Pushing, pulling, holding in the penalty area.

[Tipps69]

Just watching MOTD2 & the Leicester Vs West Ham game.........

Where do you stand on the long standing problem of the wrestling in the penalty area that has taken over the game in the last season or so?

What in your opinion needs to be done to combat this problem?

While agree that the referee is more than entitled & should give a penalty for all offences, it seems a little strange to me that this referee has decided to wait until this particular game & also so late into the game to give the penalty, the same offences had been occurring throughout the game & he could / should have given penalties far earlier in the game.

Players have got used to this way of defending & have got away with it for far too long & it should have been combatted from the first offence of the season & this would have put a stop to it happening but what is the way forward now?

Do the FA / FL put out a directive warning all clubs that this is to be stamped out as of now? Or for the balance of fairness, do they wait until the season ends before making a point of their intentions to do anything about it? Or do we just allow it to be done on a "common sense" basis & each referee to deal with it as they see fit?

My view is that it should have been dealt with at the start of the problem occurring & has now got to the point where it needs stamping out so referees should be penalising these offences at every opportunity!!

And while we're at it, the attempted buying of penalties / yellow cards / red cards from the attacking players throwing themselves towards a defender when otherwise there would be no offence (like Vardy tried doing yesterday).

All this is making a referees job nigh on impossible & something needs to be done to help them deal with these problems.

[Robbored]

One simple way to restrict the physical hurly burly in the penalty box is for the FA to instruct the profession referees body to book players firstly and then a red card should the player re-offend. It should be simple enough once it's introduced. The players will get the message quickly enough, but....the referees governing body would rather tell their officials to book a player for taking off his shirt in celebration........

Tbh it's always gone on. Even at low level football you still get defenders obstructing attackers runs.  I haven't played for 30+ years but can remember it going on back then.

[Steve Watts]

In my opinion the ref should just give a penalty.  Every time.  Players will soon get the message.  I don't think there should be a warning given to anyone, either before or during a game.  As someone said on MOTD2 last night, a referee wouldn't warn players outside the box for this, so why inside? A foul is a foul.  If that results in ten penalties in a game until the players get the message, so be it.  At the end of the day, you look at the pulling and pushing and know and expect that a ref would give a free-kick in the middle of the park for it, so he should do the same in the area.

At the end of the day the referee just needs to do his job and be confident that he can justify the decisions he makes.  People will soon learn...and it'll make for some awesome "both teams to score" betting wins in the meantime!

Where players try to buy penalties, that does make things very difficult for the ref and it is right that retrospective punishment (in my opinion at least a three game ban) should be handed out to anyone adjudged to be guilty of it.

[chipdawg]

If a referee wants to give a penalty for that kind of penalty box contact then fine, but just do it. You can't give a penalty for persistent fouling so it's either a penalty or it's not. For what it's worth, I though some of the contact was penalty-worthy, some wasn't. The most blatant offence was Ogbonna's headlock on Huth which didn't even get a telling off. If referees are going to start clamping down on wrestling in the penalty area, then fine. But they need to be consistent and be prepared to give a lot of penalties before the message gets through

[Portland Bill]

I agree that something has to be done, but It's easy for the pundits and us to talk about these things when we watch replay after replay from various different angles of the incidents. 

The Referee only has one pair of eyes and is at ground level. It's not easy to see everything that goes on, if you don't believe me then go and referee a game, it's nigh on inpossible to pick some of these offences out.

Blocking players off the ball is also an offence, but these same pundits will tell us that it's all part of the game and an acceptable ( and clever) tactic to use!

[downendcity]

I posted about this on the Leicester thread.

Pulling a shirt, holding a player back or a head lock is a foul and in the penalty area is a penalty offence.

How to stop it - simple. No need for changes to the law, or referees being briefed on interpretation, if a ref sees the offence then blow the whistle. If it's in the penalty area and the offence is by an attacker then give a free kick to the defence. If the offence is by a defender then award a penalty kick.

So what if it has gone on for a long time and has become part and parcel of the game, in any other part of the pitch refs would blow up and award a free kick all day long. So what If it means we see umpteen penalties in a game, then so be it, but it will soon put a stop to what is probably the one offence that makes all fans really mad.

In fairness to referees, they probably need 6 pairs of eyes  to spot some of the offences, especially at corners, but surely that's what the referees assistants are for.  If that is not enough, then surely it begs the question as to why technology is not employed to address a problem that referees cannot control.

 

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

In my opinion the ref should just give a penalty.  Every time.  Players will soon get the message.  I don't think there should be a warning given to anyone, either before or during a game.  As someone said on MOTD2 last night, a referee wouldn't warn players outside the box for this, so why inside? A foul is a foul.  If that results in ten penalties in a game until the players get the message, so be it.  At the end of the day, you look at the pulling and pushing and know and expect that a ref would give a free-kick in the middle of the park for it, so he should do the same in the area.

At the end of the day the referee just needs to do his job and be confident that he can justify the decisions he makes.  People will soon learn...and it'll make for some awesome "both teams to score" betting wins in the meantime!

Where players try to buy penalties, that does make things very difficult for the ref and it is right that retrospective punishment (in my opinion at least a three game ban) should be handed out to anyone adjudged to be guilty of it.

Steve, I'm with you re your first para.

When Skrtrl gives away three penalties in a match and Klopp bollocks him and drops him, the message will get across.  I'm a Liverpool fan too, but he is gonna cost us big-time at some point.  Been very lucky so far.

To referees, just start giving penalties, not willy-nilly, but where you see clear grappling, holding etc.  Even better when the ball is nowhere near them.  Defenders have lost the art of trying to mark and watch the ball flight.

Where forwards try to engage a defender by making it look like the other way around, give a free kick, and book the forward.

A few weeks of additional penalties, yellow cards, will see a reaction from managers and players.  There is no incentive to do anything about it.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

Corners are a mess though. You have defenders grabbing forwards and forwards grabbing defenders. If players from both teams are all fouling. What way do you give it? People always highlight the defenders but so often a forward will grab or block another players marker to give him space.

[Malago]

Beware of unforeseen consequences.

if pushing and pulling is eliminated as a form of defending corners, the old fashioned centre forward, who is good in the air and nothing else, will be have free licence and the whole dynamic if the game will change, for the worse IMO.

[downendcity]

7 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

Corners are a mess though. You have defenders grabbing forwards and forwards grabbing defenders. If players from both teams are all fouling. What way do you give it? People always highlight the defenders but so often a forward will grab or block another players marker to give him space.

If referees give free kicks or penalties every time they see an offence, whether  attackers or defenders - then it will soon stop. No one to blame but the players ( or managers and coaches if they are telling players to hold, block and such).

We see it all the time with Flint. Defences cant compete with him so they use illegal means to nullify his threat at set pieces. If a quick player is tripped when he bursts into the penalty area, because the defender cannot keep up with him, then it is a penalty. Why should said defender be allowed to use illegal means to stop a player who has an advantage over him?

It is the same at set pieces - why should defenders, who cannot compete with an attacker in the air , be allowed to nullify that threat by holding him or wresting him to the ground?

There will be excuses left right and centre from authorities, as to why this issue cannot be addressed. but it just needs refs to apply the laws of the game and penalise offences they see.

 

[RedM]

It's a form of cheating just like sticking out a foot would be. The only thing I would say against giving away a penalty is that the attacking player might feel the slightest touch and throw himself to the floor (like some already do) instead of trying to stand his ground and jostle for the ball.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Malago said:

Beware of unforeseen consequences.

if pushing and pulling is eliminated as a form of defending corners, the old fashioned centre forward, who is good in the air and nothing else, will be have free licence and the whole dynamic if the game will change, for the worse IMO.

Don't see that myself.  As defenders against a taller man, you learn to position yourself better, get up slightly earlier etc, and you win the ball.  Peter Crouch and Kevin Francis don't win every header do they?  The delivery needs to miss the first man too....a common grumble!

Teams learned to cope against Stoke in the early days in the Prem.  You learn not to give away needless set plays.  Good players and managers adapt.  Stoke did, (certainly under Hughes) when they realised they'd been worked out.  The game evolves.

[Robbored]

The referee at Leicester yesterday John Moss was getting a right slagging on Talk Sport this morning. The pundits, most of the ex pro footballers defended him as he'd warned Morgan before he awarded the penalty. Fans phoned in and just criticised Moss for being jaw droppingly inconsistant.

Mickey Gray simply asked why Moss had decided to penalise players when the grappling in the box has been going on for decades.   

[downendcity]

10 minutes ago, RedM said:

It's a form of cheating just like sticking out a foot would be. The only thing I would say against giving away a penalty is that the attacking player might feel the slightest touch and throw himself to the floor (like some already do) instead of trying to stand his ground and jostle for the ball.

If this becomes an issue, and referees and their assistants can't pick out offences clearly, then it would seem to be a case for using technology. The fourth official could view on tv, and if it is not clear when live , he could reply immediately to check the incident and alert the ref to any foul play.

If they want to address this problem, they can. Whether they want to is another question.

[BigAl&Toby]

Hang on.

If anything is done I'd guess that our very own Mr Flint would score far fewer goals.

Even Toby & Liam refer to "the dancers" coming up whenever we get a corner. Nothing like a bit of pushing, shoving and holding to get the crowd going.

It'll never change......

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, downendcity said:

 referees and their assistants can't pick out offences clearly, then it would seem to be a case for using technology. The fourth official could view on tv, and if it is not clear when live , he could reply immediately to check the incident and alert the ref to any foul play.

If they want to address this problem, they can. Whether they want to is another question.

Of course they could address the problem. As already posted on this thread its straightforward enough to award a penalty. The referees need to be "encouraged" by their governing body.......

[downendcity]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Of course they could address the problem. As already posted on this thread its straightforward enough to award a penalty. The referees need to be "encouraged" by their governing body.......

When I asked " whether they want to" it was reference to the governing body.

Although I can't see why it needs any encouragement from a governing body for a ref to give a penalty for an offence that any where else on the pitch would be a foul and a free kick.

[RedM]

30 minutes ago, downendcity said:

If this becomes an issue, and referees and their assistants can't pick out offences clearly, then it would seem to be a case for using technology. The fourth official could view on tv, and if it is not clear when live , he could reply immediately to check the incident and alert the ref to any foul play.

If they want to address this problem, they can. Whether they want to is another question.

I do agree with you, but you can argue we don't even have goal line technology at this level to determine whether the ball goes over the line or not. How can we get it for shoving in the box? Wouldn't it make the game very stop/start like rugby when you have to refer everything to the TMO? I really do understand what you are saying, and like your solution but I fear it's not that simple or easy.

what would I do? don't know. Off the top of my head players involved get booked/spoken to depending on the severity. If they do similar again they have to both step off the pitch until after the free kick/corner is taken (keepers excluded). 

 

[ChippenhamRed]

Clearly the problem in this instance is the inconsistency, rather than the offence itself.  Technically Morgan committed a foul, but if this was given as a foul every time we'd probably see 10 penalties a game.  The problem is the referee seemed to adopt a different stance to the accepted norm, although in his defence he did warn the defenders and as such my sympathy for Morgan is limited.

I might be wrong, as I'm not old enough to remember anything earlier than mid-90s, but it seems to me that this sort of jostling at set pieces has increased over the years.  As others have said, it would be easily stamped out by a zero tolerance approach across the game.  You'd have one weekend of carnage and solve the problem forever.  Personally I would take the same stance towards abuse of the referee, but that's another issue.

[downendcity]

18 minutes ago, RedM said:

I do agree with you, but you can argue we don't even have goal line technology at this level to determine whether the ball goes over the line or not. How can we get it for shoving in the box? Wouldn't it make the game very stop/start like rugby when you have to refer everything to the TMO? I really do understand what you are saying, and like your solution but I fear it's not that simple or easy.

what would I do? don't know. Off the top of my head players involved get booked/spoken to depending on the severity. If they do similar again they have to both step off the pitch until after the free kick/corner is taken (keepers excluded). 

 

If the question of holding, pushing and pulling is one they need to address ( which we all know it is) , but the footballing authorities are not prepared to use technology to help resolve the issue, the the only alternative is to make sure referees start dealing with it better.

While referees might not be able to see all offences, if they start penalising all the offences they do see in the box, and give penalties, then will teams and their players be prepared to take the risk of carrying on this illegal behaviour? From the players' point of view, it's OK to keep holding  while there is a strong likelihood of getting away with it, but a completely different scenario for a defender to keep holding in the hope that the ref will miss it, but knowing with absolute certainty that a penalty will be awarded if he does not. 

The problem at the moment is that defenders feel immune from any sanction, even when quite blatantly holding on to opposition players for dear life, because fans can see it clearly game after game. It makes a mockery that a referee is being questioned for waiting until wherever minute of the Leicester game before penalising such an offence - the questioning is because everyone knows it goes on all the time without punishment.

[Cowshed]

Hang on. If anything is done I'd guess that our very own Mr Flint would score far fewer goals ... Possibly. City appear to look to impeded the keeper at set plays.

It does not occur outside of the box because a team will gain no benefit. Inside the box "could" be looked at, but it would be asking the FA to install a Corinthian spirit into football(and fans) that does not exist .

There were threads on here stating Warnock should get the City job = Points by ANY means, its all acceptable. 

It is naïve not to seek to gain an advantage defensively or offensively. Blocking off runners / obstructing / holding etc is a widespread part of set plays and has been for a long time. It is basic fundamental defending.

[Tipps69]

My guess is that the first option open to the referees is to enter the dressing rooms before the game or when he has the captains together before the games & to tell them that any hold / pushing / wrestling in the area will result in a penalty, no further warnings given, they've just had their warning!!

My problem with doing this now, at this stage of the season is that you will get the arguments about why is something being done about it now when each club will argue they should of had X amounts of penalties earlier in the season & this is why I think it maybe easier to enforce this over the summer & everyone starts with a clean slate, so no moaning about being hard done by earlier in the season.

As for the problem of players trying to buy themselves freekicks / penalties by throwing themselves at a defenders challenge, I guess the option is to do what happened to Vardy yesterday & book them!

I'd hazard a guess that Vardy will think twice before doing it again if he knows he's going to get booked / sent off for doing it as this will be a big loss for Leicester now.

What it all boils down to is consistency from the referees though, all of them need to be as hard as each other on all of these offences for them to be able to stamp out the problems.

[cidered abroad]

The football corner kick has become as uncontrollable as a rugby union scrum. It is up to referees to sort it out by awarding penalties and defensive free kicks an the same way that rugby refs should be awarding penalties.

The dark arts of scrums is now football corner kick and must be stamped out without delay.

[22A]

Waiting for a corner to arrive players were holding, pushing & pulling one another as in so many matches every week, when to our surprise the Ref blew his whistle and awarded a penalty.

Surprisingly that penalty was awarded to City when playing here at P'boro' some years ago. AFAIK that's the only occasion I've seen it done.

[Guest]

It's about consistency.

Don't let off misdemeanours at the beginning of the game and then all of a sudden start penalising players later for the same offence. It goes without saying to penalising at the beginning and then letting off later.

Refs not officiating to the same level i.e. some enforcing the rules and others seemingly having a different rule book.

The favouring of one team over the other. This might seem to be the bias of a supporter but I'm pretty sure that others will have watched a match where they are indifferent but have seen one side getting more favourable decisions.

Most professional football players are simple folk and are guided by consistency. When things aren't consistent, they get a little confused.

 

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

7 hours ago, Robbored said:

Of course they could address the problem. As already posted on this thread its straightforward enough to award a penalty. The referees need to be "encouraged" by their governing body.......

It is not just the defenders that are doing it though. Attackers are holding and blocking defenders off to try to get one of their players a free header. We certainly try to do it to get either Flint or Wilbs, when he playing, free.

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

The football corner kick has become as uncontrollable as a rugby union scrum. It is up to referees to sort it out by awarding penalties and defensive free kicks an the same way that rugby refs should be awarding penalties.

The dark arts of scrums is now football corner kick and must be stamped out without delay.

Totally agree and in my opinion Pulis started this off at Stoke.

They were the first team I noticed that under him seemed to have four defenders at set pieces all holding and pulling opponents back simultaneously, making in nigh on impossible for refs to see all the fouling that is going on. Huth, a regular culprit then alongside Shawcross, now does this weekly for Leicester.

As has been mentioned higher up, Skrtel is another serial offender, if he didn't play for Liverpool he'd be penalised far more often.

I'd love to see the first game of next season with four or five penalties given for this, but I'm not holding my breath...

[Lanterne Rouge]

Totally off the wall but what if the referee penalised a player be it attacker or defender by banning them from entering the penalty area for that corner/free kick /whatever? If Wilbs gets pulled for some wrestling when we`re attacking he has to stay in his own half or if Flinty does it when we`re defending he has to stay in their half until the ball goes dead.

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

4 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

Totally off the wall but what if the referee penalised a player be it attacker or defender by banning them from entering the penalty area for that corner/free kick /whatever? If Wilbs gets pulled for some wrestling when we`re attacking he has to stay in his own half or if Flinty does it when we`re defending he has to stay in their half until the ball goes dead.

Like it but in some games the penalty area could be empty at some corners

[Lanterne Rouge]

8 minutes ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Like it but in some games the penalty area could be empty at some corners

Would make a few sit up and take notice though wouldn`t it?