jimgoeswest Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 It seems to me we have narrowed down the availability of our next 'gaffer' by insisting he has to be a head coach and not a manager. This precludes the likes of Moyes, Pearson and possibly even Monk (insert any successful manager) as they are all their own men and would insist on running the club their way. This includes recruitment, which I feel is a fairly important part of the job. They choose the formation / tactics and surely they would be best placed to decide who would fit in that role. For the head coach role we have an never ending list of sub standard tactically incompetent managers who have all failed and been sacked from previous jobs. Yet we feel they could succeed here, l'm not sure I get that. It does feel like the cheap option. As for our interim manager, What input did he have before SC got the boot. Did he not feel that maybe it might an idea to suggest a different formation three weeks ago? Or maybe suggest some recruitment. It may be that SC was so stubborn he wouldn't listen to anyone else. That is a real leadership failure. Or was it that he didn't want to rock the boat. Either way it feels like a weakness of character. And yet were trusting this guy to resurrect our season. Sometimes the right manager is available at the right time and you need to seize that opportunity. A big part of the managers job is pulling power and their ability to attract good players. We always seem to be fishing for cast offs and hoping for a different outcome. Although it was time to go I applaud SC in his search for superior players. By the way even Man City get snubbed now and then, it's nothing to be embarrassed about. I really hope I'm completely wrong about all this but at the moment I think the club have got it wrong. If our expectations are too high that's fine, lets lower them but stop talking about sustainable football and then in the next breathpremiership football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, jimgoeswest said: It seems to me we have narrowed down the availability of our next 'gaffer' by insisting he has to be a head coach and not a manager. This precludes the likes of Moyes, Pearson and possibly even Monk (insert any successful manager) as they are all their own men and would insist on running the club their way. This includes recruitment, which I feel is a fairly important part of the job. They choose the formation / tactics and surely they would be best placed to decide who would fit in that role. The same Nigel Pearson who had a director of football at Leicester? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Potato / potah-to?? Uncle TFR-Moyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 15 minutes ago, Taxi for Rennie said: Potato / potah-to?? Uncle TFR-Moyes Our next coach is ... a potato ? Could work . Never been done , aithough there was a Swede who managed England . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 It's probably worth mentioning that Guardiola has worked under a Director of Football and a 'head coach' structure (not sure on his title) at both Barcelona and Bayern. It's gone alright, so far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 It is the future of football. I believe Juve have one. Klopp at Dortmund did. Neither are megabucks clubs yet both do rather well...Swansea have a greater structure than just an all powerful manager.those managers who don't adapt probably won't reach the top levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Should we be looking abroad for our next head coach? The model we seem to want to adopt is more Euopean than British. The Prem is full of foreign coaches and there are a number in the Championship as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Rick Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Head Coach vs Manager = Same shit, different smell That's my take on the job title. See similar things at work during re-structures. Slightly different title, but pretty much the same role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 52 minutes ago, jimgoeswest said: It seems to me we have narrowed down the availability of our next 'gaffer' by insisting he has to be a head coach and not a manager. This precludes the likes of Moyes, Pearson and possibly even Monk (insert any successful manager) as they are all their own men and would insist on running the club their way. This includes recruitment, which I feel is a fairly important part of the job. They choose the formation / tactics and surely they would be best placed to decide who would fit in that role. For the head coach role we have an never ending list of sub standard tactically incompetent managers who have all failed and been sacked from previous jobs. Yet we feel they could succeed here, l'm not sure I get that. It does feel like the cheap option. As for our interim manager, What input did he have before SC got the boot. Did he not feel that maybe it might an idea to suggest a different formation three weeks ago? Or maybe suggest some recruitment. It may be that SC was so stubborn he wouldn't listen to anyone else. That is a real leadership failure. Or was it that he didn't want to rock the boat. Either way it feels like a weakness of character. And yet were trusting this guy to resurrect our season. Sometimes the right manager is available at the right time and you need to seize that opportunity. A big part of the managers job is pulling power and their ability to attract good players. We always seem to be fishing for cast offs and hoping for a different outcome. Although it was time to go I applaud SC in his search for superior players. By the way even Man City get snubbed now and then, it's nothing to be embarrassed about. I really hope I'm completely wrong about all this but at the moment I think the club have got it wrong. If our expectations are too high that's fine, lets lower them but stop talking about sustainable football and then in the next breathpremiership football. Apologies Mr Ashton but I don't think this is an 'open' way of gauging 'customer feedback ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 The other thing I'd add is I suspect we're going down this route after learning our lessons when GJ left and the board realised there was nothing in place in terms of long-term infrastructure. Personally I think it's massively risky to place your entire club's planning, staffing and infrastructure in the hands of one person alone and overhaul it each time that manager changes. I'd far rather we had our structure, philosophy and vision for the club enshrined and appoint a head coach/manager who fits in with that vision. For all the clamour for a big name, big names guarantee nothing in football. Brian Clough is arguably the greatest English manager of all time but struggled at Leeds. It all went pear-shaped this season for Mourinho at Chelsea. Countless managers (Paul Jewell, Danny Wilson, Phil Brown, Owen Coyle and George Burely to name a few) were at point desirable 'name' managers based on success at one club that they never really managed to replicate elsewhere. That's not to say previous experience isn't important but the key to recruitment in any organisation, football or not, is to recruit someone who is a good 'fit' - which may or may not be the biggest name or the best experience. PS - Steve Coppell is easily the biggest name we've appointed in my memory. Outside pundits tipped us for promotion based on his presence alone and look how that turned out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul_Trader Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 head coach - manager ..... Its just a name in a box ..... Pembo being tarred with previous manager .... Its always an accusation thrown at any #2 who takes charge. He has been given temporary charge of the team. He is seen as a safe pair of hands. They have told him (as any decent manager would) .... go win games and give us a selection headache. This is a results based business. If he cant get the results it will be there for all to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Where has this perception that big name football managers are totally autocratic come from? Ed Woodward does a lot of the recruitment at United doesn't he? Similar role to Mr. Ashton and they're one of the biggest clubs in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderMB Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 48 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said: It's probably worth mentioning that Guardiola has worked under a Director of Football and a 'head coach' structure (not sure on his title) at both Barcelona and Bayern. It's gone alright, so far as I can tell. A number of the transfers under Guardiola were quite poor. Ibrahimovic being the prime example. They got rid of Eto'o to get him, and Eto'o went on to be an instrumental figure for Inter Milan winning the treble. The last two men to be managers at Ashton Gate did quite well; Gary Johnson and Steve Cotterill. Honestly, I don't have faith in our board to handle transfers, given the shitstorm that was this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 17 minutes ago, EnderMB said: A number of the transfers under Guardiola were quite poor. Ibrahimovic being the prime example. They got rid of Eto'o to get him, and Eto'o went on to be an instrumental figure for Inter Milan winning the treble. The last two men to be managers at Ashton Gate did quite well; Gary Johnson and Steve Cotterill. Honestly, I don't have faith in our board to handle transfers, given the shitstorm that was this summer. So Keith Millen and Derek McInnes weren't managers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Many, many Clubs around the world use a 'Head Coach'...it's nothing new. A manager in it's old fashioned context, would 'Manage' the whole side of the football side of the Club. Think about that for a moment...think how much work that involves. A head coach is appointed purely to coach and make the players better. He doesn't have to get involved in all the other parts of managing the club. It frees up his time immensely and enables him to concentrate 100% on football. Of course he can suggest players and formations....but he has other people analyse, scout, deal with contracts, recruit for him. SC did exactly this...Burt did a lot of the work for him. So I don't know what all the fuss is about. Plenty of managers are used to working like this and actually embrace it as it frees up their time. Mr Ashton has obviously been brought in to help with everything, especially recruitment...which we have struggled with. Seems to be doing ok so far. It's a much better system than having one man...the manger.... do everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EstoniaTallinnRed Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Major Isewater said: Our next coach is ... a potato ? Could work . Never been done , aithough there was a Swede who managed England . And wasn't there a Turnip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grifty Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 I think people read too much into head coach or manager. MA said that it would be more of a collective approach to running various parts of the club. This would leave the head coach more time to spend coaching the players, rather than individually having to scout and research players and teams. its never going to be the case that MA buys players he wants for the head coach to work with. As others as above, it allows us to have continuity with the direction of the club while managers come and go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Major Isewater said: Our next coach is ... a potato ? Could work . Never been done , aithough there was a Swede who managed England . I thought you were going to suggest Spud… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 6 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said: I thought you were going to suggest Spud… Or a 'chip' off the old block ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 MA is a waste of money imo. just as well spend his no doubted decent wedge on a player or six and bring a proven manager at championship level in. Nothing against Pembo and co but exp counts at this level; with MA here who exactly gets the final say on transfers.......SL, same person who did when MA was at Oxford, so pointless appointment.......to many suits not enough players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, glos old boy said: MA is a waste of money imo. just as well spend his no doubted decent wedge on a player or six and bring a proven manager at championship level in. Nothing against Pembo and co but exp counts at this level; with MA here who exactly gets the final say on transfers.......SL, same person who did when MA was at Oxford, so pointless appointment.......to many suits not enough players. The majority of established clubs in the Championship have someone like MA in place. He's exactly the type of person we need in place...When I've referred to not having certain 'infrastructure' in place at this Club, it's exactly this type of appointment that I mean. Not being funny Glos old boy...but I really don't think you understand how 'managers' work at football clubs. They don't have 'total control' as you think. plus chairman/owners just sign off cheques...they don't get 'involved'... Do you think managers in football are all qualified accountants, understand contracts, legalities, complexities of personal contracts....the mind numbingly complex structure of FFP and loans etc. Do you think they work over pro zone and recruitment analytics? All the 'Managers' you speak of, have these people in place to do the work for them....they then consult with them. Obviously the further down the leagues...it gets less and the manager does more. This Club have been amateur in it's set up for years....and it's making headway into appointing the right people to compete at this level. As for your final say on transfers....the head coach will say what he needs for the first team...he will suggest names. The DoF and Recruitment analyst will find players suitable...the three will agree on who to look at. The head scout will appoint scouts to look at them. He will get reports back. Then the head scout and coach will go and watch the player. They will also see whether they can afford the player...look at budgets....the players agent will be indirectly approached and figures 'discussed'. Then a decision is made...approaches made and owner and chairman notified. It's not as straight forward as you seem to think old boy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderMB Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 3 hours ago, View from the Dolman said: So Keith Millen and Derek McInnes weren't managers? IIRC, they were both Head Coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 20 minutes ago, EnderMB said: IIRC, they were both Head Coaches. Wrong. "Bristol City FC have appointed Derek McInnes as their new manager." http://www.bcfc.co.uk.p.preprod.performgroup.com/page/NewsDetail/0,,10327~2487260,00.html "Keith Millen has been appointed the new manager of Bristol City Football Club on a three-year contract." http://www.bcfc.co.uk.p.preprod.performgroup.com/page/NewsDetail/0,,10327~2119553,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 35 minutes ago, glos old boy said: MA is a waste of money imo. just as well spend his no doubted decent wedge on a player or six and bring a proven manager at championship level in. Nothing against Pembo and co but exp counts at this level; with MA here who exactly gets the final say on transfers.......SL, same person who did when MA was at Oxford, so pointless appointment.......to many suits not enough players. Please don't feel I'm singling you out as that's not my intention at all I do think there is an issue in football with people (and, to be honest, in other organisations too) with people not entirely understanding what people do behind the scenes and exactly how boards and the business side works and being quite dismissive as a result. Ultimately any organisation needs a CEO/COO or at least a member of staff who manages the operational side of the business on a day-to-day level. You could argue that should be the manager's role but football is a business these days and football clubs are complex beasts as a result. If the guy in charge of managing and coaching the squad is also in charge of arranging sponsorship deals, merchandise, hiring and firing the people who work in admin roles in the club, overseeing the catering, the facilities and maintenance for the training ground, HR and employee policies and all these other things then that takes significant time away from managing the football team. And it's unlikely you'll find someone who is good at both. Even if the football manager appointed people to take charge of all those things then he would need to oversee all those areas to make sure they were doing what they should be doing. So it's much better to let the football manager/coach manage the football side and appoint a business executive to run the business side of the club. You might say "why don't the board run the business side of the club?" but, certainly in sectors I know of (I don't work in football but presume there's a similarity) the role of a board is to oversee the business rather than to actually run the business. On some boards, individual board members will run particular areas but fundamentally the role of the board is to scrutinise what the people running the business are doing to ensure they are acting in the best interests of shareholders (and potentially fans, employees and anyone else connected to the club). If the board actually run everything then they aren't able to simultaneously scrutinise it as they're too close to the trees to see the wood. Which is why there will be an executive who runs the club and a board to scrutinise what they are doing and ensure the people running the club are meeting the organisation's objectives. Lastly of course the board has a Chair. But again a Chair does not run a football club but runs the board. The reason for this is so the board have leadership in scrutinising what the organisation are doing. Hence the need for an operational executive. Far too often on here I see people saying "why aren't the board doing this?" and "why aren't the board doing that?" but the main reason is that it isn't the board's job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im_over_ere Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 If City go with the Head Coach, one thing that I would like to see is interviews and comments from both the Head Coach and Ashton throughout the year – to see if they are on the same page. Something that frustrated me through the last days of Cotts was how he had to be the sole spokesperson for everything football, formations, academy and transfer activity etc. He was clearly under some pressure, especially with the transfer window, but there was never a statement or interview from Keith Burt or the Board or anyone else. It annoyed me that with the Boards statement of SC departure, they took some credit away by saying last years success was the result of the ‘organization’; but this years failures – well that’s not the organizations, that’s all SC. If we get a Head Coach, I would like to see MA pop up with interviews on transfer windows, player recruitments, the academy etc., and just leave the weekly post match and pre-match for the head coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opeth67 Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Don't disagree, but the majority will still come from the Head Coach/Manager, and as most clubs make very few comments regarding player recruitments, BCFC will be no exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 24 minutes ago, Im_over_ere said: If City go with the Head Coach, one thing that I would like to see is interviews and comments from both the Head Coach and Ashton throughout the year – to see if they are on the same page. Something that frustrated me through the last days of Cotts was how he had to be the sole spokesperson for everything football, formations, academy and transfer activity etc. He was clearly under some pressure, especially with the transfer window, but there was never a statement or interview from Keith Burt or the Board or anyone else. It annoyed me that with the Boards statement of SC departure, they took some credit away by saying last years success was the result of the ‘organization’; but this years failures – well that’s not the organizations, that’s all SC. If we get a Head Coach, I would like to see MA pop up with interviews on transfer windows, player recruitments, the academy etc., and just leave the weekly post match and pre-match for the head coach A lot of that was the CEO leaving though. That's who should really be primarily taking on that role and I'm sure Ashton will be doing it more. What's more, I actually think it's perfectly fair to say last year's success was the result of the organisation - the board approved the spending, the CEO and Keith Burt supported Cotterill to get targets in early, the manager, the coaching staff and players did a great job and it really was an example of everything coming together as a team to deliver success on the pitch. I do accept it was interesting that the board chose to say that in the press release though - part of me does wonder if that was less about the board taking credit but more feeling that other individuals in the club had contributed a lot and weren't getting the credit they deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderup Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Didn't MA state on the GT phone in that 'no player will be signed without the full agreement of the head coach'? He also said he 'doesn't set great creadance on names and titles' IIRC. I wonder if some people have the idea that MA will sign players and tell the coach here he is, do your stuff when, as I understand it, once KB and the head coach identify players to MA, his remit is the financial / contract side necessary to get players to sign and to close the deal. What's wrong with that? It seems a pretty good system to me where the coaching / football side doesn't have to sort contracts and agents out, that's MA's remit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin_unreliant Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, spudski said: When I've referred to not having certain 'infrastructure' in place at this Club, it's exactly this type of appointment that I mean..... This Club have been amateur in it's set up for years.... Except wasn't Pelling doing the same job before he got the boot - how did that work out? I don't think it is so much about the post as the person. Will MA contribute to the organisation getting the right quality recruits into the club. If he does fine. If he is just there to over-ride the 'coach's request for quality players with cheap alternatives that fit into the owner's budget it could be more of an issue for whoever might consider taking the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 6 hours ago, Major Isewater said: a potato ? The obvious choice is therefore @spudski. Is he Russian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.