Sod's Shrewsbury Programme Notes.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

No read some of his earlier posts, he meant what he wrote.

20 league games.

Bottom line is this, far too many even on this particular post, don't want any kind of debate whatsoever in fact in general are the more aggressive and blindly believe if you criticise SOD you want him out and believe we will be relegated, it couldn't be further from the truth.

[spudski]

Not Saturday for me. Go back to the opening game against Bradford, you could see the way we were trying to do things. Patience in keeping the ball, Wynter taking the ball off the defence and playing into midfield. fast forward to Saturday and it was keep posession at the back for a bit then launch it forward.

No doubt the green shoots are there, but Saturday we regressed, which will happen with youngsters no doubt, but I think a lot of the reactions on here since Saturday are because we appeared to take a step backwards.

Understandably there are going to be games like Saturday... and there will be more i'm sure.

It's just so over reactive on here imho.

Fans imho need to stop looking at our league position for a while. It means nothing right now.

A win tonight and a result from our game in hand and if the keeper hadn't had a miracle display at Gillingham we'd be mid table.

Ok... that's all supposition... but it's way too early in the season for the negative reactions from some of our fans based on our league position.

[downendcity]

I was being deliberately melodramatic yes.....

Although EBM this isn't a dig or anything at all, but am genuinely interested to know what very similar mistakes to many of his predecessors you think he's making?

Taking the Bristol City managers job seems to be the common mistake.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I was being deliberately melodramatic yes.....

Although EBM this isn't a dig or anything at all, but am genuinely interested to know what very similar mistakes to many of his predecessors you think he's making?

OK, Tinkering with selections even after a win, within that tinkering playing players out of there positions, having too much faith in players who have serially let him and his 2 predecessors down, not stopping the midfield backing off and backing off some more until ooops it's a penalty or oooops it's a dangerous free kick or ooops they've just walked through us again and scored, allowing the team to panic into lumping long balls if things are not going right and late substitutions usually after the game is lost.

Understandably there are going to be games like Saturday... and there will be more i'm sure.

It's just so over reactive on here imho.

Fans imho need to stop looking at our league position for a while. It means nothing right now.

A win tonight and a result from our game in hand and if the keeper hadn't had a miracle display at Gillingham we'd be mid table.

Ok... that's all supposition... but it's way too early in the season for the negative reactions from some of our fans based on our league position.

Only from the people who will not allow the slightest of criticism.

[Nibor]

Back in the early 80's Nick Faldo was a rising star. He had already won tournaments and had a golf swing to die for. His future looked bright and there was understandable talk of him being Britain's great hope as a major winner.

Then he went to coach David Leadbetter and asked him to completely remodel his swing. This was not because their was anything wrong with the old swing, but , because he had realised that his original swing, elegant and effective though it was, would not stand up under the pressure of major championships, and Faldo wanted to be a major winner. His results went backwards while he worked on his new swing and as a young, keen hacker at the time I thought he had thrown away a promising career by making what seemed to me an unnecessary change.

It would have been easy for Faldo to ditch his remodelled swing and go back to the old one that had served him well, and seen him a winner in the past. However, had he done that is unlikely that he would have gone on to win 6 major championships. Faldo persevered and his conviction was proved correct and he became Britain's most successful modern day golfer. He had a goal and a plan, and the first part of that was putting the right fundamentals in place, which he knew would give him the ability to go on to greater success, even though it meant results went backwards in the short term.

When we last got out of this division we did so under a results orientated manager. He put together a team of triers and battlers, who he could motivate to achieve beyond their individual abilities, as we saw the first season a back in the championship. During that time I remember the criticism from many fans that wanted to be entertained and to see our team playing decent football instead of scrambling boring 1-0 wins ( oh, for such boredom over the last 2/3 seasons!)

The problem was that their capacity to achieve was limited by GJ's ability to keep them motivated as they had been on the way up. Once he started to try and "improve" the team by bringing in new players, our problems started as there was no real foundation to build on and we had players playing out of position, formations and tactics chopped and changed until GJ ran out of ideas. We kept on trying and failing to defend 1-0 leads and we lost the ability to get those boring 1-0 wins, . Once GJ "lost the dressing room" the writing was on the wall, and since his departure successive managers have tried to reinvent the wheel , and while we had little bursts of success, all the while we were on a downward spiral as different managers brought in different players to try and bail out a sinking ship.

Throughout my time supporting the club, we have been a second/third tier club. There has been very little continuity and periods of success have usually been followed by longer periods in the doldrums while we chopped and changed managers in the search for success. Having seen what Swansea has achieved and how they did it, I endorse the old maxim " if you keep on doing what you've always done, you will keep on getting what you've always got", so let's try a different way. I accept that the way we've chosen doesn't come with guarantees of success or that success will be evident in the very short term. However, it seems to me to be the way to build the right foundations that will enable the club to flourish in the long term, and give the best chance of sustaining our position in the championship when we secure our next promotion, and to build further from there.

Do I understand that this journey will mean that I have to invest faith and trust in the club and manager and that the road to success might be rocky on occasions, especially early on in the process and that I might be concerned that after 6 league games we have yet to get a win? Yes.

Do I understand that other fans might not share my faith and trust? Yes

Do I understand that other fans will always look at results and league tables before considering the long term picture? Yes

Do I understand that other fans are very critical of and sceptical about most things the club is doing at the moment? Yes

Are those fans entitled to their opinion? yes

Does that make them any less a City supporter than me? No

Who looks back at their career with greater satisfaction, Colin Montgomerie or Nick Faldo?

This is a great post.

We seem to have a number of fans who'd rather be Cardiff than Swansea. I'm definitely not one of them.

SOD is slowly but surely getting the club in a position so that:

- talented young players make it through to the first team

- we have a manageable budget

- we have an attractive but effective style of play

- we improve sustainably

- we bring players in who improve and increase in value

I can't understand why some people are so short sighted to want to endanger that by changing the manager and throw cash at it for a few short term results. We've tried things that way many times and got nowhere, and we aren't even allowed to hurl cash now so it's not an option.

[glynriley]

Understandably there are going to be games like Saturday... and there will be more i'm sure.

It's just so over reactive on here imho.

Fans imho need to stop looking at our league position for a while. It means nothing right now.

A win tonight and a result from our game in hand and if the keeper hadn't had a miracle display at Gillingham we'd be mid table.

Ok... that's all supposition... but it's way too early in the season for the negative reactions from some of our fans based on our league position.

The trouble with that is football is an emotive game and people have different tolerance levels. Just because you're happy to let the team evolve at it's own pace, doesn't mean the guy sat next to you is. He may think his timing is spot on and you are blinkered by false promises. Not saying either point of view is right, but that's the way it is.

I have to agree with EMB, far too many of the posters who dare to question or criticise are getting jumped on and being treated as some sort of heretic. It seems almost fashionable on here at the minute to question other posters knowledge of football, when all it is a difference of opinion.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

This is a great post.

We seem to have a number of fans who'd rather be Cardiff than Swansea. I'm definitely not one of them.

SOD is slowly but surely getting the club in a position so that:

- talented young players make it through to the first team

- we have a manageable budget

- we have an attractive but effective style of play

- we improve sustainably

- we bring players in who improve and increase in value

I can't understand why some people are so short sighted to want to endanger that by changing the manager and throw cash at it for a few short term results. We've tried things that way many times and got nowhere, and we aren't even allowed to hurl cash now so it's not an option.

Agree with virtually everything especially the first sentence, but the final sentence infers some kind of ground swell for this opinion and it is clearly not true, I see criticism, I see frustration and I certainly see anger about the match 'product' as a whole unedifying experience, but I don't see many predictions about relegation or even even wanting SOD out, I really don't.

I see this (courtesy of Glyn Riley) "far too many of the posters who dare to question or criticise are getting jumped on and being treated as some sort of heretic. It seems almost fashionable on here at the minute to question other posters knowledge of football, when all it is a difference of opinion ".

[Nibor]

The trouble with that is football is an emotive game and people have different tolerance levels. Just because you're happy to let the team evolve at it's own pace, doesn't mean the guy sat next to you is. He may think his timing is spot on and you are blinkered by false promises. Not saying either point of view is right, but that's the way it is.

I have to agree with EMB, far too many of the posters who dare to question or criticise are getting jumped on and being treated as some sort of heretic. It seems almost fashionable on here at the minute to question other posters knowledge of football, when all it is a difference of opinion.

Not you personally but this is a bit of a common persecution complex on here. Here's the thing: If an opinion is in the minority and posted on a public forum then lots of people will post that they disagree with it. It's not being jumped on, it's normal. If you're critical, people will tend to react negatively. If you're constructive, they don't do that anywhere near as much. Not many people complaining offer alternatives.

[Nibor]

Agree with virtually everything especially the first sentence, but the final sentence infers some kind of ground swell for this opinion and it is clearly not true, I see criticism, I see frustration and I certainly see anger about the match 'product' as a whole unedifying experience, but I don't see many predictions about relegation or even even wanting SOD out, I really don't.

I see this (courtesy of Glyn Riley) "far too many of the posters who dare to question or criticise are getting jumped on and being treated as some sort of heretic. It seems almost fashionable on here at the minute to question other posters knowledge of football, when all it is a difference of opinion ".

I'd say far too many people take being disagreed with as some sort of victimisation. If your opinion is in the minority, it will be disagreed with. If you can't reason it out, more so. There's no happy clappy army, it's just that generally negative posts will attract fans defending the club particularly if they aren't constructive.

[dezgimed]

No read some of his earlier posts, he meant what he wrote.

I was talking hypothetically, hence reference to 20 games, months and months...

Perhaps if you read them yourself properly!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I'd say far too many people take being disagreed with as some sort of victimisation. If your opinion is in the minority, it will be disagreed with. If you can't reason it out, more so. There's no happy clappy army, it's just that generally negative posts will attract fans defending the club particularly if they aren't constructive.

Fine I don't fully see it that way but I do see far far more abuse in the replies aimed at people who do not fully buy into SOD's every word or deed.

and I see barely a handful who believe SOD should be sacked and that we will be relegated and I don't buy into that either.

[spudski]

What you've highlighted is so 'General' it could mean anything.

As for your last sentence... I can't disagree more. Yes the 'Results' haven't come, but the football is going in the right direction.

I think it's clear from what SoD has said, that we will have 'more pain before gain is relevant'.

Unfortunately many see that statement as him just covering his arse.

I choose to believe it... purely on the players we've brought in and the difference in game strategy we're trying to employ.

It will take more than a few months to evolve...

[Esmond Million's Bung]

What you've highlighted is so 'General' it could mean anything.

As for your last sentence... I can't disagree more. Yes the 'Results' haven't come, but the football is going in the right direction.

I think it's clear from what SoD has said, that we will have 'more pain before gain is relevant'.

Unfortunately many see that statement as him just covering his arse.

I choose to believe it... purely on the players we've brought in and the difference in game strategy we're trying to employ.

It will take more than a few months to evolve...

There you go again 'MANY', just not true the many are on your side, but I can see why anybody would see it as covering his arse.

The bottom line is the home crowds are nothing short of remarkable given our circumstances, so the fans seem to have bought into the SOD ethos, the biggest danger to this is the club seems to be doing all in it's power to **** that up with the match day experience.

[RedZoneJim]

RMLF do you disagree with him that we should've beaten Bradford and Gillingham and could've got a point against Wolves and Coventry? I know we didn't but your point about the head coach being massively out of form just doesn't tally with the performances I've watched. As he said we haven't got the points to back it up yet, but your 'massively out of form' comment says you are basing your opinion entirely on the results when, ignoring the fact we actually have won 3 games this season, I think we have shown enough in games to suggest we're more than capable of winning a few.

How many games have you actually watched this season? I understand not everyone can go to away games but I'm interested to know what evidence you've seen with you're own eyes that you're basing your view on.

[spudski]

There you go again 'MANY', just not true the many are on your side, but I can see why anybody would see it as covering his arse.

The bottom line is the home crowds are nothing short of remarkable given our circumstances, so the fans seem to have bought into the SOD ethos, the biggest danger to this is the club seems to be doing all in it's power to **** that up with the match day experience.

As for 'many' my experience is based on people I meet and know outside of the forum. I'd say peoples perspective is 50/50 at the moment... that's my experience anyway.

I never base my views purely on what people write on here... as often forum members tend to be 'Fanatical'

I try to get an overall impression and make judgements on that.

Couldn't agree more about the Club trying to bollock up the 'experience though.

[downendcity]

Agree with virtually everything especially the first sentence, but the final sentence infers some kind of ground swell for this opinion and it is clearly not true, I see criticism, I see frustration and I certainly see anger about the match 'product' as a whole unedifying experience, but I don't see many predictions about relegation or even even wanting SOD out, I really don't.

I see this (courtesy of Glyn Riley) "far too many of the posters who dare to question or criticise are getting jumped on and being treated as some sort of heretic. It seems almost fashionable on here at the minute to question other posters knowledge of football, when all it is a difference of opinion ".

Agreed - see below.

Do I understand that this journey will mean that I have to invest faith and trust in the club and manager and that the road to success might be rocky on occasions, especially early on in the process and that I might be concerned that after 6 league games we have yet to get a win? Yes.

Do I understand that other fans might not share my faith and trust? Yes

Do I understand that other fans will always look at results and league tables before considering the long term picture? Yes

Do I understand that other fans are very critical of and sceptical about most things the club is doing at the moment? Yes

Are those fans entitled to their opinion? yes

Does that make them any less a City supporter than me? No

Who looks back at their career with greater satisfaction, Colin Montgomerie or Nick Faldo?

[downendcity]

My main concern is that S O'D gets fed up with trying to explain the same things, to the same sections of our supporters, week-in week-out, and decides enough is enough. He has tried to set out his intentions, and the parameters that he is working within, as clearly as he can, and still some people don't get it. What is the matter with you people?

Interesting one this.

I think that with Bristol City , SOD has a proper project and he strikes me as a project sort of guy.

When we were kids, my brother and I used to build Airfix kits. Sixpence from Terrett and Taylor in Staple Hill and we'd hardly get in the house than the packet was ripped open and the glue was opened and pieces snapped from the spurs and glued together. Cursory glances at the plans hindered progress, and the model spitfire or whatever was built in next to no time ready for painting - the best bit. Only then did you discover that the glue was on the inside of the cockpit, there were usually a few odd bits and pieces left over and that you had forgotten to paint the inside of the cockpit. Invariably a wing or undercarriage would fall of in next to no time.

SOD would be the guy building HMS Victory. He would have the plans on the desk, his tools neatly laid out, and all the pieces checked and in order for use. He would then work methodically through the construction process as laid out in the plans , taking time to cut each piece off and file the rough edges. He would paint all the miniscule pieces before gluing them in place. He wouldn't get bored or fed up after a few hours ( as we used to do) because he would probably have worked out how many hours it would take to make and he would know that doing things in the right order and taking the right amount of time would give the best results. I bet his Airfix models didn't have bits falling off and smudge marks on the cockpit glass!

He has the backing from the board to undertake a long term plan, that involves rebuilding the club from top to bottom. How many managers are given such a chance? Ferguson was given such a chance at Man U but he says that he doesn't believe a manager would be given the same time to do that these days. If so, and BCFC are prepared to give SOD the time to do this, then he knows he is a lucky man and will never get a chance like it again. While we might not be Man U we are not a Micky Mouse club either and have real potential if we can get it right, and Swansea show what is possible.

All of this being the case, why would he get fed up and walk away when he has only just started. He's at the boring stage of gluing the keel together and knows there is plenty still to do before he gets to the fun bits like masts, rigging and sails. and painting the guns. I reckon he will see it though and tolerate the sceptical fans and having to explain things again if he has to and until results start to speak for themselves.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Interesting one this.

I think that with Bristol City , SOD has a proper project and he strikes me as a project sort of guy.

When we were kids, my brother and I used to build Airfix kits. Sixpence from Terrett and Taylor in Staple Hill and we'd hardly get in the house than the packet was ripped open and the glue was opened and pieces snapped from the spurs and glued together. Cursory glances at the plans hindered progress, and the model spitfire or whatever was built in next to no time ready for painting - the best bit. Only then did you discover that the glue was on the inside of the cockpit, there were usually a few odd bits and pieces left over and that you had forgotten to paint the inside of the cockpit. Invariably a wing or undercarriage would fall of in next to no time.

SOD would be the guy building HMS Victory. He would have the plans on the desk, his tools neatly laid out, and all the pieces checked and in order for use. He would then work methodically through the construction process as laid out in the plans , taking time to cut each piece off and file the rough edges. He would paint all the miniscule pieces before gluing them in place. He wouldn't get bored or fed up after a few hours ( as we used to do) because he would probably have worked out how many hours it would take to make and he would know that doing things in the right order and taking the right amount of time would give the best results. I bet his Airfix models didn't have bits falling off and smudge marks on the cockpit glass!

He has the backing from the board to undertake a long term plan, that involves rebuilding the club from top to bottom. How many managers are given such a chance? Ferguson was given such a chance at Man U but he says that he doesn't believe a manager would be given the same time to do that these days. If so, and BCFC are prepared to give SOD the time to do this, then he knows he is a lucky man and will never get a chance like it again. While we might not be Man U we are not a Micky Mouse club either and have real potential if we can get it right, and Swansea show what is possible.

All of this being the case, why would he get fed up and walk away when he has only just started. He's at the boring stage of gluing the keel together and knows there is plenty still to do before he gets to the fun bits like masts, rigging and sails. and painting the guns. I reckon he will see it though and tolerate the sceptical fans and having to explain things again if he has to and until results start to speak for themselves.

Jesus i'm speechless, other than to say I know what i'm getting SOD for christmas now.

[glynriley]

Interesting one this.

I think that with Bristol City , SOD has a proper project and he strikes me as a project sort of guy.

When we were kids, my brother and I used to build Airfix kits. Sixpence from Terrett and Taylor in Staple Hill and we'd hardly get in the house than the packet was ripped open and the glue was opened and pieces snapped from the spurs and glued together. Cursory glances at the plans hindered progress, and the model spitfire or whatever was built in next to no time ready for painting - the best bit. Only then did you discover that the glue was on the inside of the cockpit, there were usually a few odd bits and pieces left over and that you had forgotten to paint the inside of the cockpit. Invariably a wing or undercarriage would fall of in next to no time.

SOD would be the guy building HMS Victory. He would have the plans on the desk, his tools neatly laid out, and all the pieces checked and in order for use. He would then work methodically through the construction process as laid out in the plans , taking time to cut each piece off and file the rough edges. He would paint all the miniscule pieces before gluing them in place. He wouldn't get bored or fed up after a few hours ( as we used to do) because he would probably have worked out how many hours it would take to make and he would know that doing things in the right order and taking the right amount of time would give the best results. I bet his Airfix models didn't have bits falling off and smudge marks on the cockpit glass!

He has the backing from the board to undertake a long term plan, that involves rebuilding the club from top to bottom. How many managers are given such a chance? Ferguson was given such a chance at Man U but he says that he doesn't believe a manager would be given the same time to do that these days. If so, and BCFC are prepared to give SOD the time to do this, then he knows he is a lucky man and will never get a chance like it again. While we might not be Man U we are not a Micky Mouse club either and have real potential if we can get it right, and Swansea show what is possible.

All of this being the case, why would he get fed up and walk away when he has only just started. He's at the boring stage of gluing the keel together and knows there is plenty still to do before he gets to the fun bits like masts, rigging and sails. and painting the guns. I reckon he will see it though and tolerate the sceptical fans and having to explain things again if he has to and until results start to speak for themselves.

Now we know why he's such a boring bastard.*

*This is a joke BTW.

[Atticus]

I'd say far too many people take being disagreed with as some sort of victimisation. If your opinion is in the minority, it will be disagreed with. If you can't reason it out, more so. There's no happy clappy army, it's just that generally negative posts will attract fans defending the club particularly if they aren't constructive.

This is the thing though.

Its not just disagreeing with somebody who has a criticism, its slating the poster for having a differing opinion, and assuming the poster/s in question expect us to be top of the league and wanting SOD sacked. Isnt the case with most.

This is coming from many posters on here.

EMB is bang on right. Its irritating me reading the contempt some people are having of others with differing opinions.

[Gazred]

Cracking analogy. So when can we expect a Victory?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

"Cracking analogy Grommett" . So when can we expect a Victory?

i've amended it for you.

and the answer is only if the glue or paint has dried and assuming the main mast dosen't fall down if we have a fair wind.......................

[downendcity]

Cracking analogy. So when can we expect a Victory?

You saw what I did there??

I've rendered EMB speechless - a long term project - so my work here is done!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

You saw what I did there??

I've rendered EMB speechless, so my work here is done!

Thanks for that Wallace.

[Gazred]

i've amended it for you.

and the answer is only if the glue or paint has dried and assuming the main mast dosen't fall down if we have a fair wind.......................

And when everything is ship shape and Bristol fashion of course!

[Gazred]

So essentially then, SOD, his entire back room team and players signed are on a hiding to nothing as far as you are concerned, as anyone else could be doing the job? If every City supporter had your attitude no manager in his right mind would come here.

Hmmm id love to see a Tony Pulis side spraying the ball about in a possesion based style.

[Aizoon]

So there are actually fans who are quite willing to see us relegated possibly winning very few games, playing the likes of Morecambe, Accrington Stanley and Rochdale because apparently this is a 'long term project'. Just bizarre.

Straw man.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Straw man.

He has a point in response to that particular post, relegation was not an option last season, it was a consequence and it is certainly not an option this season.

[Nibor]

This is the thing though.

Its not just disagreeing with somebody who has a criticism, its slating the poster for having a differing opinion, and assuming the poster/s in question expect us to be top of the league and wanting SOD sacked. Isnt the case with most.

This is coming from many posters on here.

EMB is bang on right. Its irritating me reading the contempt some people are having of others with differing opinions.

I haven't seen much slating to be honest. Maybe I've missed it.

There's a difference between "you're a cock if you think that" and "how on earth does that make sense? what about x y z?".

I seem to see people complaining about the latter as though it was the former.

[Nibor]

So essentially then, SOD, his entire back room team and players signed are on a hiding to nothing as far as you are concerned, as anyone else could be doing the job? If every City supporter had your attitude no manager in his right mind would come here.

Hmmm id love to see a Tony Pulis side spraying the ball about in a possesion based style.

The thing is, it's not even relevant whether anybody else could do the job, the experience we have of recent managers is that they don't. Acknowledging that the job needs doing, why would we shortsightedly get rid of a manager who is doing it? Very few managers take a long term view, we have one who does, and it is absolutely what we need. Unfortunately some can't get past the short term results despite the obvious problems we've had with that approach. I find it best to ignore the silly straw man arguments, nobody has claimed the results are good at the moment.