BrizzleBelter Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Just to think some was saying Freeman was better and worth more..... Nothing against Freeman and maybe at the time was in good form but come on really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 4 hours ago, Cowshed said: It's not seen as cheating abroad... Having been involved in taking kids teams to Denmark and the Netherlands its is looked upon with disgust in other cultures as well. Its cheating, unless you could indicate where in the rules of the game diving and feigning injury is accommodated. Having to tell kids to stop feigning injury, screaming loudly and writhing around without cause and diving because they have seen pros do it should not be part of football. There should be no condoning of that. None of that at all. Ali's deserved cheating reputation here in England will not benefit Spurs. Maybe I should have said...'many other parts of the world'....funnily lots of 'Latin', 'Arab', 'African' and Meditteranean type cultures seem prone to seeing 'being clever' as not cheating. Have seen it myself so many times when coaching and working abroad. When you see Italian youth coach's encouraging it, you soon realise we are fighting a losing battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 4 hours ago, Cowshed said: It's not seen as cheating abroad... Having been involved in taking kids teams to Denmark and the Netherlands its is looked upon with disgust in other cultures as well. Its cheating, unless you could indicate where in the rules of the game diving and feigning injury is accommodated. Having to tell kids to stop feigning injury, screaming loudly and writhing around without cause and diving because they have seen pros do it should not be part of football. There should be no condoning of that. None of that at all. Ali's deserved cheating reputation here in England will not benefit Spurs. Northern Europe is different to Southern Europe, Latin America etc in that respect. Totally different actually almost beyond comparison when it comes to footballing 'ethics'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 12 minutes ago, spudski said: Maybe I should have said...'many other parts of the world'....funnily lots of 'Latin', 'Arab', 'African' and Meditteranean type cultures seem prone to seeing 'being clever' as not cheating. Have seen it myself so many times when coaching and working abroad. When you see Italian youth coach's encouraging it, you soon realise we are fighting a losing battle. It is not a losing battle when diving and feigning injury is viewed as unacceptable cheating. Coaches and parents loathe it. It is not part of the FA's four corners or associated coaching qualifications. Any coach who tries to justify cheating to a parent, or attempts to coach cheating should be reported to the local FA - They are ignoring the social and psychological values of coaching. Ali's cheating ... No place for it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 29 minutes ago, Cowshed said: It is not a losing battle when diving and feigning injury is viewed as unacceptable cheating. Coaches and parents loathe it. It is not part of the FA's four corners or associated coaching qualifications. Any coach who tries to justify cheating to a parent, or attempts to coach cheating should be reported to the local FA - They are ignoring the social and psychological values of coaching. Ali's cheating ... No place for it here. I agree...I don't like it either, but it is a losing battle when so many parts of the world except and encourage it. Fine if we do the right thing in this country, but it won't stop with so many foreign managers, coach's and players here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, spudski said: I agree...I don't like it either, but it is a losing battle when so many parts of the world except and encourage it. Fine if we do the right thing in this country, but it won't stop with so many foreign managers, coach's and players here. It only becomes a losing battle when a laissez faire attitude to cheating becomes universal. It has not in numerous countries. Till then Alli more than a decent player but a ****! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 15 minutes ago, spudski said: I agree...I don't like it either, but it is a losing battle when so many parts of the world except and encourage it. Fine if we do the right thing in this country, but it won't stop with so many foreign managers, coach's and players here. Lots of Latin American players in particular come from really poor backgrounds and the win at all costs mentality is just instinct - such is their desperation to better themselves and get a better life for their families. To them, as you say, it's not 'cheating' just cleverness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: Lots of Latin American players in particular come from really poor backgrounds and the win at all costs mentality is just instinct - such is their desperation to better themselves and get a better life for their families. To them, as you say, it's not 'cheating' just cleverness. Which is not relevant to a player born in Milton Keynes. Cheating is no instinct. Unless you believe children emerge from the womb with a innate ability to hit the deck when in sight of the penalty spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 11 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Which is not relevant to a player born in Milton Keynes. Cheating is no instinct. Unless you believe children emerge from the womb with a innate ability to hit the deck when in sight of the penalty spot. Yes I'm by no means saying it's a good thing. Just discussing the reasons why it's more ingrained or acceptable in certain cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixtyseconds Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 MK is third world. This Alli kiddie had to cheat to get out of there in desperation to better himself and get a better life for his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman Mao Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Biggest ass is English football. Hate the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueredsupporter Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Cracking player dreadful role model. after the swansea dive refs will have his number. somebody needs to take him to one side and give it to him straight that he can be so much more than he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Cowshed said: It only becomes a losing battle when a laissez faire attitude to cheating becomes universal. It has not in numerous countries. Till then Alli more than a decent player but a ****! . It's an interesting debate non the less...where does one draw the line at cheating or breaking the rules? Diving like Ali to try and gain advantage...and everyone is screaming Cheat and up in arms. Then look at the reaction fans gave to Flints handball...fans were up in arms that he reacted 'honestly'...if he had tried to cheat the ref from an obvious handball...would we be calling cheat so profusely? Calling for throw in's and corners and free kicks....blocking runs and pulling shirts at set pieces....where does one draw the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueredsupporter Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 It's an interesting debate non the less...where does one draw the line at cheating or breaking the rules? when Diving like Ali to try and CHEAT. no debate to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 13 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said: It's an interesting debate non the less...where does one draw the line at cheating or breaking the rules? when Diving like Ali to try and CHEAT. no debate to it. The debate, is whether diving to gain a penalty, is any more a form of cheating, than as an example, hiding an obvious handball and denying a penalty....what's the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granadared Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Deli Ali has the the same temperament shown by Beckham and Gascoigne at that age, wants to win everything, every ball. Dosnt mean he's not a great player, and will mature with age. I was at the Southampton game on Wednesday and honestly though that Danny Rose was the MOTM. Tireless running. always finding space, and some great passes. He has matured so much since the loan at City, much of the petulance has gone. Has grown into himself, as will Deli Ali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueredsupporter Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 The debate, is whether diving to gain a penalty, is any more a form of cheating, than as an example, hiding an obvious handball and denying a penalty....what's the difference? totally different. handballs are often panic or accidents. obvious handball is not always a freekick penalty or cheating and can be quite innocent. going on the pitch looking to dive and doing it regularly to gain a penalty is shitty cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Totally agree with the Gerrard comparisons. He's skilful, hard-working and very competitive. I said to a Spurs fan that they were getting a future England star but didnt expect him to make the Euros. Now he's first name on the Spurs and England team sheets for me. He should play no 10 for England in spite of Rooney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 12/28/2016 at 22:24, BA14 RED said: For me hugely overrated, doesnt show up in the big games. Only 20 however and a lot to learn. Yes you're right as last night showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 12/28/2016 at 18:22, BA14 RED said: All games against better sides but not huge games at the time. I'm talking about England at Euro's he was absolutely awful and goes missing when Spurs are up against it. I just hope he isnt another talent who will be over hyped so much to go to waste. Admittedly, he is potentially a world class player and I believe he could go onto bigger things than Harry Kane. Punditry literally at Jamie Redknapp levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider-manc Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 30/12/2016 at 18:59, spudski said: The debate, is whether diving to gain a penalty, is any more a form of cheating, than as an example, hiding an obvious handball and denying a penalty....what's the difference? Only just had a read through this thread... Interesting debate. I guess the main difference in the two you mention is that the diving player does it intentionally and gets an opposition player in trouble- Handball very often occurs by mistake, so the player is often covering for his own mistake. And imo thats the difference in most of them- A lot of ways are simply trying to regain possession (via throw in, corner etc) or cover for their own mistake, not getting other players in trouble. Whereas winning a freekick/penalty via simulation could lead to the other player getting in trouble either there and then or later in the game (chalking up the offences). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueredsupporter Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Watched part of the game last night and didn't see Alli cheat this week. will be better play if he keeps it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 20 minutes ago, cider-manc said: Only just had a read through this thread... Interesting debate. I guess the main difference in the two you mention is that the diving player does it intentionally and gets an opposition player in trouble- Handball very often occurs by mistake, so the player is often covering for his own mistake. And imo thats the difference in most of them- A lot of ways are simply trying to regain possession (via throw in, corner etc) or cover for their own mistake, not getting other players in trouble. Whereas winning a freekick/penalty via simulation could lead to the other player getting in trouble either there and then or later in the game (chalking up the offences). My issue is with the difference between a player "seeking to gain an advantage" which I think is the technical description of cheating, and someone trying to avoid injury when hurdling a rash challenge for example. There is also the problem of showing incidents which at normal speed are definitely fouls but in super slow mo look innocuous. Last night in the Tottenham game Danny Rose went down under what was basically a rugby style "tap tackle", which is designed to knock the runner of balance, in slow motion there didn't appear to be enough contact to cause him to fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Blimey , saw the thread title and thought Steve Lansdown was really going for it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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