Tipps69 Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 On many occasions while this chase to get LJ out of his job has been going, I have given my reasons why I don't think he should be sacked. It's not so much of the fact that I'm a LJ supporter, more the fact that I don't want to see my club become one of those clubs that sack their manager / head coach every year when we inevitably hit a patch of bad form. How many times has a thread been started on here after another clubs manager has been relieved of his position & the response has been that it was to soon or the club is ran by an idiot for constantly changing the guy in charge of team affairs. LJ was given the job on the basis that it was a long term project & from the off he asked to be judged after 3 transfer windows, so a year & a half. Instead he has been given 2 windows & literally a year & we are now looking like one of those nut job clubs who get rid of head coach too soon (in my view). Those who say he's spent so much money, granted, for us it's a lot of money but in the grand scheme of things, against the rest of the clubs in this division, we have spent a fraction compared to them over the last 5 years & the majority of clubs have been in this division or The Premier League & have reaped the financial rewards. We have been here a year & a half & only this year have we benefited from the financial rewards because last season we were performing with the benefit of only half a stadium!! You also have to remember the size of the clubs reputation in the game, we don't have the added reputation of being in The Premier League or consistently being in The Championship, so we are still seen as a small-ish club in the grand scheme of things. We have no more right to win games than any other club in this division & to some extent we probably have even less right to win games. So, my question to all of you that want us to open the revolving door again & bring someone else in who is going to be odds-on to be out of a job in less than a year, why do you think we have a god given right to win football matches in a division we aren't exactly accustomed too? Try & convince me why I should back your petition & your wish for us to replace another manager / head coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Not one single person thinks we have a God given right to win games but many think one or two is not unreasonable . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Major Isewater said: Not one single person thinks we have a God given right to win games but many think one or two is not unreasonable . We've won one or two, we're not in a relegation spot & we're above former Premier League Champions, so how much moaning must they be doing right now? Below that massive Bristol City!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 This is a LJ thread, isn't it?? tfj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 I simply believe if you are crap at your job you improve or you are shown the exit. No need for sentimentality, just common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 it's been up for 12 minutes and the MODS ain't spotted it. tfj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Taxi for Johnson said: This is a LJ thread, isn't it?? tfj If you want but I'm not advocating getting rid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoons Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said: I simply believe if you are crap at your job you improve or you are shown the exit. No need for sentimentality, just common sense. Not where I work, the people who are crap at their jobs end up in management !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Do we have a god given right to not be in league two? Can we moan if we get there or do we have to wait till non league. I don't understand the argument. All I want is to win more than we lose and to play attractive football. That is literally it. Too much to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brizzlelou Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 18 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: We've won one or two, we're not in a relegation spot & we're above former Premier League Champions, so how much moaning must they be doing right now? Below that massive Bristol City!! I think he means one or two every now and then, not one or two all season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockneydave Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, Spoons said: Not where I work, the people who are crap at their jobs end up in management !! Bit like the house of commons and the house of lords then!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, RedDave said: Do we have a god given right to not be in league two? Can we moan if we get there or do we have to wait till non league. I don't understand the argument. All I want is to win more than we lose and to play attractive football. That is literally it. Too much to ask? And from recent reports we have been playing attractive football, one quote I remember from the Derby game was it was the best football we had played for 15 years!! Regardless of us conceding 3 goals, it was still the best we had played for years & others have praised the performance at Leeds as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unan Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Look at Preston, Barnsley etc when you try to use the 'relative money' excuse, we've spent a fortune and gone backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curr Avon Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 37 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: On many occasions while this chase to get LJ out of his job has been going, I have given my reasons why I don't think he should be sacked. It's not so much of the fact that I'm a LJ supporter, more the fact that I don't want to see my club become one of those clubs that sack their manager / head coach every year when we inevitably hit a patch of bad form. How many times has a thread been started on here after another clubs manager has been relieved of his position & the response has been that it was to soon or the club is ran by an idiot for constantly changing the guy in charge of team affairs. LJ was given the job on the basis that it was a long term project & from the off he asked to be judged after 3 transfer windows, so a year & a half. Instead he has been given 2 windows & literally a year & we are now looking like one of those nut job clubs who get rid of head coach too soon (in my view). Those who say he's spent so much money, granted, for us it's a lot of money but in the grand scheme of things, against the rest of the clubs in this division, we have spent a fraction compared to them over the last 5 years & the majority of clubs have been in this division or The Premier League & have reaped the financial rewards. We have been here a year & a half & only this year have we benefited from the financial rewards because last season we were performing with the benefit of only half a stadium!! You also have to remember the size of the clubs reputation in the game, we don't have the added reputation of being in The Premier League or consistently being in The Championship, so we are still seen as a small-ish club in the grand scheme of things. We have no more right to win games than any other club in this division & to some extent we probably have even less right to win games. So, my question to all of you that want us to open the revolving door again & bring someone else in who is going to be odds-on to be out of a job in less than a year, why do you think we have a god given right to win football matches in a division we aren't exactly accustomed too? Try & convince me why I should back your petition & your wish for us to replace another manager / head coach. What if I suggested that your views and those of other posters that want to keep LJ for some perceived greater good are part of an agenda to keep the club wallowing in mediocrity, constantly yo-yoing between League 1 and The Championship? Well I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beni71 Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 We are under performing based on the squad we have and ultimately it's LJs job to get the team to perform on the pitch. But...I'm of the view that the revolving managerial door doesn't guarantee a thing. Look at the mess Bristol Rovers got into - 8 managers in 4 years and look where that ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 34 minutes ago, Matty Taylor [BCFC] said: Look at Preston, Barnsley etc when you try to use the 'relative money' excuse, we've spent a fortune and gone backwards. And that is my point, we don't deserve to be higher than someone just because we've spent more!! We get more fans than Bournemouth, doesn't mean we deserve to be above them!! Look at Portsmouth, Blackpool, Bolton, Coventry, Charlton & Blackburn, all clubs that have been in The Premier League while we've hung around the lower reaches, do they deserve to be ahead of us because of where they've been? No!! Look at Villa!! Got a name in as manager, spent 4 times as much as us, 3 players at over £10m just about every other player cost more than what we paid for our record transfer!! Plus they've had The Premier League millions for years & have a much higher reputation in the game than us & have had 40,000 people coming through the gates for years but they aren't far away from us. We don't have a given right to any form of success, no one does but changing the man in charge of team affairs every year is only going to mean that we waste even more money on new players as the new man in charge wants his own players in & then we have to do it all again next year because the odds are against anyone gaining proper success here!! We are always going to go through times when the form isn't what we want it to be. A name in charge & spending ridiculous amounts of money don't guarantee anyone success!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 14 minutes ago, Curr Avon said: What if I suggested that your views and those of other posters that want to keep LJ for some perceived greater good are part of an agenda to keep the club wallowing in mediocrity, constantly yo-yoing between League 1 and The Championship? Well I'm not. "Well your not" what? Suggesting that my views & those others that want LJ to stay are part of an agenda? Or you don't want mediocrity, constantly yo-yoing between The Championship & League One? And what proof have you got that bringing in a "name" to take charge & spending many millions more will guarantee us that we won't have mediocrity & yo-yoing between The Championship & League One? Again, we have no god given right to not spend our time doing that!! I can guarantee you that Villa fans think they are too good to be slumming it down in The Championship, having signed 3 players for £10m or more & another 10-15 players for at least 3m each (our record transfer fee). But look at them flying high with all their Premier League money & millions made from having 40,000+ coming through the turnstiles!! And they have the same rights as us, as do Burton, Plymouth or Carlisle, no rights at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: And that is my point, we don't deserve to be higher than someone just because we've spent more!! We get more fans than Bournemouth, doesn't mean we deserve to be above them!! Look at Portsmouth, Blackpool, Bolton, Coventry, Charlton & Blackburn, all clubs that have been in The Premier League while we've hung around the lower reaches, do they deserve to be ahead of us because of where they've been? No!! Look at Villa!! Got a name in as manager, spent 4 times as much as us, 3 players at over £10m just about every other player cost more than what we paid for our record transfer!! Plus they've had The Premier League millions for years & have a much higher reputation in the game than us & have had 40,000 people coming through the gates for years but they aren't far away from us. We don't have a given right to any form of success, no one does but changing the man in charge of team affairs every year is only going to mean that we waste even more money on new players as the new man in charge wants his own players in & then we have to do it all again next year because the odds are against anyone gaining proper success here!! We are always going to through times when the form isn't what we want it to be. A name in charge & spending ridiculous amounts of money don't guarantee anyone success!! We are supposed to be in a position where we can change one coach for another without derailing the whole club ethos and system of playing. The coach works to improve and develop the players already at his disposal whilst liasing with the recruitment team to ensure an improvement to the squad . The problem as I see it is that we are not a basket case club . We have everything in place to succeed and yet we are three points above the relegation spot ,why ? Who takes responsibility for our underachievement ? which it surely is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeepUpLino Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 23 minutes ago, Beni71 said: We are under performing based on the squad we have and ultimately it's LJs job to get the team to perform on the pitch. But...I'm of the view that the revolving managerial door doesn't guarantee a thing. Look at the mess Bristol Rovers got into - 8 managers in 4 years and look where that ended. You know what really ***** me off is people on here saying it's not LJ fault it's the player's.. That would be a bit like me sending a load of labourers to do a skilled job they simply couldn't do and then the labourers getting the blame!! LJ signed the players To do a job, if they haven't got the right credentials to stand up and fight when the chips are down then it's obvious that he has failed.., take some ******* responsibility for god sake!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: "Well your not" what? Suggesting that my views & those others that want LJ to stay are part of an agenda? Or you don't want mediocrity, constantly yo-yoing between The Championship & League One? And what proof have you got that bringing in a "name" to take charge & spending many millions more will guarantee us that we won't have mediocrity & yo-yoing between The Championship & League One? Again, we have no god given right to not spend our time doing that!! I can guarantee you that Villa fans think they are too good to be slumming it down in The Championship, having signed 3 players for £10m or more & another 10-15 players for at least 3m each (our record transfer fee). But look at them flying high with all their Premier League money & millions made from having 40,000+ coming through the turnstiles!! And they have the same rights as us, as do Burton, Plymouth or Carlisle, no rights at all. I'm seriously not clear what your point is in any of your posts. We have manager who has delivered the poorest run in our history. Some feel that this is evidence that he is out of his depth. Personally I buy that. Others think he's got it in him to succeed. Fair enough, I can live with that if it turns out to be correct, but time is limited. That position disintegrates if we go down. But ultimately none of that is complicated...it's a difference of opinion. But to suggest that believing that LJ is out of his depth equates to wanting "guarantees" of success, or a sense that we "deserve" to be higher, or believe we have some "right", well that doesn't wash. I've not expected much in the past 40 years, but I do expect competence. And that has seemed lacking for much of this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacki Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 I don't think we have a divine right to win games. I understand that the Championship is a really tough league. I also don't advocate changing managers at the drop of a hat. But, in the last 15 league games, or third of an entire season, we have managed one win. One. That was against a dreadful Rotherham team who are miles adrift at the bottom, and was one of the poorest performances you could ever wish to see. I heard the AG crowd properly turn that day for the first time when LJ made the substitutions, but aside from that I'd say the atmosphere has generally been pretty supportive. LJ has had fortunes to spend. He's had the support of the owner. He's generally benefited from a very patient crowd. He has a decent squad at his disposal. And yet here we are in as bad a position as we were when he arrived, worse if you take recent form into account. I don't think people in favour of removing him are knee jerking or 'basket cases', I think the vast majority are reasonable people who can clearly see that LJ is out of his depth, which has become more and more apparent now for nigh on the last 4 months I admire the OP's sentiment, but in my view if we don't change manager there's a more than likely chance we'll go down. It's not as if this has been a recent downturn, it's been going on for months. Would you rather we hang on to LJ and risk that? Or bring in a proven championship manager who could very well get this decent squad of players climbing the table? For me it's ludicrous that nothing's been done, and that decision needs to be made now in the long term interests of the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Tipps69 said: & we're above former Premier League Champions, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beni71 Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, 'keepuplino' said: You know what really ***** me off is people on here saying it's not LJ fault it's the player's.. That would be a bit like me sending a load of labourers to do a skilled job they simply couldn't do and then the labourers getting the blame!! LJ signed the players To do a job, if they haven't got the right credentials to stand up and fight when the chips are down then it's obvious that he has failed.., take some ******* responsibility for god sake!!! Never said it wasn't LJ's fault, it's his responsibility to pick the team and get results. What I said is that I don't believe in the managerial merry go round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingswood red Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 48 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: And from recent reports we have been playing attractive football, one quote I remember from the Derby game was it was the best football we had played for 15 years!! Regardless of us conceding 3 goals, it was still the best we had played for years & others have praised the performance at Leeds as well. Can I assume your quoting of 'recent reports' means that you don't actually go to games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 10 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: We are supposed to be in a position where we can change one coach for another without derailing the whole club ethos and system of playing. The coach works to improve and develop the players already at his disposal whilst liasing with the recruitment team to ensure an improvement to the squad . The problem as I see it is that we are not a basket case club . We have everything in place to succeed and yet we are three points above the relegation spot ,why ? Who takes responsibility for our underachievement ? which it surely is . Your right & no one is denying the fact that we are under-achieving but I guess for the large part it boils down to luck, as it does throughout the world. If Ince hadn't dived & earned a penalty we might of beat Derby, if Wood hadn't of fouled Wright in the build up to Leeds first goal? If the ball had deflected off of Flint & gone wide instead of in for their 2nd? It's all small margins & down to a bit of luck one way or the other. We could of maybe had a bit more than we have had?? Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRaw Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: And that is my point, we don't deserve to be higher than someone just because we've spent more!! I'm sure SL has a slightly different opinion. I'm certain he hasn't sanctioned a record spend in transfers fees to be languishing around the relegation zone and I'm certain the "project" didn't include it either! Most fans don't expect to be higher than any particular team or think we deserve to be either. However, I'm certain most fans, SL and LJ himself were cautiously expecting as least to be a competitive, mid table team which would have been an improvement overall on the previous season.....even if we stave off relegation, this season will be seen as relative failure. No team has a devine right to be successful, that's down to the manager/coach and squad....and at present the table doesn't lie. As for not wanting people to see our club as a sacking club, personally, I don't care at the moment.....if it means moving on an inexperienced, tactically inept coach before he relegates us then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 56 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: And from recent reports we have been playing attractive football, one quote I remember from the Derby game was it was the best football we had played for 15 years!! Regardless of us conceding 3 goals, it was still the best we had played for years & others have praised the performance at Leeds as well. Don't think you read my whole post. Win more than we lose. Not win every 8 games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 15 minutes ago, Red Exile said: I'm seriously not clear what your point is in any of your posts. We have manager who has delivered the poorest run in our history. Some feel that this is evidence that he is out of his depth. Personally I buy that. Others think he's got it in him to succeed. Fair enough, I can live with that if it turns out to be correct, but time is limited. That position disintegrates if we go down. But ultimately none of that is complicated...it's a difference of opinion. But to suggest that believing that LJ is out of his depth equates to wanting "guarantees" of success, or a sense that we "deserve" to be higher, or believe we have some "right", well that doesn't wash. But that is exactly what some people are expecting. My argument is that getting rid of LJ guarantees nothing other than the fact that we will spend another relative fortune (as far as we're concerned) in buying even more players for the new man in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, kingswood red said: Can I assume your quoting of 'recent reports' means that you don't actually go to games? Why does this matter? If your point is to denigrate his arguments by his/her lack of match attendance, it's a good indicator that you can't counter his arguments. Can you counter his/her arguments or are your arguments so limited that you can't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: Your right & no one is denying the fact that we are under-achieving but I guess for the large part it boils down to luck, as it does throughout the world. If Ince hadn't dived & earned a penalty we might of beat Derby, if Wood hadn't of fouled Wright in the build up to Leeds first goal? If the ball had deflected off of Flint & gone wide instead of in for their 2nd? It's all small margins & down to a bit of luck one way or the other. We could of maybe had a bit more than we have had?? Who knows? Yeah we've been unlucky so much this season. Get real man. Losers blame luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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