Nelson Mandela

[Aizoon]

And I'm referring to all the other civilian deaths and casualties at the hands of the group he founded. Feel free to ignore that fact if it doesnt suit YOUR agenda.

 

And what, precisely, is your agenda? Anything to do with the AWB, perhaps?

[dezgimed]

And what, precisely, is your agenda? Anything to do with the AWB, perhaps?

 

I don't have one.

 

I don't have any political allegiance. I like to look at both sides of most things. In this case, I don't think you can say that he was 100% a Saint and a hero, I don't think his actions can be disputed.

 

[Oops]

Us Brits do love a bit of mawkish third hand sentimentality. Tell people someone's a hero often enough and they'll eventually believe it. I'd love to know how much of the moral indignation directed at negative posts on this thread are a result of recent Wikipedia sessions, as opposed to genuine empathy with South Africa's turbulent past.

The facts of Mandela's terrorist leanings are still facts, even if some try to interpret them otherwise (hilariously)

Back to sticking fingers in ears and lalalalala-ing when anyone offers a different opinion all you Nelson fans!

[dezgimed]

Us Brits do love a bit of mawkish third hand sentimentality. Tell people someone's a hero often enough and they'll eventually believe it. I'd love to know how much of the moral indignation directed at negative posts on this thread are a result of recent Wikipedia sessions, as opposed to genuine empathy with South Africa's turbulent past.

The facts of Mandela's terrorist leanings are still facts, even if some try to interpret them otherwise (hilariously)

Back to sticking fingers in ears and lalalalala-ing when anyone offers a different opinion all you Nelson fans!

 

[Kingswood Robin]

Time to give it a rest I think, especially the BBC. Good (and bad) he may have been, but plenty of good men and women have died since last Thursday and the world is still turning. Time to move on.

[IdliketoRogerMoore]

Thorough the was good in shawshank redemption, one of my favorite films!

[NOTR]

What about the dyslexic south African who left a bunch of flowers outside a Nissan main dealer.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

And what, precisely, is your agenda? Anything to do with the AWB, perhaps?

 

Average White Band, loved them back in the day, what they got to do with Mandela? ah I get it South Africa is left to pick up the pieces, nice one.

 

Too much on BBC now, I understand that somebody on the BBC radio 4 today programme tried to liken him to Jesus Christ.

 

 

[Jordan Tansley]

I don't have one.

I don't have any political allegiance. I like to look at both sides of most things. In this case, I don't think you can say that he was 100% a Saint and a hero, I don't think his actions can be disputed.

His militancy cannot be disputed, no. However, much of history is about the outcome of people's actions more than the actions themselves.

People will look at how Mandela unified a nation that had been racist from top to bottom for generations and the means to which this was achieved are not given as much credence. I don't know that that is necessarily a bad thing. You can easily compare his militancy to that of the women's movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. At the end of the day they achieved equality for all and the means by which that was achieved is not relevant.

You find that most militant action comes after a long period of non violent attempts to change the world, when that is met with hostile oppression the only option is to 'fight back'

I think it's important to ensure that we understand the justification for violence before dismissing it as a means of protest. Revolution is a necessity in a world where politics and power often drift into the realms of authoritarianism and prejudiced beliefs dominating another people. Fighting back is often the last and only resort and without it oppressive regimes like apartheid, nazism, communism(of the modern European kind as opposed to the ideological Marxist writings) etc would have been able to stand strong for longer.

[TRUEBRIT66]

His militancy cannot be disputed, no. However, much of history is about the outcome of people's actions more than the actions themselves.

People will look at how Mandela unified a nation that had been racist from top to bottom for generations and the means to which this was achieved are not given as much credence. I don't know that that is necessarily a bad thing. You can easily compare his militancy to that of the women's movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. At the end of the day they achieved equality for all and the means by which that was achieved is not relevant.

You find that most militant action comes after a long period of non violent attempts to change the world, when that is met with hostile oppression the only option is to 'fight back'

I think it's important to ensure that we understand the justification for violence before dismissing it as a means of protest. Revolution is a necessity in a world where politics and power often drift into the realms of authoritarianism and prejudiced beliefs dominating another people. Fighting back is often the last and only resort and without it oppressive regimes like apartheid, nazism, communism(of the modern European kind as opposed to the ideological Marxist writings) etc would have been able to stand strong for longer.

At what stage do you define justification and who makes that choice ?

Unfortunately in the world we live in the most awful acts of violence get noticed the most, I guess only the future decides that     

[Portland Bill]

Us Brits do love a bit of mawkish third hand sentimentality. Tell people someone's a hero often enough and they'll eventually believe it. I'd love to know how much of the moral indignation directed at negative posts on this thread are a result of recent Wikipedia sessions, as opposed to genuine empathy with South Africa's turbulent past.

The facts of Mandela's terrorist leanings are still facts, even if some try to interpret them otherwise (hilariously)

Back to sticking fingers in ears and lalalalala-ing when anyone offers a different opinion all you Nelson fans!

The only fact that really counts, is that 40 million people were being ruled by a system that was evil and treated them as sub human.

Anyone who took up arms in that situation ( after exhausting peaceful means) is a hero in mine and billions of other peoples eyes.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

The only fact that really counts, is that 40 million people were being ruled by a system that was evil and treated them as sub human.

Anyone who took up arms in that situation ( after exhausting peaceful means) is a hero in mine and billions of other peoples eyes.

 

of course you are completely right Bill, but sadly every right thinking person knew exactly how it would turn out and the rest is history and that is the saddest part of this story and it will get worse, because there is nobody of his standing to speak out against what is happening.

 

 

[The Batman]

Can't remember Hitler being incarcerated while the Jews were systematically exterminated.  Neither was Hitler killing Jews because they were the majority oppressors killing innocent Germans and denying them any rights.

 

If you are going to make comparisons can we compare apples with apples, oranges with oranges etc, rather than apples and computers - as you have done?

 

I'm afraid none of your comparisons and analogies make any sense whatsoever.  Even the IRA example doesn't bear scrutiny.  

 

Must do better I'm afraid.

 

I wasn't doing it to compare regimes or their position within their society at the time

 

I was asked where Mandela was when the Church Street bombing went off. As we all know, he was in prison, and as I said, he admitted in his book that he orchestrated and "signed off" the bombing from his jail cell. I read your question to me as a way of you saying "well, he was in prison so it wasn't him" (or am i way off the mark?)

 

The comparison with Hitler is because having studied European History my whole academic life, I cannot find a single piece of evidence that suggests that Hitler actually killed a Jew (or anyone for that matter) himself, he arranged for his minions to do his bidding. In comparison to Mandela, was not him that set off the bomb (s), but he planned it. That means he has blood on his hands, innocent people's blood and their death's on his conscience. 

 

So if you are saying that because Mandela was in prison at the time, he cannot accept the responsibility of the deaths of those that day, then by the logic imposed, nor can Hitler for killing the jews, because it was not him directly.

 

We can look at others if you so wish.......

 

anyway back to topic.....

 

The IRA comparison??? well considering it was them who funded, helped plan and equip the ANC / MK in these times, i'm pretty sure you can. I'm just wondering if you're refusing to acknowledge the allegiance and great friendship they had or just not aware that it existed?????. If that happened in Church Street Belfast, or Church Street Manchester, would you have been able to spot the difference?? Big bomb goes off killing innocent people in a public space. That to me deserves no praise at all, regardless of who set it off. 

 

I've got a very graphic photo of a small child that died in the Church street bombing attack. head imploded, legs gone, intestines out the waist, now i'm not putting it on here for obvious reasons, but according to some of you lot, that child died for "the greater good" - go and tell that child's parents that the kid deserved to die. Better yet, tell me on here. Tell me that a small child's death in a bombing planned by Mandela was justified. 

 

necklacing...... It was not just their enemies, if any black person in South Africa refused to take part in the strikes proclaimed by the ANC, they were accused of being collaborators with the regime and they were given the death sentence by this method of torture. as mrs mandela said "with tyres and matches we will liberate this country" - once again, it's too graphic to show on here, do your own research.

 

I'm sorry, but i cannot accept him being whiter than white (excuse the racial pun) like some of you on here. That's just an honest opinion of someone who thinks that killing innocent people by bombing public spaces and torturing people who say "no" by setting them on fire while tied within tyres does not deserve the praise he gets. 

[Eco]

Us Brits do love a bit of mawkish third hand sentimentality. Tell people someone's a hero often enough and they'll eventually believe it. I'd love to know how much of the moral indignation directed at negative posts on this thread are a result of recent Wikipedia sessions, as opposed to genuine empathy with South Africa's turbulent past.

The facts of Mandela's terrorist leanings are still facts, even if some try to interpret them otherwise (hilariously)

Back to sticking fingers in ears and lalalalala-ing when anyone offers a different opinion all you Nelson fans!

I think it's more that the negative posts aren't based on facts. Seeing as you obviously have a full knowledge of the 60's -80's in SA can you confirm if the 'terrorist leanings' that Mandela had resulted in any deaths ? I appreciate he was a founding member of the NK but have yet to uncover whether he was personally responsible which is what the Dez's of this thread have mentioned, although I see Dez has now slightly softened his stance towards NM.

[Kid in the Riot]

I'm sorry, but i cannot accept him being whiter than white (excuse the racial pun) like some of you on here. That's just an honest opinion of someone who thinks that killing innocent people by bombing public spaces and torturing people who say "no" by setting them on fire while tied within tyres does not deserve the praise he gets. 

 

I don't think anyone is saying he is whiter than white and no one is saying kids deserved to die or that it was justified?? Studying history is about interpreting the facts and coming to a balanced conclusion. Education seems to have failed you if you can't recognise the seismic impact Mandela had on millions of lives in SA.

 

Maybe now you've given us the "Nelson Mandela: Tyrant" chapter of your thesis, you could give us your overall conclusion on the man??

[glynriley]

As i said, his intentions were good but his actions were not. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. Imagine if Lee Rigby's squadron had opened fire on the mosque where his killers prayed, would you say their actions were justified? If the germans did invade us, i think any resistance would have been directly at them and not on innocent civilians. So Hitler takes command of Buck House and Downing Street, I'll tell you what i'll do, i'll go blow up a public space where innocent people are walking around, that'll show them.

 

In Mandela's trial, he said he would be willing to die for his cause, and that i commend him for. But when it comes to bombing innocent people, I simply cannot bring myself to agree. He should have gone down the Malcolm X & Dr Martin Luther King or Gandhi route of preaching non-violence to achieve their aim. Killing innocent people makes him as bad as the oppressors he was trying to overthrow in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

well done Eco & cheese, by the precedent set by the pair of you, Hitler is now no longer responsible for the death of 6 million Jews. He didn't drive the trains to the death camps, he didn't pull the trigger, he didn't set the explosions, he didn't start the fires, he was in the government offices and hideaway retreats when these acts were going on. In Mandela's autobiography, he admitted that he ordered and "signed off" the church street bombing and his followers and fellow ANC / MK members carried out the attacks.

 

 

 

 

"They were always burning , since the worlds been turning"

[Eco]

I wasn't doing it to compare regimes or their position within their society at the time

 

I was asked where Mandela was when the Church Street bombing went off. As we all know, he was in prison, and as I said, he admitted in his book that he orchestrated and "signed off" the bombing from his jail cell. I read your question to me as a way of you saying "well, he was in prison so it wasn't him" (or am i way off the mark?)

 

The comparison with Hitler is because having studied European History my whole academic life, I cannot find a single piece of evidence that suggests that Hitler actually killed a Jew (or anyone for that matter) himself, he arranged for his minions to do his bidding. In comparison to Mandela, was not him that set off the bomb (s), but he planned it. That means he has blood on his hands, innocent people's blood and their death's on his conscience. 

 

So if you are saying that because Mandela was in prison at the time, he cannot accept the responsibility of the deaths of those that day, then by the logic imposed, nor can Hitler for killing the jews, because it was not him directly.

 

We can look at others if you so wish.......

 

anyway back to topic.....

 

The IRA comparison??? well considering it was them who funded, helped plan and equip the ANC / MK in these times, i'm pretty sure you can. I'm just wondering if you're refusing to acknowledge the allegiance and great friendship they had or just not aware that it existed?????. If that happened in Church Street Belfast, or Church Street Manchester, would you have been able to spot the difference?? Big bomb goes off killing innocent people in a public space. That to me deserves no praise at all, regardless of who set it off. 

 

I've got a very graphic photo of a small child that died in the Church street bombing attack. head imploded, legs gone, intestines out the waist, now i'm not putting it on here for obvious reasons, but according to some of you lot, that child died for "the greater good" - go and tell that child's parents that the kid deserved to die. Better yet, tell me on here. Tell me that a small child's death in a bombing planned by Mandela was justified. 

 

necklacing...... It was not just their enemies, if any black person in South Africa refused to take part in the strikes proclaimed by the ANC, they were accused of being collaborators with the regime and they were given the death sentence by this method of torture. as mrs mandela said "with tyres and matches we will liberate this country" - once again, it's too graphic to show on here, do your own research.

 

I'm sorry, but i cannot accept him being whiter than white (excuse the racial pun) like some of you on here. That's just an honest opinion of someone who thinks that killing innocent people by bombing public spaces and torturing people who say "no" by setting them on fire while tied within tyres does not deserve the praise he gets. 

As you've obviously read the book can you point me directly to the page the quote appears on.

[Mr Mosquito]

Us Brits do love a bit of mawkish third hand sentimentality. Tell people someone's a hero often enough and they'll eventually believe it. I'd love to know how much of the moral indignation directed at negative posts on this thread are a result of recent Wikipedia sessions, as opposed to genuine empathy with South Africa's turbulent past.

The facts of Mandela's terrorist leanings are still facts, even if some try to interpret them otherwise (hilariously)

Back to sticking fingers in ears and lalalalala-ing when anyone offers a different opinion all you Nelson fans!

 

The elitist led BBC propaganda news and views agency hasn't stopped pumping the airwaves with Nelson Mandela sentimentalities for the past few days. I was trying to watch the end of a Cold War submarine documentary on BBC2 when they first started bleating about his death. I notice that the Lib-Lab-Con high command are all out in South Africa - including warmonger Tony Blair - all at taxpayers' (our) expense of course. The BBC are bigging up all these publicity merchants as well.

[Mr Mosquito]

 

The comparison with Hitler is because having studied European History my whole academic life, I cannot find a single piece of evidence that suggests that Hitler actually killed a Jew (or anyone for that matter) himself, he arranged for his minions to do his bidding. In comparison to Mandela, was not him that set off the bomb (s), but he planned it. That means he has blood on his hands, innocent people's blood and their death's on his conscience. 

 

 

 

......this is interesting because during the first war Herr Hitler was a front line soldier that won the Iron Cross first class - rare for a Corporal. Still no evidence that he actually killed anyone. However, there is speculation that Hitler may have killed his own niece post World War 1. Hitler seemed to have a mesmeric personality over the German masses and yes he did get others to do his bidding. In contrast, Nelson Mandela was a very well educated and well read man while Hitler was semi educated. To me Hitler ran a death cult responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. In contrast, it could be that - in the end - Nelson Mandela helped to save the lives of millions and for all his dodgy past he seemed to love life unlike Hitler.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/529276/20131211/nelson-mandela-sign-language-interpreter-fake-south.htm

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

The elitist led BBC propaganda news and views agency hasn't stopped pumping the airwaves with Nelson Mandela sentimentalities for the past few days. I was trying to watch the end of a Cold War submarine documentary on BBC2 when they first started bleating about his death. I notice that the Lib-Lab-Con high command are all out in South Africa - including warmonger Tony Blair - all at taxpayers' (our) expense of course. The BBC are bigging up all these publicity merchants as well.

 

I think you'll find that this not limited to the BBC.  Independent broadcasters are doing exactly the same.

[Calculus]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/529276/20131211/nelson-mandela-sign-language-interpreter-fake-south.htm

 

If randomly waving your arms about qualifies you as a sign language interpreter then SOD's future is assured......

[Roger Red Hat]

If randomly waving your arms about qualifies you as a sign language interpreter then SOD's future is assured......

Apparently it qualifies you as a 'good' manager though. It's part of the UEFA 'a' badge course, I'm led to believe.............

[chipdawg]

The word 'terrorist' is a designation that can only be bestowed by the victor or the party in power at the time. If the definition of 'terrorist' is "someone who killed civilians" then it's somewhat cras for people to be walking around with images of Che Guevara on their clothing, or read the book 'Defiance' about the Bielsa guerrilla group in WW2. Or indeed celebrate the exploits of French and Dutch Resistance fighters in the same conflict. What about Laurence Of Arabia? Or the Hungarian Revolutionaries of 1956? Thats just covering a 20 year period in the 20th Century. All who- intentionally and unintentionally- killed civilians in striving to meet their aims and all who are celebrated figures rather than 'terrorists'

Labelling Mandela a callous, murderous terrorist is as stupid as to completely disregard his past. For me, what he achieved post-incarceration was greater than any bad that occurred pre-incarceration or while he was in prison. That said, I suspect the to the majority of people offering their RIPs have no idea that Mandela had a history prior to his release from prison

[marshy]

I think you'll find that this not limited to the BBC.  Independent broadcasters are doing exactly the same.

 

BBC sent 100 to cover the event, ITV sent 9 apparently. Can't remember where I read that.

[Roger Red Hat]

BBC sent 100 to cover the event, ITV sent 9 apparently. Can't remember where I read that.

Daily Fail?

[Red-Robbo]

ITV don't have a World Service, radio outlets or rolling news services.

[marshy]

Daily Fail?

 

Nope.

[marshy]

[Red-Robbo]