Tony Benn

[Portland Bill]

tony benn closed more coal mines as energy secretary in 5 years than thatcher did in the following 12........

Oh dear, why come out with something but not follow it with the facts.

Tony Benn and Labour shut the uneconomic pits, but..... No Miner lost his job because ( through this policy) because they were offered jobs at other working pits nearby.

I don't want to go into another antiThatcher post, but ( as you mentioned her) Thatcher closed the coal industry due to her ideology and her hatred of miners and working class people.

Tony Benn was an honest man who stuck to his principles. We have lost a great man today imo.

[Portland Bill]

I was replying to your post which suggested that this was shown in the released Cabinet papers.

Of course Thatcher wanted to take on the Union, it was too powerful and had the capability of holding the country to ransom. Election results show that at the time she had the support of the electorate in what she was trying to achieve.

I would disagree that she had the country's support in what she was doing to the miners.

But even if she did it was only through the lies that her and the right wing media told the public.

History ( and the official papers with the lies) now shows this.

[Mr Mosquito]

In terms of trying to get a fair deal for people doing a difficult, dangerous [miners still died on a regular basis in those days] and increasingly highly skilled job, I'd say the NUM was fulfilling its remit.

 

Even Scargill accepted some pits would close.

 

Of course, the closure programme - dreamed up before Thatcher's election and not based on economic factors - has now robbed the UK of seams of coal that - had they not been allowed to flood - would now provide the UK with alternatives to Russian gas, Arab oil and Namibian uranium.

 

....our seams of coal would also provide an alternative to the endless banks of EU manufactured windmills and wind farms that are increasingly blotting our landscape.

[Mr Mosquito]

Tony Benn at his most brilliant.

 

"Tony Benn -- The issue is Thatcher"...............

 

[Monkeh]

....our seams of coal would also provide an alternative to the endless banks of EU manufactured windmills and wind farms that are increasingly blotting our landscape.

why don't you go and live in the middle east if you hate the EU so much and see how much of a voice you have then

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I would disagree that she had the country's support in what she was doing to the miners.

But even if she did it was only through the lies that her and the right wing media told the public.

History ( and the official papers with the lies) now shows this.

 

Come off it Bill, she was re-elected 3 times, it's not as if the voting public didn't know what was going on was it?, they gave her 3 mandates to carry on, the 2nd election a majority of 144 and the 3rd with 104. When she was supposed to be hated.

 

 

 

[Mr Mosquito]

why don't you go and live in the middle east if you hate the EU so much and see how much of a voice you have then

 

......go live in China, you'd be a gastronomic delight for a Chinese and I could watch on Youtube as your monkey head is drilled and your brains sucked out through a straw.

[PunkRockDad]

[marshy]

Post-event analysis has shown that economic pits were closed and you have a very benign view of the Conservative Party in the 70s if you think they'd forgiven the NUM for helping to bring down the Heath government.

 

Post-event analysis is a wonderful thing. If only Thatcher had known that one day the pits could have been worked by an endless supply of cheap Eastern European labour doing the job for a fraction of the local population I'm sure they could have been kept open for economic reasons.

[Red-Robbo]

Post-event analysis is a wonderful thing. If only Thatcher had known that one day the pits could have been worked by an endless supply of cheap Eastern European labour doing the job for a fraction of the local population I'm sure they could have been kept open for economic reasons.

 

 

They'd be economic if worked by decently paid British mineworkers too, Marshy. The fact is, the industry was sacrificed for ideological reasons.

[Mr Mosquito]

[Mr Mosquito]

They'd be economic if worked by decently paid British mineworkers too, Marshy. The fact is, the industry was sacrificed for ideological reasons.

 

Indeed, the Conservative Party wanted to break the Miners' Union at whatever the cost. The Tories were even importing smelly burning coal from Communist Poland and coal mined by 5 year olds in Chile to keep the coal fired power stations fuelled during the Miners' strike. From the NUM's perspective, their leadership should have sat down with the government and worked out the best deal for their members early on because it was obvious - very early on - to everyone that the Tories would break the strike at whatever the cost.

[PunkRockDad]

tony benn closed more coal mines as energy secretary in 5 years than thatcher did in the following 12........

 

yet supported scargill in order to destroy the democratically elected government in the 80's.

 

maybe thatcher would not have been seen in the light she was had labour not destroyed the country and this particular industry beforehand.....

 

At the end of the day, a man has lost his life and his family have lost a loved one. I disagreed with a lot of what he said, but the fact he stood for something different and was not just a run-of-the-mill MP who blended in should be commended.

 

Met him as well many years ago in London and had a (albeit brief) conversation about his stop the war motives. Always had time to chat to people, especially when he twigged i was bristolian. 

 

You are totally missing the context of pit closures. 

 

Coal mines close for any number of different reasons - Geology, they become exhausted, economic reasons and so forth.  Margaret Thatcher's motivations in sending the coal industry into relentless and what proved to be terminal decline, were political - She wanted to smash the 'enemy within'. 

[PunkRockDad]

Sounds to me as if it would have been better value to have re-opened one of the coal mines to provide jobs. Where was His Labour Party Lordship Lord Neil Kinnock when you needed him? Lording it in one of the executive boxes at Cardiff City FC maybe?

 

Kinnock very much betrayed the miners and their families, displaying an absence of principle throughout the strike.  He had many opportunities to condemn Thatcher's pit closure programme but remained largely silent.

[Red-Robbo]

Indeed, the Conservative Party wanted to break the Miners' Union at whatever the cost. The Tories were even importing smelly burning coal from Communist Poland and coal mined by 5 year olds in Chile to keep the coal fired power stations fuelled during the Miners' strike. From the NUM's perspective, their leadership should have sat down with the government and worked out the best deal for their members early on because it was obvious - very early on - to everyone that the Tories would break the strike at whatever the cost.

 

 

Scargill certainly should've ballotted. The disregard for the law allowed a wedge to be driven between differing coalfields and NUM funds to be legally stolen by accountants - who never seem to be able to do such a good job tracking down the missing billions of the tax evading super rich.

 

I bet old Silver Birch or whatever he was called from the Nottinghamshire miners felt a bit of a tvat when all their pits were closed just a few years later. Dead Elm or Three Short Planks would've been a better codename.

[Portland Bill]

Come off it Bill, she was re-elected 3 times, it's not as if the voting public didn't know what was going on was it?, they gave her 3 mandates to carry on, the 2nd election a majority of 144 and the 3rd with 104. When she was supposed to be hated.

More hated her than liked her, can't remember her getting 50+ % of the vote

In fact she never got more than 44% of the vote.

In 1980 she had the lowest ever polling of a PM,in 1981 she found a way of creating a situation where Argentina's junta saw a way into the Falklands.

Taking away the Falklands only contact with the UK ( HMS Endurance) and telling the Islanders to get supplies from Argentina, is not the sign of a PM who thought the Islands were worth fighting for.............. Until she saw her poll ratings.

She won 2 more elections, mainly due to a very poor Labour Party and the selling off of anything the UK had, on the cheap ( shares = bribery).

Eventually even her own party turned on her.

[chipdawg]

[Portland Bill]

Although the potential number of closures discussed at Cabinet meetings may have been witheld at the time for tactical reasons there is no suggestion that the closures would have been for 'political' and not 'economic' reasons.

Do you actually honestly believe that??

You will be telling me that Santa exists next

[054123]

What an interesting and ironic group of statement to make. I'm a Bristolian born & bred who regards himself to be 'worth his salt' (your words, not mine), but I'm not proud of him or proud of what he stood for. I have the up-most respect for him in the way he conducted himself and approached politics, but I do not agree with his ideologies or beliefs.

 

It's interesting that this thread has been descended on by 'left-wing' crowd and already degenerated into the usual Tory/Thatcher bashing, rather than only showing respect. As a [proud] conservative I've notice that since Benn and Crow died, pretty much every Conservative I can think of has had the decency to respect their passing, rather than sling mud and dance on their graves. It's shame I can't say the same about 'the left' with their conduct now and also when Baroness Thatcher passed.

 

Chipdawg, sums it up nicely above: "One of TBs great qualities seems to have been his open mind and acceptance of the fact that other people have differing views. Something that we all could learn from on here"

I suppose you have to ask yourself is it about you or is ut about everyone? If its about you the society has failed. If its about everyone then society has a duty to start at the bottom and work up.

Right wing politics is concerned with the individual left with the whole. Only when everyone gas a stake in society will it succeed

[marshy]

Do you actually honestly believe that??

You will be telling me that Santa exists next

 

You need to read the reply in the context of the post to which I was replying, specifically concerning the minutes of Cabinet meetings.

 

You will no doubt be telling me soon that you believe in Marx's labour theory of value and that you can build a more prosperous society based on the creed of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.'

[Cowshed]

Although the potential number of closures discussed at Cabinet meetings may have been witheld at the time for tactical reasons ;there is no suggestion that the closures would have been for 'political' and not 'economic' reasons.

Thatcher closed economic pits and spent hundreds of millions taking on a union. The police and MI5, MI6 and GCHQ were turned on parts of the populace, laws were changed, 64,000 jobs at least were lost and on it goes. The Tories themselves are still resisting any investigation into the roles of the security services or an enquiry into police behaviour - mass illegal arrest e.g. Orgreave ... The only reason for all of this was her political ideals and that aspects of society must be disenfranchised v the free market.

Benn was a man in contrast of decency, humility and morals working for the greater good.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

More hated her than liked her, can't remember her getting 50+ % of the vote

In fact she never got more than 44% of the vote.

In 1980 she had the lowest ever polling of a PM,in 1981 she found a way of creating a situation where Argentina's junta saw a way into the Falklands.

Taking away the Falklands only contact with the UK ( HMS Endurance) and telling the Islanders to get supplies from Argentina, is not the sign of a PM who thought the Islands were worth fighting for.............. Until she saw her poll ratings.

She won 2 more elections, mainly due to a very poor Labour Party and the selling off of anything the UK had, on the cheap ( shares = bribery).

Eventually even her own party turned on her.

 

Big deal, labour only got 43% of the vote in 1997, means nothing whatsoever, still gave them the mandate to wage an illegal war in Iraq which Blair claims is a safer place, though I expect 1,500 who have died so far this year might disagree, allowed the gap between rich and poor to grow, raid pensions, sell all our gold reserves and now we are seeing the scale of a surrender he made to the IRA in his haste to try to earn a saint hood before handing his mess over to Gormless Brown.

 

if Maggie has gone to hell, Blair will follow of that there is no doubt.

 

As for Tony Benn, a proper politician of that there is no doubt, unlike Dawnie he stuck to his left wing principles to the end.

 

 

 

[Mr Mosquito]

An excellent obituary from the BBC, here's an extract with salient points of interest to me emboldened.......

 

Co-operatives

 

In 1967, he became minister of technology with responsibility for the development of Concorde.

With Ted Heath's Conservatives winning the 1970 general election, Benn turned his attention to campaigning for a referendum on Heath's plans to take Britain into the European Economic Community.

He remained a fervent opponent of European integration, claiming that Europe was bureaucratic, centralised and dominated by Germany.

In 1975 he campaigned for a No vote when Harold Wilson's Labour government finally allowed a public vote on the issue.

 

 

An avuncular manner

 

As Wilson's secretary of state for energy, Benn encouraged a number of workers' co-operatives in a bid to keep struggling firms afloat.

The most notable was Meriden in the Midlands, which continued to produce Triumph motorcycles for another decade.

He also stood for leadership of the Labour Party when Wilson resigned in 1976. He lost on the first ballot and switched his support to Michael Foot, who subsequently lost out to James Callaghan.

His decision to support Foot was a mark of his shift to the left, which he later attributed to his experience as a cabinet minister.

 

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26575041

[Portland Bill]

Big deal, labour only got 43% of the vote in 1997, means nothing whatsoever, still gave them the mandate to wage an illegal war in Iraq which Blair claims is a safer place, though I expect 1,500 who have died so far this year might disagree, allowed the gap between rich and poor to grow, raid pensions, sell all our gold reserves and now we are seeing the scale of a surrender he made to the IRA in his haste to try to earn a saint hood before handing his mess over to Gormless Brown.

if Maggie has gone to hell, Blair will follow of that there is no doubt.

As for Tony Benn, a proper politician of that there is no doubt, unlike Dawnie he stuck to his left wing principles to the end.

I'm not a Blair fan, far from it.

I'm sure the 57% who voted against him felt the same,the same as the 56-60 % who voted against Thatcher.

We could go on all day ( all year perhaps ) about different policies.

We do agree re Tony Benn, he stuck to his principles all through his life.

I met him 2 years ago at Tolpuddle,lovely bloke.

[Red-Robbo]

Big deal, labour only got 43% of the vote in 1997, means nothing whatsoever, still gave them the mandate to wage an illegal war in Iraq which Blair claims is a safer place, though I expect 1,500 who have died so far this year might disagree, allowed the gap between rich and poor to grow, raid pensions, sell all our gold reserves and now we are seeing the scale of a surrender he made to the IRA in his haste to try to earn a saint hood before handing his mess over to Gormless Brown.

 

if Maggie has gone to hell, Blair will follow of that there is no doubt.

 

As for Tony Benn, a proper politician of that there is no doubt, unlike Dawnie he stuck to his left wing principles to the end.

 

 

Maybe the 1,250,000 who died in the 1980-82 Iran-Iraq War (started by Saddam) might agree, however!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Maybe the 1,250,000 who died in the 1980-82 Iran-Iraq War (started by Saddam) might agree, however!

 

21 years before Blairs USA/oil based incursion, bit of a stretch that isn't it?, if Blair was so offended by that he should gone in 1997.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I'm not a Blair fan, far from it.

I'm sure the 57% who voted against him felt the same,the same as the 56-60 % who voted against Thatcher.

We could go on all day ( all year perhaps ) about different policies.

We do agree re Tony Benn, he stuck to his principles all through his life.

I met him 2 years ago at Tolpuddle,lovely bloke.

 

The difference is Bill, Thatcher turned on the people who didn't vote for, whereas Blair turned on the people who did vote for him.

 

PS:- I can tell you Bill, I would have the same politics as Mr Benn if I had his wealth, I could afford those views then.

 

 

 

 

 

[Red-Robbo]

21 years before Blairs USA/oil based incursion, bit of a stretch that isn't it?, if Blair was so offended by that he should gone in 1997.

 

 

No matter what a pigs ear Iraq is now, there can be no doubt that fewer people will die in the years after Saddam's death than before it. You don't have to go back to 82. He killed 200,000 Kurds - including poison gas attacks - in 1988 and more  than 200,000 Kurds, Shiites and Christian Iraqis in 1991. That's not to mention, the estimated 500,000 arrested for political crimes during his regime, most of whom ended up buried somewhere in the desert.

 

There's little doubt the World's better off without the c-.

 

However, the West's handling of Saddam was a disaster throughout, I think we can agree. 

 

Anyway, getting off the point of Tony Benn. He'd also agree that the West mishandled Iraq. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

No matter what a pigs ear Iraq is now, there can be no doubt that fewer people will die in the years after Saddam's death than before it. You don't have to go back to 82. He killed 200,000 Kurds - including poison gas attacks - in 1988 and more  than 200,000 Kurds, Shiites and Christian Iraqis in 1991. That's not to mention, the estimated 500,000 arrested for political crimes during his regime, most of whom ended up buried somewhere in the desert.

 

There's little doubt the World's better off without the c-.

 

However, the West's handling of Saddam was a disaster throughout, I think we can agree. 

 

Anyway, getting off the point of Tony Benn. He'd also agree that the West mishandled Iraq. 

 

indeed he would and did.

 

However there are far too many despots who carried out and still carry atrocities to their own people, but most of them don't possess oil, amen.

 

 

[marshy]

Thatcher closed economic pits and spent hundreds of millions taking on a union. The police and MI5, MI6 and GCHQ were turned on parts of the populace, laws were changed, 64,000 jobs at least were lost and on it goes. The Tories themselves are still resisting any investigation into the roles of the security services or an enquiry into police behaviour - mass illegal arrest e.g. Orgreave ... The only reason for all of this was her political ideals and that aspects of society must be disenfranchised v the free market.

Benn was a man in contrast of decency, humility and morals working for the greater good.

 

Someone else that has not read my reply in the context of the post to which I was replying. I thought it was clear that I was referring to the minutes of the Cabinet meeting and not expressing my personal view . Of course there was a politcal angle to the actions she took. She was a politician for goodness sake.