Tony Benn

[kmpowell]

Comparing Margaret Thatcher with Tony Benn and Bob Crow is very much not comparing like with like - Neither Bob Crow nor Tony Benn destroyed families, livelihoods and communities in the way Margaret Thatcher with her ideology and policies of the New Right did.

 

It is the grossest hypocrisy that many on the right now praise both Tony Benn and Bob Crow after their passings.

 

Once again, another 'red' who's failing to understand that it's your personal view, not fact. I on the other personally think Thatcher did NOT destroy families, livelihoods or communities. I think quite the reverse, I think she did what she needed to pull this country out of the utter mess it was in from the late 70's. A decrepit/ruined country owned and governed by the left and their champagne socialist views. Benn's and Crows ideologies on the other hand (although they do differ in many ways and I'm not tarring them with the same brush!) I personally find unsustainable. It's why I'm a conservative, and you're clearly not. The difference being I understand it doesn't give me the right to be disrespectful and sling opinionated mud when somebody passes away.

 

As I said in my first post above, Benn's conduct and the way he went about his beliefs can be remembered with pride and is something the left-wing ministers/unions of today should look on with embarrassment of their current behavior. Benn was an intelligent man who believed in what he believed in, just because I'm a Conservative and I don't agree with what he believed in doesn't make me a hypocrite, I can still pass my respect to him.

[RedZepperin]

Great politician, writer, debater and parliamentarian. Along with the other leading left-wingers of his time, he was reviled and slandered by the Establishment for decades. Still managed to get elected though and kept getting his message across.

 

Looking forward to hearing what Shirley Williams has to say.

[Mr Mosquito]

Once again, another 'red' who's failing to understand that it's your personal view, not fact. I on the other personally think Thatcher did NOT destroy families, livelihoods or communities. I think quite the reverse, I think she did what she needed to pull this country out of the utter mess it was in from the late 70's. A decrepit/ruined country owned and governed by the left and their champagne socialist views. Benn's and Crows ideologies on the other hand (although they do differ in many ways and I'm not tarring them with the same brush!) I personally find unsustainable. It's why I'm a conservative, and you're clearly not. The difference being I understand it doesn't give me the right to be disrespectful and sling opinionated mud when somebody passes away.

 

As I said in my first post above, Benn's conduct and the way he went about his beliefs can be remembered with pride and is something the left-wing ministers/unions of today should look on with embarrassment of their current behavior. Benn was an intelligent man who believed in what he believed in, just because I'm a Conservative and I don't agree with what he believed in doesn't make me a hypocrite, I can still pass my respect to him.

 

I think that Margaret Thatcher merely decelerated the decline that the country was already in. John Major and Tony Blair made matters far worse after Thatcher by selling out the one thing that we all had left - they sold out our command/sovereignty of our own country to the EU. We can all now look forward to a 'bright and rosy' future as part of a German dominated EU 4th Reich where the individual freedoms of speech and expression and democracy that Tony Benn advocated will be crushed.

[WTFiGO!?!]

What an interesting and ironic group of statement to make. I'm a Bristolian born & bred who regards himself to be 'worth his salt' (your words, not mine), but I'm not proud of him or proud of what he stood for. I have the up-most respect for him in the way he conducted himself and approached politics, but I do not agree with his ideologies or beliefs. It's interesting that this thread has been descended on by 'left-wing' crowd and already degenerated into the usual Tory/Thatcher bashing, rather than only showing respect. As a [proud] conservative I've notice that since Benn and Crow died, pretty much every Conservative I can think of has had the decency to respect their passing, rather than sling mud and dance on their graves. It's shame I can't say the same about 'the left' with their conduct now and also when Baroness Thatcher passed. Chipdawg, sums it up nicely above: "One of TBs great qualities seems to have been his open mind and acceptance of the fact that other people have differing views. Something that we all could learn from on here"

Thatcher brutally and needlessly ripped the souls out of numorous communities, making a direct and profoundly negative impact upon millions of peoples lives.

Although dancing on her grave was tasteless it was a reciprocated response to how people had been treated by her. I know, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Being respectful to someone who you agree to disagree with is a different matter.

Have on authority that many opposing politicians enjoy drinks together. Unlike Thatcher and Benn, most politicians are self-serving hypocrites not congruent and sincere philosophers.

[Red-Robbo]

.......remarkable how, if one lives long enough, one can morph from an often maverick dangerous loony into a harmless old buffer.    Tony Benn was a champion of the comprehensive secondary school system - the biggest shackle to the progress of bright working class children in my opinion. The man enjoyed a privileged Oxbridge education and then prevented children of the working class enjoying Grammar schools. I was also totally opposed to his views on leaving this country almost defenceless by abolishing our nuclear deterent.

 

At the end of the day Tony Benn was a truely great politician who held some fairly whacky and interesting views, but when it came to observing his socialist principles, he did not budge one iota, irrespective of how damaging or impractical they were.

 

 

I don't think going to a comprehensive school shackled my progress - and I expect Ed Miliband, William Hague and various others would say the same for themselves. 

 

On the contrary, I think failing one exam at 11 and being told "that's it, you're destined to be a manual worker" did a great dis-service to generations of children who were bright but maybe late developers or exam phobics or just weren't well at the time of their 11+.

 

Not all comps are run-down basket cases. The school I went to in Street got better exam results than neighbouring Millfield School - at that time, the country's most expensive private school.

[Mr Mosquito]

Thatcher brutally and needlessly ripped the souls out of numorous communities, making a direct and profoundly negative impact upon millions of peoples lives.

Although dancing on her grave was tasteless it was a reciprocated response to how people had been treated by her. I know, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Being respectful to someone who you agree to disagree with is a different matter.

Have on authority that many opposing politicians enjoy drinks together. Unlike Thatcher and Benn, most politicians are self-serving hypocrites not congruent and sincere philosophers.

 

Looking back at the bigger picture we're in industrial decline, Mrs Thatcher tried to balance the books and she chose to decrease social spending and spending on state industries in order to help pay for the defence of Western Europe with our military stationed in Western Germany and with expensive nuclear weapons. No matter what government we have they'll always be brought down with the cost of Europe until we cut ties with them. In the past we've spent a fortune fighting wars in Europe fighting Napoleon, then the Kaiser and then Hitler, then defending Europe from Soviet Russians, and now we've got to fund the shitty corrupt EU project. Tony Benn seemed to be saying for us to leave the EU and abandon nuclear weapons and spend the savings on social projects.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I don't think going to a comprehensive school shackled my progress - and I expect Ed Miliband, William Hague and various others would say the same for themselves.  On the contrary, I think failing one exam at 11 and being told "that's it, you're destined to be a manual worker" did a great dis-service to generations of children who were bright but maybe late developers or exam phobics or just weren't well at the time of their 11+. Not all comps are run-down basket cases. The school I went to in Street got better exam results than neighbouring Millfield School - at that time, the country's most expensive private school.

To add to that, I went to a comp school, the same one that was born from a grammar school that Uncle Steve Lansdown attended. I'm relatively bright and from a relatively middle class background. My parents are very anti a hierarchical education system with central left views.

Maybe a spot of reverse-snobbery on your part Mr Goblin?

[Mr Mosquito]

I don't think going to a comprehensive school shackled my progress - and I expect Ed Miliband, William Hague and various others would say the same for themselves. 

 

On the contrary, I think failing one exam at 11 and being told "that's it, you're destined to be a manual worker" did a great dis-service to generations of children who were bright but maybe late developers or exam phobics or just weren't well at the time of their 11+.

 

Not all comps are run-down basket cases. The school I went to in Street got better exam results than neighbouring Millfield School - at that time, the country's most expensive private school.

 

........progress?.....you're slumming it on here writing topical gobshite with an ex Grammar School boy.   So much for your Tony Benn inspired Comprehensive School education.

[Red-Robbo]

........progress?.....you're slumming it on here writing topical gobshite with an ex Grammar School boy.   So much for your Tony Benn inspired Comprehensive School education.

 

Hehe. What was interesting was had my parents stayed within the confines of then-Labour controlled Bristol LEA (or whatever they were called back then) I'd have gone to a grammar as I had passed my 11+ .

 

However, they moved to Tory-controlled Somerset where there were only comprehensives.

 

Sometimes, issues aren't party political.

[Mr Mosquito]

To add to that, I went to a comp school, the same one that was born from a grammar school that Uncle Steve Lansdown attended. I'm relatively bright and from a relatively middle class background. My parents are very anti a hierarchical education system with central left views.

Maybe a spot of reverse-snobbery on your part Mr Goblin?

 

My reverse-snobbery is to.......

 

Shit on

Shit on

Shit on the bastards below

Below !!!!!!

 

.......not quite what the late great Tony Benn would advocate but I'm not Tony Benn.

[Mr Mosquito]

Hehe. What was interesting was had my parents stayed within the confines of then-Labour controlled Bristol LEA (or whatever they were called back then) I'd have gone to a grammar as I had passed my 11+ .

 

However, they moved to Tory-controlled Somerset where there were only comprehensives.

 

Sometimes, issues aren't party political.

 

A Conservative Party monster member once said to me that the biggest failing of Margaret Thatcher - in his eyes - was her failure to support the state funded Grammar Schools properly.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Looking back at the bigger picture we're in industrial decline, Mrs Thatcher tried to balance the books and she chose to decrease social spending and spending on state industries in order to help pay for the defence of Western Europe with our military stationed in Western Germany and with expensive nuclear weapons. No matter what government we have they'll always be brought down with the cost of Europe until we cut ties with them. In the past we've spent a fortune fighting wars in Europe fighting Napoleon, then the Kaiser and then Hitler, then defending Europe from Soviet Russians, and now we've got to fund the shitty corrupt EU project. Tony Benn seemed to be saying for us to leave the EU and abandon nuclear weapons and spend the savings on social projects.

Don't think it was what Thatcher did, the country was at its knees, but the way that she did it.

Don't know enough about Benn to comment.

Bit confused by your political views, Gobbers. Anti-lib-con-lab party. Anti Thatcher (presumably, with your working class identity), anti Tony Benn.

Are your only motives Europe and immigration?

And City?

[Red-Robbo]

My reverse-snobbery is to.......

 

Shit on

Shit on

Shit on the bastards below

Below !!!!!!

 

.......not quite what the late great Tony Benn would advocate but I'm not Tony Benn.

 

 

Do you also sing "The working class/Can kiss my ass/I've got the foreman's job at last!"  ?

 

(To the tune of The Red Flag, of course)

[RodViler]

What an interesting and ironic group of statement to make. I'm a Bristolian born & bred who regards himself to be 'worth his salt' (your words, not mine), but I'm not proud of him or

proud of what he stood for. I have the up-most

respect for him in the way he conducted himself

and approached politics, but I do not agree with

his ideologies or beliefs.

It's interesting that this thread has been

descended on by 'left-wing' crowd and already

degenerated into the usual Tory/Thatcher

bashing, rather than only showing respect. As a

[proud] conservative I've notice that since Benn

and Crow died, pretty much every Conservative

I can think of has had the decency to respect

their passing, rather than sling mud and dance

on their graves. It's shame I can't say the same

about 'the left' with their conduct now and also

when Baroness Thatcher passed.

Chipdawg, sums it up nicely above: "One of

TBs great qualities seems to have been his open

mind and acceptance of the fact that other

people have differing views. Something that we

all could learn from on here"

I also concur with that sentiment and think you will agree Ed Milliband's response to Thatcher's passing was dignified and respectful. However, Thatcher was intentionally divisive, as is Cameron, hence why they receive no respect from me and as for the baroness moniker, Tony Benn didn't require such trinkets or facile titles to attain respect or greatness.

[chipdawg]

What an interesting and ironic group of statement to make. I'm a Bristolian born & bred who regards himself to be 'worth his salt' (your words, not mine), but I'm not proud of him or proud of what he stood for. I have the up-most respect for him in the way he conducted himself and approached politics, but I do not agree with his ideologies or beliefs.

It's interesting that this thread has been descended on by 'left-wing' crowd and already degenerated into the usual Tory/Thatcher bashing, rather than only showing respect. As a [proud] conservative I've notice that since Benn and Crow died, pretty much every Conservative I can think of has had the decency to respect their passing, rather than sling mud and dance on their graves. It's shame I can't say the same about 'the left' with their conduct now and also when Baroness Thatcher passed.

Chipdawg, sums it up nicely above: "One of TBs great qualities seems to have been his open mind and acceptance of the fact that other people have differing views. Something that we all could learn from on here"

Briefly going back through the thread, before you posted this (and ignoring Red Goblins posts because he hates everyone) I found 2 dismissive references to Cameron, 1 about Thatcher and 1 to Tony Blair. 3 of the 4 total references were in one post from 1 poster. So feel free to distance yourself from Tony Benn's political views but please don't back it up with falsehoods about us 'lefties' please

The vast majority of comments following the death of Thatcher on here were also respectful, but as Tony Benn never destroyed anyone's livelihood, criminalised any sections of society or dismantled any sectors of the British economy in favour of a free-for-all in the City Of London (she was by no means the only PM guilty of that)in order to destroy the unionised workforce, I understand those who couldn't find a good word to day about her

[Mr Mosquito]

I also concur with that sentiment and think you will agree Ed Milliband's response to Thatcher's passing was dignified and respectful. However, Thatcher was intentionally divisive, as is Cameron, hence why they receive no respect from me and as for the baroness moniker, Tony Benn didn't require such trinkets or facile titles to attain respect or greatness.

 

It's a fantastic testament to Tony Benn that he himself could inspire such great political mass debate on this - a football forum. My overall view of Tony Benn was that he wanted ordinary people to engage more with politics and thus the running of their country.

[RodViler]

It's a fantastic testament to Tony Benn that he himself could inspire such great political mass debate on this - a football forum. My overall view of Tony Benn was that he wanted ordinary

people to engage more with politics and thus the

running of their country.

Couldn't agree more Red Goblin. Tony Benn was in politics for the people and not personal gain or glory. Where are the new Tony Benns'?

Politicians of all parties should be asking that same question as they reflect on his passing.

[The Batman]

tony benn closed more coal mines as energy secretary in 5 years than thatcher did in the following 12........

 

yet supported scargill in order to destroy the democratically elected government in the 80's.

 

maybe thatcher would not have been seen in the light she was had labour not destroyed the country and this particular industry beforehand.....

 

At the end of the day, a man has lost his life and his family have lost a loved one. I disagreed with a lot of what he said, but the fact he stood for something different and was not just a run-of-the-mill MP who blended in should be commended.

 

Met him as well many years ago in London and had a (albeit brief) conversation about his stop the war motives. Always had time to chat to people, especially when he twigged i was bristolian. 

[Red-Robbo]

tony benn closed more coal mines as energy secretary in 5 years than thatcher did in the following 12........

 

yet supported scargill in order to destroy the democratically elected government in the 80's.

 

maybe thatcher would not have been seen in the light she was had labour not destroyed the country and this particular industry beforehand.....

 

At the end of the day, a man has lost his life and his family have lost a loved one. I disagreed with a lot of what he said, but the fact he stood for something different and was not just a run-of-the-mill MP who blended in should be commended.

 

Met him as well many years ago in London and had a (albeit brief) conversation about his stop the war motives. Always had time to chat to people, especially when he twigged i was bristolian. 

 

 

The big difference was that the mine closure programme during Sir Ian McGregor's reign at the NCB closed economic pits - for political reasons, as has been shown by cabinet papers subsequently released.

 

Pits that come to the end of their economic life have always been closed. 

[marshy]

The big difference was that the mine closure programme during Sir Ian McGregor's reign at the NCB closed economic pits - for political reasons, as has been shown by cabinet papers subsequently released.

 

Pits that come to the end of their economic life have always been closed. 

 

Although the potential number of closures discussed at Cabinet meetings may have been witheld at the time for tactical reasons there is no suggestion that the closures would have been for 'political' and not 'economic' reasons.

[chipdawg]

The big difference was that the mine closure programme during Sir Ian McGregor's reign at the NCB closed economic pits - for political reasons, as has been shown by cabinet papers subsequently released.

Pits that come to the end of their economic life have always been closed.

Further to that, the people who worked at the pits closed under Labour were given opportunity to retrain and diversify their local economy, while those that worked at the mines closed in the 1980s were simply cut adrift- punished for the ****less, self-serving tactics of their union. I don't have a problem with Thatcher's closing of mines, I have a problem with her governments abandonment of the communities that survived on them

However, getting away from the point again. TB was by no means perfect himself, but his greatness was in the courage of his convictions. Something I would have to admit (through gritted teeth!) he did share with Mrs Thatcher, even if the convictions themselves were wildly different

[Red-Robbo]

Although the potential number of closures discussed at Cabinet meetings may have been witheld at the time for tactical reasons there is no suggestion that the closures would have been for 'political' and not 'economic' reasons.

 

Post-event analysis has shown that economic pits were closed and you have a very benign view of the Conservative Party in the 70s if you think they'd forgiven the NUM for helping to bring down the Heath government.

[marshy]

Post-event analysis has shown that economic pits were closed and you have a very benign view of the Conservative Party in the 70s if you think they'd forgiven the NUM for helping to bring down the Heath government.

 

I was replying to your post which suggested that this was shown in the released Cabinet papers.

 

Of course Thatcher wanted to take on the Union, it was too powerful and had the capability of holding the country to ransom. Election results show that at the time she had the support of the electorate in what she was trying to achieve.

[Mr Mosquito]

Post-event analysis has shown that economic pits were closed and you have a very benign view of the Conservative Party in the 70s if you think they'd forgiven the NUM for helping to bring down the Heath government.

 

In many ways you'd have thought that Margaret Thatcher would have had a soft spot for the NUM as they'd brought down Heath's government that later led directly to her becoming leader of the Conservative Party. She was an ungrateful bitch in this respect and she changed her Lincolnshire accent to sound more like a Tory Toff. However, Margaret Thatcher did - like Tony Benn - get ordinary people interested in and debating politics but for mainly the wrong reasons like growing unemployment.

[Mr Mosquito]

Couldn't agree more Red Goblin. Tony Benn was in politics for the people and not personal gain or glory. Where are the new Tony Benns'?

Politicians of all parties should be asking that same question as they reflect on his passing.

 

My current favourite in politics is Nigel Farage who had the courage of conviction to leave the Conservative Party when John Major treasonously signed us up to the EU project with absolutely no democratic consultation of the British people via a referendum. There's literally hundreds of videos of Nigel Farage on YouTube taking on the various EU despots in the vipers' nest of the EU Parliament. He's a legend but none of his exploits in the EU Parliament get shown on mainstream television. These YouTube videos span over a ten year period - mainstream media censorship ????

[PunkRockDad]

Once again, another 'red' who's failing to understand that it's your personal view, not fact. I on the other personally think Thatcher did NOT destroy families, livelihoods or communities. I think quite the reverse, I think she did what she needed to pull this country out of the utter mess it was in from the late 70's. A decrepit/ruined country owned and governed by the left and their champagne socialist views. Benn's and Crows ideologies on the other hand (although they do differ in many ways and I'm not tarring them with the same brush!) I personally find unsustainable. It's why I'm a conservative, and you're clearly not. The difference being I understand it doesn't give me the right to be disrespectful and sling opinionated mud when somebody passes away.

 

As I said in my first post above, Benn's conduct and the way he went about his beliefs can be remembered with pride and is something the left-wing ministers/unions of today should look on with embarrassment of their current behavior. Benn was an intelligent man who believed in what he believed in, just because I'm a Conservative and I don't agree with what he believed in doesn't make me a hypocrite, I can still pass my respect to him.

 

Please don't misunderstand me - I wasn't having a go at you personally.  I simply believe that those on the right (includiung the right in the Labour Party) coming out with their praise for Tony Benn and Bob Crow is hypocrisy.  

 

You are wrong, however, in saying that Margaret Thatcher's legacy is a matter of personal opinion and not fact.  I have lived my life in the South Wales Coalfield.  The ideology and policies of Margaret Thatcher smashed these places, during her time as Primeminister.  The pace and intensity of her politically motivated pit closure programme has meant that 30 years on from the Miners Strike of 1984-85, these places have still not recovered.  Take my hometown for example - At the Miners Institute, a wall map shows the location of 28 collieries that were operating in South Wales on the eve of the strike.  Within a decade, all had been closed.  Try as it may to put a brave face on it, walk the streets of my town and the signs of decline are all too clear - Abandoned buildings and boarded-up chapel fronts, cheap fast food take aways, pound stores, credit unions, empty landscapes where young people hang around drinking white cider they buy from convenience stores selling 10 cans of the stuff for less than a fiver.  This grim emblem is repeated thoughout the former coalfields of the UK,  where decaying towns and villages have been left to rot.

 

Don't simply take my word for it, this BBC News article says something similar: 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23028078

[Mr Mosquito]

 

You are wrong, however, in saying that Margaret Thatcher's legacy is a matter of personal opinion and not fact.  I have lived my life in the South Wales Coalfield.  The ideology and policies of Margaret Thatcher smashed these places, during her time as Primeminister.  The pace and intensity of her politically motivated pit closure programme has meant that 30 years on from the Miners Strike of 1984-85, these places have still not recovered.  Take my hometown for example - At the Miners Institute, a wall map shows the location of 28 collieries that were operating in South Wales on the eve of the strike.  Within a decade, all had been closed.  Try as it may to put a brave face on it, walk the streets of my town and the signs of decline are all too clear - Abandoned buildings and boarded-up chapel fronts, cheap fast food take aways, pound stores, credit unions, empty landscapes where young people hang around drinking white cider they buy from convenience stores selling 10 cans of the stuff for less than a fiver.  This grim emblem is repeated thoughout the former coalfields of the UK,  where decaying towns and villages have been left to rot.

 

Don't simply take my word for it, this BBC News article says something similar: 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23028078

 

Following the Miners' Strike of 1984-85 you've had 13 years of Labour Party government with a massive majority in 1997 to bring about real change. So, even though the people of South Wales have helped vote in those 3 Labour governments from 1997 to 2010  - Labour have done nothing to help your community with industrial regeneration? Sounds about right with Labour's Tony Blair and Co more interested in profiting from foreign wars over oil.

[Red-Robbo]

I was replying to your post which suggested that this was shown in the released Cabinet papers.

 

Of course Thatcher wanted to take on the Union, it was too powerful and had the capability of holding the country to ransom. Election results show that at the time she had the support of the electorate in what she was trying to achieve.

 

 

In terms of trying to get a fair deal for people doing a difficult, dangerous [miners still died on a regular basis in those days] and increasingly highly skilled job, I'd say the NUM was fulfilling its remit.

 

Even Scargill accepted some pits would close.

 

Of course, the closure programme - dreamed up before Thatcher's election and not based on economic factors - has now robbed the UK of seams of coal that - had they not been allowed to flood - would now provide the UK with alternatives to Russian gas, Arab oil and Namibian uranium.

[chipdawg]

In terms of trying to get a fair deal for people doing a difficult, dangerous [miners still died on a regular basis in those days] and increasingly highly skilled job, I'd say the NUM was fulfilling its remit.

Even Scargill accepted some pits would close.

Of course, the closure programme - dreamed up before Thatcher's election and not based on economic factors - has now robbed the UK of seams of coal that - had they not been allowed to flood - would now provide the UK with alternatives to Russian gas, Arab oil and Namibian uranium.

'Namibian Uranium' would be a brilliant name for a shit band

I've also found irony in this of late. There's been political momentum towards carbon-capture technology on fossil fuels in energy generation, but because we now have no pits and no skilled workforce to operate them, if we go down that route it would leave us reliant on increasingly expensive imports. All the while there's millions of tonnes of coal beneath Yorkshire and South Wales that we can't get at because of the actions of a former government and the NUM, who should never be admonished of their share of the blame. In addition, we could have provided work in some of the poorest parts of the UK throughout the recent economic downturn. Germany, France, USA and Canada all propped up faltering coal mining in the 1980s because they recognised the importance of raw materials in the long term, where as we sacrificed it on the alter of political points scoring, convinced that the river of gold flowing out of Canary Wharf and the City of London could never run dry

[Portland Bill]

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