Aden Flint

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, samo II said:

Sorry, but that is bonkers.

For the record; I think people are being far too hash on Flint, who has actually done well stepping up, but to somehow blame Reid for goals he is two-to-three elements of play removed from, when Flint of far more involved, and who's job it is to remove danger in EXACTLY those circumstance stinks of trying to pass off blame.  Why bring Reid into it here anyway? 

You clearly were not at the game yesterday, as Reid was actually one of the few players taking the game by the stuff of the neck when he came on, and pushing us forward; you want to talk about 'passengers', well Freeman has been one time and time again this year, yet walks into the team, so let's stop this singling out of fringe players, please.

Flint wasn't helped yesterday by the fact Bryan was absolutely terrible; he wasn't even a passenger, but an active liability.  His timidity and inability to recognise when he had didn't have the time for a fancy pass, or to dwell on the ball, meant that Baker was coming out to disrupt the Leeds attacks that targeted his obvious weaknesses, but as is Baker's way, he did so too aggressively, got booked, and he then required replacing.  

This reorganisation left Bryan exploded as Pearce seemed less willing to step out, and meant the whole defence was disorganised, leading to the Leeds goal, not Flint.  You can't even see Bryan in the highlights of their goal as he's so far out of position.

Bryan is a winger, and I hope we NEVER play him in defence again.

I didn't bring up Reid pal, I was responding to 'why does Reid get slated and not Flint' and pointed out that for me it was a cumulative effect over a few games. I also acknowledged his frailties were 2 or 3 phases preceding - Reid cleared his header straight to the man which granted Flint didn't even connect or something along those lines in respect of WBA. And yes, I also acknowledged I was not there and made absolutely no comment in respect of Reid yesterday. 

I wasn't singling out Reid at all and I wasn't looking to deflect from Flint by bringing him up; I responded to a question which raised Reid. As for Reid v Freeman I disagree, but that's a different thread  

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Flinty could do with an experienced old head alongside him IMO - to help him (talk him thro) positioning wise especially - Unsurprisingly he's struggling with the better movement at this level as much as anything IMO

[Davefevs]

Just throwing this out there....

...isn't it that Flint has been inconsistent this season, Rather than not being good enough?  

He's has good games and bad games.  To have good games you have to have ability.  Centre Backs / Halfs are probably at their peak at 28-32, injuries excepted. He's not that experienced, not at this level anyway.

I've seen him be dominated, yet I've seen him dominate.  He has been a threat in the opposition penalty area, but less clinical than last season....maybe under more pressure when taking his chances, as opposed to last season.

He's looked more assured alongside Baker.

I'm not saying he should escape criticism, but at least weigh that up with the positive stuff.  If a lot of you (not all of you) were managers of this small squad, you'd have lost the dressing room in September.

Anyone would think this division was a piece of pi$$!

For what it's worth, I think he's been average overall.

 

[Loco Rojo]

I'm sure if we had a magic wand we'd replace every single one of our squad with better players, however, reality isn't like that so we work with what we have and develop the players we have. The guys need our support and need to be given the chance to improve - it can be done but will take time and IF we don't manage it this year and IF we do go down, we do so with a squad that has a season of Championship experience to tackle League 1 with and no doubt will have learnt a lot. Nothing to do with rose tinted glasses - it's just a case of some just choose to focus their passion in different ways rather than starting threads criticising our lads. Not everyone chooses to agree with your original point of view but again, nothing to do with RTG's. 

[samo II]

14 minutes ago, 29AR said:

I didn't bring up Reid pal, I was responding to 'why does Reid get slated and not Flint' and pointed out that for me it was a cumulative effect over a few games. I also acknowledged his frailties were 2 or 3 phases preceding - Reid cleared his header straight to the man which granted Flint didn't even connect or something along those lines in respect of WBA. And yes, I also acknowledged I was not there and made absolutely no comment in respect of Reid yesterday. 

I wasn't singling out Reid at all and I wasn't looking to deflect from Flint by bringing him up; I responded to a question which raised Reid. As for Reid v Freeman I disagree, but that's a different thread  

 

Fair enough.

But you called Reid a passenger; well, based on the last two games, that is exactly what Freeman is, and has been in the majority of games this season - of all the players to appear in our midfield yesterday, Freeman was the weakest; I'd play anyone from the unfit Wagstaff to terrible-yesterday Bryan in his place, as he looks devoid of confidence, not athletic enough, and lacking the smarts to find the forward passing his postion demands.  If he wasn't a City player already, I doubt anyone would want us to buy him, based on his recent games.

Reid did everything he is slated for well yesterday (winning the ball, making smart and swift passes, getting into the box), so maybe we should give him a break for once.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, samo II said:

Fair enough.

But you called Reid a passenger; well, based on the last two games, that is exactly what Freeman is, and has been in the majority of games this season - of all the players to appear in our midfield yesterday, Freeman was the weakest; I'd play anyone from the unfit Wagstaff to terrible-yesterday Bryan in his place, as he looks devoid of confidence, not athletic enough, and lacking the smarts to find the forward passing his postion demands.  If he wasn't a City player already, I doubt anyone would want us to buy him, based on his recent games.

Reid did everything he is slated for well yesterday (winning the ball, making smart and swift passes, getting into the box), so maybe we should give him a break for once.

I stand by 'carrying him' but that's meant really because of how we play than a dig at him or his abilities. 

He gets dragged back and asked to do the defensive work, which is not in his makeup - nor should it be I would hasten to add.

I think when he's in our third of the pitch defending, which he's asked to do far too much in what I've seen, I do worry and he's a danger to us in my opinion. And that's to do with his frailty, inexperience and (in the games I've seen) misjudged clearances which put us under pressure. 

If he was told stay around the half way line and use his attacking prowess ready to counter, even when we are on the back foot I think he'd look substantially better; but I don't see us taking that gamble. 

[Chairman Mao]

No problem with flint, or nearly as much as little (not a defender) Ayling (not really sure what he is, but it aint a defender) Bryan (certainly not a defender) and Williams (a defender but L1 level)

[Shtanley]

I don't think Flint has been as bad as all of you are saying. Bare in mind it's his first time playing in the championship. He's made a few mistakes and should have more goals but I think he's been sound most games. Burnley at home I remember him bullying Andre gray all day. Flint with baker is good enough for me. Remember how long it took us to find a good centre back the last time we were in the championship. 

[samo II]

14 minutes ago, 29AR said:

I stand by 'carrying him' but that's meant really because of how we play than a dig at him or his abilities. 

He gets dragged back and asked to do the defensive work, which is not in his makeup - nor should it be I would hasten to add.

I think when he's in our third of the pitch defending, which he's asked to do far too much in what I've seen, I do worry and he's a danger to us in my opinion. And that's to do with his frailty, inexperience and (in the games I've seen) misjudged clearances which put us under pressure. 

If he was told stay around the half way line and use his attacking prowess ready to counter, even when we are on the back foot I think he'd look substantially better; but I don't see us taking that gamble. 

Are we talking about Freeman here? 

Because you've just described him, ignoring the inexperienced part.

Reid isn't a defensive midfielder; I'll concede that.  But against WBA he was being asked to perform that role, wth Freeman ahead of him.  Yesterday he had the ever-impressive Smith and increasingly authoritative Pack there supporting him, and did far more than Freeman when he is in a similar postion.

I've watched our last two games, though missed the Middlesborough game when Reid started essentially in place of Freeman, but I repeat; across them, I've seen nothing that places Freeman above Reid in the pecking order for me.

Freeman is playing without confidence, while Reid looks less inhibited, which may lead to him losing the ball more from attempting to put us on the front foot, but by God; at least he is trying to do that, rather than cautiously retaining possession at all costs like Freeman.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

3 hours ago, EmersonsRed said:

Time for some to take the rose tinted glasses off. Lovely bloke, passionate and fantastic last season but he is nowhere near good enough for this level. Really, really a bad defender. Shame really.

I disagree, yes he does not posses the same attributes as say Ayling who is smaller and more agile, mobile but he does posses hight, power, and very good ball control for a guy of such hight.  I think where he ends up looking bad is when he's the last defender against a mobile forward and I think that is the problem.  If we are going to play a big player you need to make sure that Ayling, is the last man but he's invariably has a tendency to get forward so you end up with Flint exposed, its a consequence I feel of there not being enough creativity up front and goals, if that is rectified then I think he is more than capable at this level as long as you stick to the tried and tested formula of the big guy not being your last line of defence.

I think having a big centre half on balance adds more to the defence than it takes away, but as long as you have discipline and at time we have been a bit all over the place possibly with the chopping and changing that keeps going on.

[JoeAman08]

The Leeds commentators were very complimentary of Flint yesterday. I think Flint and Baker are a very capable duo that get let down by the poor defending of others. We are actually very strong with those two and Smith and Pack in front. We get beat on the wings time and time again. We need a new LB and Ayling needs to learn when to attack and when to not take the risk a bit better. 

I think if we go down, someone will take the punt on Flint. I think he's definately good enough just not blessed with pace and why we have conceded so many. Good defensive full backs and I think he's a rock. Can't believe he gets slated for the Rondon goal. Sure he was a little out of position but he got beat by a premier league cross, premier league touch and a premier league finish. Give credit to Rondon there as well. As was stated before he's usually gobbling that up but it was pretty much perfect from an attacking stand point. 

[Goatersfloater]

Different people see different things, hence why I love this forum

But for me Flinty has been pretty steady so far this season

If the worst was to happen and we go down I am 99% sure someone would want him in their team in the Championship!

You Reds!! 

 

 

[Guest]

In all fairness against MBoro Reid was excellent, and in the games when he stepped in for Freeman after his red he also did well.

Nonetheless I respectfully would rather Freeman than Reid because I think his defensive frailties, lapses in concentration etc are much worse (accept you may disagree). I'd put all those down to experience, but I don't think we can afford to give him that at this time. 

But I also do fear there is a danger of doing to Freeman what McInnes did to Fontaine.

Personally, I think our better bet would have been to find a short term replacement for that position. 

Anyway back on topic, 'yay for Flint'  

[Goatersfloater]

1 minute ago, JoeAman08 said:

The Leeds commentators were very complimentary of Flint yesterday. I think Flint and Baker are a very capable duo that get let down by the poor defending of others. We are actually very strong with those two and Smith and Pack in front. We get beat on the wings time and time again. We need a new LB and Ayling needs to learn when to attack and when to not take the risk a bit better. 

I think if we go down, someone will take the punt on Flint. I think he's definately good enough just not blessed with pace and why we have conceded so many. Good defensive full backs and I think he's a rock. Can't believe he gets slated for the Rondon goal. Sure he was a little out of position but he got beat by a premier league cross, premier league touch and a premier league finish. Give credit to Rondon there as well. As was stated before he's usually gobbling that up but it was pretty much perfect from an attacking stand point. 

I could not agree more! 

[Jack Dawe]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

Flint is a "head it and kick it"  merchant and a typical League 1 defender. He, along with others has been found out at Championship level. 

Players,like managers have a level at which they perform best and Flints is League 1.

There was a thread recently about ball carrying defenders and neither Flint or Baker have the skills to do that. 

 

Defenders carrying the ball upfield caused us all sorts of problems earlier on this season.

Robert Huth is a "kick it and head it" merchant.

How much Premier League football had Wes Morgan played before last season? What were Leicester fans saying about him this time last year?

The thing is, we can never know what any one player is capable of doing in the future. We can only guess. And that includes football coaches and managers.

I'd like to see Flint with Pearson managing him. Then decide (or make my guess at) what he is capable of

[Jack Dawe]

If one of the characteristics of a class defender is "staying on your feet" and not committing yourself, you have to wonder how Nathan Baker has played top class football. He should be made to wash his own shorts. By hand.

[Lack of Action Man]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

Flint is a "head it and kick it"  merchant and a typical League 1 defender. He, along with others has been found out at Championship level. 

Players,like managers have a level at which they perform best and Flints is League 1.

There was a thread recently about ball carrying defenders and neither Flint or Baker have the skills to do that. 

 

Indeed I started that thread. I agree with your opening paragraph. Flint is out of his depth at this level. Baker is adequate without being brilliant.

I think it is patently obviously that at this level you need more to your game than a big frame and passion. You need a certain amount of ball playing ability but even MORE importantly you need a footballing brain. The ability to recognize dangerous areas on the pitch and shut them down.

[Jack Dawe]

In 12/13, people were justifiably angry that we had too many over paid players that didn't care enough, or at all. If we somehow escape relegation, it'll be Flint's attitude, and the group attitude, that makes the difference. It's not the players responsibility for our failure to recruit adequately

[Offside]

Overall I think Flint has been ok this season and on a par with lots of our opponents' defenders. He still looks much better than the shaky looking player he seemed to be in his first season with us. 

[Robbored]

20 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Defenders carrying the ball upfield caused us all sorts of problems earlier on this season.

Robert Huth is a "kick it and head it" merchant.

How much Premier League football had Wes Morgan played before last season? What were Leicester fans saying about him this time last year?

The thing is, we can never know what any one player is capable of doing in the future. We can only guess. And that includes football coaches and managers.

I'd like to see Flint with Pearson managing him. Then decide (or make my guess at) what he is capable of

Comparing Huth with Flint is laughable for a start. Sure Huth can and does "head it and kick it" from time to time but also has very decent footballing skills. Flint lacks those footballing skills. That why Huth has played in the PL for so long.

In my view you can't turn a pigs ear into a silk purse and regardless of who the manager is Flints skills levels won't improve. Maybe some quality coaching would help with positioning and encouraging him to "keep it simple" and keep his passes short, rather than hoofing forward like he tends to do. 

[samo II]

1 hour ago, 29AR said:

In all fairness against MBoro Reid was excellent, and in the games when he stepped in for Freeman after his red he also did well.

Nonetheless I respectfully would rather Freeman than Reid because I think his defensive frailties, lapses in concentration etc are much worse (accept you may disagree). I'd put all those down to experience, but I don't think we can afford to give him that at this time. 

But I also do fear there is a danger of doing to Freeman what McInnes did to Fontaine.

Personally, I think our better bet would have been to find a short term replacement for that position. 

Anyway back on topic, 'yay for Flint'  

You're seeing what you want to in respect of the relative culpability of Freeman/Reid defensively.

Yes; against WBA Reid's header lands with Dawson, but watch it again and you see that a few yards from Reid making this header is Freeman, who has come back with play, but totally failed to go with the runner who closes Reid, forcing him to make a header (the lad falls over a tbf, but Reid can't know this).  

After this, Wagstaff closes Dawson, who plays a pressure-free one-two with a player to his right (who again was not adequately hassled), and subsiquently makes a good cross which Rondon scores from.

Your 'passenger' comment essentially damns Reid for actually being proactive, as opposed to Freeman for doing nothing, and then attaches blame to him for a cross that takes place a full phase later; I can't accept that as a balanced assessment - it's stacking the deck against him; by your assessment he could be held responsible for anything, as long as he touched the ball sometime before.

Yesterday Leeds' goal came from down the left, where both Freemam and Bryan we playing; this is no coincidence, as both were poor.  Freeman was also less dynamic in possession compared to Reid (and many others), so that has me thinking he needs a time on the sidelines.

And I see no correlation between Fontaine's loss of form and Freeman's situation; if a player is not positively contributing, you drop him.  One of the biggest errors SC made was his inability to do just this, so let's not keep repeating the same issues.  

You say we've no time to play Reid into form, well what the hell are/have we been doing with Freeman all season?  Time for someone else to get their chance.

[Jack Dawe]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Comparing Huth with Flint is laughable for a start. Sure Huth can and does "head it and kick it" from time to time but also has very decent footballing skills. Flint lacks those footballing skills. That why Huth has played in the PL for so long.

In my view you can't turn a pigs ear into a silk purse and regardless of who the manager is Flints skills levels won't improve. Maybe some quality coaching would help with positioning and encouraging him to "keep it simple" and keep his passes short, rather than hoofing forward like he tends to do. 

I think I have highlighted weaknesses in your post, sir, which is why you haven't addressed them all, and you have resorted to using terms like "laughable." Shaky ground, sir! 

Robert Huth has "very decent footballing skills"? Footballing skills? Very decent footballing skills? Did you see his free-kick last night on MOTD? Did you see him fall over the other week on MOTD when turned and beaten for pace? Do you think Pulis took him to Stoke for his "footballing skills"?

Huth is a "head it and kick it" merchant, I'd say. A PL one. And there's a place for "head it and kick it" merchants in the Championship, I'd say. And I don't know on the basis of less than one season whether Flint can be a Championship head it and kick it merchant, but I'd like to see what the next head coach can get out of him.

None of us know what is the very best these players are capable of being

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

He's not bad I think, but technically nah. In the 3-5-2...Williams and Ayling were more technical more ball playing, carried the ball forward more so.

Whereas Flint seemed to me to be more the stopper...never that technical but solid CB alongside a pacy ball playing centre back seems a way to go.

[WolfOfWestStreet]

Maybe if we coached our players better they'd improve? 

Or do we just expect them to get better and better every year on their own or throw them in the bin?

look at Wes Morgan at Leicester, middle of the road championship defender now sitting on the top of the premier league. Someone has worked with him, it's not always about natural talent!! 

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

look at Wes Morgan at Leicester, middle of the road championship defender now sitting on the top of the premier league. Someone has worked with him, it's not always about natural talent!! 

Morgan has almost certainly learnt from being surrounded by quality defenders. Seeing what they do, what decisions they make and copied them. That said - in order to do that you need to have a wider skill set than Flint has.

[Taylor10]

Really harsh to single out Flint. We all know he's limited but he has been pretty consistent this season and is usually solid. He has made a few mistakes but in general he's been pretty solid and without doubt one of our more consistent performers.

Bit unnecessary to dig him out in all honesty.

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Really harsh to single out Flint. We all know he's limited but he has been pretty consistent this season and is usually solid. He has made a few mistakes but in general he's been pretty solid and without doubt one of our more consistent performers.

Bit unnecessary to dig him out in all honesty.

This thread is not about having a "dig" at Flint but about recognising that Flint and certain other City first teamers have been found out by the better quality opposition in the Championship.

All of my comments on this thread are my honest assessment of Flints ability - not personal jibes.

[Nogbad the Bad]

10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Morgan has almost certainly learnt from being surrounded by quality defenders. Seeing what they do, what decisions they make and copied them. That said - in order to do that you need to have a wider skill set than Flint has.

Imo, Flint has looked comfortable in the majority of games this season and in some he's been outstanding. Some errors and underpar performances can be pinpointed over the course of 28 games, of course, but the same could be done for any player at any level.

I see from your comment above you have put yourself forward as the resident expert on the 'skill sets' required by centre backs at various levels, so perhaps the rest of us should shut up and bow to your superior knowledge.

On the other hand, it's interesting to note that Flint is highly regarded away from the confines of this forum, and that opposition fans and commentators regularly single him out out for praise as one of City's most accomplished players.

A player, in fact, many of them view with envious eyes and would be more than happy to see wearing their colours..

Flint will be playing his football in the Championship next season if he wants to, whether BCFC are there or not.

 

[Robbored]

40 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Flint will be playing his football in the Championship next season if he wants to, whether BCFC are there or not.

 

I'm not convinced about that whether City are there or not. A new manager will appointed soon and he'll have his own ideas about what players to retain or release...

[BCFC Grim]

Since SC has gone, and we've changed how we set up, how busy has our Goalkeeper been?

Boro he had **** all to do. The same could be said for Leeds and WBA. The defence is not the problem atm. Creating and taking chances is.