Joe Bryan Turns Down Scotland

[Red-Robbo]

He was never eligible for the senior England team. The rules changed around 2009 - if by that time he had not played for Wales in a competitive game, he would then have been eligible for England, but not before. If you google 'Ryan Giggs eligible for England' one of the top matches is a BBC article explaining why (there are similar articles from the Guardian and goal.com)

Cheers for the explanation.

Of course on a general point, you should play only for the country of your or one of your parents' birth. Or if you'd spent the vast majority of your childhood there. Maybe exceptions can be made for people who are registered refugees etc.

This Irish/Scottish granny stuff is utter nonsense.

[Malago]

Cheers for the explanation.

Of course on a general point, you should play only for the country of your or one of your parents' birth. Or if you'd spent the vast majority of your childhood there. Maybe exceptions can be made for people who are registered refugees etc.

This Irish/Scottish granny stuff is utter nonsense.

I would go further. Your are only eligible for the country of your birth or through residency of at least 10 years. Where your parents were born should be an irrelevance.

[Red-Robbo]

I would go further. Your are only eligible for the country of your birth or through residency of at least 10 years. Where your parents were born should be an irrelevance.

Well you do have the occasional case where you happen to be born in some country you have no tie to through an accident of birth.

Take a mate if mine who was born to an RAF family. His place of birth was Aden, he grew up largely on bases in Germany and Cyprus but he's 100% English. We're he a sportsman, it would be ridiculous to make him represent Yemen.

[Red-Robbo]

dp

[North London Red]

Cheers for the explanation.

Of course on a general point, you should play only for the country of your or one of your parents' birth. Or if you'd spent the vast majority of your childhood there. Maybe exceptions can be made for people who are registered refugees etc.

This Irish/Scottish granny stuff is utter nonsense.

Totally agree. For me there are currently too many cases of players (and countries) taking advantage of the rules - and I agree with you, the rules at the moment are too lax. Diego Costa playing for Spain just doesn't seem right to me - and neither does the Brazilian who scored for Italy last week (which is a topic of debate in Italy right now). The possibility that Qatar could field a team of players born in Brazil for the 2022 World Cup also just seems wrong (imagine if it's Qatar v Brazil in the opening game and all 22 players were born in Brazil. I don't think it will come to that and it's an extreme 'what if' scenario, but it does illustrate the point).

You do get some interesting cases though. Terry Butcher was born in Singapore; Saido Berahino was born in Burundi (but has spent half his life in the UK and was brought through the ranks by an English club); Diego Poyet has played for England at youth level despite being born in Spain to Uruguayan parents and his father playing for Uruguay.

[Drew Peacock]

Well you do have the occasional case where you happen to be born in some country you have no tie to through an accident of birth.

Take a mate if mine who was born to an RAF family. His place of birth was Aden, he grew up largely on bases in Germany and Cyprus but he's 100% English. We're he a sportsman, it would be ridiculous to make him represent Yemen.

He would have been registered as a UK citizen and could have chosen which UK country to play for. That is how Darren Barnard got to play for Wales.

[joeyb]

Not true at all. In fact, you can line up for the FULL international side (if it's in a friendly) and still not be tied to that country.

As an example Owen Hargreaves could theoretically have played in full international friendlies for Canada, Wales and England and still not be tied to any of those countries.

 

Deigo Costa for Brazil/Spain more recently - played a few full 1st team international friendlies for Brazil then turned out for Spain in the WC

[Red-Robbo]

He would have been registered as a UK citizen and could have chosen which UK country to play for. That is how Darren Barnard got to play for Wales.

In the case of the guy I'm talking about both parents were from Norfolk, so it would've been ridiculous if the rules had allowed him to chose another UK nation.

But as NLR says above there is far too much bending of the rules going on. It should be a major issue.

[cottsciderarmy]

Well you do have the occasional case where you happen to be born in some country you have no tie to through an accident of birth.

Take a mate if mine who was born to an RAF family. His place of birth was Aden, he grew up largely on bases in Germany and Cyprus but he's 100% English. We're he a sportsman, it would be ridiculous to make him represent Yemen.

 

Although if he wasn't good enough for England, would he be adverse to be a star player for Yemen.

[ROSEBUD RED]

Both my parents were born in Bristol but I'd want to play for Australia instead of England.

It's just for me where you're born and where you grow up.

Both my parents were born in Bristol but I'd want to play for Australia instead of England.

It's just for me where you're born and where you grow up.

Hey Aus, where were you from in Oz?

[Red-Robbo]

Although if he wasn't good enough for England, would he be adverse to be a star player for Yemen.

I'm not sure anyone would want to be out there at the moment! Especially a whitey infidel!

[GrahamC]

His dad's from Doncaster according to Wikipedia, Gray.

Yep, you're right, I was wrong.

(Don't read that on here too often, do you?....)

[MichaelRobartes]

Cheers for the explanation.

Of course on a general point, you should play only for the country of your or one of your parents' birth. Or if you'd spent the vast majority of your childhood there. Maybe exceptions can be made for people who are registered refugees etc.

This Irish/Scottish granny stuff is utter nonsense.

 

Identity is about more than where you're from. I know some third-and fourth-generation Irish people in the UK who identify more with the Republic than with England or the UK. Sometimes it's a case of upbringing too.

 

I suspect that some of the third-generation lads who have togged out for the Republic (and Scotland) simply jumped at the chance to play international football, but that doesn't apply to all. I recall an interview with Liam Lawrence in the Irish Times a few years back where he told a story about Gary Breen almost beating the seven bells out of another player in the Sunderland dressing room for calling him a Plastic Paddy. Identities that you might think are ridiculous are very real for some people.

 

As I said, England have been doing a fair bit of 'naturalisation' themselves in other sports lately anyway. No blame to them, them's the rules.

[Red-Robbo]

Identity is about more than where you're from. I know some third-and fourth-generation Irish people in the UK who identify more with the Republic than with England or the UK. Sometimes it's a case of upbringing too.

I suspect that some of the third-generation lads who have togged out for the Republic (and Scotland) simply jumped at the chance to play international football, but that doesn't apply to all. I recall an interview with Liam Lawrence in the Irish Times a few years back where he told a story about Gary Breen almost beating the seven bells out of another player in the Sunderland dressing room for calling him a Plastic Paddy. Identities that you might think are ridiculous are very real for some people.

As I said, England have been doing a fair bit of 'naturalisation' themselves in other sports lately anyway. No blame to them, them's the rules.

I don't think Tony Cascarino was even third or fourth generation Irish. I think he just watched Val Doonican once, or something.

But that's besides the point, I don't approve of countries playing foreign nationals - even when it's England doing it.

[GrahamC]

I don't think Tony Cascarino was even third or fourth generation Irish. I think he just watched Val Doonican once, or something.

But that's besides the point, I don't approve of countries playing foreign nationals - even when it's England doing it.

Cascarino revealed in his autobiography that he "made up" an Irish grandparent and no one ever checked.

He played over 80 times for them, including in a World Cup and Euros and was never eligible.

Ireland (in football, not cricket) has consistently taken the piss over eligibility, including English, Scots and most controversially Northern Ireland born players, regularly stealing from the latter. They also still consider anyone with a grandparent born when it was a united country (but in Northern Ireland now) to be eligible for them....

My favourite recent one is Ipswich's David McGoldrick who is apparently eligible according to them because one of his adoptive parents is allegedly Irish, they'll include players on the grounds someone in their street has been to Dublin next, I swear.

[WessexPest]

This Irish/Scottish granny stuff is utter nonsense.

 

Agree with this 100%.

 

I call it the Rod Stewart Test. He was born in England, with an English mother, grew up in England and has spent most of his life in England (and LA) Yet somehow he's Scottish? Doesn't stack up. He may want, and consider himself to be Scottish, but that doesn't make it so. How can you be "from" a place you've never even lived in? He's from England. He has an English accent. Your accent indicates the culture you grew up and developed in.

 

With you all the way on fielding foreign nationals too. If you were born abroad and but grew up in England, and thereby were naturalised from an early age then that's fine. But that's different from being quasi-naturalised at a much later age (e.g. Almunia - I still remember bed-wetting Arsenal fans trying to shout me down as a racist on the BBC's Have Your Say page when I pointed this out re Almunia's possible eligibility for England).

[WessexPest]

Identity is about more than where you're from. I know some third-and fourth-generation Irish people in the UK who identify more with the Republic than with England or the UK. Sometimes it's a case of upbringing too.

 

I suspect that some of the third-generation lads who have togged out for the Republic (and Scotland) simply jumped at the chance to play international football, but that doesn't apply to all. I recall an interview with Liam Lawrence in the Irish Times a few years back where he told a story about Gary Breen almost beating the seven bells out of another player in the Sunderland dressing room for calling him a Plastic Paddy. Identities that you might think are ridiculous are very real for some people.

 

As I said, England have been doing a fair bit of 'naturalisation' themselves in other sports lately anyway. No blame to them, them's the rules.

 

Well, everyone is entitled to feel whatever nationality they wish - but that doesn't make it so.

 

Breen is guilty of a case of "the lady doth protest too much." He's English, whatever he regards himself to be. 

 

I think accent is a key component of people's identity. It's marker of the society and culture you grew up in, the norms you were exposed to in your formative years, the humour and linguistic patterns that have made your mind and view of the world what they are. It's much more than a way of just staying things. 

 

The England cricket team is a good example of us doing it too, unfortunately. With the exceptions of Wessels and Symonds, and maybe a few others, Australia have essentially picked 100% Australian teams (in terms of parents, birthplace, schooling, allegiance and cricket career) since the second World War, and before then too. I'm certain this has been a big factor in their enduring success. The England hierarchy, on the other hand, has been happy to recruit players from all over the world for decades. This may fall squarely within the rules, but it is bound to undermine team unity and cohesion.

[MichaelRobartes]

Well, everyone is entitled to feel whatever nationality they wish - but that doesn't make it so.

 

Breen is guilty of a case of "the lady doth protest too much." He's English, whatever he regards himself to be. 

 

I think accent is a key component of people's identity. It's marker of the society and culture you grew up in, the norms you were exposed to in your formative years, the humour and linguistic patterns that have made your mind and view of the world what they are. It's much more than a way of just staying things. 

 

The England cricket team is a good example of us doing it too, unfortunately. With the exceptions of Wessels and Symonds, and maybe a few others, Australia have essentially picked 100% Australian teams (in terms of parents, birthplace, schooling, allegiance and cricket career) since the second World War, and before then too. I'm certain this has been a big factor in their enduring success. The England hierarchy, on the other hand, has been happy to recruit players from all over the world for decades. This may fall squarely within the rules, but it is bound to undermine team unity and cohesion.

I respectfully disagree. Who is anyone else to tell you what you are (or are not). If your upbringing means that you identify more with one thing than another then why shouldn't you be able to express that? Especially when it falls within the rules (in the case of international eligibility).

As for accent, I know people who were born in Ireland to Irish parents who have English accents because they've lived here for most of their lives. Accent is not a reliable marker.

Cascarino revealed in his autobiography that he "made up" an Irish grandparent and no one ever checked.

He played over 80 times for them, including in a World Cup and Euros and was never eligible.

Ireland (in football, not cricket) has consistently taken the piss over eligibility, including English, Scots and most controversially Northern Ireland born players, regularly stealing from the latter. They also still consider anyone with a grandparent born when it was a united country (but in Northern Ireland now) to be eligible for them....

My favourite recent one is Ipswich's David McGoldrick who is apparently eligible according to them because one of his adoptive parents is allegedly Irish, they'll include players on the grounds someone in their street has been to Dublin next, I swear.

The Cascarino example was a joke, yes. Please don't mistake me, I'm not saying that the Republic have never selected players who have an, at best, tenuous link to the country, I'm just saying that it doesn't apply to all second- or third-generation Irish players that have togged out for us. I don't want to go into the politics of the Republic/Northern Ireland but why would a Nationalist want to play for Northern Ireland? Likewise why would a Unionist want to play for the Republic? Some do, no doubt, but they've always had the freedom to choose.

[WessexPest]

I respectfully disagree. Who is anyone else to tell you what you are (or are not). If your upbringing means that you identify more with one thing than another then why shouldn't you be able to express that? Especially when it falls within the rules (in the case of international eligibility).

As for accent, I know people who were born in Ireland to Irish parents who have English accents because they've lived here for most of their lives. Accent is not a reliable marker.

 

 

Accent is hugely relevant in signifying nationality and culture. If someone speaks in a broad Scottish / Irish / English accent, who can honestly regard them as anything other than Scottish / Irish / English, no matter what they may claim to be?

 

If the people you mention grew up in England, then that makes them English in my book. Some people bang on about being nationality X because it makes them "different" at home and attracts attention. Some people make a conscious effort not to be something when deep down they know that's what they really are (e.g. Rod Stewart).

 

As I said, anyone is entitled to feel whatever nationality they want. But the culture in which you grow up defines your identity, regardless of whether you want it to or not. 

[Chairman Mao]

I'd play for Tonga if I could