Tomlin - all good?

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

So the likes of Kenny Dalglish harried and put a foot in but you are saying Tomlin doesn't have to because it is not his strength? What nonsense, have a look at the Norwich game as an example, their right back was up and down that wing like a yo yo, why? Because he didn't need to worry too much about his side of the park defensively and he wasn't being tracked effectively.

What? Tomlin was playing as number 10 for a start so wasn't even against their right back. That'll have been O'Dowda.

Even Johnson acknowledges Tomlin's limitations. Last season he made comments to the effect of only being able to 'afford one player' like Tomlin in the team. You have him in the side, not for his defensive capabilities, but his potential for brilliance. 

[cheshire_red]

That may have been the starting formation, it didn't last long, LT spent a lot of time on the left.

[Phileas Fogg]

14 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

That may have been the starting formation, it didn't last long, LT spent a lot of time on the left.

Did you go to the game? I didn't, but can't imagine any other of our players filling in at number 10. Going from the commentary, he didn't move positions at all unless he did when subs were made in the second half. 

Anyway, I still don't quite grasp your point. Tomlin is a totally different player to Dalglish, just like Tomlin is a totally different player to Flint. You can't say that because Dalglish used to be tenacious and chased down defenders, Tomlin must do otherwise he's not giving 100% effort. If Johnson instructed him to, I'm sure he would. But Johnson rightly knows it's pointless as he might not be very good at it and it would waste his energy. I'm certain he doesn't instruct him to and instead lets Tomlin be Tomlin; creating chances with his creativity and brilliance in possession.

[RedRaw]

26 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

 Tomlin is in the top 5-10% of the players in the Championship in ability and talent

 

33 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

Could Tomlin honestly say he has given 100% of everything he has had available in his locker in these first four games of the season? No I don't believe he could.

 class players always give 100%, it is often what makes a player of equal ability to another stand out from the other.

 

7 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

Where?

So you rank him within the top 5-10% in this division for ability and talent...a class player in this division no?

then suggest he hasn't given 100% on the first four games yet suggest that class players always give 100%

its all a little confusing logic.

the guy has been played in an unnatural position to accommodate two strikers, we have won three of those four games and although he hasn't hit the spotlight yet, he has contributed. He would be more effective if he were played as the number 10 behind the two strikers

 

 

[cheshire_red]

Ok so forget his instructions, what he does and doesn't do on the pitch. He still couldn't honestly say he had given 100% in any competitive match this season. That isn;t this mythical 'lack of form' it is wholly lack of application.

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

Ok so forget his instructions, what he does and doesn't do on the pitch. He still couldn't honestly say he had given 100% in any competitive match this season. That isn;t this mythical 'lack of form' it is wholly lack of application.

Did you go to the Norwich game then? 

What does 'giving 100%' mean to you then? To me, broadly speaking, it means carrying out instructions given to him by the management. What does it mean to you?

[RedRaw]

1 minute ago, cheshire_red said:

Ok so forget his instructions, what he does and doesn't do on the pitch. He still couldn't honestly say he had given 100% in any competitive match this season. That isn;t this mythical 'lack of form' it is wholly lack of application.

Wow......maybe you should pop on Twitter and ask him or better still, pop on LJ's Twitter and ask him why he keeps picking a player who lacks application and clearly isn't giving 100% 

[cheshire_red]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Did you go to the Norwich game then? 

What does 'giving 100%' mean to you then? To me, broadly speaking, it means carrying out instructions given to him by the management. What does it mean to you?

You don't know what he is or isn't instructed to do by the management do you, neither do I. The simple fact is he hasn't performed anywhere near the best of his ability in any of the matches this season has he. He has done a lot of moaning at team mates and officials. If he channeled his energies in to giving his all I and others wouldn't be questioning his application would we.

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

You don't know what he is or isn't instructed to do by the management do you, neither do I. The simple fact is he hasn't performed anywhere near the best of his ability in any of the matches this season has he. He has done a lot of moaning at team mates and officials. If he channeled his energies in to giving his all I and others wouldn't be questioning his application would we.

You haven't answered either question, did you go to the Norwich game (so as to be able to say he played on the left despite the team graphic and commentary suggesting otherwise)? What does Tomlin giving 100% mean to you?

Ok, we don't 'know' his instructions, but I think most people on here who see games can take a pretty educated guess based on his attributes and previous performances. The same way we don't 'know' his instructions, how do you 'know' he isn't giving his all? What does giving his all mean to you? 

[And Its Smith]

So there is no such thing as form then @cheshire_red just lack of application?

 

[FlintWonderwall]

2 hours ago, cheshire_red said:

That may have been the starting formation, it didn't last long, LT spent a lot of time on the left.

True, the front 4 all seemed to rotate

[AshtonGreat]

6 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

It's ridiculous to start talking about form before it's even the Aug bank holiday.

Football doesn't truly start until we actually need our scarves and a £6 Pasty seems like a fair shout.

Lee T will back me up on this.

So will they lower the ticket prices until then?

[Guest]

Maybe he proved his point to Bournemuff and LJ last season and earned what he has now got....a contract; he now is not so bothered and is just going through the motions. Saying that he could well be up for showing Newcastle and Villa who he is.

I think Tammy has stolen his superstar mantle in the fans eyes and he is miffed.

[Meh]

So to get slightly back on topic - accepting the fact he is somewhere between 90 and 100% maybe ?!?! 

What does a number 10 mean? Genuine question as I freely admit formations etc is for students of the game and I'm keen to learn.

I always thought a number 10 was a player who played in the hole behind one number 9 and linked up play high up the pitch as the second forward but above we are talking a number 10 behind 2 strikers so obviously my understanding is well off !!

What formation can allow that and still give some width? We still also seem to leave big gaps between midfield and attack which would maybe be bridged with Lee dropping off to hold the ball up to give the chance for runners to join - this was happening last year and worked OK as we did seem to pressure the final third a lot more than we are now - kodjia was missing more chances on his own than we even create currently !! So should Lee be dropping off more and trying to influence from just inside the oppositions half which I'm guessing is not a normal 10 role?

confused.com

[spudski]

Watch the highlights on here of the Norwich game.

Watch Tomlin from 3.45...goes storming after player, then gives up, expects someone else to do his job. Allows players so much room, and cross almost leads to goal.

In fairness though...that space just in front of the RB position was left by many of our players...many times not tracking back and allowing their players free space and time.

At 3.04 Kodge also just leaves his man in the same position.

If you are going to play Tomlin and give him freedom of movement then he and others have to do their defensive duties as well...otherwise the whole team gets out of shape and position and you end up blaming one another for losing players when marking.

.

 

[Carey 6]

17 minutes ago, Neo said:

So to get slightly back on topic - accepting the fact he is somewhere between 90 and 100% maybe ?!?! 

What does a number 10 mean? Genuine question as I freely admit formations etc is for students of the game and I'm keen to learn.

I always thought a number 10 was a player who played in the hole behind one number 9 and linked up play high up the pitch as the second forward but above we are talking a number 10 behind 2 strikers so obviously my understanding is well off !!

What formation can allow that and still give some width? We still also seem to leave big gaps between midfield and attack which would maybe be bridged with Lee dropping off to hold the ball up to give the chance for runners to join - this was happening last year and worked OK as we did seem to pressure the final third a lot more than we are now - kodjia was missing more chances on his own than we even create currently !! So should Lee be dropping off more and trying to influence from just inside the oppositions half which I'm guessing is not a normal 10 role?

confused.com

Lee Tomlin plays best as a trequartista. 

[Port Said Red]

How many games have we played? How much has changed in his life? Recently married moved to a new town, new team mates etc etc. There's no panic yet surely?

I noticed against Wigan that getting Tammy on the pitch seemed to get him in the game more, he spends a lot of time trying to get Jimi to play closer to him. 

[reddogkev]

Well that was an interesting debate to sink my teeth into, to be fair, Cheshire Red certainly stuck to his guns!

I haven't seen a City game yet this season, but I can tell you that one of the attractions for me on Saturday will be watching the sublime skills of Tomlin.  I fancy him to score his first against the Geordies, and then see an improved period of 'form' over the next month or so.

[WhistleHappy]

8 hours ago, Thatwasclose said:

This thread is full of excuses, 

Say hi to Cole for me..

[Cowshed]

Traditionally number tens Neo played in midfield. The number ten being alluded to plays in the pocket between midfield and the forward/forwards between the lines where there is space, moving North South, East west etc, where he wants. That looks to be Tomlins best position. Tieing him down one side into a more rigid team shape looks to be ineffective. Got some coaching badges, not a student of the game, sure Mr Johnson knows more and will get the best out of the player with time.

[AshtonGreat]

7 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Did you go to the Norwich game then? 

What does 'giving 100%' mean to you then? To me, broadly speaking, it means carrying out instructions given to him by the management. What does it mean to you?

Are you suggesting that his instructions from the management are to not create anything in the first four matches?

I would argue that if he doesn't perform against Newcastle, it's time to drop him.

[Super]

Some players take longer than others at the start of the season, Have no worries about Tomlin he will start to produce hopefully starting on Saturday.

[Robin1988]

8 hours ago, cheshire_red said:

Not at all, what I am saying is players should always give 100% of what they have, the fact is they don't and we all know that, Could Tomlin honestly say he has given 100% of everything he has had available in his locker in these first four games of the season? No I don't believe he could. It's like the saying form is temporary, class is permanent, I disagree, class players always give 100%, it is often what makes a player of equal ability to another stand out from the other.

What are you on about? If a striker who's confident and scoring goals is more likely to convert a chance when he gets it, form exists.

i.e it does.

[Major Isewater]

9 hours ago, Thatwasclose said:

This thread is full of excuses, 

Sorry .

[Dastardly and Muttley]

The problem's obvious: Tammy got a song after just one appearance, Lee wants a song!

Altogether now, Tomlin is a....

[Buckeyed]

I can only judge based on the Wigan game, however whenever he was on the ball there were 2-3 players closing him down - it was clear the opposition realised he was a huge threat so didn't give him time on the ball. This in turn gave other players much more time on the ball as Wigan were pulled out of formation.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

1 hour ago, WhistleHappy said:

Say hi to Cole for me..

Has he changed his name?

[Phileas Fogg]

3 hours ago, Neo said:

So to get slightly back on topic - accepting the fact he is somewhere between 90 and 100% maybe ?!?! 

Don't think it went off topic really, just branched off - on a related theme - after CR's point.

3 hours ago, Neo said:

What does a number 10 mean? Genuine question as I freely admit formations etc is for students of the game and I'm keen to learn.

I always thought a number 10 was a player who played in the hole behind one number 9 and linked up play high up the pitch as the second forward but above we are talking a number 10 behind 2 strikers so obviously my understanding is well off !!

I personally have never understood it in that way. I've never thought it matters whether there was 1 striker or 3 strikers in front of a number 10.

I've always seen a number 10 as the main central creative player in a team, playing in attacking midfield but with a bit of freedom to do what they want to make things happen. I may be totally wrong about that though.

 

 

[shamussy]

I think it's a classic case with the creative type of player like him. They bring the ability to produce a moment that can create a goal from nothing and unlock tight games. The downside is that they never can consistently influence games. 

Even the best players of that ilk eg. Gazza, were inconsistent. Let's say you try to lob an opponent before volleying into the top corner. You will try this as you think that fast but is incredibly difficult skill so likely to not come off. 

I love to watch him play and try things and when they come off you have to just marvel. At the same time accepting it may seem like he is absent in games has to go with it. It's why creative midfielders split managers and a pulis type wouldn't want him around whereas a martinez type would.

Just that he is thinking of the extraordinary and has the skill to pull it off is what makes it exciting. 

[DirtySanchez]

I just hope we don't overuse Tammy too much and get our 20-goal Kodjia back up front as soon as possible. No disrespect to Tammy - he has started off superbly, he is a great player, full of energy and pace, but the Championship is a hard league. We need him to be used as an impact sub (60 mins sub) in my opinion, bed him in, with the same formation as last season up top.

I have no qualms with resting either Kodjia or Tammy and swapping roles but I would rather see either one playing on their own in their own position. We can't ignore the fact Kodjia got his goals playing up front on his own. I would also like to see Tammy in Codgers position at present out wider - aka dare I say Rashford - to see what would happen with his pace in those areas. Also it is easier to slip balls into those channels rather than 'eye of a needle' ball into centre forward.

I wonder with the two up front, it has moved Tomlin out too wide to make his impact. Anyway we are only a few games into the season - I expect Tomlin to make a great contribution this season, but would like to see him 'roam' to do what he wants. I think the team are still learning about each other and finding their roles. COYRs!!