Conservative Party Conference

[marshy]

1).The state has a massive role in China. It's still ruled by the Chinese Communist Party as the sole party of government.

2).Most of those "entrepreneurial" billionaire's of which you speak, are - in fact - current or former state officials, all tied into a very tidy position of kick-backs and bribes with other serving state officials.

3).It is in fact the very definition of what Socialists call a "state capitalist" society - as indeed it was under Mao.And is still a very "dark time" for those employed in the various sweatshops in its hideously polluted cities.

4).Thatcher famously had Stevie Wonder's eyes for history. Had she known a bit more than her "collective saloon bar wisdom" view of economics and culture she would have realised that the period of greatest prosperity arrived when you did make the rich relatively poorer to the rest of society via progressive taxation and social welfare programmes - the 20th century. Hitherto - in poorer times - the rich were relatively better off than they are today. Crassus - a contemporary of Julius Caesar - for example, was said to have a wealth equal to the entire GDP of the Roman Republic, perhaps equivalent to saying someone owned the $18tn - the US's GDP.

 

1). No-one can deny that Robbo but it's not really the point. The point I was making is that resources are being allocated more efficiently now that they are market led rather than directed by some bureaucrat sitting in an office in Beijing. Under Mao when the state directed that all available resources were to be put into producing steel it caused the greatest famine in world history.

2). I think you are way off the mark with this comment. A quick look at the Forbes rich list will show that most of them are self-made in fields such as e-commerce and other internet related activities and many quite young and from quite humble backgrounds. Some on their third or fourth venture before eventually making it big.

3). A 'dark time' for many obviously but nothing compared to life under Mao when you read his biography and accounts of those who lived through those times. Sweatshops certainly but but it is unrealistic to think that you can project a primitive agrarian society into a modern one in one huge leap. 

4).Well what can I say when I have Crassus thrown at me? Was he in any way related to Croesus? He was quite well off I believe. It is quite right that we have progressive taxation to help the disadvantaged but the argument as to how much you soak the rich is ongoing I suppose. The top 1% already pay 30% apparently so at what point do you stop before they all bugger off to the Channel Islands ?

[Red-Robbo]

1). No-one can deny that Robbo but it's not really the point. The point I was making is that resources are being allocated more efficiently now that they are market led rather than directed by some bureaucrat sitting in an office in Beijing. Under Mao when the state directed that all available resources were to be put into producing steel it caused the greatest famine in world history.

2). I think you are way off the mark with this comment. A quick look at the Forbes rich list will show that most of them are self-made in fields such as e-commerce and other internet related activities and many quite young and from quite humble backgrounds. Some on their third or fourth venture before eventually making it big.

3). A 'dark time' for many obviously but nothing compared to life under Mao when you read his biography and accounts of those who lived through those times. Sweatshops certainly but but it is unrealistic to think that you can project a primitive agrarian society into a modern one in one huge leap. 

4).Well what can I say when I have Crassus thrown at me? Was he in any way related to Croesus? He was quite well off I believe. It is quite right that we have progressive taxation to help the disadvantaged but the argument as to how much you soak the rich is ongoing I suppose. The top 1% already pay 30% apparently so at what point do you stop before they all bugger off to the Channel Islands ?

Croessus was a different rich bloke, Marshy. Crassus incidentally gave his name to the word "crass" - an adjective oft applied to Mrs T's fun-loving "entrepreneurial" son Mark!

I think what you miss with China is that the billionaires (and the sweatshops) were part of the same phenomenon - the move from an agrarian society to an industrial one. From Deng Xioping (sp?) onwards, Mao's vision of an agrarian "paradise" was abandoned and reforms brought in which encouraged the process we had in this country in the 18th and 19th century - including the creation of stock exchanges. You've seen the same process in other Eastern states. China's sheer size makes it significant.

I think you are downplaying the role of corrupt officialdom in the creation of these new Communist (nearly all are party members) billionaires. Many more had significantly better links to the levers of powers than their Forbes Magazine CVs suggest. The same way that used tyre trader Roman Abramovich was able to go from a Moscow street market to owning half of Russia's oil and gas industry in three years. Boy, was he entrepreneurial!

In answer to your last question: you close these offshore loopholes of course. They exist by the grace of the state, because so many of "the establishment" benefit from this cosy arrangement. 99.9% of us taxpayers do not benefit.

 

[PS: good discussion this!]

 

[The Gasbuster]

Oh how I would love to see Jeremy Corbyn and Labour take over in 2020. Cant see it but sure it would wipe the smug looks off all those arrogant Tory scum faces.

So people who have a different political view to you; are automatically classed as "scum" ?

[Sixtyseconds]

Ozzers on again...

"As a British patriot I am proud of our record of selling off all public utilities to Foreign states and investors. Today I am all warm inside as I announce we are awarding yet another hundred billion contract the Chinese to run the NHS, God save the Queen and work harder .."

[BCFC Jimmer]

So people who have a different political view to you; are automatically classed as "scum" ?

I think that a lot of middle class people who voted Conservative have been 'duped'.  What kind of person who knew the full facts would vote for a government that supports such an unethical economy.  An economy has put many of the great things about this country in jeopardy.

The rich toffs who fund and support the party I reserve most of my disgust for. But 'Scum' is a strong word.

You do like to avoid the key issues GB. IamNick put together a really good post on the overall picture, but you just seem to keep nit picking.

[The Gasbuster]

Hard to disagree with that as you well know!

Your choice of language is just amusing in the original post, putting it down to leftie socialists and their "usual" tactics. One minute they're all lily livered limp wristsed lefties and the next they're rent a thug egg throwing monsters scaring the poor honest tories. If it were the other way around it would be our brave boys standing up for Britain in the face of encroaching Corbyn inspired communism or some such rhetoric.

Because he "hates Britain", whatever that means.

Unlike the tories who love Britain so much they've sold off/dismantled the more embarrassing and unbritish parts of our society like the NHS, the tunnel, our welfare system, our schools, the royal mail, and even had a go at selling off our forests (making a fair amount of cash in the process of each). Truely they love what makes people proud to be British. A few headlines about Corbyn hating "our troops" and an imagination hamas/hezbollah love-in and it's all forgotten though as the boys in blue come to save the day and remind us that an honest days work will leave us with a smile on our faces and £1000 less in our pockets each year. Apparently loving Britain is sinking it's poorest further into poverty and squeezing the middle class to breaking point.

In some ways I can understand why these people are angry at them now I come to think of it.

Not sure I said anything about "lily livered limp wristed lefties" ?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I think that a lot of middle class people who voted Conservative have been 'duped'.  What kind of person who knew the full facts would vote for a government that supports such an unethical economy.  An economy has put many of the great things about this country in jeopardy.

The rich toffs who fund and support the party I reserve most of my disgust for. But 'Scum' is a strong word.

You do like to avoid the key issues GB. IamNick put together a really good post on the overall picture, but you just seem to keep nit picking.

it's the middle class that Corbyn's policies will hit most and they will see that.

But it's good to see you pushing labours key policy of the past 5 years, we hate the tories, that'll work.

[Cowshed]

The right honourable PM's comments about Corbyn were the most pathetic, vindictive and blown entirely out of context I think I have ever heard from somebody who is supposedly educated and intelligent.

I expect this heralds the current government's tactic will be to repeat lies enough times, backed up their tax avoiding supporters in the media until it is considered to be true by a vast number of British voters.

A politics of smear, and lies.

''Thousands of words have been written about the new Labour leader. But you only really need to know one thing: he thinks the death of Osama bin Laden was a 'tragedy'.

One word out of context turned into a lie.

What was said:

"In the segment, Corbyn asks why President Barack Obama sanctioned the bin Laden’s burial at sea, noting it would fuel conspiracy theories. He also questioned why there was no effort to place the terror leader in the dock. It has to be “law, not war,” said Corbyn.

“There was no attempt whatsoever that I can see to arrest him, to put him on trial, to go through that process," he said. "This was an assassination attempt, and is yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy."

Corbyn continued: “The World Trade Center was a tragedy, the attack on Afghanistan was a tragedy, the war in Iraq was a tragedy. Tens of thousands of people have died. Torture has come back on to the world stage, been canonised virtually into law by Guantanamo and Bagram. Can't we learn some lessons from this? That we are just going to descend deeper and deeper."

[Esmond Million's Bung]

The right honourable PM's comments about Corbyn were the most pathetic, vindictive and blown entirely out of context I think I have ever heard from somebody who is supposedly educated and intelligent.

I expect this heralds the current government's tactic will be to repeat lies enough times, backed up their tax avoiding supporters in the media until it is considered to be true by a vast number of British voters.

A politics of smear, and lies.

''Thousands of words have been written about the new Labour leader. But you only really need to know one thing: he thinks the death of Osama bin Laden was a 'tragedy'.

One word out of context turned into a lie.

What was said:

"In the segment, Corbyn asks why President Barack Obama sanctioned the bin Laden’s burial at sea, noting it would fuel conspiracy theories. He also questioned why there was no effort to place the terror leader in the dock. It has to be “law, not war,” said Corbyn.

“There was no attempt whatsoever that I can see to arrest him, to put him on trial, to go through that process," he said. "This was an assassination attempt, and is yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy."

Corbyn continued: “The World Trade Center was a tragedy, the attack on Afghanistan was a tragedy, the war in Iraq was a tragedy. Tens of thousands of people have died. Torture has come back on to the world stage, been canonised virtually into law by Guantanamo and Bagram. Can't we learn some lessons from this? That we are just going to descend deeper and deeper."

All of these highlighted portions need to be levelled at Tony Blair and his new labour, many of whom are still MP's and voted in favour of these actions and turned a blind eye too many others, let's start with Auntie Harriet, who after enthusiastically applauding Ed when he said the war in Iraq was wrong, had to be reminded that by the other Miliband brother "why are you applauding you voted for it?". Her justification was i'm showing support to our new leader, well she's really good at that and with little or no conscience.

and let us not forget the trial and execution of Saddam Hussein, is that the sort of justice Corbyn is talking about?.

 

[Cowshed]

All of these highlighted portions need to be levelled at .. David Cameron as a ten second google search exposes what he said as clear distortion and lying.

Bin Laden did not face trial. That could be looked upon as a tragedy. A trial may have provided some answers for victims. For the PM to twist that for his personal political gain is deplorable.

[BCFC Jimmer]

it's the middle class that Corbyn's policies will hit most and they will see that.

But it's good to see you pushing labours key policy of the past 5 years, we hate the tories, that'll work.

Not at all.  I have tried to engage with people on here over the benefits of a more social government but nobody seems interested. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

 

Not at all.  I have tried to engage with people on here over the benefits of a more social government but nobody seems interested. 

Yes I found your scum comment very engaging.

PS:- Perhaps you need to pay a little more attention, you misguidedly attacked Aizoon, he's actually one of you.

[One BCFC]

So people who have a different political view to you; are automatically classed as "scum" ?

No. I apply the word scum to Tory MPs not the deluded voters of theirs.

[Kid in the Riot]

 

The right honourable PM's comments about Corbyn were the most pathetic, vindictive and blown entirely out of context I think I have ever heard from somebody who is supposedly educated and intelligent.

What do you expect from a cocaine-snorting pig-f***er?

[The Bard]

 

What do you expect from a cocaine-snorting pig-f***er?

On that theme, I just saw this video by the genius cartoonist Steve Bell about how history will judge David Cameron.  

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/oct/08/steve-bell-cameron-legacy-dave-who-put-his-cock-in-a-pig-video

I reckon he'd been on the old Colombian marching powder looking at the video..

[BCFC Jimmer]

 

Yes I found your scum comment very engaging.

PS:- Perhaps you need to pay a little more attention, you misguidedly attacked Aizoon, he's actually one of you.

 

Where did I call anyone scum in this thread?  I outlined a fundamental economic reason why I sway to the left in Post 6 and nobody engaged.

P.s I am not going to accept that I was misguided by a man that pretends to be a hedgehog on an internet message board.

[Kid in the Riot]

Nice to see the Leftie rent a mob that Corbyn told to refrain from abuse heeded his words

More goons with their socialist wanchors party placards, and  anarch - ***** outside of the conference than ever before. The usual intimidation, attempted attacks on the police, plus egg throwing has taken place this week, all committed by the fascist left.

Then THEY have the audacity to shout "shame on you" to anybody walking out. 

You couldn't make this shit up, either !

Yeah all those goons protesting...those highly educated doctors, nurses, teachers...bloody goons we don't need 'em! What do they know!

[The Gasbuster]

Yeah all those goons protesting...those highly educated doctors, nurses, teachers...bloody goons we don't need 'em! What do they know!

Yeah, all those brave souls who threaten, abuse and spit, all from behind the safety of their hoodies and those crappy "anonymous" masks !

All those lovely people who have to resort to these tactics because they don't believe in democracy, just want to impose their way of life by using violence and intimidation. Always looking for an opportunity to fight with police and smash things up - all because others have a different viewpoint from them - those jolly souls !

I suggest you read my posts above, 23 & 29.

[BCFC Jimmer]

Clearly a minority out of thousands of protesters though!  Once again, no perspective at all.

 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

Yeah, all those brave souls who threaten, abuse and spit, all from behind the safety of their hoodies and those crappy "anonymous" masks !

All those lovely people who have to resort to these tactics because they don't believe in democracy, just want to impose their way of life by using violence and intimidation. Always looking for an opportunity to fight with police and smash things up - all because others have a different viewpoint from them - those jolly souls !

I suggest you read my posts above, 23 & 29.

You can choose to amplify the actions of the minority all you want. It's the majority I'm concerned with - are you happy that doctors, nurses, teachers etc feel they have to protest/strike because of the current government? I suppose junior doctors are just lazy, jobsworth, hooligan, benefit scroungers like the rest of 'em! The Daily Mail has clearly swallowed you up, and it'll spit you out one day...

[The Gasbuster]

You can choose to amplify the actions of the minority all you want. It's the majority I'm concerned with - are you happy that doctors, nurses, teachers etc feel they have to protest/strike because of the current government? I suppose junior doctors are just lazy, jobsworth, hooligan, benefit scroungers like the rest of 'em! The Daily Mail has clearly swallowed you up, and it'll spit you out one day...

I have never read the Daily Mail in my life. Not that it makes any difference to anything. Many people in this country are intelligent enough to form their own opinions, rather than just assume those of newspapers.

You don't condemn the actions of the minority; the minority which I have been talking about all along ?

 

[BCFC Jimmer]

I have never read the Daily Mail in my life. Not that it makes any difference to anything. Many people in this country are intelligent enough to form their own opinions, rather than just assume those of newspapers.

You don't condemn the actions of the minority; the minority which I have been talking about all along ?

 

To be fair mate, I think we would all condemn the actions of those who spat etc.  It essentially goes without saying.  The point is, there are bigger f*cking issues here - talking about a few idiots who kicked off gives Cameron exactly what he wants.

I think everyone is just a bit annoyed that you have hijacked an interesting thread with some pointless attack on something that we all know is stupid and wrong.

[PHILINFRANCE]

 

Yes I found your scum comment very engaging.

PS:- Perhaps you need to pay a little more attention, you misguidedly attacked Aizoon, he's actually one of you.

 

Well, that is interesting.

Given his infatuation with hedgehogs; his history of wearing skirts and knee-length yellow socks in his youth and then studying in Wales, I had always assumed he was 'one of them'. 

[The Gasbuster]

To be fair mate, I think we would all condemn the actions of those who spat etc.  It essentially goes without saying.  The point is, there are bigger f*cking issues here - talking about a few idiots who kicked off gives Cameron exactly what he wants.

I think everyone is just a bit annoyed that you have hijacked an interesting thread with some pointless attack on something that we all know is stupid and wrong.

Hijack is a good word, I like that !

I don't think I am alone though. In this thread there are references to Julius Caesar, Crassus, Mao Tse Tung and Horace the Hedgehog !  

And thanks for at least acknowledging it.

[PHILINFRANCE]

I have never read the Daily Mail in my life. You ought to give it a try. I read it on-line several times a week and it is 'enlightening'. The readers' comments, though....!?! Not that it makes any difference to anything. Many people in this country are intelligent enough to form their own opinions, rather than just assume those of newspapers.

You don't condemn the actions of the minority; the minority which I have been talking about all along ?

 

[marshy]

Hijack is a good word, I like that !

I don't think I am alone though. In this thread there are references to Julius Caesar, Crassus, Mao Tse Tung and Horace the Hedgehog !  

And thanks for at least acknowledging it.

Yeh but at least no-one has got round to Hitler yet....whoops.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Clearly a minority out of thousands of protesters though!  Once again, no perspective at all.

 

 

WTF are you on about now FFS, where have I mentioned protesters????.

 

[BCFC Jimmer]

WTF are you on about now FFS, where have I mentioned protesters????.

 

Didnt mean to quote you there.

[Kid in the Riot]

I have never read the Daily Mail in my life. Not that it makes any difference to anything. Many people in this country are intelligent enough to form their own opinions, rather than just assume those of newspapers.

You don't condemn the actions of the minority; the minority which I have been talking about all along ?

 

Bollox have you never read it. Your views are directly lifted from it.

Some Torys got called some names? Sorry about that. Sure they've got thick enough skin holding in those heartless bodies. 

[Welcome To The Jungle]

I've done some research into why British productivity is low. Turns out it is this guys fault...