable. I just hope and pray that the 'it's only 6 games' dosen't develop into well there is still '30 more points to fight for' or even the wonderfully uttered words of "we might have to start winning ugly", because that was the mantra uttered by SOD's 2 predecessors. Amen. I did just write a fat reply to the first quote on my touch screen phone then promptly touched something and lost the bloody lot! On reading the second, thats pretty much where i am TBH but maybe with a hint more positivity. The bottom line for me in all of this, is why are we judging him 6 games into a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 I did just write a fat reply to the first quote on my touch screen phone then promptly touched something and lost the bloody lot! On reading the second, thats pretty much where i am TBH but maybe with a hint more positivity. The bottom line for me in all of this, is why are we judging him 6 games into a season. Again I am not really seeing what you are, I am seeing people merely questioning other peoples blind faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Essentially I'm saying that he is the not in form part of the system at present, I may have covered that a million times already, he needs to start showing that he is capable of delivering rather than waffle on about it. So we are now on revisionism then re SOD and not having 8 months? Clearly a different SOD took over in January, this must be a clone version or something then, the grasping at straws is overwhelming. Okay if you wanna do it that way, No manager has had their team since before the start of the season by that reckoning and we sit 22nd on merit with no wins in the league and victories over Crystal Palace ressies, a lower league team and Gillingham in the cup. All clubs have all had new players, and players leave and even changes of management after we have. Only Us, Gillingham (who we mullered in the cup, but couldn't beat in the league remember) and Notts County havent actually won a game this season in the league. We're wildly inconsistent, unable to defend and set up poorly time and time again, which is no different to er last year under SOD. So, performances over results then, when we arent performing in most matches? Awesome! Judging by the performances this season I'll go with exactly what EMB has said plus pretty much anyone can and still does score at will and we are still reliant on one player ( JET, instead of Albert) to inspire a victory. As said before it's no different to last season. So why should he be immune from genuine and justified criticism? I think part of the difference in opinion is that i was prepared to draw a line under last season as we came into this one and you are not. You base a lot of what you are saying on the time he has already had last season to work his magic. Be fair, how last season would he/board of been able to have made as many changes to the side and behind the scenes as he has during the off season. Then add to that, until he knew what division he would be in, its a bit tricky to plan for the season after. Its clear to see surely that the team is setup different and has a different style from the relegation side? Dont get me wrong, we get 20 games in and we're stuck down the bottom, then of course the alarm bells begin to ring and you have to start thinking about the worst and the option of changing manager. That would be a crying shame for it to end that way as i think his appointment and the restructure of the club are one of the best things to happen to the club in years. As an aside, don't know if you caught this story in recent weeks... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23724517 I wonder what our norm actually is (easy to say relegation fodder!). I think we will be mid-table come the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opeth67 Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 I haven't actually seen a lot of "blind faith" on here regarding SOD? Most of what I have seen (if not all) has backed up that blind faith with sound reasoning, logic and sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 I haven't actually seen a lot of "blind faith" on here regarding SOD? Most of what I have seen (if not all) has backed up that blind faith with sound reasoning, logic and sense. and mainly unquantifiable at this moment in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Again I am not really seeing what you are, I am seeing people merely questioning other peoples blind faith. Gotcha. Thats a seperate issue there and not part of my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Watts Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Please let's just inject a bit of realism into the debate, yes there are some undeniable pluses, younger/talented squad and the occasional glimpse into the future with a nice fluent passing game, but most things being attributed to SOD are unquantifiable at this point, we simply don't know and until we develop into a consistent side none of it is provable and we are way shy of that achievement. and please don't elevate SOD into something his record proves he is clearly not and finally patience is one thing but one poster intimated that even relegation into the 4th division is OK if SOD deems it so, bollox that has to be totally and utterly unthinkable and unpalatable. I just hope and pray that the 'it's only 6 games' dosen't develop into well there is still '30 more points to fight for' or even the wonderfully uttered words of "we might have to start winning ugly", because that was the mantra uttered by SOD's 2 predecessors. Amen. That's likely my comment you're referring to about the plan continuing....typically without actually reading anything else I said in a subsequent post when someone else questioned it. My comment that if we go down the long term project continues was addressing someone else's question about what happens to the same if we get relegated. Clearly I'm not wanting us to go down. Clearly I do not think it's palatable for us to go down. That's absurd. What I am saying is that if we do go down, then I wouldn't want us to just say - you know what, let's abandon our new philosophy and just try and buy our way out of this mess. I believe that the idea that the club is trying to work with is absolutely the right idea and will ultimately bring us back onto a sustainable and hopefully successful footing, and we should still try to achieve those goals regardless of where we finish this season... Like I say, ask a Swansea fan if he feels that trying to adopt this philosophy was the worst thing they ever did. It's definitely the model that we need to aspire to in my eyes. Obviously my preference is to start this recovery from our current position, but I wouldn't give up on the idea if we did go down this year. Which, by the way, we won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 I don't think I can keep going around and around it's making me dizzy. We are just batting the same arguement back an forth. Respect your posts, so I'm happy just to say, see where we are at the seasons end, I will be perfectly happy to eat humble pie if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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