See all the experts who know more than the bloke that took us from near to Division 4 to the Championship are about tonight then

[NickJ]

[Frenchay Red]

That's a 2 line post title on my new 5.5" phone in landscape mode!

[Red-Robbo]

No point having a football forum if you're just going to expect everyone to agree with everything the manager does, Nick.

Today was an embarrassment. No point pretending otherwise.  

For me, it raises again questions that have been nagging all season. 

[1960maaan]

OK I see how it's supposed to work now.

Try Plan A , is this working ? Refer to plan B

Plan B see above !

 

 

[spudski]

'See all the experts who know more than the bloke that took us from near to Division 4 to the Championship are about tonight then '

 

Yep....bless him....still playing like a league 1 side in the Championship.....very naïve.

Have said it all along....I think Cotts isn't the manager to take us forward in this league.

Like managers before him, GJ and Ward....good at getting teams out of difficult positions....but taking them to the 'next level'...I don't think he has the ability.

Game of opinions of course....that's why football is so emotive.

[slartibartfast]

The title reminds me a bit of this..........

At midnight all the agents
And the superhuman crew
Come out and round up everyone
That knows more than they do

 

 

[Ivorguy]

It is not a question of knowing more about football it is about knowing about management

As a former CEO, and Chair of Boards, I recognise failing management when I see it, and sadly I see it at Ashton Gate.

Having made the analysis the next stage is to act on that assessment.

That is SL's call.

[spudski]

21 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

It is not a question of knowing more about football it is about knowing about management

As a former CEO, and Chair of Boards, I recognise failing management when I see it, and sadly I see it at Ashton Gate.

Having made the analysis the next stage is to act on that assessment.

That is SL's call.

Spot on....Cotts needs to take heed and not be so bullish, or it will cost him his job.

As noted by so many football commentators recently, including yesterday....SC is one dimensional, other managers know how to set up against him, as he is so predictable.

He doesn't ever change. Fulham did it yesterday....there manager said they changed to adapt to City, they knew exactly how we would play.

Managing is partly about outwitting your counterparts and being better at it than them.

Teams must love playing against us....it's like going to war and knowing exactly what your enemy are going to do before starting.

[Nogbad the Bad]

57 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

It is not a question of knowing more about football it is about knowing about management

As a former CEO, and Chair of Boards, I recognise failing management when I see it, and sadly I see it at Ashton Gate.

Having made the analysis the next stage is to act on that assessment.

That is SL's call.

SL knows alot more about this particular managerial environment than you do and it may be he has reached the opposite conclusion.

To stand fully behind the most successful manager he's had for many years who's not only brought the club almost unimaginable success since his appointment but is also someone with a history of calmly and successfully turning things round when faced with the current situation.

SL may also not want to cause a potentially irreparable schism with his main partner on the board who's advice he took to appoint SC in the first place, particularly when the situation is nowhere near crisis point, and he has made so many regrettable managerial decisions himself in the past.

He will also be mindful that the shareholders and customers of his 'business' - in this case 15k attending fans - are showing absolutely no signs of large scale disenchantment with the current manager, in fact just the opposite - most remain behind him and would be stunned and incredulous if SL took the drastic destabilising action you espouse which would undoubtedly see the club plunged into turmoil yet again.

 

[BS13 Robin]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Spot on....Cotts needs to take heed and not be so bullish, or it will cost him his job.

As noted by so many football commentators recently, including yesterday....SC is one dimensional, other managers know how to set up against him, as he is so predictable.

He doesn't ever change. Fulham did it yesterday....there manager said they changed to adapt to City, they knew exactly how we would play.

Managing is partly about outwitting your counterparts and being better at it than them.

Teams must love playing against us....it's like going to war and knowing exactly what your enemy are going to do before starting.

and also remember that Kit Symons has only been a first team coach since last season although he has been a number two! Also Cotts struggled in the championship at both Forest and Burnley if I remember correctly,his relunctance to change things could cost us dearly at the end of the season

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, billywedlock said:

The Fulham manager, who I assume you allow to be an expert, decided to change his sides shape to nullify our 5-3-2 , and put 4 past us in a very few minutes. Because he actually had the ability to adapt. We have played a constant 5-3-2 , people know how to play against us as it stays the same. 

[Bristol City] are a good side and they can cause teams problems. We changed our shape today, it’s something I’ve been looking at doing for quite a while. I thought we had the right personnel to do that, and it sort of matched up with them and nullified their threat and caused them problems.

They played 3-4-2 , yes that simple, they murdered us in central midfield, cut off options for our centre backs, and pressured them into errors. they had 4 on 3. The wing backs have to read the situation, and move up.5-3-2 is all about the wing backs. We do not have world class wing backs who can defend, attack, read the game when the midfield is being over run, get back on the counter. We are playing teams with Prem class players on huge budgets. You have to adapt, we do not have Prem class players to use such an extravagant shape against such teams. How many opposition managers have said the same, have adapted their side, which has generally better players to us. Yet we, suffering with squad size and quality, are able to believe we can out play anyone with this approach without even a slight hint of change or adaption. 

I would be less concerned about armchair experts that the blind optimism of our manager who took us to the Championship. 

"They played 3-4-2..." ??? Did I miss them getting a man sent off then?!

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, gloucester robin said:

and also remember that Kit Symons has only been a first team coach since last season although he has been a number two! Also Cotts struggled in the championship at both Forest and Burnley if I remember correctly,his relunctance to change things could cost us dearly at the end of the season

Perhaps we could bring in SOD to help Cotts out ?  

[Aizoon]

4 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

The title reminds me a bit of this..........

At midnight all the agents
And the superhuman crew
Come out and round up everyone
That knows more than they do

 

 

Isn't that from "Relegation Row"?

[Numero Uno]

4 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

It is not a question of knowing more about football it is about knowing about management

As a former CEO, and Chair of Boards, I recognise failing management when I see it, and sadly I see it at Ashton Gate.

Having made the analysis the next stage is to act on that assessment.

That is SL's call.

You talk like you have some sort of elevated authority on the current situation. As a former CEO (of an Office based Business, if I had to guess, not a football club) tell us what failing management errors he is making. Does he not have control over his staff? Is he doing too much and not delegating correctly? Is he doing sweet fa himself and delegating too much? Has he got the staff training regime (forgive the office bullshit terminology that you no doubt understand so well Mr CEO) wrong? Are the players demoralised and demotivated under his tenure? Have you been there on the inside to witness all of this?

Yes, as fans, we all have an opinion on what shape we should be in when we haven't got possession of the ball but the main problem yesterday was individual errors (three of the four goals were basic individual errors). The difference with football compared to big business is that as a CEO you can have QA systems and middle management in place below you and reporting to you in order to minimise the likelihood of individual errors occurring. No football manager can put systems in place that legislate for Flint's mistake yesterday or Fielding's laughable effort at saving that free kick or Freeman's crap touch that led him to giving away the free kick in the first place. You could pick better players, if you had them, and they will still make individual errors somewhere along the line. The difference between football and business is that you haven't got the control systems in place to stop the errors affecting the outcome.

We couldn't say "stop, lets carry out a rain check" before Flint passed the ball to their player whereas a CEO of a commercial business (or his management below him) can do exactly that before a document goes out. That's the nature of football and makes your comparison ridiculous quite frankly.

Face facts, you want the guy out and will make any point to reinforce that view - simple as that - nothing to do with being an ex CEO and Boardroom Bullshit Bingo merchant.

[Ivorguy]

Just for the record my career was not in business

The facts are clear he is failing in this league.  He is unable or unwilling to change the way we are set up.  He is clearly failing on the coaching side - just take Fielding's ongoing inability to distribute effectively.  He persists in playing players who, for whatever reason, can't hack it in this division, even when he has options available - just take Wilbraham as an example. He has brought in loan players and does not even put them on the bench, just think Robinson.  His post match comments are increasingly losing touch with the reality.

We all know that every football manager's career ends in failure, it is always a question of acting before the situation is unrecoverable.  Our present manager will be sacked at some point the only question is when.

Of course the Board and SL must take responsibility. I recall no proper appointment procedures (or indeed appropriate contract conditions) followed with the last appointment.  We are paying the price in my opinion for that Board mismanagement.

You are welcome to disagree but my feeling is that with each game more people are coming round to the view that the decision has to be made sooner rather than later.

 

My greatest fear is that relegation this season might not be able to be halted next year.  I see too much of Alan Dicks in our current manager - and I still rate Dicks as the better of the two.

[REDOXO]

3 hours ago, billywedlock said:

The Fulham manager, who I assume you allow to be an expert, decided to change his sides shape to nullify our 5-3-2 , and put 4 past us in a very few minutes. Because he actually had the ability to adapt. We have played a constant 5-3-2 , people know how to play against us as it stays the same. 

[Bristol City] are a good side and they can cause teams problems. We changed our shape today, it’s something I’ve been looking at doing for quite a while. I thought we had the right personnel to do that, and it sort of matched up with them and nullified their threat and caused them problems.

They played 3-4-2 , yes that simple, they murdered us in central midfield, cut off options for our centre backs, and pressured them into errors. they had 4 on 3. The wing backs have to read the situation, and move up.5-3-2 is all about the wing backs. We do not have world class wing backs who can defend, attack, read the game when the midfield is being over run, get back on the counter. We are playing teams with Prem class players on huge budgets. You have to adapt, we do not have Prem class players to use such an extravagant shape against such teams. How many opposition managers have said the same, have adapted their side, which has generally better players to us. Yet we, suffering with squad size and quality, are able to believe we can out play anyone with this approach without even a slight hint of change or adaption. 

I would be less concerned about armchair experts that the blind optimism of our manager who took us to the Championship. 

I think there may well be something there....Even 20pence made the point that teams come to AG and know how to play us!

4 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

It is not a question of knowing more about football it is about knowing about management

As a former CEO, and Chair of Boards, I recognise failing management when I see it, and sadly I see it at Ashton Gate.

Having made the analysis the next stage is to act on that assessment.

That is SL's call.

Yes league position and goal difference suggest there is a problem and I suggest SL has/is/will be on the blower to ask the manager what he thinks, however no chance of a firing anytime soon (if thats what you are suggesting)...As he will be right behind the manager and so am I....Despite this we do need to change something and that will be managements job to drive the change on the field to move us up the table

3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

SL knows alot more about this particular managerial environment than you do and it may be he has reached the opposite conclusion.

To stand fully behind the most successful manager he's had for many years who's not only brought the club almost unimaginable success since his appointment but is also someone with a history of calmly and successfully turning things round when faced with the current situation.

SL may also not want to cause a potentially irreparable schism with his main partner on the board who's advice he took to appoint SC in the first place, particularly when the situation is nowhere near crisis point, and he has made so many regrettable managerial decisions himself in the past.

He will also be mindful that the shareholders and customers of his 'business' - in this case 15k attending fans - are showing absolutely no signs of large scale disenchantment with the current manager, in fact just the opposite - most remain behind him and would be stunned and incredulous if SL took the drastic destabilising action you espouse which would undoubtedly see the club plunged into turmoil yet again.

 

Agreed!

9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

You talk like you have some sort of elevated authority on the current situation. As a former CEO (of an Office based Business, if I had to guess, not a football club) tell us what failing management errors he is making. Does he not have control over his staff? Is he doing too much and not delegating correctly? Is he doing sweet fa himself and delegating too much? Has he got the staff training regime (forgive the office bullshit terminology that you no doubt understand so well Mr CEO) wrong? Are the players demoralised and demotivated under his tenure? Have you been there on the inside to witness all of this?

Yes, as fans, we all have an opinion on what shape we should be in when we haven't got possession of the ball but the main problem yesterday was individual errors (three of the four goals were basic individual errors). The difference with football compared to big business is that as a CEO you can have QA systems and middle management in place below you and reporting to you in order to minimise the likelihood of individual errors occurring. No football manager can put systems in place that legislate for Flint's mistake yesterday or Fielding's laughable effort at saving that free kick or Freeman's crap touch that led him to giving away the free kick in the first place. You could pick better players, if you had them, and they will still make individual errors somewhere along the line. The difference between football and business is that you haven't got the control systems in place to stop the errors affecting the outcome.

We couldn't say "stop, lets carry out a rain check" before Flint passed the ball to their player whereas a CEO of a commercial business (or his management below him) can do exactly that before a document goes out. That's the nature of football and makes your comparison ridiculous quite frankly.

Face facts, you want the guy out and will make any point to reinforce that view - simple as that - nothing to do with being an ex CEO and Boardroom Bullshit Bingo merchant.

Not sure of the motives of the guy you reply to....But yes individual errors at the back are a problem, plus the inability to convert enough of the dozens of chances we create...The broad issue right now is we are doing the same thing time and again expecting a different result and so some change is inevitable as in general terms the result is a defeat and shipped goals...Never the less I am and SL will continue to be behind SC and rightly so as you imply! 

[slartibartfast]

1 hour ago, Aizoon said:

Isn't that from "Relegation Row"?

Spot on, unfortunately .

 

 

[Bantry Banter]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

We all know that every football manager's career ends in failure,

Good afternoon, I am posting here on behalf of Sir Alex Ferguson and would like to know where you get your information from!

[Ivorguy]

You quote the one example that proves the general statement

[reddogkev]

I'm still confused in respect to using the phrase 'Championship' and 'Division 4' in the same statement.  Just makes no sense to me!!!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

Just for the record my career was not in business

The facts are clear he is failing in this league.  He is unable or unwilling to change the way we are set up.  He is clearly failing on the coaching side - just take Fielding's ongoing inability to distribute effectively.  He persists in playing players who, for whatever reason, can't hack it in this division, even when he has options available - just take Wilbraham as an example. He has brought in loan players and does not even put them on the bench, just think Robinson.  His post match comments are increasingly losing touch with the reality.

We all know that every football manager's career ends in failure, it is always a question of acting before the situation is unrecoverable.  Our present manager will be sacked at some point the only question is when.

Of course the Board and SL must take responsibility. I recall no proper appointment procedures (or indeed appropriate contract conditions) followed with the last appointment.  We are paying the price in my opinion for that Board mismanagement.

You are welcome to disagree but my feeling is that with each game more people are coming round to the view that the decision has to be made sooner rather than later.

 

My greatest fear is that relegation this season might not be able to be halted next year.  I see too much of Alan Dicks in our current manager - and I still rate Dicks as the better of the two.

AD took us to the prem with the best City team in my lifetime so SC can be as much like AD as he likes imo.

[Aizoon]

2 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

AD took us to the prem with the best City team in my lifetime so SC can be as much like AD as he likes imo.

If only...

[Ivorguy]

SC has about as much chance of taking us to the Premiership as Frenchman Kodjia has of playing for England.

We must be realistic as fans as well as optimistic

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

SC has about as much chance of taking us to the Premiership as Frenchman Kodjia has of playing for England.

We must be realistic as fans as well as optimistic

 

Time will tell young skywalker

[BS4 on Tour...]

57 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Sorry, it was 5 across midfield / 4 and one behind strikers (albeit very good strikers) Concept the same, they washed out our midfield, pushed wingbacks back, and caused unforced errors. They stopped us playing and countered. 

It was scary how easily they adapted to our formation and basically snuffed it out from minute one...

[Redrobbin]

2 hours ago, Bantry Banter said:

Good afternoon, I am posting here on behalf of Sir Alex Ferguson and would like to know where you get your information from!

The one exception to the rule. Unless you can string together a few more. 

Besides his career in football is not over. It could still end in failure. 

 

[Bantry Banter]

The original claim was that every football MANAGER'S career ends in failure - can you see Sir Alex managing a footy club again?

[Bantry Banter]

Were Jock Stein & Bill Shankly ever failures?

[Redrobbin]

Would you argree the vast majority of them do.

Unless they are lucky enough to have a soild LOYAL set of top draw players that are soley devoted to the club/

manager.  Fergie is the last of a dying breed, that can boast that. Hence why you have had to arch back to the Bill Shankly days. Long time ago. This is modern football. 

[Bantry Banter]

Oh all right then....I concede!  MOST managers careers do end in failure.

Blimey, who'd be a footy manager!