Rudolf Hucker Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 You've hit the nail on the head, Dolly. It's not just about doing the time, it's about what effect doing that time has had upon the offender. A prison sentence is only in part a punishment; it is also meant to rehabilitate and reform the offender. Evans has shown no evidence of remorse, hence his time in prison has not had the intended effect. For that reason, I don't believe that he should have been released having served just half of his sentence. Time off for "good behaviour" is not intended to be all about just being a model prisoner; it's intended that he will have learned his lesson in committing the crime in the first place. Unless Evans has shown remorse, I fail to see how he can possibly have learned any lesson other than "don't get caught". I would not want him at my club or at any club against which we might play. Perhaps he should seek a job as coach of a ladies football team; let's see how welcomed he is by them and how he responds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I think the issue for me with Ched is that he has never shown any remorse for what he did. I am posting a few quotes below from the press which sum up my feelings on things pretty well. It's his arrogance around the whole thing that is irking most people. Yes he's done his time, but he doesnt seem sorry about it, he shouldn't be held up as some sort of role model to teenage boys by playing on a pitch in front of thousands of cheering fans after what he has done. I think if he had held his hands up, admitted his guilt and apologised, I would feel differently, but he hasn't. It sent the right message out that if a woman is not in a fit state for her to consent to sex, and a man carries on and has sex with her, then it's rape. He still protests his innocence, Dolls. He says the girl was drunk, but no more than he was, and consented. Although Judy Finningan got into a dreadful pickle with the language she used in this case - of course any rape is harmful - she did have something right by cautioning young women not to get absolutely hammered and invite men they don't know back to their bedroom. That isn't excusing rape, but it's a common sense safety issue. As a father of two girls, I hope to God they never put themselves in the position the girl in this case did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 The real clusterf*ck of the the CE case is how McDonald was acquitted and he was found guilty. I do wonder if both of them were found guilty he might have shown any sort of remorse? Dolls has probably summed it up for me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 The real clusterf*ck of the the CE case is how McDonald was acquitted and he was found guilty. I do wonder if both of them were found guilty he might have shown any sort of remorse? Dolls has probably summed it up for me though. And me. A petition started in Sheffield has been signed by over 150,000 people not wanting him back in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 He still protests his innocence, Dolls. He says the girl was drunk, but no more than he was, and consented. Although Judy Finningan got into a dreadful pickle with the language she used in this case - of course any rape is harmful - she did have something right by cautioning young women not to get absolutely hammered and invite men they don't know back to their bedroom. That isn't excusing rape, but it's a common sense safety issue. As a father of two girls, I hope to God they never put themselves in the position the girl in this case did! Most of them do. He a vile piece of filth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 He still protests his innocence, Dolls. He says the girl was drunk, but no more than he was, and consented. Although Judy Finningan got into a dreadful pickle with the language she used in this case - of course any rape is harmful - she did have something right by cautioning young women not to get absolutely hammered and invite men they don't know back to their bedroom. That isn't excusing rape, but it's a common sense safety issue. As a father of two girls, I hope to God they never put themselves in the position the girl in this case did! The original judgement is interesting because it now places some responsibility on the male as to whether the female is competent enough to give her consent. The trolling that followed her insensitive words was shocking and I hope that the perpetrators are prosecuted. However what she said and Richard Madeley's defence of his wife belied the fact that had this been their daughter, I am 100% sure they would not be making any distinction between degrees of rape and that's where the hypocrisy lies in this case. As for Evans his lack of remorse is perhaps sadly understandable, because he cannot see he has done anything wrong, which is worrying, the actual event was planned as some sort of gratuitous entertainment and was always going to be sleazy and degrading, but he has done his time and if any club decides to take him on that's there prerogative, he/they will have to accept the bad publicity and the abuse that follows, I cannot see this going away, ever. I just hope that footballers are never stupid enough to put themselves into similar positions, somehow I suspect that is a forlorn hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 This case makes me really angry. I don't understand why anyone has sympathy for him. A biased website he has made doesn't really do it for me neither does a gold digging girlfriend who doesn't care that he admits to cheating all the time(I'm sure if he was a bricky she would still be hanging around). A "do you know who I am" type bloke who can't pull thinks its acceptable to go "have a go" on a girl his mate has pulled. A girl who lets be fair was probably half asleep (being of a similar age I have seen a lot of drunk girls, my girlfriend included) who may seem game but as soon as their head hits the pillow they are gone. I doubt she would of even known he was in the room. The case between him and his mate are completely different. One of them at least engaged in conversation, the other has sex with a (as good as) passed out girl. Add to this that he still shows no remorse and probably thinks she should be more grateful because he's a footballer makes me think he doesn't deserve to have his privileged carrier back. IMO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 People make mistakes in life FACT. God knows I've made enough! However, there needs to be line. Convicted rapists and murderers amongst others should not be allowed to reap the being it's that professional football offers. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 People make mistakes in life FACT. God knows I've made enough! However, there needs to be line. Convicted rapists and murderers amongst others should not be allowed to reap the being it's that professional football offers. IMO. I agree. People who say he should be allowed back to work need to realise its not a regular job. What's he planning to do when he's 35? He should have to get a real job or be a coach or kit man if he has to stay in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Comparing Ian Holloway to a convicted rapist seems like incredibly bad taste to me. I also think it was out of place for Nick Clegg to put his oar in on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Comparing Ian Holloway to a convicted rapist seems like incredibly bad taste to me. I also think it was out of place for Nick Clegg to put his oar in on the matter. I'm amazed he could get his head out of Cameron's arse for that long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Comparing Ian Holloway to a convicted rapist seems like incredibly bad taste to me. I also think it was out of place for Nick Clegg to put his oar in on the matter. Think he was put on the spot at bit by LBC - but also he is an MP in a strong SUFC area so I guess his is more relevant than other MPs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Comparing Ian Holloway to a convicted rapist seems like incredibly bad taste to me. I also think it was out of place for Nick Clegg to put his oar in on the matter. I don't intend to read the whole thread so you will have to show me the post/posts that have sought to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Comparing Ian Holloway to a convicted rapist seems like incredibly bad taste to me. I also think it was out of place for Nick Clegg to put his oar in on the matter. It was two distinct questions posed by the OP, no comparisons have been drawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Comparing Ian Holloway to a convicted rapist seems like incredibly bad taste to me. I also think it was out of place for Nick Clegg to put his oar in on the matter. Who has said that..?! Most post on here that I've read clearly give their opinions on a convicted rapist (Evans) and then Holloway, completely seperately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I believe that Evans has the right to earn a living BUT I also believe he gave up the rights to a highly paid, priviliaged position when he raped a young woman. He should not be allowed to reap the rewards of modern day football again. He had his chance and threw it away in the worst possible fashion. Absolute nail on the head. Of course any criminal who gets released from prison deserves to be allowed to find employment and earn a living but that's not the same thing as saying that they must be allowed back into a profession if their behaviour has shown they're not suitable for it. If he was a teacher or a police officer or politician or even a TV star, nobody would be saying "we've got to give him a second chance as he deserves a right to earn a living"; they'd say his actions show he's not fit for the profession and he needs to find something more suitable. Ultimately you can't disconnect what happened that night with the fact that he felt that, as a rich high-profile footballer, he had a right to behave however he wanted around women - something borne out even more by that horror of a website where he's arrogantly decided to blatantly disregard the legal process where a jury of twelve people listen carefully and objectively to the detailed facts and deliberate over a decision and instead try to win a trial of public opinion where people see a few selective facts and guess the rest. The fact he's prepared to put that poor girl through the hell of her reputation being dragged through the mud yet again shows he's got absolutely no remorse or perspective about what happened or what he did wrong. The fact he's not aware of that means that,if you put him in the perspective of being a rich, high-profile footballer who feels he has a right to behave however he likes around women again, then there's every chance the same thing could occur. The man is not fit to be a professional footballer and I wish Sheffield United and other clubs would tell the man to take a hike and find a low-profile job where he can't do any damage. If there is an appeal and he is acquitted in retrospect - which I suspect is less likely than he seems to think - then he could come back to the game but frankly giving people a second chance does not mean the clock should be reset and they should automatically end up where they were before. The reality of course, as we all know, is that Sheffield United will sign him and, to our eternal shame, football fans will ultimately forgive anyone who scores goals on a regular basis for their club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Who has said that..?! Most post on here that I've read clearly give their opinions on a convicted rapist (Evans) and then Holloway, completely seperately. I'd have preferred it if the two questions had been raised in separate threads, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 There should not be a decision for Sheffield Inited, or any other club to make. This should be an FA, FIFA rulling. Those convicted of serious, life changing crimes, should not be privy to the rewards of professional sport. Would Sheffield Utd even contemplate taking him back if he'd scored 5 goals in 80 appearances..? NO, they would use it for a moral stance and take the opportunity to get rid of him. The fact he was a good player should make no difference. However good or bad he was/is should pale into insignificance against the fact that he is a convicted rapist. His lack of remorse is really quite sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Not sure about this case to be honest. She already agreed to go back to the hotel with his mate who she literally met for 5 seconds, had alcohol, cannabis and cocaine in her system and the hotel porter clearly heard male and female noises having sex. Is it really hard to imagine the dirty bastard asked to join in and she just said yes. If every bloke who has had sex with a drunk girl is a rapist then there are a lot of unconvicted rapists about every weekend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'd have preferred it if the two questions had been raised in separate threads, personally. The question posed was 'where should the line be drawn at BCFC' it was a perfectly fair question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I'd have preferred it if the two questions had been raised in separate threads, personally. But you would then lose the interesting juxtaposition between the two questions. Both involve characters that would, at first glace, be unpalatable were they to be involved with Bristol City but one is based around a footballing rivalry and the other somebody that has committed a despicable act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Not sure about this case to be honest. She already agreed to go back to the hotel with his mate who she literally met for 5 seconds, had alcohol, cannabis and cocaine in her system and the hotel porter clearly heard male and female noises having sex. Is it really hard to imagine the dirty bastard asked to join in and she just said yes. If every bloke who has had sex with a drunk girl is a rapist then there are a lot of in convicted rapists about every weekend! So are you saying that if the woman is passed out or so drunk she's fair game? and the guy doesn't need to actually make a decision as to whether his participation is acceptable?, only the female has that responsibility?. Crime is and has fallen but rape has gone up by 29% by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 So are you saying that if the woman is passed out or so drunk she's fair game? and the guy doesn't need to actually make a decision as to whether his participation is acceptable?, only the female has that responsibility?. Crime is and has fallen but rape has gone up by 29% by the way. She wasn't passed out, I watched the CCTV upon her arrival at the hotel and she was walking in and out unassisted. Not staggering etc. The porter heard her making sex noises after Evans arrived, bit tricky if she has passed out. I expect most blokes would stop at the point the woman says no etc. If he starts the process of having sex and she doesn't stop him then god knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 You've hit the nail on the head, Dolly. It's not just about doing the time, it's about what effect doing that time has had upon the offender. A prison sentence is only in part a punishment; it is also meant to rehabilitate and reform the offender. Evans has shown no evidence of remorse, hence his time in prison has not had the intended effect. For that reason, I don't believe that he should have been released having served just half of his sentence. Time off for "good behaviour" is not intended to be all about just being a model prisoner; it's intended that he will have learned his lesson in committing the crime in the first place. Unless Evans has shown remorse, I fail to see how he can possibly have learned any lesson other than "don't get caught". I would not want him at my club or at any club against which we might play. Perhaps he should seek a job as coach of a ladies football team; let's see how welcomed he is by them and how he responds. If only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 People make mistakes in life FACT. God knows I've made enough! However, there needs to be line. Convicted rapists and murderers amongst others should not be allowed to reap the being it's that professional football offers. IMO. Raping someone doesn't fall under the category of 'mistake' for me, else that suggests its one of life's lessons and you move on. Its bigger than that - its at the core of someone's being. If you're the sort of person who rapes then you ARE that person, its part of what defines you. You are a danger to the rest of society. A 'mistake' is a poor financial investment; an ill-thought comment; getting the wrong answers in your school homework. A mistake is a misjudgement that on reflection you might do differently next time. Well, firstly, he doesn't accept he did anything wrong so in his mind there is nothing to learn from, other than "mustn't get caught next time". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Hucker Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 She wasn't passed out, I watched the CCTV upon her arrival at the hotel and she was walking in and out unassisted. Not staggering etc. The porter heard her making sex noises after Evans arrived, bit tricky if she has passed out. I expect most blokes would stop at the point the woman says no etc. If he starts the process of having sex and she doesn't stop him then god knows. You're playing into the hands of Evans and his supporters by trying to re-examine "evidence" in a case which has already been carefully considered and decided by a judge and jury. I think that you and he should accept that he has made a big, shameful mistake. He should now truly apologise to the lady for his actions and only then can everyone begin to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Not sure about this case to be honest. She already agreed to go back to the hotel with his mate who she literally met for 5 seconds, had alcohol, cannabis and cocaine in her system and the hotel porter clearly heard male and female noises having sex. Is it really hard to imagine the dirty bastard asked to join in and she just said yes. If every bloke who has had sex with a drunk girl is a rapist then there are a lot of unconvicted rapists about every weekend! Whilst I get what you're saying in your last sentence, the sad truth is there almost certainly are a lot of unconvicted rapists about every weekend. Conviction rates are appallingly low and most cases boil down to one person's word against another. There's plenty of evidence to suggest only 15% of victims of rape actually even report it in the first place so feasibly there probably are a lot of men walking around who have had sex with a woman without consent at some point or other. The simple fact is that, whether or not she was quick to consent to sex with the first chap, and regardless of what substances she had taken, she has every right to decide whether or not she wanted to have sex with Evans too. The jury looked over the facts in detail and decided she had not consent. Given how bad conviction rates are, I feel fairly confident the jury will have had their reasons and speculation over what could have happened isn't really relevant. I don't think it's at all unfeasible there would be 'sex noises' if she wasn't fully conscious - people make noises in their sleep, most sex noises are automatic rather than deliberate reactions and clearly the body would respond to what was happened to it. It's not even impossible she wouldn't have immediately realised she was having sex with a different person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollymarie Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 If every bloke who has had sex with a drunk girl is a rapist then there are a lot of unconvicted rapists about every weekend! Jesus really? You've actually just typed that? The point of this case is that it highlights that if a man does not seek consent from a woman before initiating sex, or that if she is not in a fit state to give consent then IT IS RAPE, and a lot more men should thank god be aware of that now. You're right, that could mean that a lot of men have therefore committed rape, which is probably why the crime rate for rape has gone up, because men needed to realise that. As someone has tweeted today "If you rape a "pissed up slag" it's still rape" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Whilst I get what you're saying, the sad truth is there almost certainly are a lot of unconvicted rapists about every weekend. Conviction rates are appallingly low and most cases boil down to one person's word against another. There's plenty of evidence to suggest only 15% of victims of rape actually even report it in the first place so feasibly there probably are a lot of men walking around who have had sex with a woman without consent at some point or other. The simple fact is that, whether or not she was quick to consent to sex with the first chap, and regardless of what substances she had taken, she has every right to decide whether or not she wanted to have sex with Evans too. The jury looked over the facts in detail and decided she had not consent. Given how bad conviction rates are, I feel fairly confident the jury will have had their reasons and speculation over what could have happened isn't really relevant. I don't think it's at all unfeasible there would be 'sex noises' if she wasn't fully conscious - people make noises in their sleep, most sex noises are automatic rather than deliberate reactions and clearly the body would respond to what was happened to it. It's not even impossible she wouldn't have immediately realised she was having sex with a different person. She didn't actually report a rape apparently, she told the police she had her drink spiked (nothing in her system) and had lost her bag. The police opened the case. True though, will be alot of sex pests out there. You see em on club dancefloors at 3am just before closing. I guess I'm just putting together a character profile in my head. Takes drugs. Pisses in the street. Has sex with a complete stranger etc. Of course that doesn't mean she should be taken advantage of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Jesus really? You've actually just typed that? The point of this case is that it highlights that if a man does not seek consent from a woman before initiating sex, or that if she is not in a fit state to give consent then IT IS RAPE, and a lot more men should thank god be aware of that now. You're right, that could mean that a lot of men have therefore committed rape, which is probably why the crime rate for rape has gone up, because men needed to realise that. As someone has tweeted today "If you rape a "pissed up slag" it's still rape" I think its very hazy. If I try and have sex with my girlfriend after she's had a glass of wine or two, and she consents non verbally, I haven't raped her have I FFS. And everyone is different when they're drunk, who is to say a girl will consent and then simply change her mind? Also a hell of a lot of blokes will have been raped too then, if they're hammered and have sex with a drunk girl. Raping each other in your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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