Clueless

[BarnzFM]

Just as much a problem going forward as we have in defence, the difference yesterday was they took their chances we didn't. Kodjia had 2 really good chance in the first chance that were fluffed, a bit more composure and the scoreline would have been much closer.

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, BarnzFM said:

Just as much a problem going forward as we have in defence, the difference yesterday was they took their chances we didn't. Kodjia had 2 really good chance in the first chance that were fluffed, a bit more composure and the scoreline would have been much closer.

The score line might have been a bit closer, but we would still have been in the situation where we needed 4 goals to draw!  That's assuming Fulham didn't score anymore. They were coasting in the second half, which wasn't surprising with a 4 goal lead. If we had scored a couple early in the second half, I expect they would have moved back into first gear 

[samo II]

Whichever way you choose to slice or debate it (transfer dealings, facts), and however things shook out on the day (unlucky calls for us, took their chances) the problem is not in the analysis, but the fact we're having the same conversations week after week now.  And it doesn't make you a doom monger to say that our form is both unsustainable and terrible.

Back against Burnely we were unfortunate to be trailing and played well despite the loss.  And against Leeds we dominated them but only got a point due to our less refined cutting edge.

That you could be said about Cardiff and Fulham, and do people realistically think of the only ten remaining teams in this league we've yet to face this season that they don't see us making the same observations more than once?  Sadly, based on our seemingly complete commitment to the specific personnel and system we play, I do.

I imagine Fulham watched our game Monday and thought; "they look decent, but I see some room to get at them" so adapted, and put us out of the game by half time.  That's how football works; you're not playing these game over and over, with the opposition prepared the same way.

I'm of a mind that we've no real choice but to stick with Cotts for the time being; it's his team, and currently I've no idea how anyone else would use these players any different in the short term.

But if we hit January still in touch but certainly in trouble, I hope to God he and SL put their heads together and display an awareness of the task ahead of them that has seemingly so far passed them by, and invest in the playing staff properly and ruthlessly, in order to avoid the significantly deeper investment in our stadium not to be comprehensively pissed away by trying to get crowds of 25k+ in a division we escaped with ample time to prepare for this one not six months ago.

Losing 4 nil inside 40 mins to a team only 6 points better off than us at kick off; if that isn't a true wake up call to the club management, I don't know what is.  

[Ivorguy]

I have been asked on this thread when the manager should go, in my opinion.  My answer is sooner rather than later.

I have also been asked who I would want to replace him.

I don't know.  I want a proper appointment process initiated, unlike the last time.

I want a clear job description (remember we shifted from head coach to manager with no explanation), a clear person specification, at least a two tier interview process (to include some practical tasks, eg presenting a pre match and half time talk on a given case study.  Two final musts - use of an experienced manager as a professional consultant, and a real effort made to have at least one ethnic minority candidate on the final shortlist.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

15 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Was I where oh sarcastic super fan ??

Oh the answers Yes by the way

Only 1083 City games on my journey - what number do I need to hit to become the super uber fan you portray yourself as ????

Oh dear- that's a bit touchy Bob.

My point (and certainly not sarcastic) was that if you were there then you must have seen that we were not overwhelmingly outplayed just overwhelmingly outscored. We had the majority of possession (55%), some 15 attempts on goal compared to their 10 and won the second half 1-0. So no- I don't think they outplayed us but they do have a lot of quality in their team and scored with virtually every shot on goal. And to avoid splitting hairs- if losing a match is ,ergo, being outplayed by default: then yes we were 'outplayed'.

As for being a 'super fan' - that's certainly not how I see myself; just a City fan who isn't in the habit of spitting his dummy out every time things don't go our way.

 

[pongo88]

As for being clueless, what's worrying, is the fact that City are making the same basic mistakes that were being made at the start of the season. Usually, during training, a team will work on formation, tactics, positional play etc. Either Cotts and the coaching team are not very good at this, or the players can't apply the basics during a match. Whichever it is, it doesn't bode well for the future, unless something changes. 

[1960maaan]

58 minutes ago, samo II said:

Whichever way you choose to slice or debate it (transfer dealings, facts), and however things shook out on the day (unlucky calls for us, took their chances) the problem is not in the analysis, but the fact we're having the same conversations week after week now.  And it doesn't make you a doom monger to say that our form is both unsustainable and terrible.

Agree

Back against Burnely we were unfortunate to be trailing and played well despite the loss.  And against Leeds we dominated them but only got a point due to our less refined cutting edge.

Leeds were killing us on the break due to kamikazi attacking, yes later we totally dominated but I feel even that was partly due to them going 2-0 up.

That you could be said about Cardiff and Fulham, and do people realistically think of the only ten remaining teams in this league we've yet to face this season that they don't see us making the same observations more than once?  Sadly, based on our seemingly complete commitment to the specific personnel and system we play, I do.

Should have beaten Cardiff BUT ! If we were talking from their perspective we would be saying the same thing after the Ameobe miss, and a free header or two.

I imagine Fulham watched our game Monday and thought; "they look decent, but I see some room to get at them" so adapted, and put us out of the game by half time.  That's how football works; you're not playing these game over and over, with the opposition prepared the same way.

True, and I have said before, teams have sussed us . The team talk could be as simple as, keep it tight , exploit the space behind the WB's and they will give you a chance.

I'm of a mind that we've no real choice but to stick with Cotts for the time being; it's his team, and currently I've no idea how anyone else would use these players any different in the short term.

Exactly , but if there has to be a change the new man has to have time to assess the squad before the transfer window.

But if we hit January still in touch but certainly in trouble, I hope to God he and SL put their heads together and display an awareness of the task ahead of them that has seemingly so far passed them by, and invest in the playing staff properly and ruthlessly, in order to avoid the significantly deeper investment in our stadium not to be comprehensively pissed away by trying to get crowds of 25k+ in a division we escaped with ample time to prepare for this one not six months ago.

As I've said, the change would need to be made before the window, or not this season.

Losing 4 nil inside 40 mins to a team only 6 points better off than us at kick off; if that isn't a true wake up call to the club management, I don't know what is.  

6 points at this stage is a decent lead , I was worried after hearing how they (Fulham) scored 4 against the run of play Vs Reading. I hope your're right about a wake up call, but Cott's is very stubborn and a change may be seen as an admission that he was wrong. There are a few things I's like to see, but that would just be opinion, but the truth is something has to change and that's not one of SC's strong points.

 

[Red-Robbo]

24 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

As for being clueless, what's worrying, is the fact that City are making the same basic mistakes that were being made at the start of the season. Usually, during training, a team will work on formation, tactics, positional play etc. Either Cotts and the coaching team are not very good at this, or the players can't apply the basics during a match. Whichever it is, it doesn't bode well for the future, unless something changes. 

Did you notice all the overhit balls in the first half, Pongo. 

Obviously,  the hot dry pitch was making the ball skim off the surface even faster than it usually does at AG. 

What depressed me was that Fulham seemed to have grasped this early on. The likes of Flint and Pack continued to overhit passes until the obvious had been pointed out to them at half-time.

[Drew Peacock]

38 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

As for being clueless, what's worrying, is the fact that City are making the same basic mistakes that were being made at the start of the season. Usually, during training, a team will work on formation, tactics, positional play etc. Either Cotts and the coaching team are not very good at this, or the players can't apply the basics during a match. Whichever it is, it doesn't bode well for the future, unless something changes. 

This is it in a nutshell. We still have a good L1 team. But that is all.  Most of our players would be ok championship squad players, but too many of them do not have the speed of thought, decision making or concentration to be good championship players.  And a couple aren't even championship standard.

[pongo88]

23 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Did you notice all the overhit balls in the first half, Pongo. 

Obviously,  the hot dry pitch was making the ball skim off the surface even faster than it usually does at AG. 

What depressed me was that Fulham seemed to have grasped this early on. The likes of Flint and Pack continued to overhit passes until the obvious had been pointed out to them at half-time.

You've highlighted another problem - decision making. You can have wondered pre-match plans, but once players are on the pitch, the manager can't make decisions for them. Good players can think about the game and adjust, but perhaps too many of the currency squad can't do this. They could get away with it last season, but not in the Championship 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

 

I want a clear job description (remember we shifted from head coach to manager with no explanation), a clear person specification, at least a two tier interview process (to include some practical tasks, eg presenting a pre match and half time talk on a given case study.  Two final musts - use of an experienced manager as a professional consultant, and a real effort made to have at least one ethnic minority candidate on the final shortlist.

But this is the world of football, it's unlike any other business.  In the real world, the players would be on Performance Improvement plans, which would be informal for three months, then you'd make it formal for another three, then if things haven't improved the player would would bring in their union to support them and another three months would go by.  So that's nine months.....oh no.....the season has just ended!  The union would probably find out some loop hole and you'd have to start the process again!  Two seasons in, the player is still there!!

As for one ethnic minority on the shortlist, why not go for Hope Powell, and cover off a female quota into the bargain as well? 

The last recruitment process appeared to take on no formal structure, yet it brought in a manager, who most didn't want, yet who took us to The Championship, when most fans thought he'd take us down to the Fourth tier.

Going back to Hope Powell, would you be happy with her appointment if she went through your recruitment process and was successful?

[Ivorguy]

Many thanks for your reply.

I was not suggesting appointment and contract procedures for players but for the manager.  A quite different scenario.

As for a female manager I can see no objection at all if she is the best person for the job.

I simply don't understand this dated sexism

[samo II]

5 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

6 points at this stage is a decent lead , I was worried after hearing how they (Fulham) scored 4 against the run of play Vs Reading. I hope your're right about a wake up call, but Cott's is very stubborn and a change may be seen as an admission that he was wrong. There are a few things I's like to see, but that would just be opinion, but the truth is something has to change and that's not one of SC's strong points.

I'll be honest; I've no real idea of what the future brings right now - the prospect of a tails-up Wolves team, fresh off beating a very decent Brum team away from home, facing the same starting eleven as we put out this weekend does not fill me with hope, but we have sometimes thrown out our better performances after pretty terrible showings, but that could just be me grasping for positives.

It feels like one step forward, two steps back at the moment, and for me the remaining four games in November will clarify a lot of things; two teams above us, two teams below us, with the former both at home and the latter both away.  We require (by which I mean "need a minimum of") 6 points from these four games - More would be tremendous; less a disaster.  

And I don't care if people want to give me crap and scoff at that statement; the fact is that even 6 more points in those games gives us just 17 from 18, which is frankly a pathetic return, and still leaves us real relegation contenders, and anything other than wins against Bolton and Rotherham will do them big favours in trying to overtake us.

It's a pretty bleak position we're in just now, and I guess we just have to wait and see if the SC and this squad have what it takes to turn it around.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Nomad said:

That's Steve Cotterill.

MADNESS, Surely that must also go for the person who brought him here then? what on earth was he thinking about, bringing a manager here that would save us from the Dreariness and the depths of relegation to winners at Wembley and div champions.

Yet ONLY a few months later that manager can do no right in some fans eyes and is indeed clueless in what he`s doing.

I would say cut the guy some slack and random players who have to bare the brunt of "the blame" by a few on here and their bandwagon jumpers.

OK not the start we all hoped for, but be assured SL and SC will do everything needed to keep us in this division and out of the bottom 3 and at this present time have  done just that. By the end of the season it will be likewise, Believe...... doom merchants.

[Nomad]

8 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

MADNESS, Surely that must also go for the person who brought him here then? what on earth was he thinking about, bringing a manager here that would save us from the Dreariness and the depths of relegation to winners at Wembley and div champions.

Yet ONLY a few months later that manager can do no right in some fans eyes and is indeed clueless in what he`s doing.

I would say cut the guy some slack and random players who have to bare the brunt of "the blame" by a few on here and their bandwagon jumpers.

OK not the start we all hoped for, but be assured SL and SC will do everything needed to keep us in this division and out of the bottom 3 and at this present time have  done just that. By the end of the season it will be likewise, Believe...... doom merchants.

Make sure you keep your rose tinted's on and keep clapping.

[I am the mole]

8 hours ago, bemmyredjeff said:

So whats the outcome on wilbrahams heading stats this time after his surprising success rate at Cardiff ?

I'm so keen to find out I could hardly sleep last night !!

From what I seen yesterday wilbrahams looked more likely to win a Diana Ross look-a-like contest than a header! And of any that he did win fell to a Fulham player!

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Nomad said:

Make sure you keep your rose tinted's on and keep clapping.

I will do, its called belief in our manager and the man who hired him, rather than running around desperately looking for someone, anyone to blame for some defeats in a much tougher league than last seasons.

[TETBURY MASSIVE]

21 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

I will do, its called belief in our manager and the man who hired him, rather than running around desperately looking for someone, anyone to blame for some defeats in a much tougher league than last seasons.

Totally agree Glos, there is too many crack smoking gashead wannabes on here that don't understand the problems and who is at fault for things. It's the same old same old on here.... They all give it large on a forum but wouldn't have the bottle to say it too SC face in real life. 

[Ashtonboy]

6 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

I have been asked on this thread when the manager should go, in my opinion.  My answer is sooner rather than later.

I have also been asked who I would want to replace him.

I don't know.  I want a proper appointment process initiated, unlike the last time.

I want a clear job description (remember we shifted from head coach to manager with no explanation), a clear person specification, at least a two tier interview process (to include some practical tasks, eg presenting a pre match and half time talk on a given case study.  Two final musts - use of an experienced manager as a professional consultant, and a real effort made to have at least one ethnic minority candidate on the final shortlist.

Oh for christs sake!! Your in "HR" aren't you. " A person specification" Ha ha ha ha. We'd end up with a mixture of SOD for his "so called" coaching skills and Rodgers ability to talk total bollox.

[Ivorguy]

Sorry to disappoint I am from the pre HR era.

it's just common sense

Had we ever appointed properly in recent years we would have in all likelihood avoided the managers you cite

I am at a loss why anyone thinks it sensible to run a multi million pound business, as City are, as though we were in the Downs League.

Do you really think Barcelona, who according to SL we are trying to emulate, are run in such an amateur way?

In fact, on balance, I think we could do a lot worse than handing over our next

managerial appointment to the Barcelona Board !

 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Sorry to disappoint I am from the pre HR era.

it's just common sense

Had we ever appointed properly in recent years we would have in all likelihood avoided the managers you cite

I am at a loss why anyone thinks it sensible to run a multi million pound business, as City are, as though we were in the Downs League.

Do you really think Barcelona, who according to SL we are trying to emulate, are run in such an amateur way?

In fact, on balance, I think we could do a lot worse than handing over our next

managerial appointment to the Barcelona Board !

 

I think maybe SL could possibly know how to run a multi-million pound business, maybe a bit more than you ? do you work for the  board by any chance?