Where is the breaking point

[milo1111]

23 minutes ago, RichardEdd said:

I think if you already he should go before the last four games then there hasn't been enough to swing your opinion. But if you already had some belief in LJ then there are good signs. SW showed us not capitulating despite going behind twice and getting a draw with a team pushing for the playoffs. Rotherham saw a win albeit a not very pretty one and the first 60/70 mins against Derby were great. Obviously losing the lead was not good but it was still an away point against at the other end of the table. Today its seems like we were poor first half but actually pretty good second half had more possession and shots on goal and lost to a goal that should have been a foul and a huge deflection. 

I appreciate that if yo had already made up your mind (Which is fair enough given the run etc.) that your not going to see enough there to swing your opinion, but with the best will in the world after a run like the one we had been on we aren't suddenly going to start winning every game particularly against teams doing so much better than us. 

Here is how I look at it if we had sacked LJ after forest/Burnley and appointed whoever you think we could realistically get to replace him in would you look at the last 4 games differently? Would you be saying the replacement is just as bad a LJ? I don't think you would I think we'd be talking about good progress and positive signs of improvement.

I wanted LJ gone at xmas but this is a decent post. 

However, from my point of view i just feel LJ is doomed and he just isnt able to win football matches. I dont think he has the charisma or persona to lead a group of men and to motivate them to be at their best week after week. Its the most important trait for any manager and he aint got it.

[pillred]

42 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Up to him if he wants a half-empty stadium isn't it

half, a third if he's lucky!

[GoodridgeandGoater]

20 minutes ago, milo1111 said:

I wanted LJ gone at xmas but this is a decent post. 

However, from my point of view i just feel LJ is doomed and he just isnt able to win football matches. I dont think he has the charisma or persona to lead a group of men and to motivate them to be at their best week after week. Its the most important trait for any manager and he aint got it.

His face looks like the picture of your post 

[Mr Popodopolous]

A small part of me wondered in mid January whether to let Lee Johnson go after Rotherham win- or even better him to stand down voluntarily/mutual consent (with whatever financial settlement agreed with SL/the board).

Basically yes awful run, but then 4 points from Sheff Wed and Rotherham games- which indeed we got. Thank you and Goodbye, a respectable departure if you like and a small cushion between now and the end of the season.

That may have been ideal for all parties.

[MarkRed!]

Just back from Leeds. shambolic defending and once again the tinker man has fcked it up... Started with 4411... Tammy isolated and Tomlin dropping too deep. Gave the ball away at will. Taylor not fit then plays the majority of the game anyway....

Second half 352... slightly better but again our defending at times was poor...  Goldbourne playing centre back with Mags back in Bristol..

Sick of LJ's crap excuses and his analysis of the game and selections are just wrong... I cannot understand what the board see in him... really can't. I gave up a date tonight.....

[GoodridgeandGoater]

I have supported LJ on here before but it does seem like a tipping point. 

My sense is that LJ is a smart guy and does a good job of buying into club philosophy behind the scenes etc. There was a Barnsley fan on here recently talking about how he had probably done well to put some good foundations in place there. Also a good talker - as MA no doubt respects.

It just seems that for whatever reason he's past the point of being able to get the best out of this group of players. Don't know if that's charisma / managememt / general ineptitude. There's no doubt if SL didn't like him personally and / or wasn't friends with his dad he'd be gone after what happened since November. 

But for the club - draws that should be wins and losses that should have been draws = relegation. Twist or stick. I'd twist. 

[paulcityfan]

46 minutes ago, milo1111 said:

I wanted LJ gone at xmas but this is a decent post. 

However, from my point of view i just feel LJ is doomed and he just isnt able to win football matches. I dont think he has the charisma or persona to lead a group of men and to motivate them to be at their best week after week. Its the most important trait for any manager and he aint got it.

This

[Superjack]

22 minutes ago, MarkRed! said:

Just back from Leeds. shambolic defending and once again the tinker man has fcked it up... Started with 4411... Tammy isolated and Tomlin dropping too deep. Gave the ball away at will. Taylor not fit then plays the majority of the game anyway....

Second half 352... slightly better but again our defending at times was poor...  Goldbourne playing centre back with Mags back in Bristol..

Sick of LJ's crap excuses and his analysis of the game and selections are just wrong... I cannot understand what the board see in him... really can't. I gave up a date tonight.....

Ouch.

I didn't have a date tonight because I had to work.

But it sounds like I still had a better night than you.

[Dr Balls]

21 minutes ago, GoodridgeandGoater said:

I have supported LJ on here before but it does seem like a tipping point. 

My sense is that LJ is a smart guy and does a good job of buying into club philosophy behind the scenes etc. There was a Barnsley fan on here recently talking about how he had probably done well to put some good foundations in place there. Also a good talker - as MA no doubt respects.

It just seems that for whatever reason he's past the point of being able to get the best out of this group of players. Don't know if that's charisma / managememt / general ineptitude. There's no doubt if SL didn't like him personally and / or wasn't friends with his dad he'd be gone after what happened since November. 

But for the club - draws that should be wins and losses that should have been draws = relegation. Twist or stick. I'd twist. 

I have a horrible feeling that you are right about LJ. Talks the talk, toes the party line on making the club financially sustainable in the long-term but unfortunately in the here and now cannot produce a team capable of winning matches.  The long-term plan will fail for lack of foresight about getting the short to medium term plan right first. No point recruiting for the future if we are back in league 1 and most if not all the players want out and need selling again, especially if we have lessened their value in the process.

Our only 2 league victories since October and both have been pretty poor. We got a lucky penalty and an out-of-nothing wonder strike against Ipswich, while against Rotherham it was dire, and only improved slightly after the substitutions. And we can't defend to save ourselves...

LJ is still learning how to be a manager and it's at our club's expense. He is not experienced enough at this level and it's costing us dearly. If SL waits until we are relegated to get rid of him then you have to ask why bother, unless it's to finally appease the majority of fans. LJ will make an ideal League 1 manager. It's a level he knows and has had some minor success previously... Although obviously not promotion!

I still think we need a change of manager to save us this season. If SL sees it differently and we go down, he will get a lot of flak and rightly so. Plus the cachet of having both of the big BS clubs relegated in the same season. Tumbleweed blowing around AG next season if that's the case and it's looking quite a possibility. Plus rather than the Lansdown Stand,  the new development could more rightly be called Lansdown's Folly!

I take no joy in saying this but the reality of our situation is plain to see. We are now only 3 points above 23rd place and still our results are not picking up, while our form is at best inconsistent. Doesn't look great does it!

[Snufflelufagus]

I'm wondering if we do get relegated how long he will be given next season? I just can't see him being sacked, unfortunately.

[Major Isewater]

7 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Up to him if he wants a half-empty stadium isn't it

He'd probably see it as half full .

[cityloyal473]

We are so far beyond the breaking point it's comical.  It quite literally is a slow motion car crash.  Unfortunately, he's here until seasons end and will oversee our relegation IMHO.

[Jacki]

8 hours ago, Red Exile said:

The breaking point for all but the most optimistic was weeks ago...can't see anything changing now. Colours nailed to the mast by SL, I believe he's fully committed and that  if we go down we'll be going down with LJ at the helm.

Bizarre in my opinion but that's where we are...

God I hope not but I really do think you're right. 

[BCFC Rich]

Looking at the fixtures by the time we get to the Fulham game we will have two games in hand on Burton and Wigan. It'll be interesting to look at the league table then - best case we'll still 3 clear + have games in hand or worst case we'll be in the relegation zone. That could make that game a tipping point, but I personally would wait until after Burton. If we pick up 6 points in the next 4 games I'd say we've done okay, if we pick up more than six I think people would have to say we really are showing signs of turning things around. Less than 6 and I'd start to be concerned myself.

I think the thing is IMO if LJ goes we aren't going to get someone a million times better, we might get an end of season bounce but that would mean we start next season in a similar position to this one but with a new manager who wants his own players etc. If we can get the same bounce with LJ then we will have a settled squad with a whole preseason to gel properly and be in a better position next season. 

Also in giving LJ the chance to turn things around we aid any future managerial search because whoever we chose to recruit will know they'll get a fair chance to show what they can do and if we're competing with someone for a particular manager that could actually be what swings things in our favor. I think if we give it until Burton though it'll start to be clear that we won't need a new manager.

[City fan 1982]

Good luck with the marketing, trying to sell season tickets in league one , with a generous prize freeze no doubt ! 

[Redmycolour]

20 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

I personally cannot work out for the life of me why anyone would still be backing LJ.

I get people not being happy with the personal abuse but in terms of LJ the manager, please could anyone who still backs/believes in LJ let the rest of us know what we aren't seeing?!

I think the people who are backing LJ are from the blue few.I don't honestly think there city fans.

[Guest]

To all those who want him gone, please remember who chose him and will choose the next one SL hasn't really got a great management picking record; Yes he has put millions into his dream of some kind of Super Bristol Sporting Mecca but going by The Rugby boys  who could easily be followed by us his dream could soon be 2nd rate.

Anyway he is calling the shots and not much chance of him kicking his boy out anytime soon............but then again he has changed his mind in the past, this one will be a bitter pill to swallow though.

I think the players and manager need a reminder; this is our club could you please make sure you look the hell after it while you are passing through it, its not just a cash cow; WAKE THE HELL UP and do what you are paid to do.

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

18 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

I have a horrible feeling that you are right about LJ. Talks the talk, toes the party line on making the club financially sustainable in the long-term but unfortunately in the here and now cannot produce a team capable of winning matches.  The long-term plan will fail for lack of foresight about getting the short to medium term plan right first. No point recruiting for the future if we are back in league 1 and most if not all the players want out and need selling again, especially if we have lessened their value in the process.

Our only 2 league victories since October and both have been pretty poor. We got a lucky penalty and an out-of-nothing wonder strike against Ipswich, while against Rotherham it was dire, and only improved slightly after the substitutions. And we can't defend to save ourselves...

LJ is still learning how to be a manager and it's at our club's expense. He is not experienced enough at this level and it's costing us dearly. If SL waits until we are relegated to get rid of him then you have to ask why bother, unless it's to finally appease the majority of fans. LJ will make an ideal League 1 manager. It's a level he knows and has had some minor success previously... Although obviously not promotion!

I still think we need a change of manager to save us this season. If SL sees it differently and we go down, he will get a lot of flak and rightly so. Plus the cachet of having both of the big BS clubs relegated in the same season. Tumbleweed blowing around AG next season if that's the case and it's looking quite a possibility. Plus rather than the Lansdown Stand,  the new development could more rightly be called Lansdown's Folly!

I take no joy in saying this but the reality of our situation is plain to see. We are now only 3 points above 23rd place and still our results are not picking up, while our form is at best inconsistent. Doesn't look great does it!

If SL wanted a league 1 manager then he might as well have stuck with SC, personally apart from saving us from relegation, which was possibly due to the new manager/coach bounce, what difference has LJ been.

[Warwickshire Red]

10 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

To all those who want him gone, please remember who chose him and will choose the next one SL hasn't really got a great management picking record; Yes he has put millions into his dream of some kind of Super Bristol Sporting Mecca but going by The Rugby boys  who could easily be followed by us his dream could soon be 2nd rate.

Anyway he is calling the shots and not much chance of him kicking his boy out anytime soon............but then again he has changed his mind in the past, this one will be a bitter pill to swallow though.

I think the players and manager need a reminder; this is our club could you please make sure you look the hell after it while you are passing through it, its not just a cash cow; WAKE THE HELL UP and do what you are paid to do.

Didn't KD select SC for the job as he knew him (then presumably SL rubber stamped)? 

Agree though if SL chooses/appoints the next one, his track record is dire but surely he has no more "friends" he can appoint, has he? 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

20 hours ago, Engvall's Splinter said:

This is a great point. A change (I think) would bring many supporters closer together. Some sort of unification. 

Until he goes through an abysmal run...

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

18 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Until he goes through an abysmal run...

and so it goes.....

[Bobfish]

Well I know I have reached my breaking point. I have supported LJ for a while, to the extent that some on here have even accused me of being him, but after sitting on the fence for the last couple of months, I now think he has to go. At the start, I believed our failings were down to league one quality players, trying to fit Tomlin into a formation, poor fullbacks, but these issues are now somewhat reduced. True we still have some league one players, but the quality of the squad overall has increased. True we still have weaknesses at our full back positions, yet now they have some semblance of cover ahead of them. Our midfield has a good central pairing at last. What is left, therefore, is LJ’s decisions. His initial game plan is often spot on, Reading and Derby for example; yet his substitutions have been one of the most obvious issues for me. I appreciate his ability to be bold when we are behind, to throw all caution to the wind, but his inability to keep things the same, ie game management when we are ahead is telling. For example against Cardiff, when Warnock brought on two wingers to outnumber us out wide, LJ did not act. And against derby, I understand the value in Djuric being brought on to help hold up the ball, but this is an example of LJ’s substitutions: They are always to make a tactical change, never to keep the game as it is. For example, goldbourne was exhausted against derby, falling over at one point after a run upfield, and so was going to start making mistakes. O’dowda was brought on for Tammy, I think it was, but LJ could have taken goldbourne off, moved bryan to fullback, and had o’dowda sitting ahead to protect him. (Or better yet had magners on the bench). One of the reasons our players start to defend deeper and lose concentration must be that they are exhausted from all the pressing, pressing that has worked for us, like against reading for 70 odd mins. He could have brought on vyner for little and pack for brownhill, just for example, to provide fresh legs and minds to enable us to keep pressing effectively, higher up the pitch. What is annoying is that it can be seen that the opposition is actively targeting these tired players too.

And as someone else mentioned, where do players go for weeks? Reid for example, Patterson, Goldbourne earlier in the season, Magners, etc, favourites for several games then nothing. Are they off training a certain element of their game to then only be able to come back once this is addressed?

And the squad rotation, probably related to the above, why is Flint immune to this? Whenever I have had to listen to away games on the radio, I could have made a drinking game by downing two fingers everytime they say “and flint boots it upfield, but only to a white/blue/black etc shirt.” If he was captain then I would maybe understand, but this is beyond me, as whilst good at the basics, he has many areas that need addressing in his game. Which brings me to my next point, if LJ goes, he has to take pemberton and holden with him. Pemberton has been our defence coach for seasons, bloody seasons of terrible defending, whether SC or LJ. Joe Bryan, Little, Flint, Pack are prime example of players who have received years of defensive training from him yet lack basic defensive positioning, tracking runners, staying tight to their mark in the box etc. It is painful to watch, pure schoolboy stuff sometimes. The space our defenders allow players makes it look like we are trying to zonal mark and badly at that. It is no surprise crosses punish us constantly, just like in the Derby game.   

And the nail in the coffin for me, last night. We all wanted the same team that gave us the first 45 mins against Derby. Tomlin starts because Taylor has a hamstring problem. Ok, I think Djuric deserves the opportunity that Tomlin has already wasted, saying Djuric scored in our only recent win, and not a penalty, but sure. We now have wingers who can cross too for a 6ft 6 chap to head, but fine. If a change from the Derby game is enforced then we will have to live with it. Yet Taylor is on the bench. Ok, maybe the physio said he could play 40mins or something. Seems a waste of a bench spot for an injured player when goldbourne tires and we have magners eating cake, especially as matthews rather than vyner is on the bench, ie not a cb. Sure Jens can cover, but no doubt will be exhausted later himself. So Tammy gets injured in the first half then Taylor rather than Djuric comes on? If Taylor is fit to come on that early, he is fit enough to start. If we had no other strikers available, sure, but Djuric, you know the big guy who causes defenders problems, is there. If there was any worry about a hamstring problem, you would bring Djuric on before Taylor.

I had hoped the Derby game was the real turning point, yet now I realise the first half highlighted what I had hoped LJ would have turned us into, whilst the second half is the reality. If only he could have become our manager for the first time in, say, five years for example, when he was a bit wiser. For me, he has not learnt from his mistakes quick enough. I have reached my breaking point, which makes this a sad day.

[Nogbad the Bad]

23 minutes ago, Warwickshire Red said:

Didn't KD select SC for the job as he knew him (then presumably SL rubber stamped)? 

Agree though if SL chooses/appoints the next one, his track record is dire but surely he has no more "friends" he can appoint, has he? 

'Thank you for attending today's press conference here in the Lansdown Suite.

It gives me great pleasure to introduce the new manager for Bristol City's forthcoming League 1 campaign.

A huge friend of Jon's, um, I mean, um, um........ the club, the outstanding candidate, um, er, after Louis perhaps, but anyway....

WELCOME HOME...............COLE SKUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE!' 

[Wrongagain]

Is SL's reluctance to change more due to abject failure in the running of bristol sport?

Mainstays are rugby and soccer, both failing miserably at the moment and both needing a total rethink at the top - so the reluctance to change could be down to not wanting to admit to a double failure. BS is still a PLC what chance a floatation is planned? And if so what would the double failure mean in £'s inthe bank?

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 minutes ago, Bobfish said:

Well I know I have reached my breaking point. I have supported LJ for a while, to the extent that some on here have even accused me of being him, but after sitting on the fence for the last couple of months, I now think he has to go. At the start, I believed our failings were down to league one quality players, trying to fit Tomlin into a formation, poor fullbacks, but these issues are now somewhat reduced. True we still have some league one players, but the quality of the squad overall has increased. True we still have weaknesses at our full back positions, yet now they have some semblance of cover ahead of them. Our midfield has a good central pairing at last. What is left, therefore, is LJ’s decisions. His initial game plan is often spot on, Reading and Derby for example; yet his substitutions have been one of the most obvious issues for me. I appreciate his ability to be bold when we are behind, to throw all caution to the wind, but his inability to keep things the same, ie game management when we are ahead is telling. For example against Cardiff, when Warnock brought on two wingers to outnumber us out wide, LJ did not act. And against derby, I understand the value in Djuric being brought on to help hold up the ball, but this is an example of LJ’s substitutions: They are always to make a tactical change, never to keep the game as it is. For example, goldbourne was exhausted against derby, falling over at one point after a run upfield, and so was going to start making mistakes. O’dowda was brought on for Tammy, I think it was, but LJ could have taken goldbourne off, moved bryan to fullback, and had o’dowda sitting ahead to protect him. (Or better yet had magners on the bench). One of the reasons our players start to defend deeper and lose concentration must be that they are exhausted from all the pressing, pressing that has worked for us, like against reading for 70 odd mins. He could have brought on vyner for little and pack for brownhill, just for example, to provide fresh legs and minds to enable us to keep pressing effectively, higher up the pitch. What is annoying is that it can be seen that the opposition is actively targeting these tired players too.

 

 

And as someone else mentioned, where do players go for weeks? Reid for example, Patterson, Goldbourne earlier in the season, Magners, etc, favourites for several games then nothing. Are they off training a certain element of their game to then only be able to come back once this is addressed?

And the squad rotation, probably related to the above, why is Flint immune to this? Whenever I have had to listen to away games on the radio, I could have made a drinking game by downing two fingers everytime they say “and flint boots it upfield, but only to a white/blue/black etc shirt.” If he was captain then I would maybe understand, but this is beyond me, as whilst good at the basics, he has many areas that need addressing in his game. Which brings me to my next point, if LJ goes, he has to take pemberton and holden with him. Pemberton has been our defence coach for seasons, bloody seasons of terrible defending, whether SC or LJ. Joe Bryan, Little, Flint, Pack are prime example of players who have received years of defensive training from him yet lack basic defensive positioning, tracking runners, staying tight to their mark in the box etc. It is painful to watch, pure schoolboy stuff sometimes. The space our defenders allow players makes it look like we are trying to zonal mark and badly at that. It is no surprise crosses punish us constantly, just like in the Derby game.   

 

 

And the nail in the coffin for me, last night. We all wanted the same team that gave us the first 45 mins against Derby. Tomlin starts because Taylor has a hamstring problem. Ok, I think Djuric deserves the opportunity that Tomlin has already wasted, saying Djuric scored in our only recent win, and not a penalty, but sure. We now have wingers who can cross too for a 6ft 6 chap to head, but fine. If a change from the Derby game is enforced then we will have to live with it. Yet Taylor is on the bench. Ok, maybe the physio said he could play 40mins or something. Seems a waste of a bench spot for an injured player when goldbourne tires and we have magners eating cake, especially as matthews rather than vyner is on the bench, ie not a cb. Sure Jens can cover, but no doubt will be exhausted later himself. So Tammy gets injured in the first half then Taylor rather than Djuric comes on? If Taylor is fit to come on that early, he is fit enough to start. If we had no other strikers available, sure, but Djuric, you know the big guy who causes defenders problems, is there. If there was any worry about a hamstring problem, you would bring Djuric on before Taylor.

I had hoped the Derby game was the real turning point, yet now I realise the first half highlighted what I had hoped LJ would have turned us into, whilst the second half is the reality. If only he could have become our manager for the first time in, say, five years for example, when he was a bit wiser. For me, he has not learnt from his mistakes quick enough. I have reached my breaking point, which makes this a sad day.

 

 

[robin_unreliant]

For most of us we are well past breaking point. Presumably SL is made of stronger stuff than us.

I think what will decide our fate is the games against Burton, Wigan, Balckburn and qpr. Two of those are over Easter. I expect LJ to still be here then, regardless of results. So we have to hope that SL's stubornness pays off. I am not very confident it will but becoming resigned to the fact that Johnson isn't gonna be sacked. I, for one, won't be renewing my ST if he takes us down and is still manager for next season.

[Engvall's Splinter]

1 hour ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Until he goes through an abysmal run...

We do well to find another muppet who'd take us through similar again. 

Wouldnt surprise me though. 

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, glos old boy said:

To all those who want him gone, please remember who chose him and will choose the next one SL hasn't really got a great management picking record; Yes he has put millions into his dream of some kind of Super Bristol Sporting Mecca but going by The Rugby boys  who could easily be followed by us his dream could soon be 2nd rate.

Anyway he is calling the shots and not much chance of him kicking his boy out anytime soon............but then again he has changed his mind in the past, this one will be a bitter pill to swallow though.

I think the players and manager need a reminder; this is our club could you please make sure you look the hell after it while you are passing through it, its not just a cash cow; WAKE THE HELL UP and do what you are paid to do.

I would hope that Ashton has been beavering away behind the scènes to sound out possible replacements for LJ and that Lansdown lets him and Des Taylor the ' football ' men at the club choose the right one .

I hope that SL has learned from his mistakes .

[Jack Dawe]

SL's greaking point will not come until mid September, when, after a slow start back in L1, we are thumped 1:4 at home by Rovers in front of 14,000 at AG, a Rovers team costing one tenth to assemble of the City team LJ has put together. 

[Davefevs]

@Bobfish

your first paragraph sums up what I've been saying for weeks.  

The gameplan that he determines at the start of the game is thrown out, he over reacts with his changes.  The only game I've seen where the opposition manager reacted to us was Cardiff, where unbelievably LJ didn't react back 

Have we ever kept the same eleven all 90.  Other sides make time wasting subs only, they back their initial eleven.

Of course it is so easy for us keyboard warriors to make it all his fault and see all his failings, but I'll also give him credit where it's due too.