Hearts and Minds

[RedRock]

Football is a simple game. 

A game played on grass not on flip charts or power point machines. We see fancy diagrams of visions, objectives and talk of deliverables and percentages but all we want is to put a ball in the opponents net and prevent it from going into ours. 

I thought the Club may have learnt a lesson from the SoD experience. We now, seemingly, have appointed Son of SoD. We have vision, objectives and various amounts of mumbo jombo coarsing through the Club's veins. 

The 'progress' I see is like that of the England team. A team shackled by so much coaching carp that any natural talent, any spontaneous or progressive action is suppressed by the negativity of need to retain possession and the backwards and sideways passing that implies. 

My fear is that the FA coaching manuals and modern way of thinking is so ingrained in Lee there is little chance of reversal. Why we needed to go for an 'old head' who would've taken the best of the new but applied commonsense approach to management. Ability to manage positive hearts and minds is far more important than employing complex tactics to stop the opposition playing. 

Worried.

 

 

[boss hogg]

6 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Football is a simple game. 

A game played on grass not on flip charts or power point machines. We see fancy diagrams of visions, objectives and talk of deliverables and percentages but all we want is to put a ball in the opponents net and prevent it from going into ours. 

I thought the Club may have learnt a lesson from the SoD experience. We now, seemingly, have appointed Son of SoD. We have vision, objectives and various amounts of mumbo jombo coarsing through the Club's veins. 

The 'progress' I see is like that of the England team. A team shackled by so much coaching carp that any natural talent, any spontaneous or progressive action is suppressed by the negativity of need to retain possession and the backwards and sideways passing that implies. 

My fear is that the FA coaching manuals and modern way of thinking is so ingrained in Lee there is little chance of reversal. Why we needed to go for an 'old head' who would've taken the best of the new but applied commonsense approach to management. Ability to manage positive hearts and minds is far more important than employing complex tactics to stop the opposition playing. 

Worried.

 

 

bang on the money, sums lj up, text book manager.

[View from the Dolman]

7 minutes ago, boss hogg said:

bang on the money, sums lj up, text book manager.

What's your better alternative? Mike Bassett and 4-4-*******-2?

[1960maaan]

One of the things I liked about him when he was appointed was his willingness to learn. He studied different tactics, styles etc in various countries. The problem is finding the plan that works. He's not a one trick pony like Cott's ended up, but at the moment it's almost like he's being too clever and over thinking things. It's time to make things simple, get back to winning ways and get the confidence back THEN you can try new things when players are happier and confidence is high.

[boss hogg]

3 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

What's your better alternative? Mike Bassett and 4-4-*******-2?

just wish our manager could have a clear game plan, play to our strengths trouble is he has no idea what our strengths are, id take mike bassett over lj , talks slightly less bull shit.

[Cowshed]

13 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Football is a simple game. 

A game played on grass not on flip charts or power point machines. We see fancy diagrams of visions, objectives and talk of deliverables and percentages but all we want is to put a ball in the opponents net and prevent it from going into ours. 

I thought the Club may have learnt a lesson from the SoD experience. We now, seemingly, have appointed Son of SoD. We have vision, objectives and various amounts of mumbo jombo coarsing through the Club's veins. 

The 'progress' I see is like that of the England team. A team shackled by so much coaching carp that any natural talent, any spontaneous or progressive action is suppressed by the negativity of need to retain possession and the backwards and sideways passing that implies. 

My fear is that the FA coaching manuals and modern way of thinking is so ingrained in Lee there is little chance of reversal. Why we needed to go for an 'old head' who would've taken the best of the new but applied commonsense approach to management. Ability to manage positive hearts and minds is far more important than employing complex tactics to stop the opposition playing. 

Worried.

 

 

Do you want to see Bristol City play like Dave Bassetts Wimbledon or John Becks Cambridge?

Both teams who aimed to put a ball in the opponents net and prevent it from going into ours. 

And both teams whose football, originated from flip charts and percentages.

[boss hogg]

4 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

One of the things I liked about him when he was appointed was his willingness to learn. He studied different tactics, styles etc in various countries. The problem is finding the plan that works. He's not a one trick pony like Cott's ended up, but at the moment it's almost like he's being too clever and over thinking things. It's time to make things simple, get back to winning ways and get the confidence back THEN you can try new things when players are happier and confidence is high.

i  agree with you just dont think he should be learning his trade with us.

[View from the Dolman]

Gary Rowett is the new fashionable manager of the day... he seems to talk the same game as LJ.

[RegC]

I'll never forgive Hearts for poaching Joe Jordan, Minds.

[boss hogg]

4 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Gary Rowett is the new fashionable manager of the day... he seems to talk the same game as LJ.

yeah but he can back it up, great job at burton , decent job at brum with no money.

[View from the Dolman]

6 minutes ago, boss hogg said:

yeah but he can back it up, great job at burton , decent job at brum with no money.

No money? How much did Che Adams cost them? 

[Monkeh]

4 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

No money? How much did Che Adams cost them? 

around 2 million,

As for Johnson, I'm fed up with excuses and bad luck, but I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram just yet, I wouldn't be disappointed if Rowett walked through the doors tomorrow,

All I can do is turn up and support the team 

[boss hogg]

6 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

No money? How much did Che Adams cost them? 

ive no idea but id bet it was not as much as engval and i expect we have spent twice as much as brum.

[wendyredredrobin]

Put the Powerpoint away and spend more time on physical fitness.  It takes time, but a 10℅ improvement in the playets finess woul do more good than all the charts and diagrams.

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Do you want to see Bristol City play like Dave Bassetts Wimbledon or John Becks Cambridge?

Both teams who aimed to put a ball in the opponents net and prevent it from going into ours. 

And both teams whose football, originated from flip charts and percentages.

Ah, but don't forget LJ also use a drone!

if we were like those 2 sides the drone would not be safe! 

[Red Rag]

First sentence says it all. Football is a simple game. Why do we over complicate it?  Back to basics is the only cure for our current hangover.  

[Trueredsupporter]

Don't think City played like that v Reading due to any coaching manual.

[The Journalist]

1 hour ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Put the Powerpoint away and spend more time on physical fitness.  It takes time, but a 10℅ improvement in the playets finess woul do more good than all the charts and diagrams.

This is really starting to grate on me now (admittedly that's probably my problem, not yours) - it's muppets on here who keep bringing the powerpoint up, not Lee Johnson.

As far as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, one bloody powerpoint presentation from a time before us gets leaked and everyone suddenly thinks he's using it for half-time team talks?

If you think he should "put the Powerpoint away" I think you should put the computer away.

[RedRock]

Folks. I'm not suggesting we go for a 'lump it' style, more we have a blend of old and new, maybe with greater emphasis on old. Give players responsibility, let them play more intuitively, not like robots with pre-installed programs. Think more about getting them to perform to their highest level, more than 'process' and worrying about the opposition. Think man management, less process. 

If the players need a 'default' set it to WIN, not POSSESSION.

Now I'm not experienced in football coaching, and was just OK at playing to an amateur level. Therefore, I can't talk from a position of high-level football experience. My profession though was the first to embrace process - visions, goals, objectives, policies, action and cyclical plan, monitor, manage. This was decades before the FA even knew what 'process' meant.

Over the years, colleagues and I watched my profession disappear more and more up its own arse. It became so reliant on 'evidence' and 'process' that delivery near seized up and 'process' became the end, rather than the means to the end. Eventually, there was virtually no end product and anything that was produced was so unintelligible, even QCs struggled to understand it. 

I see parallels with my profession and the FA and those managers that fully embrace the 'new way' of football thinking. 

 

[Star of a gunner]

2 hours ago, View from the Dolman said:

What's your better alternative? Mike Bassett and 4-4-*******-2?

he got us to the world cup semis with 442

[Cowshed]

 

6 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

Football is a simple game. 

A game played on grass not on flip charts or power point machines. We see fancy diagrams of visions, objectives and talk of deliverables and percentages but all we want is to put a ball in the opponents net and prevent it from going into ours. 

I thought the Club may have learnt a lesson from the SoD experience. We now, seemingly, have appointed Son of SoD. We have vision, objectives and various amounts of mumbo jombo coarsing through the Club's veins. 

The 'progress' I see is like that of the England team. A team shackled by so much coaching carp that any natural talent, any spontaneous or progressive action is suppressed by the negativity of need to retain possession and the backwards and sideways passing that implies. 

My fear is that the FA coaching manuals and modern way of thinking is so ingrained in Lee there is little chance of reversal. Why we needed to go for an 'old head' who would've taken the best of the new but applied commonsense approach to management. Ability to manage positive hearts and minds is far more important than employing complex tactics to stop the opposition playing. 

Worried.

 

 

Which sections of FA coaching manuals brings you to the above conclusion?

[RedRock]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

Which sections of FA coaching manuals brings you to the above conclusion?

The bits that SoD wrote and are religiously followed by the likes of Hodgson, Southgate and other disciples. 

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

The bits that SoD wrote and are religiously followed by the likes of Hodgson, Southgate and other disciples. 

Which sections?

What manuals?

What coaching qualifications encourage the stifling of creativity?

Sean O'Driscoll played the less than robotic Jay Emmanuelle Thomas such was his fear of spontaneity gained from these manuals..

 

 

[bs3]

6 hours ago, Monkeh said:

around 2 million,

As for Johnson, I'm fed up with excuses and bad luck, but I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram just yet, I wouldn't be disappointed if Rowett walked through the doors tomorrow,

All I can do is turn up and support the team 

Agree, talking to a City supporting mate tonight( all my mates are City fans) , didn't want LJ as manager but he is and at the moment he is not going anywhere for a long time , so all we can do is support the team on a Saturday and hope things take an upturn.

[RedRock]

Key Stage 3.

The 'War and Peace', edition. Part 3, sub section 2.2, paragraph 5. I've a copy signed by Hodgson - he wrote his name sideways somewhat oddly ;-)

OK ... so why are we seeing dire, depressing, dull crab football at a national team and now local level? If not coaching, have players suddenly decided to ignore coaches, who I assume read coaching manuals (otherwise why produce them),and produce their own style of play?

[Kid in the Riot]

4 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

Folks. I'm not suggesting we go for a 'lump it' style, more we have a blend of old and new, maybe with greater emphasis on old. Give players responsibility, let them play more intuitively, not like robots with pre-installed programs. Think more about getting them to perform to their highest level, more than 'process' and worrying about the opposition. Think man management, less process. 

If the players need a 'default' set it to WIN, not POSSESSION.

Now I'm not experienced in football coaching, and was just OK at playing to an amateur level. Therefore, I can't talk from a position of high-level football experience. My profession though was the first to embrace process - visions, goals, objectives, policies, action and cyclical plan, monitor, manage. This was decades before the FA even knew what 'process' meant.

Over the years, colleagues and I watched my profession disappear more and more up its own arse. It became so reliant on 'evidence' and 'process' that delivery near seized up and 'process' became the end, rather than the means to the end. Eventually, there was virtually no end product and anything that was produced was so unintelligible, even QCs struggled to understand it. 

I see parallels with my profession and the FA and those managers that fully embrace the 'new way' of football thinking. 

I may have missed this, but where is your evidence that LJ is not giving the players responsibility and treating them like robots?

I wouldn't give two shits what those barristers think by the way seeing as though the legal profession has long had its own language which is mostly unintelligible to us mere mortals. And deliberately so of course...

[Cowshed]

15 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Key Stage 3.

The 'War and Peace', edition. Part 3, sub section 2.2, paragraph 5. I've a copy signed by Hodgson - he wrote his name sideways somewhat oddly ;-)

OK ... so why are we seeing dire, depressing, dull crab football at a national team and now local level? If not coaching, have players suddenly decided to ignore coaches, who I assume read coaching manuals (otherwise why produce them),and produce their own style of play?

You could answer the earlier questions.

You know my opinion of England. The football has also been poor under Coaches who are foreign i.e. Cappello. 

FA coaching badges - EUFA license demonstrates competency. And once qualified the coach uses that competency to coach their style of play not the FA's.  

 

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Key Stage 3.

The 'War and Peace', edition. Part 3, sub section 2.2, paragraph 5. I've a copy signed by Hodgson - he wrote his name sideways somewhat oddly ;-)

OK ... so why are we seeing dire, depressing, dull crab football at a national team and now local level? If not coaching, have players suddenly decided to ignore coaches, who I assume read coaching manuals (otherwise why produce them),and produce their own style of play?

It's because all teams and Clubs have high levels of information these days. In every facet and aspect of the game. Players are also physically fitter. They are better organised and disciplined and make far less mistakes than in previous years.

When you get two teams against one another, doing the same things, it's hard to break things down. More often than not, games are won by mistakes rather than ingenuity.

Basically teams cancel one another out and it almost becomes like a game of chess.

If a team were to do what you are asking...they'd be played off the park.

Many fans who attend football these days are of the older generation and remember football through rose tinted glasses.

You've only got to look at YouTube footage of us playing 10-15 years ago, and it was a mile away from what football is nowadays.

It may have been more exciting to watch...but most sport was back 'in the day'...as Sport is exciting when mistakes are made and it isn't 'perfect'.

Tbh...I don't think 'modern' football is for most people these days. To enjoy it, you have to embrace it...and try to understand what's going on.

I listen to fans at the Gate screaming at the players, and getting upset and frustrated when we play it back and sideways...as they don't understand why we do it.

Yet when a player rush's into a pass, like Reid and Pack did recently, and the ball was intercepted and we lose possession and become under pressure, then those fans are straight on the players back and saying they are crap and moaning.

It really is a ridiculous situation...the players can't win sometimes.

We'd be better off sticking 11 dogs and a balloon on the pitch to watch...half the fans might be entertained then

[shelts]

7 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

Football is a simple game. 

A game played on grass not on flip charts or power point machines. We see fancy diagrams of visions, objectives and talk of deliverables and percentages but all we want is to put a ball in the opponents net and prevent it from going into ours. 

I thought the Club may have learnt a lesson from the SoD experience. We now, seemingly, have appointed Son of SoD. We have vision, objectives and various amounts of mumbo jombo coarsing through the Club's veins. 

The 'progress' I see is like that of the England team. A team shackled by so much coaching carp that any natural talent, any spontaneous or progressive action is suppressed by the negativity of need to retain possession and the backwards and sideways passing that implies. 

My fear is that the FA coaching manuals and modern way of thinking is so ingrained in Lee there is little chance of reversal. Why we needed to go for an 'old head' who would've taken the best of the new but applied commonsense approach to management. Ability to manage positive hearts and minds is far more important than employing complex tactics to stop the opposition playing. 

Worried.

 

 

I get what you are trying to say. Badges are essential. Blue Peter badges are cool 

[RedRock]

Fair do's. Actually, Key Stage 3 is about possession in the English Schools FA manual (I think). 

Taking your point - a good one - that England have been atrocious under foreign managers as well, we go back to the players. Players who've been coached under English coaches. Note the point that coaches can develop their own styles, once qualified, but maybe then the majority of coaches just have no confidence in breaking away from the FA approach. 

Got to say, hearing Chris Houghton saying something to the effect that there's no point in copying the Spanish possession game and that Brighton have developed their our own style, was music to my ears. 

Genuinely hoping that Lee can turn things around. As he said, he's not inexperienced and has been through a disasterous run previously, so should know 'the fix'. Needs to be applied pretty soon though!

Let's just hope we can all 'seeing light at the end of the tunnel' starting with Cardiff.