Tales From The Front Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 I fully agree with the formation / players knackered observations. Think about it. The manager expects two wing packs to patrol 100 yards each sider of the pitch, by definition City spend a considerable amount of time in their final third. The expectation that one of either Bryan, Bennett, Williams! or Little to bomb forward beat 2 or 3 players and deliver quality in the box or heaven forbid put a shot on target. Joe Bryan for example in my view is not and never will be a defender, put him on the left flank with a competent fullback behind him and we may just see a return to the player we know he can be casing problems and scoring the odd goal. At the moment he is literally being run into the ground and his performances, unsurprisingly have suffered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 9 minutes ago, Tales From The Front said: I fully agree with the formation / players knackered observations. Think about it. The manager expects two wing packs to patrol 100 yards each sider of the pitch, by definition City spend a considerable amount of time in their final third. The expectation that one of either Bryan, Bennett, Williams! or Little to bomb forward beat 2 or 3 players and deliver quality in the box or heaven forbid put a shot on target. Joe Bryan for example in my view is not and never will be a defender, put him on the left flank with a competent fullback behind him and we may just see a return to the player we know he can be casing problems and scoring the odd goal. At the moment he is literally being run into the ground and his performances, unsurprisingly have suffered. I know we have Loans going back, but what we have now, we need to consolidate... I'd personally play ------------------------------------------------------------FF-------------------------------------------------------------- Ayling-------------------------Moore/Flint-------------------------Baker----------------------------------Williams --------------------------------------------------==Pack/Smith--------------------------------------------------------- ---------------Bennett-----------------------------------------------------------------------Bryan----------------------- ------------------------------------------------------Freeman------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------Cox/Burns---------------------------Kodijia/Wilbs-------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tales From The Front Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Agree Spudski, as I've posted in a separate threat 2nd half yesterday was the ideal opportunity to experiment with something along those lines, although in reality it should have been tried much earlier. We need pace and we clearly need to be trying to play more of the game in the opponents half. Yes there is a skills gap, we know that but you narrow that by work rate /energy like we did against Forest at home. As you and I comment the formation is warring our player out, which we need to conserve, to be able to press teams for longer in games and more importantly take the game to the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Too simplistic a solution IMO. Didn't we line up 4-4-1-1 at Derby with a similar outcome. No, the team needs to be strengthened in the positions everyone is aware of irrespective of how the team lines up, though I can't argue that we seem to be stuck with a formation that is not working. We are also stuck with alternative players on the bench who can't get a chance and who might make a difference. Thinking Wes or even Cox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tales From The Front Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 2 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: Too simplistic a solution IMO. Didn't we line up 4-4-1-1 at Derby with a similar outcome. No, the team needs to be strengthened in the positions everyone is aware of irrespective of how the team lines up, though I can't argue that we seem to be stuck with a formation that is not working. We are also stuck with alternative players on the bench who can't get a chance and who might make a difference. Thinking Wes or even Cox. It might be, but we just don't know, as it hasn't been tried. When the manager says he is getting all out of this group of players I disagree. Yes he is with a 3-5-2 formation but he hasn't and appears wont try anything else. Once he really has tried everything then we can truly say its not his fault. yes we need quality a striker more than anything but a manager / coach must do just that. Bristol City FC will always require a manger to get the best out of what he has the likelihood of a Mouriniho buy of the shelf situation is very unlikely. Whilst we as a club appear fortunate to be able to go "shopping" a few stars will always need to compliment the existing structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southvillekiddy Posted December 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 21 minutes ago, spudski said: I know we have Loans going back, but what we have now, we need to consolidate... I'd personally play ------------------------------------------------------------FF-------------------------------------------------------------- Ayling-------------------------Moore/Flint-------------------------Baker----------------------------------Williams --------------------------------------------------==Pack/Smith--------------------------------------------------------- ---------------Bennett-----------------------------------------------------------------------Bryan----------------------- ------------------------------------------------------Freeman------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------Cox/Burns---------------------------Kodijia/Wilbs-------------------------------------- Sorry mate but I've seen Cox waddling around looking lost up front when he has come on. While we are waiting on what might happen next month why not give a player who has been on the fringe of International duty playing for a team that just qualified for the European Championship not just a decent sub but a full start. Can't be any worse and we need something different that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 1 minute ago, Tales From The Front said: It might be, but we just don't know, as it hasn't been tried. When the manager says he is getting all out of this group of players I disagree. Yes he is with a 3-5-2 formation but he hasn't and appears wont try anything else. Once he really has tried everything then we can truly say its not his fault. yes we need quality a striker more than anything but a manager / coach must do just that. Bristol City FC will always require a manger to get the best out of what he has the likelihood of a Mouriniho buy of the shelf situation is very unlikely. Whilst we as a club appear fortunate to be able to go "shopping" a few stars will always need to compliment the existing structure. I'm not against 4-4-2, nearly all other teams play that way. Including those struggling around us. But just rearranging the players in our existing team it seems unlikely we would suddenly transform our form. We need to strengthen to have a chance. But I agree, it is puzzling why he hasn't worked on changing the shape. As puzzling as his use of substitutes. I don't understand why it is not obvious to him that even though we had a great season playing 3-5-2 last year, this season it's not working with a weaker squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 5 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said: Sorry mate but I've seen Cox waddling around looking lost up front when he has come on. While we are waiting on what might happen next month why not give a player who has been on the fringe of International duty playing for a team that just qualified for the European Championship not just a decent sub but a full start. Can't be any worse and we need something different that's for sure. I think I did fella...Cox/BURNS I've also looked at Cox and whilst I agree he has looked confused sometimes, he does offer something different, especially when he drops to receive the ball. Don't think we can judge half our players on the small amount of minutes they've come on. 4 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: I'm not against 4-4-2, nearly all other teams play that way. Including those struggling around us. But just rearranging the players in our existing team it seems unlikely we would suddenly transform our form. We need to strengthen to have a chance. But I agree, it is puzzling why he hasn't worked on changing the shape. As puzzling as his use of substitutes. I don't understand why it is not obvious to him that even though we had a great season playing 3-5-2 last year, this season it's not working with a weaker squad. Agreed we need to strengthen FR...but we are too easy to score against playing this system. Players are making mistakes, not because they are poor, but because they come under intense pressure in certain areas...plus fatigued....you can see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 10 minutes ago, spudski said: Agreed we need to strengthen FR...but we are too easy to score against playing this system. Players are making mistakes, not because they are poor, but because they come under intense pressure in certain areas...plus fatigued....you can see it. Strange isn't it. Last season most teams couldn't cope with our 3-5-2 system and it got the better of the ubiquitous 4-4-2, to our obvious advantage. This season the converse is true. We have by and large the same players, and the same system. But obviously now against much better opposition. So is it the players or the system. I really don't know. One or the other, or perhaps both. But something needs to change if we are to avoid an instant return to Lge 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 3 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: Strange isn't it. Last season most teams couldn't cope with our 3-5-2 system and it got the better of the ubiquitous 4-4-2, to our obvious advantage. This season the converse is true. We have by and large the same players, and the same system. But obviously now against much better opposition. So is it the players or the system. I really don't know. One or the other, or perhaps both. But something needs to change if we are to avoid an instant return to Lge 1. Trouble is every team we play knows how we will set up. There is no flexibility to us , and its very easy to read. We don't even seem to change tactics or formation during games. 4 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 If you add the fact that the opposition are by and large a much better standard who will not only punish our mistakes but not make ones themselves that we could exploit. We got away with a lot last year because we were far superior to most sides we played. When we came up against the better ones (Blades, PNE) we got found out to a certain extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 44 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said: Sorry mate but I've seen Cox waddling around looking lost up front when he has come on. While we are waiting on what might happen next month why not give a player who has been on the fringe of International duty playing for a team that just qualified for the European Championship not just a decent sub but a full start. Can't be any worse and we need something different that's for sure. In the 23 minutes he played against Fulham , Cox managed to get one shot off and set up our goal - which was more than the man he replaced had done in 71 minutes - and was considerably more bustling and energetic than most of the team. Unless he's gone dramatically backwards sInce then - which would call into question our training methods - he seemed neither overweight or "confused" and would surely be a better option than a tired and ineffective Freeman on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 6 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: In the 23 minutes he played against Fulham , Cox managed to get one shot off and set up our goal - which was more than the man he replaced had done in 71 minutes - and was considerably more bustling and energetic than most of the team. Unless he's gone dramatically backwards sInce then - which would call into question our training methods - he seemed neither overweight or "confused" and would surely be a better option than a tired and ineffective Freeman on occasion. I though the same RR...but I get the impression SC doesn't think Cox fits into our system. He dropped and came for the ball much more than our forwards usually do. SC seems intent on Wilbs and Kodj playing off one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 1 hour ago, spudski said: I know we have Loans going back, but what we have now, we need to consolidate... I'd personally play ------------------------------------------------------------FF-------------------------------------------------------------- Ayling-------------------------Moore/Flint-------------------------Baker----------------------------------Williams --------------------------------------------------==Pack/Smith--------------------------------------------------------- ---------------Bennett-----------------------------------------------------------------------Bryan----------------------- ------------------------------------------------------Freeman------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------Cox/Burns---------------------------Kodijia/Wilbs-------------------------------------- While I disagree with your message (we have tried another formation and we got stuffed) that does look like a sturdier formation as both Bryan and Bennett could have freedom to defend in a much more effective way, my only concern would be that it would probably take about 4-6 weeks to bed in where we would be unlikely to win (but that’s not much more different to what we have now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 1 minute ago, Pezo said: While I disagree with your message (we have tried another formation and we got stuffed) that does look like a sturdier formation as both Bryan and Bennett could have freedom to defend in a much more effective way, my only concern would be that it would probably take about 4-6 weeks to bed in where we would be unlikely to win (but that’s not much more different to what we have now). It's clear from what we've been doing that it isn't getting results. Every player has played a form of 442...so it's ingrained from an early age. Anyone coming to us in January would also be able to hit the ground running with a 442 type formation...coming into the system we play now is much harder to adapt to, as Bennett and Baker have both said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 1 minute ago, spudski said: It's clear from what we've been doing that it isn't getting results. Every player has played a form of 442...so it's ingrained from an early age. Anyone coming to us in January would also be able to hit the ground running with a 442 type formation...coming into the system we play now is much harder to adapt to, as Bennett and Baker have both said. I don’t disagree that we may get a little extra from changing the formation but I think the net result will probably end up pretty similar, I think signings are going to be far more important overall than changing the formation. I completely agree in that if were going to change it now is the time, im just not sure moving to a new formation is actually going to help (for something to be better there has to be a change but a change isn’t always better). I think we have a bunch of players that are still giving everything they have got and we have a manager that’s doing what he believes is right - and for me that’s enough (for the moment). I honestly believe we are 3 players away from being a decent mid table/play-off team but those 3 will have to be top class championship players and its difficult to convince top championship players to come to a team that’s pretty much got a 50% chance of relegation. I think we could change the formation all we want but unless there are some high quality signings I think were just tinkering, we also seem to have a problem with either training or coaching in that when players come here they seem to have quite a bit more about them, we seem to have brought Bennett down to our level and Kodj seems to have lost the ability to shoot on target - these were players that were standing out previously and now just look like they fit in with a struggling team, I don’t know if we have coached ability out of them or what but they are certainly not shining as bright as they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 4 minutes ago, Pezo said: I don’t disagree that we may get a little extra from changing the formation but I think the net result will probably end up pretty similar, I think signings are going to be far more important overall than changing the formation. I completely agree in that if were going to change it now is the time, im just not sure moving to a new formation is actually going to help (for something to be better there has to be a change but a change isn’t always better). I think we have a bunch of players that are still giving everything they have got and we have a manager that’s doing what he believes is right - and for me that’s enough (for the moment). I honestly believe we are 3 players away from being a decent mid table/play-off team but those 3 will have to be top class championship players and its difficult to convince top championship players to come to a team that’s pretty much got a 50% chance of relegation. I think we could change the formation all we want but unless there are some high quality signings I think were just tinkering, we also seem to have a problem with either training or coaching in that when players come here they seem to have quite a bit more about them, we seem to have brought Bennett down to our level and Kodj seems to have lost the ability to shoot on target - these were players that were standing out previously and now just look like they fit in with a struggling team, I don’t know if we have coached ability out of them or what but they are certainly not shining as bright as they were. What if the players are going out onto the pitch, not 100% believing in the system? They may try their hardest...but it's even harder to do when you are not 100% convinced... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 1 minute ago, spudski said: What if the players are going out onto the pitch, not 100% believing in the system? They may try their hardest...but it's even harder to do when you are not 100% convinced... Well A) they should be professional and get on with it, non of them seemed to be complaining last season when it was working for them and B) You cant please all the people all the time, if 3 players don’t believe in it but a different 5 don’t believe in 442 and say everyone has figured out 442 then what do you do? At least were doing something different I suppose. I would say get rid of the players that cant adopt the formation but I haven’t seen a single player out there that looks like they cant adopt our current formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 1 minute ago, Pezo said: Well A) they should be professional and get on with it, non of them seemed to be complaining last season when it was working for them and B) You cant please all the people all the time, if 3 players don’t believe in it but a different 5 don’t believe in 442 and say everyone has figured out 442 then what do you do? At least were doing something different I suppose. I would say get rid of the players that cant adopt the formation but I haven’t seen a single player out there that looks like they cant adopt our current formation. The point I was trying to make was...yes...you can play and adapt and give 100%...but it is a lot harder to pick yourself up and motivate yourself 100%, if you don't fully believe in the system. That happens in all walks of life...regardless of being Professional and paid well...it's natural. I'm not saying SC has lost the changing room...he hasn't...the players give 100%...but doubts on the system...hmmmmm...I beg to differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFree Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 For me, it's simple, we have a plan A and that's it...if that doesn't work, we've had it and let's face it, there are no surprises playing against us, it's too easy as predictable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City1970 Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 8 hours ago, phantom said: Fielding - the ball was his to come and claim, but for some unknown reason he failed to charge out and collect a simple ball You are talking about one of our weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smaller than a flea Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 I thought, reading the title of the thread, the difference was between Cotterill's description of the performance and what we watched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireSection Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 9 hours ago, southvillekiddy said: The difference between us and better teams is clear from the highlights at Burnley and other recent matches. We create chances but squander them - It's a hard thing to say but despite Kodjia having a very good tally of goals he could have had twice the number and if he was better and the team would have had other goal-scorers if he knew how to assist. As a result we would won more games. Gray doesn't need loads of chances to score a hatrick. He gets 3 goals with 3 chances. Secondly and again it's hard but our defence especially Aden don't have quick enough feet to deal with someone of Gray's quality. Saturday's stats show we had almost equal possession as Burnley and almost as many shots. They had 4 on target and scored the lot. We had 3 on target and .......... As someone said yesterday you cannot go up a far superior league like the Championship and expect to compete if for one reason or another you are without half the players who got you there - Elliot, Tavernier, JET, Matt Smith, Cunningham The difference after being there was we were awful, SC again did nothing to change it up and the team looked defeated before the whistle blew. The ref was crap which didn't help but Burnley were average, it's just we were so bad we made them look like Real Madrid. Yesterday was as bad as those dark times when GJ lost the plot, personally I think we're the worst or at least one of the three worst teams in the league and I seriously can't see it getting better. ..........Bristol Derby is a plus I guess.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southvillekiddy Posted December 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 3 hours ago, Red-Robbo said: In the 23 minutes he played against Fulham , Cox managed to get one shot off and set up our goal - which was more than the man he replaced had done in 71 minutes - and was considerably more bustling and energetic than most of the team. Unless he's gone dramatically backwards sInce then - which would call into question our training methods - he seemed neither overweight or "confused" and would surely be a better option than a tired and ineffective Freeman on occasion. Did you see him against Rotherham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 5 hours ago, southvillekiddy said: Sorry mate but I've seen Cox waddling around looking lost up front when he has come on. While we are waiting on what might happen next month why not give a player who has been on the fringe of International duty playing for a team that just qualified for the European Championship not just a decent sub but a full start. Can't be any worse and we need something different that's for sure. No, but tbh he had such a brief appearance it would be hard, as Spudski says, to judge somrone on that. He has a pedigree and I think it's fair to say he hasn't been utilised as well as he could be. Maybe if Freeman had been superb all season, bench-warming might be understandable, but he patently hasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted December 30, 2015 Admin Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Assume Cox isn't allowed to play for us against Reading? Limits out options even more if Agard is still injured Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chivs Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 16 hours ago, spudski said: I know we have Loans going back, but what we have now, we need to consolidate... I'd personally play ------------------------------------------------------------FF-------------------------------------------------------------- Ayling-------------------------Moore/Flint-------------------------Baker----------------------------------Williams --------------------------------------------------==Pack/Smith--------------------------------------------------------- ---------------Bennett-----------------------------------------------------------------------Bryan----------------------- ------------------------------------------------------Freeman------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------Cox/Burns---------------------------Kodijia/Wilbs-------------------------------------- I sort of agree with this but you are being vague. As you probably know, you can't pick 14 players to start! So, which 11 would you start with? Flint not Moore seems obvious. For me, I'd have Smith over Pack. Whilst Pack is great in the air (and Korey isn't), and can play a pass, he doesn't provide any cover to the back 4 (or traditionally 3) due to his woeful lack of pace. Plus Smith has leadership qualities that we desperately need. Up front, I'd go with Burns and Kodjia. Basically, I tend to think that defenders hate nothing more than pace. Since Burns is poor defensively, I'd tend to tell him to stay on the last defender's shoulder and not bother with tracking back. Kodjia could be given a freer role and perhaps drop off a little, and swap with Freeman occasionally. Having said that, it does mean we lose Wilbs "accidental elbow in the face, leave my French mate alone" attitude. In summary, ------------------------------------------------------------FF-------------------------------------------------------------- Ayling-------------------------Flint------------------------------------Baker----------------------------------Williams -----------------------------------------------------------Smith----------------------------------------------------------- ---------------Bennett-----------------------------------------------------------------------Bryan----------------------- ------------------------------------------------------Freeman------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------Burns------------------------------Kodijia-------------------------------------- If SL is reading this, I am currently a free agent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foghornred Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 We are all managers and have our favourites but its just that our players are struggling at this level partly from skill but mostly from confidence,take the game at Turf Moor,we seemed to have a policy of shoot when you see the goal, as we were on top early on,we had 4 or 5 shoots that sailed over or went wide,then Joey Barton get a shot in from distance and skims the bar. This is down to skill but also that you have to be confident to take your time and get your shot on target. Our player are struggling at the moment but we know that they can be better we need a few decisions to go our way and a few results and we will be OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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