You Cannot Have Both.

[Red-Robbo]

All good points of course but I just feel with the state it seems to be in and has been for yonks that even bringing in a new manager may give 6 weeks of success (just like the start of SO'Ds reign) and then just fall away again... again it may prove a success of course in the long run but I cant see the board getting rid unless it becomes desperate around new year.

 

Its a tough one I suppose well for me because I do like SO'D, he's very *****ly, very dour of course but I like his interviews and his notes as he is brutally honest. I did say a while ago keep him as long as it takes to sort this club out, there have been flashes of improvements at times and blooding the youngsters more plus he has bought well.

 

I'll stick to my guns and if I am wrong then I'll be the first one to admit it

 

I worry that by New Year it will be like the 81st minute substitution - too late. And we might have a chance to get someone decent now. In 10 weeks, who's going to fancy inheriting that poison chalice?!

 

My major disappointment with SOD was when he came here I thought we were going to get some on-field organisation. That was sold to us as his strong point. Even last season, I'd argue that we weren't as awful as our eventual position suggested, just never gelled together as a team and as confidence evapourated, players performed well below what they were capable of.

 

Yet now, it seems to me, SOD sends out a decent team and asks them to do the impossible. And once again, performances are dipping because players aren't being hyped up to do their best. This "excellent coach" seems to not be able to stop decent professionals from making basic mistakes, over and over.

 

This season, if we won points for possession, we'd be top of the league, and it is super to see us hold onto the ball for longer than McInnes's hapless Scottish imports could. However in terms of goal threat, we have only two options - a calamitous mistake by the oppo defence or JET coming to life and creating a bit of brilliance. We can't create a threatening move to save our lives. And when we offer no threat, opponents will push forward more and sooner or later we'll be caught on a break.

 

I do fear the board will not grasp the nettle on this one. And going down to L2 will have far graver consequences than our last relegation.

[Kingswood Robin]

Not sure anyone would be happy to hear that from their prospective employers.

 

"Hi, we'd like you to come in and magically change a huge downward trend in our fortunes over the past 4 or 5 years, first and foremost keeping us in the league, ideally getting us even higher than that. If you do manage that, and do a really good job, we'll get rid of you anyway, and if you don't manage that, we'll get rid of you too. We may even get rid of you earlier than the end of the season if it doesn't look like we're going to stay up, because the only reason we've turned to you is to keep us up, nothing more, so we'll have to turn to someone else again to work even more magic in even less time, and then get rid of him too."

 

I know I wouldn't take that job, anyway.

 

It's happened many times in football. The temporary nature of it suites some people, it depends on their circumstances. John Ward did it at Rovers (only temporary to start with), Warnock worked at Torquay. Redknapp did some work at Bournemouth recently. It's quite common in football,

[RedYoshi]

It's happened many times in football. The temporary nature of it suites some people, it depends on their circumstances. John Ward did it at Rovers (only temporary to start with), Warnock worked at Torquay. Redknapp did some work at Bournemouth recently. It's quite common in football,

 

I suppose the difference to me would be suggesting that whatever they did, they'd be gone at the end of the season, compared to just saying "we'll see how it goes".

 

Plus, Redknapp wasn't brought in as a "temporary manager" at Bournemouth - it was purely an advisory role, whilst they had an existing manager at the helm - and Warnock also hooked up with Torquay to help another manager who subsequently resigned, thus leaving him in charge for the remainder of the season.

 

Very different circumstances, I'd say. Redknapp, for instance, was out of a job and happy to voluntarily help a team with which he had previous connections, merely keeping him busy until he got a full offer (which he subsequently did 2/3 months later).

 

The Ward example just goes to show that, I imagine, it's extremely difficult to say "ok, thanks, but now you've got to leave" if it turns out to be a success.

 

In an ideal world, sure, it could be a brilliant suggestion - I'm just not sure it's hugely workable in the circumstances. Possibly some sort of "consultant" role, along the lines of the Redknapp/Warnock positions already discussed, could have potential, but I doubt it would be realistically considered by the club.. Have seen it suggested elsewhere though, and might be worth thinking about, but who knows?

[Aizoon]

I worry that by New Year it will be like the 81st minute substitution - too late. And we might have a chance to get someone decent now. In 10 weeks, who's going to fancy inheriting that poison chalice?!

My major disappointment with SOD was when he came here I thought we were going to get some on-field organisation. That was sold to us as his strong point. Even last season, I'd argue that we weren't as awful as our eventual position suggested, just never gelled together as a team and as confidence evapourated, players performed well below what they were capable of.

Yet now, it seems to me, SOD sends out a decent team and asks them to do the impossible. And once again, performances are dipping because players aren't being hyped up to do their best. This "excellent coach" seems to not be able to stop decent professionals from making basic mistakes, over and over.

This season, if we won points for possession, we'd be top of the league, and it is super to see us hold onto the ball for longer than McInnes's hapless Scottish imports could. However in terms of goal threat, we have only two options - a calamitous mistake by the oppo defence or JET coming to life and creating a bit of brilliance. We can't create a threatening move to save our lives. And when we offer no threat, opponents will push forward more and sooner or later we'll be caught on a break.

I do fear the board will not grasp the nettle on this one. And going down to L2 will have far graver consequences than our last relegation.

I'm not accustomed to agreeing with you but that is a brutally honest analysis of where we are - so what do we do next?

[Red-Robbo]

I'm not accustomed to agreeing with you but that is a brutally honest analysis of where we are - so what do we do next?

 

We can only sound out the options of who might come here. Money should not be a consideration, as the financial implications of going down would make paying-off SOD and getting someone else in, look like chicken-feed.

 

To people saying - but who is out there? I'd say 90+ unemployed managers + several in work who might be tempted if the price is right. And that's before we consider the much riskier option of foreign managers or ex-pros with coaching qualifications & great contacts looking for their first hot seat.

 

I am not expressing a preference, as who we get depends on who is interested. I can't know that. None of us can.

 

All I'd say is, if you're in a car that is heading for the crash bariers, you might as well try to pull out of the swerve. You might hit the barriers over the other side, but at least there is a chance you might stay on the road.

 

A new manager could give us a chance. Our present incumbent gives us no likelihood of staying up IMO. Just too stubborn to change tack.

 

A new guy on a short-term contract, as others have suggested, might not be a bad thing, if we could swing it.

[exiledinwatford]

When we lost 5-4 at Northampton I was really encouraged. At last a manager who goes out to win games rather than the previous lot who went out not to lose them. Now it seems that after two games with Baldock up on his own with a single shot on target in 180 mins that Sod has lost his nerve and is out to grind out results.

History shows us that these tactics don't work and just alienate the fans. If the current crop of players are given some freedom to attack we might just win a game. Even if we don't and keep losing at least we'll keep losing with some flair and provide some real entertainment. You never know, the players might just become better at it and start regaining some confidence.

[Major Isewater]

[dezgimed]

Another angry post from Redeye. Typical Bristolian.

[phantom]

Your answer is deep within this http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/158451-interesting-article/

[Kid in the Riot]

We can have both the five pillars and get some one in should SOD who be replaced who will maintain that vision. Other teams with visions manage it, so can we. Simples

 

Relegation to l2 will pretty much 'kill us' at this juncture as the rebuild will have been for nothing and the five pillars will be squeezed even more with less income, tighter SCMP rules and player churn again. It simply must not be an option, irrespective

 

Sorry, how will relegation to L2 "kill us"?

 

It hasn't killed Pompey and they make our club look like the pinnacle of being "well run". Swansea, Cardiff, Bradford - has it killed them?

 

L2 of course shouldn't be a voluntary option, but it is an option and certainly wouldn't kill us.

[AshtonGreat]

There are some City fans who want the transition and the new policy of youth - who also want to oust SO'D and install a short-term manager. How short-sighted is this?

You can't have both.

For the new chapter of BCFC and the transition to work the club has to stay true to it's mission statement - even if this involves relegation to league two.

To bring in another short-term 'sticking plaster' manager does not guarantee the club are saved from the drop - but it will guarantee the club goes backwards in ditching it's vision for the sake of blind panic and lack of belief in that vision.

SO'D was right to react the way he did during his interview after the Brentford game. What a moronic question from the interviewer after SO'D had explained how the team had performed and what changes had been implemented. Obviously this media lightweight was more interested in a low brow cage rattle than actually listening to SO'D.

 

Sorry, but if you honestly think it's acceptable to drop to League Two as part of some mythical 'transition', I would question your sanity

[Portland Bill]

Sorry, but if you honestly think it's acceptable to drop to League Two as part of some mythical 'transition', I would question your sanity

It's not mythical, it is actually happening at the moment.

[spudski]

We can have both the five pillars and get some one in should SOD who be replaced who will maintain that vision. Other teams with visions manage it, so can we. Simples

 

Relegation to l2 will pretty much 'kill us' at this juncture as the rebuild will have been for nothing and the five pillars will be squeezed even more with less income, tighter SCMP rules and player churn again. It simply must not be an option, irrespective

Of course this is true... even SoD has said that another manager can come in and do a job... all he would want is for the club to stick to their guns and keep implementing the same system...whoever is in charge.

 

I'd love to see fans reactions though if another manager came in and we still ended up going down... who would they blame then?

 

It's not the managers that are a problem at this club but the board and owner and the mistakes they've kep't making.

[AshtonGreat]

It's not mythical, it is actually happening at the moment.

 

And you think slipping into the basement league would be part of that transition? I prefer to call it incompetence

[Tom Fleuriot]

The transition excuse is just being used to hide the fact that we have a poor team, and a manager who seems incapable of turning it around. Very few sides transition by way of not winning in 21 games. How long exactly do we let this go on?

The closest comparison I can think of in recent years is Aston Villa last season.  They had made a decision to focus on a very young (i.e. lack of games / playing together as a team, before RMLF gives me grief) group of players and were looking to implement a new style of play after three managers in as many years.  They had also got worse and worse over the previous few seasons (albeit without being relegated).  Their well-off chairman had seriously slashed the funding over the previous couple of years.

 

They didn't do anywhere as badly as us after 12 games (they had 9 points - 3 more, having beaten Sunderland in the throes of their own downfall).  They then did really poorly for pretty much all season and then it started to come together only right at the end.

 

I think the lesson from that is:

 - transition really DOES take a season; and

 - unless we sign Benteke, we may well get relegated.

[Major Isewater]

[Monkeh]

Of course this is true... even SoD has said that another manager can come in and do a job... all he would want is for the club to stick to their guns and keep implementing the same system...whoever is in charge.

I'd love to see fans reactions though if another manager came in and we still ended up going down... who would they blame then?

It's not the managers that are a problem at this club but the board and owner and the mistakes they've kep't making.

Ahh so it's the board that tells sod to play 1 up front at home and to keep pumping 40 yard balls to baldock to win in the air against a defender a foot tailer then him.......thanks for clearing that up

[cider_dog]

Are you pissed again,RE?

I'd rather not "transition" into L2 and crowds of 6,000.

To imply that only Sean O'Driscoll could keep up the work the club is doing with young players is to understand nothing about football.

A touch condescending.

 

I think the OP makes a very valid point.

 

It is the fact that we have failed to win (or create chances) that will decide the fate of SOD NOT his philosophy or experience.

 

I will leave the rest to your superior understanding of football.

[spudski]

Ahh so it's the board that tells sod to play 1 up front at home and to keep pumping 40 yard balls to baldock to win in the air against a defender a foot tailer then him.......thanks for clearing that up

Think about it mate... people have complained about the tactics of every manager we've had when we've been struggling.

 

We all think we know better than the managers... but we don't.

 

If it was that simple... they'd be doing it.

 

Do you know football better than GJ, Millen, Tinnion, Coppell, Del, SoD... yet you and me and everyone else will complain on here about their failing tactics... like we know better.

 

All those managers have eventually failed or are failing here... are they all wrong?

 

You could bring in any top manager into this Club right now and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

 

The restrictions, plan of action, and knock on effect of previous mistakes are all effecting what is happening now.

 

We just need to ride out this season and see what happens.

 

What would be your answer if we brought in another manager and we still went down... who would you blame then?

[spudski]

That's the risk you take when appointing another manager/head coach though Spudski, the "unknown, unknown" as it were. Unless we go on a near play off form (sorry Red Yoshi )  just to get to the  50pts stage then, we are sunk irrespective. So'D could possibly turn it around and get us playing 'his way' and with added passion belief etc and getting the wins, ironing out tactical deficiencies, but there is no evidence of that occurring based on what's occurred thus. A new man could come in and actually work on the deficencies, (what SO'D should have done last season, seeing as we were knackered either way) and sort out basic tactical and defensive issues. So that we hit the ground running should we go down again. We could slump again, we wont know unless it's tried however. 

 

It's the head coach's issue that players arent progressing, tactical deficiencies arent addressed and basic things are sorted out. That has naff all to do with the board and whatever people think of them!

 

 

Wont give you any grief re Villa, indeed was championing them last season over on Ziderheads when many said it wouldnt work. Much like I do here, I believe in our youth, and the ability of youth players. Lambert has a grounding of  learning some of his coaching whilst  at Dortmund iirc, where the youth is absolutely paramount to their resurgence as a major player.

Villa got their first win after 4 vs Swansea, and though they really struggled over Xmas they generally managed to get things done to stay up best runs coming in November before the 'slump' and  Feb/March and have a basis to push on this season.

 

We havent got that base yet and need very good above average form just to survive from now on in

The same could be said about every manager we've had since GJ... and so it goes on and on and on... it's a never ending spiral down. Bring in another manager and we go down still... who are you going to blame then? We keep changing managers... and yet we go backwards regardless... whoever is in position. The constant is... we keep sacking managers and failing.

We either keep with that constant or change it.

[Rich_s]

The problem is in the fact that if the club takes the hit and gets relegated to Div 2 the club may never recover. For instance, the Gas do not look like recovering from 'transitioning' in Div 2. On the contrary, the Gas look set for relegation to the Conference. As for the BBC reporter, a typical BBC moron as per his mates on the National News that are all for kicking off wars in Syria and the rest of the Middle East and getting our military involved.

Maybe that's part of the master plan. In the Monopoly board of Bristol sport Mr Lansdown holds a good deal of the pieces and a good wedge of cash. Precursor to a Bristol United?

Yes, it's probably a ridiculous notion.

[Monkeh]

Think about it mate... people have complained about the tactics of every manager we've had when we've been struggling.

We all think we know better than the managers... but we don't.

If it was that simple... they'd be doing it.

Do you know football better than GJ, Millen, Tinnion, Coppell, Del, SoD... yet you and me and everyone else will complain on here about their failing tactics... like we know better.

All those managers have eventually failed or are failing here... are they all wrong?

You could bring in any top manager into this Club right now and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

The restrictions, plan of action, and knock on effect of previous mistakes are all effecting what is happening now.

We just need to ride out this season and see what happens.

What would be your answer if we brought in another manager and we still went down... who would you blame then?

No I may not but I do know hen a tactic isn't working, somthing Gary Johnson could often see too, sod is meant to be an astute tactics iin he isn't he is stubborn,

Someone astute could see that 1 up front stopped working early in the second half, uwe did that's when brentford got on too, they reacted we didn't until it was far too late, and that's been the story of this season,

21 games isn't the board it's the head coach, even Millen who I thought was a poor manager would of at least picked us up 2 wins in that period,

The board have implanted the 5 pillers and are correct to do so, no wherefore it say sod is one of these he should be removed and another manager brought in that will take the 5 pillers on board

The fans are turning against him the players aren't playing for him

[cider_dog]

[spudski]

 

 

Mate...you've lost all credibility with me...sorry.

But if it were that simple...we'd all be having a go at it...it's that well paid...it's worth the gamble.

To think having life coaching experience in other businesses would make us good football managers is the most moronic thing I've ever heard.

Sorry...but we are going to have a agree to disagree again... there is no point talking as we see things from totally different perspectives.

Your odd posts now make sense... if you actually believe it is as simple as you make out.

No disrespect fella... but to simplify it in the way you have is beyond reasonable debate...

[spudski]

So your fear is fear of change, because you are certain that SO'D is the man. 

 

The reason for spirals are myriad and complex, there isnt really any one 'person' to blame, and rather than spending all the time focusing on the negatives, and navel gazing the crux of the thing should making positives and taking control rather than let 'fate' or whatever other Football fallacy make it's way.

 

You've mentioned a bunch of negatives above and seem as many are to be stuck in a 'victim' thing which is where we have apparently been since the playoffs. Time to grab the bull by the horns and control our own destiny, not controlled by the 'dark arts'  do things our way, and make sure that everyone knows what they are doing. If SO'D isnt capable of that and the evidence points towards it then some one else, will. If we go down whilst beginning to achieve that, like we should have done last season then there wouldnt have been all of this crud at the start of the season.

Decisive, simple, straighforward, achievable is what we need to be doing, and bringing in opther elements when they are ready to be implemented.. We are doing nothing of the sort and overcomplicating things because we are caught in our own hysteria

It's not fear of change...in fact the opposite.

Change the constant.... the constant has been that we have continually sacked managers and failed.

 

Make that change... and change the constant.

 

Change would be giving a manager a season or two.

[Red-Robbo]

It's not fear of change...in fact the opposite.

Change the constant.... the constant has been that we have continually sacked managers and failed.

Make that change... and change the constant.

Change would be giving a manager a season or two.

I wanted that too. But I naively expected SOD might win one or two games.

I expected nothing much from this season. I expected a 'transition' to playing in this league, with a substantially new team.

But I do expect some forward motion - some proof we're taking steps along the path to be an effective unit.

But we are going backwards; we are less creative and playing worse than when the season started.

And losing to some terrible sides!

[Monkeh]

You've heard of Moneyball, right? You know taking a completely different approach to what's been done before because the conceit is flawed and too subjective, the' dark arts' as SL called them. There needs to be a different way of thinking and applicating it rather than just following everyone else, because it's 'football'.

The innovators of Football such as Herbert Chapman, come in and rip up the rule book, or the accepted way. of doing things of the majority because they step away and see things differently.

You dont believe in transferable skills then? Fair enough, clearly the 16 year old AVB shouldnt have debated football with Sir Bobby Robson, having never played pro and certainly shouldnt have gone on to be an observer, then a scout then manager. You dont need to be in football, to understand football.

Getting in is difficult because it such a closed shop and introspective especially over here where it's so hierarichal. The standard of coaching around the world inc The US and other such 'lesser' footballing nations is much better than here, but we (collectively) will rarely take the risk because it doesnt fit in with what we are told to think about footy!

Absolutely spot on, you don't have to be an ex pro to become a top coach,

[Aizoon]

Is brasseye back? I thought he was banned?

[Kid in the Riot]

[Aizoon]

You know, it would improve the level of comments here if Football Manager and FIFA 14 were to be made much more difficult.