Paul Groves

[GrahamC]

See he is now running our Academy and has announced today that Shaun Brooks is our new U18 coach.

When did Groves' appointment happen then?

Did I miss it?

[spudski]

See he is now running our Academy and has announced today that Shaun Brooks is our new U18 coach.

When did Groves' appointment happen then?

Did I miss it?

Here mate...  http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/172138-long-term-good-news/

[GrahamC]

Cheers.

So reading that thread Groves' appointment hasn't been mentioned before by our shambolic media team and the rumour mill from Bournemouth doesn't exactly inspire confidence in either.

The only plus appears to be both of them are Cotterill's men so should cause no issues there.

[SuperRed]

Cheers.

So reading that thread Groves' appointment hasn't been mentioned before by our shambolic media team and the rumour mill from Bournemouth doesn't exactly inspire confidence in either.

The only plus appears to be both of them are Cotterill's men so should cause no issues there.

I would say the fact that there Cotterill's men is certainly not a plus. How about having an open and legitimate recruitment process for once. Not the same old bollocks of giving a mate a job. The first team manager should have zero influence over the recruitment of academy staff. It should be a separate entity that is unaffected by any changes to the first team manager. Remember the five pillars and how it was all going to change. Yet the people in charge are still making the same stupid mistakes that have held the club back for years. 

[RedRaw]

Cheers.

So reading that thread Groves' appointment hasn't been mentioned before by our shambolic media team 

 

so, you chose to completely ignore the link within the thread that showed the official news article about the groves appointment back in August.......just to have an unwarranted pop at the media team

[cidered abroad]

I would say the fact that there Cotterill's men is certainly not a plus. How about having an open and legitimate recruitment process for once. Not the same old bollocks of giving a mate a job. The first team manager should have zero influence over the recruitment of academy staff. It should be a separate entity that is unaffected by any changes to the first team manager. Remember the five pillars and how it was all going to change. Yet the people in charge are still making the same stupid mistakes that have held the club back for years. 

Totall agree that "jobs for my mates/family" is not the way to recruit for such an important post as Academy Manager. Nepotism reigned during the Johnson era resulting in quite a few disastrous signings.

Brooks has been a number two to Groves more than one occasion.

The old pals act triumphs again.

[Mad Cyril]

I am all for keeping it out of the media. Means Qpr have to find their own people.

[Guest redarmy1974]

I would say the fact that there Cotterill's men is certainly not a plus. How about having an open and legitimate recruitment process for once. Not the same old bollocks of giving a mate a job. The first team manager should have zero influence over the recruitment of academy staff. It should be a separate entity that is unaffected by any changes to the first team manager. Remember the five pillars and how it was all going to change. Yet the people in charge are still making the same stupid mistakes that have held the club back for years. 

Great post,Jobs for the boys again this will continue to happen because the hierarchy are lazy recruiters .

[Phileas Fogg]

Great post,Jobs for the boys again this will continue to happen because the hierarchy are lazy recruiters .

Hmm, doesn't sound good. How much influence did historical connections make in this appointment do you reckon?

[Guest redarmy1974]

Hmm, doesn't sound good. How much influence did historical connections make in this appointment do you reckon?

Historical connections certainly played a part,there are plenty of great young coaches out there who cant wait for a chance to prove themselves .

If I was looking at this from an outsiders view it looks to me like SC is surrounding himself with allies and not anybody who will go against the grain and rock the boat .

[Phileas Fogg]

Historical connections certainly played a part,there are plenty of great young coaches out there who cant wait for a chance to prove themselves .

If I was looking at this from an outsiders view it looks to me like SC is surrounding himself with allies and not anybody who will go against the grain and rock the boat .

That's what it looks like to me as well, especially if there has been disagreement at the club this summer.

[spudski]

Historical connections certainly played a part,there are plenty of great young coaches out there who cant wait for a chance to prove themselves .

If I was looking at this from an outsiders view it looks to me like SC is surrounding himself with allies and not anybody who will go against the grain and rock the boat .

This also crossed my mind....closing ranks.

 

[Guest redarmy1974]

The more of his people are at the club the more support and yes men are around him .

[Guest redarmy1974]

The only good coach that is here at the moment is Trev challis and he is with the u16s,just does not make sense ex premiership player nowhere near the first team or 21s .

I am really surprised he has stuck it out so long, looks like Dave horseman knew what was coming that's why he buggered off to Watford .

[spudski]

The more of his people are at the club the more support and yes men are around him .

With Carlos and Pelling leaving, and SC getting his 'mates' in, it's starting to look like one man is running this club...owning it like a boss.

It's almost like all the 'big boys' have their head in the clouds, being distracted by their new 'Castle' being built.

Do we never learn?

 

[RedJim]

With Carlos and Pelling leaving, and SC getting his 'mates' in, it's starting to look like one man is running this club...owning it like a boss.

It's almost like all the 'big boys' have their head in the clouds, being distracted by their new 'Castle' being built.

Do we never learn?

 

Just like under Johnson then. Amateur as usual from the BCFC hierarchy.

[Guest redarmy1974]

We will never learn because the guys SC is bring in are the cheap option and will only say YES .

[Phileas Fogg]

The only good coach that is here at the moment is Trev challis and he is with the u16s,just does not make sense ex premiership player nowhere near the first team or 21s .

I am really surprised he has stuck it out so long, looks like Dave horseman knew what was coming that's why he buggered off to Watford .

How's Wade Elliot getting on? Early days of course.

[RedJim]

Why is the thinking at City always so short term? Managers come and go, it makes absolutely no sense to let the manager dictate everything. What happens if we're bottom at Christmas and Cotterill gets the boot? Another load of people to pay off. It's so short-sighted it's laughable.

[Guest redarmy1974]

This is what old school managers do! they surround themselves with familiar faces so they have support when its going wrong and it also costs the board alot of money to get rid of a team of personnel .

All this is thought about when getting rid of Managers by the board .

[Guest redarmy1974]

How's Wade Elliot getting on? Early days of course.

Wade Elliot is doing fantastic from what I hear from alot of people,He has the boys playing well plus the lads are enjoying turning up to the club for a change .

[Guest]

Not sure if I am that concerned about SC 'giving a job to the boys' if I am honest - if that is what has taken place. He's got a great CV and worked with a number of different people so I will absolutely cede to his view of the best man for the role. And anyway, his Filofax has probably has some fantastic candidates in there given where he has worked before and how long he has been in football. If these guys received phonecalls or piqued SC's interest, or received a reference from him I'll trust SC over a few Bmouth twitter posts... - just like we ought to have done re Forests' views on SC.  There's another man in this story too, Keith Burt who is our Director of Football.

I also think it is more than a little disingenuous to suggest SC would give a job to someone he thinks is not the best candidate. Remember it was only a few months ago that he told his long-term stalwart midfielder and presumably good fried 'it's fine if you want to play football, but you'll have to do it somewhere else and that's my final decision'.... now that doesn't really sound at all like a 'job for the boys' bloke does it? Before anyone suggests ah but Wade did get a job, he was quite willing to shift him on and the appointment was roundly considered very astute.

Yes there is a danger of people becoming engrained or integral to the club but I find it a reasonable risk considering the benefits: lines of communication, clear message and focus, knowing some of their personality traits - adaptability, versatility reliability etc.

And anyway I'm not really sure how you avoid 'jobs for the boys' that easily considering what a small world (and complete closed shop) football is. Chances are someone, somewhere in the club has a link with any prospective employee.

[Steve Watts]

 

This is what old school managers do! they surround themselves with familiar faces so they have support when its going wrong and it also costs the board alot of money to get rid of a team of personnel .

All this is thought about when getting rid of Managers by the board .

I cannot think for a second that Cotts would do this. For no other reason than the fact that it would suggest that he thinks he may fail.  I don't think making it more difficult (or expensive) to sack him would enter his head because he never thinks he would ever be doing badly enought to be sacked.  It's that arrogance that causes dislike for him in the football community.  It's also an arrogance that helped inspire our record breaking season last year, so I won't criticise him for that too much just yet!

It could of course just be that he knows how these guys work, they were available and he trusts them, their judgment and their methods and he therefore thinks that they would be both a lower risk and beneficial appointments.

He's not proven himself too far wrong with many of his appointments or signings so far, so let's give them a chance to fail before we simply write it off as jobs for the boys.

[Guest]

This is what old school managers do! they surround themselves with familiar faces so they have support when its going wrong

So is this a negative? I'd argue that it is very much so a positive. A supporting team working in one direction sounds much better than a potentially fractured one when/if the chips are down.

and it also costs the board alot of money to get rid of a team of personnel .

I'm not so sure that this must be the case. For starters coaches aren't that remarkably well paid and I'm not sure that they are generally on fixed term contracts (which get paid up) like managers.  I certainly wouldn't expect so at Academy level. In any case a board could quite easily insert a clause about changes in management team if necessary, and finally these aren't new guys on the payroll, they have filled vacancies.

All this is thought about when getting rid of Managers by the board .

Anyway are we always better off going outside of the manager's Filofax? Remember Steve Wigley? 

 

[Major Isewater]

Anyway are we always better off going outside of the manager's Filofax? Remember Steve Wigley? 

 

i'm sure there are people reading this thread who have No idea what a filofax is .

It's a cousin of the Pterradactyl , flying dinosaur and ancestor of the Birds , who had a hit with Hey Mr Tambourine Man .

[SuperRed]

 "This is what old school managers do! they surround themselves with familiar faces so they have support when its going wrong"

"So is this a negative? I'd argue that it is very much so a positive. A supporting team working in one direction sounds much better than a potentially fractured one when/if the chips are down."

 

It's more understandable that at first team level the manager will appoint someone he has worked with before as his assistant as he's working closely with that person day-to-day . But the manager is not working with the academy and it should be complete out of his influence. Otherwise there is no continuity within it and you'll end up with a "really good friend" of his being handed the post, and then that "really good friend" handing his "really good friend" a post.  

[spudski]

Not sure if I am that concerned about SC 'giving a job to the boys' if I am honest - if that is what has taken place. He's got a great CV and worked with a number of different people so I will absolutely cede to his view of the best man for the role. And anyway, his Filofax has probably has some fantastic candidates in there given where he has worked before and how long he has been in football. If these guys received phonecalls or piqued SC's interest, or received a reference from him I'll trust SC over a few Bmouth twitter posts... - just like we ought to have done re Forests' views on SC.  There's another man in this story too, Keith Burt who is our Director of Football.

I also think it is more than a little disingenuous to suggest SC would give a job to someone he thinks is not the best candidate. Remember it was only a few months ago that he told his long-term stalwart midfielder and presumably good fried 'it's fine if you want to play football, but you'll have to do it somewhere else and that's my final decision'.... now that doesn't really sound at all like a 'job for the boys' bloke does it? Before anyone suggests ah but Wade did get a job, he was quite willing to shift him on and the appointment was roundly considered very astute.

Yes there is a danger of people becoming engrained or integral to the club but I find it a reasonable risk considering the benefits: lines of communication, clear message and focus, knowing some of their personality traits - adaptability, versatility reliability etc.

And anyway I'm not really sure how you avoid 'jobs for the boys' that easily considering what a small world (and complete closed shop) football is. Chances are someone, somewhere in the club has a link with any prospective employee.

Do you seriously think this is a good thing....having one man dictate who all the coaching staff are in the Academy?

Managers come and go....where is the long term future?

This...imho...is not a good idea. Before you know it...you have a dictatorship. One man shouldn't be controlling the whole of the Clubs playing structure.

Just goes to show we have no 'Football people' in control here...just businessman playing at being football Club owners.

As an example....you only have to look at what Moyes did when he moved into Man Utd....brought in all 'his' staff....from the moment he did that, all the coach's said he would fail...as it alienates you as them and us.

[Robin1988]

SOD may not have got many things right but one thing he did was the whole 'head coach' concept. Cotterill should fit the club, not the club fit Cotterill. Surrounding himself with people implementing his ideals does not fit that approach.

[Steve Watts]

SOD may not have got many things right but one thing he did was the whole 'head coach' concept. Cotterill should fit the club, not the club fit Cotterill. Surrounding himself with people implementing his ideals does not fit that approach.

But by the club appointing Cotterill you would infer that he fits the club and therefore by default the decisions and appointments made would also fit the club.  The ideas that he implements would be ideas that the club agree with and therefore having others that he trusts implement them also is surely a good thing?

[Robin1988]

But by the club appointing Cotterill you would infer that he fits the club and therefore by default the decisions and appointments made would also fit the club.  The ideas that he implements would be ideas that the club agree with and therefore having others that he trusts implement them also is surely a good thing?

It could be the case. But will Groves and the other fella be here after Cotterill is gone so someone can seamlessly slip into the role? I doubt it.

[Steve Watts]

It could be the case. But will Groves and the other fella be here after Cotterill is gone so someone can seamlessly slip into the role? I doubt it.

Many may have thought that about Pemberton....

The manager has to trust those people who work for him or who helps develop the players that ultimately may come under his full control, so whether or not they stay will be wholly down to whoever ultimately replaces Cotterill whenever the time comes.

[Guest]

Do you seriously think this is a good thing....having one man dictate who all the coaching staff are in the Academy?

Managers come and go....where is the long term future?

This...imho...is not a good idea. Before you know it...you have a dictatorship. One man shouldn't be controlling the whole of the Clubs playing structure.

Just goes to show we have no 'Football people' in control here...just businessman playing at being football Club owners.

As an example....you only have to look at what Moyes did when he moved into Man Utd....brought in all 'his' staff....from the moment he did that, all the coach's said he would fail...as it alienates you as them and us.

Honestly, I don't think it a bad thing. I don't think we have a dictatorship - we have a fella acting with the authority of the board: a very different thing. Remember the fractious interviews about transfer policy and hints from SC about disagreements from above, even just our summer transfer window.... I'm not at all convinced that the board are pandering to his every whim. What is it, two weeks since people were worrying SC may walk?!

SC is the one footballing man the club have entrusted with its most precious - the first team. If we're talking about a dictatorship is that not 'Football people' in control? What's KB's role in this anyway and why is that ignored? Frankly if he's not ultimate say on appointments to the academy what the hell is the remit of a DoF?

Besides, as much as we may want to protect against it it is absolutely typical that any new incoming manager will expect to bring their own backroom staff. I actually support that also to give them the best chance of integrating, settling and hitting the ground running. Perhaps not necessarily needed at Academy level but as a general evil I think its a losing battle anyway.

 

[Lew-T]

Another chance to have a dig at the bloke. I think he's earnt his right to have our respect and patience with last season's achievements.

It's still only September...

[Phileas Fogg]

Another chance to have a dig at the bloke. I think he's earnt his right to have our respect and patience with last season's achievements.

It's still only September...

The point being made by most is that the academy should be a separate entity to the first team to provide continuity if there's a manager change.

People are uneasy with the first team manager seemingly having influence over big appointments at the club when in theory he could go at any time. 

[screech]

So you are all assuming it was Steve Cotterill that appointed him then, on what evidence?

[RedRaw]

Great post,Jobs for the boys again this will continue to happen because the hierarchy are lazy recruiters .

 

We will never learn because the guys SC is bring in are the cheap option and will only say YES .

 

Wade Elliot is doing fantastic from what I hear from alot of people,He has the boys playing well plus the lads are enjoying turning up to the club for a change .

So, offering a "job for the boys" to old mate Wade when he brought him in on loan helped us stave off relegation, offering Wade a 1 year contract and making him captain helped us win the double, offering Wade the role with the U21s appears to be working out fine at the moment.............sort of blows your conspiracy theories right out the window

All managers would prefer to bring in their own people.....however, Burt was already here as DOF and SC was happy for John pemberton to continue as head coach.

So other than maybe Groves, (Brookes more than likely being recommended by Groves) who else has the wicked SC brought into the club to "build his empire"  and surround himself with "yes" men?

If this would have happend during last season, nobody would have batted an eyelid

 

['Orns]

 

 

 

Don't waste your time RR - as Tyler Swift said, haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate

My daughters would be so proud of me, quoting the great one on OTIB

Edit - there's a glitch here, I was going to reply to Lew earlier saying pretty much the same thing, but never got round to it - but when I replied to Red Raw I couldn't delete the original comment, despite me closing down the site and coming back on....anyone else getting this?

[Major Isewater]

 

Don't waste your time RR - as Tyler Swift said, haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate

My daughters would be so proud of me, quoting the great one on OTIB

Edit - there's a glitch here, I was going to reply to Lew earlier saying pretty much the same thing, but never got round to it - but when I replied to Red Raw I couldn't delete the original comment, despite me closing down the site and coming back on....anyone else getting this?

The alledged singer is going to sponsor 45 mins of football at Ashton Gate , the Swift Half.

[Drew Peacock]

 

Don't waste your time RR - as Tyler Swift said, haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate

My daughters would be so proud of me, quoting the great one on OTIB

Edit - there's a glitch here, I was going to reply to Lew earlier saying pretty much the same thing, but never got round to it - but when I replied to Red Raw I couldn't delete the original comment, despite me closing down the site and coming back on....anyone else getting this?

On my mobile phone, yes. Not on the laptop.

['Orns]

On my mobile phone, yes. Not on the laptop.

This was done from my laptop....not noticed it on my phone as yet

[RedJim]

Another chance to have a dig at the bloke. I think he's earnt his right to have our respect and patience with last season's achievements.

It's still only September...

I'm certainly not blaming SC, he's within his rights to bring in who he wants. I think it's naive from our board to let the manager dictate the whole setup down to the youngsters. What if SC gets fired or resigns? We're back to square one again. It's short-sighted and I'm frustrated that we never seem to learn lessons at this club.

[RedRaw]

I'm certainly not blaming SC, he's within his rights to bring in who he wants. I think it's naive from our board to let the manager dictate the whole setup down to the youngsters. What if SC gets fired or resigns? We're back to square one again. It's short-sighted and I'm frustrated that we never seem to learn lessons at this club.

Your making a massive assumption that SC instigated or was even involved in this recruitment process.....yes, they're paths have crossed in the past but please show me the evidence that SC dictated who we sack or sign up the the acadamy coaching staff.

[GrahamC]

so, you chose to completely ignore the link within the thread that showed the official news article about the groves appointment back in August.......just to have an unwarranted pop at the media team

Be interested to see where that is then.

I've not seen a single interview with him and having looked back through the news section up until when it was announced Carlos Anton was leaving, I can't find this article, only a mention of him yesterday re Shaun Brooks.

As previously stated the website coverage of the Academy is shite, with no features on the youngsters and minimal information.

[spudski]

Half the arguments on this forum, are down to people not having a clue as to who does what at this Club.

Not their problem...as the Club put very little detailed information out their.

Unless you know people who work their or are connected to the Club...then most won't have a clue....which is a shame...but I'm sure that's how the Club want it.

I think Graham C has a very valid point...the website for both BCFC and the Academy are shocking.

 

[Guest]

 "This is what old school managers do! they surround themselves with familiar faces so they have support when its going wrong"

"So is this a negative? I'd argue that it is very much so a positive. A supporting team working in one direction sounds much better than a potentially fractured one when/if the chips are down."

 

It's more understandable that at first team level the manager will appoint someone he has worked with before as his assistant as he's working closely with that person day-to-day . But the manager is not working with the academy and it should be complete out of his influence. Otherwise there is no continuity within it and you'll end up with a "really good friend" of his being handed the post, and then that "really good friend" handing his "really good friend" a post.  

Fair points, but in my opinion the academy exists to serve the club and the manager. It should absolutely be within his remit because if it doesn't serve his needs and purposes then the cycle of releasing youngsters is inevitable. Again, what is KBs role? If it is job for mates is the problem not at his door than anyone else's? 

I understand the point about continuity. Obviously in an ideal world, but for me football doesn't exist within that and whilst we're that far away from a tier 1 club (reputationally I mean) we should never be appointing someone based on continuity. I say this because if we feel they'll stay long term they are possibly unambitious or possibly not of the requisite quality. Just as risky as 'jobs for mates'? Maybe. 

In any case I'm not sure right now turnover of staff is a problem. Bristol is cushty, the club is stable and whilst ambitious, unorganised. It's been bloody easy to coast  at this club and use it to top up a pension for not much sweat. Until we can rid this mentality I see more dangers in someone being part of the furniture than otherwise. Sure that may change if our club can prevent this from happening  

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't advocate PJ coming in as chief scout as an example, but these are football men being brought in. I think job for mates is a presumption and I think given the way SC has handled himself, released players, only brought in a couple of appointments during his whole time here, it's a damn unfair presumption and equally unfair to use it as a sword. 

[bristolcitysweden]

A pity with Carlos Anton. I had hoped the club had a long term plan for him to one day become the new manager following "the Swansea track". Disappointing.

[PHILINFRANCE]

Apologies if it was, indeed, mentioned by the club, but I don't recall ever reading officially that Carlos Anton has left.

Can anybody provide a link to the official announcement and/or explain why he left?

Thanks.

[PHILINFRANCE]

http://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/article/anton-leaves-by-mutual-consent-2625866.aspx

Just put anton in the search box on the official site.

 

Thanks for that - another one 'by mutual consent'.

[Chivs]

What I can't understand is why a very successful business man like Steve Lansdown allows this "jobs for the boys" mentality to exist at BCFC.

I mean it's not as if he gives jobs to family members.....oh wait......