Why? What gives us the right?

[BobBobSuperBob]

12 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Good luck with finding someone to do that then, there is a lot of trust in football & that is why a new manager will bring in his own players because of fears of where the old managers players loyalty lies & rather than run the risk of their loyalty being for the old boss, they bring in their own players.

Don't think we'd have too much of an issue there if SL finally sees the light

Current players loyalty to the departing manager

If you do , I  think you will find you are very misguided

I think you'd find a instant and positive reaction from the players

[Tipps69]

36 minutes ago, kingswood red said:

I am very sorry to hear of your health issues and I wish you a speedy recovery.

I am definately not a better supporter than you or any one else but, i ask you, how can you possibly make any real assesments of something you haven't seen. All your assessments are based on hearsay and you should make that plain when you reply to supporters who actually go and sit through games, home and away. They are far better qualified to comment on games and how the club 'works' at present. You remind me of a poster on here years  ago called Cheese, he knew everything about everything, he didn't attend games either. I wonder if that is how we assess our opponents, we don't watch them, we use social media and hearsay. I must say it seems like it. At the end of the day i'm sure we all want our club to flourish but, as is the way of the world , we all have views based on our experiences.

But I shouldn't have to tell anyone what I've been through, I hate the fact that what's happened to me has happened to me & subsequently I lost everything that meant something to me (relationship, family, job, mates, home and life as I know it including going to support the club I've followed all over the country for well over 30 years) & I now suffer massively with depression!! Maybe that's what really winds me up, people seemingly over react that we aren't doing as well as they expect , yet after all I've gone through & I'm going through, I can still see the positives in the club I chose to support. 

I don't want pity or people treating me differently because of what's happened to me & that tends to be the case once people know what's happened because people see it that I'm not qualified to have an opinion on things that have been a massive part of my life.

I never comment on matches because I'm not there but I'm entitled to have an opinion with regards to things that involve the club I love & my opinion is that I don't want to see my club become one of those that sack the man in charge of team affairs after a year because it tends to lead to a slippery slope of constant change & not normally for the best & with little proof of success.

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

One thread from 6 weeks ago. Well done. Not exactly the "endless" number Tipps is claiming.

Tipps did not use the word "deserve" once, he has used it countless times throughout this thread to put forward his argument that many of us think we have a divine right to be higher in the league. It's simply not the case. There is an important distinction to be made between what we deserve and what we expect, which Tipps continues to refuse to acknowledge.

It is not simply misuse of a word, it is critical to the argument.

Maybe no one has actually said DESERVE but having read the numerous threads & posts on LJ bashing, that is the general thing that comes across, people think we deserve / expect better & I'm not the only one who has said it.

I wanted to know why those people think we deserve / expect us to be doing better because in my view, this notion that we have spent so much money that we should be higher is make believe, our general outlay over the same period where other clubs have improved their squads year on year by spending more than us year on year so we are playing catchup with so many of the clubs we are competing against.

Just because I don't conform to the beliefs of some of you doesn't mean that I'm wrong or right, people can have different views & both be right or wrong, that doesn't make me a WUM or whatever else I've been labelled as.

Some have managed to give reasoned views, others have made themselves look like children because they've got upset with someone questioning their beliefs.

I guess in some people's eyes I should never comment on anything Bristol City as I'm not qualified, that's fine, I'll do as those people wish & not bother in trying to get a reasoned debate going again & I'll stay in the background out of the way.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

One thread from 6 weeks ago. Well done. Not exactly the "endless" number Tipps is claiming.

Tipps did not use the word "deserve" once, he has used it countless times throughout this thread to put forward his argument that many of us think we have a divine right to be higher in the league. It's simply not the case. There is an important distinction to be made between what we deserve and what we expect, which Tipps continues to refuse to acknowledge.

It is not simply misuse of a word, it is critical to the argument.

I'm afraid the 'prove it card' was played and it was called. That you don't like it, I can't help.

Misuse and wrong use of words? Done all the time on OTIB and depending on what side you are on any argument, the response is either: 'Yeah but, no but' (see your comment above) or 'I'll flog this to death (because it blunts a persons argument)'.

Finally, there is the use of implicit and explicit language. There are people who don't use the 'deserve' word explicitly but read the language they've used, it implies 'deserve'. I try to avoid situations like this but sometimes, in the heat of emotion/of the moment, shit happens - that someone would try to crucify me for it tends to indicate the person doing the crucifying has a rather weak argument themselves.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

All fair enough and your view.  Not a cretin, just someone with a different view.

I agree it's not all LJ's fault, but this is a profession where the buck stops with the manager...and it's a results business.  As big a Cotts fan as I was, he'd pettily backed himself into a corner and had to go.  You can be balanced and think someone isn't right for the job, that's my stance.  Change isn't always the wrong thing, just as keeping LJ doesn't ensure stability, it can allow stagnation, regression.  

The Short-termism hasn't worked, but is that because we picked the wrong head-coach?  Would keeping SOD have worked?

The strategy is absolutely fine, apart from one thing, it assumes that if you follow the strategy that it correlates to improving on the pitch (results, positions).  This is the biggest risk to the strategy, and the last two managers who've adhered to the strategy (SOD & LJ) have been found wanting in the results part.  I won't dismiss that LJ did well when he came in initially, and that has bought him some time.  I was impressed.  But I'm also allowed to reflect and start to re-evaluate and see him differently.

Who knows, Fulham on Wednesday might be the turning point.  Perhaps as Tipps suggests all that unseen work between match days clicks and we see the identity of an LJ team that starts to get results and performances with it.  No-one will be more happy to see that.  I will congratulate him on working it through.  I've never slagged him off, I don't think I've ever said "he hadn't got a clue", I just think he is underperforming for the expectations HE set, it is not divine right, it is what he and SL told us our trajectory was aiming for.

This season for me was about further stability, position wise, building the foundations of a squad.  But as @Redandy says above, he's extolled the virtues of players and then tossed them aside.  We are in a relegation battle.  I think we've got enough to stay up, I hope.  

Finally, 1) what if he does take us down? And 2) what if we stay up but he gets off to a shocker next season?

1. My view: Two things a) There is a scale of what really affects me personally and City going down will piss me off but it won't be life affecting. b) I'm too long in the tooth to realise that I've worried about things in the past that never came to pass. On current evidence, I don't think we'll go down. However, to answer you question: been there, got the t shirt and we pick our selves up (I would hope that we'd learn from it).

2. Answered this in another post, but to summarise. He's nailed his colours to the mast (his 3 'transfer windows' statement). He has to deliver on that. The question really should be, "How long is his grace period?" Christmas? We probably can't answer that till we see how he comes out of the traps.

[Major Isewater]

54 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Lots of people were saying how great it was at Derby, and it was exceptional for any away team to score 3 times at Pride park.

Three days later Cardiff score 4 and win on the same ground!!

 

Only after we ruffled their feathers . 

[phantom]

14 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

We've won one or two, we're not in a relegation spot & we're above former Premier League Champions, so how much moaning must they be doing right now? Below that massive Bristol City!!

ans the sun is shining this morning - every is going to be alright!

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

1. My view: Two things a) There is a scale of what really affects me personally and City going down will piss me off but it won't be life affecting. b) I'm too long in the tooth to realise that I've worried about things in the past that never came to pass. On current evidence, I don't think we'll go down. However, to answer you question: been there, got the t shirt and we pick our selves up (I would hope that we'd learn from it).

2. Answered this in another post, but to summarise. He's nailed his colours to the mast (his 3 'transfer windows' statement). He has to deliver on that. The question really should be, "How long is his grace period?" Christmas? We probably can't answer that till we see how he comes out of the traps.

1. Yep, I started watching in 79, So been plenty of ups and downs! You just get on with it.

2. Maybe that's it, SL has vowed to give him his three windows.

Whilst he is in charge, I hope he turns it around...that is what is best for the club, the players and LJ himself, not forgetting the vast majority of fans.  It really is a minority who want him to fail.

[Nogbad the Bad]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

1. Yep, I started watching in 79, So been plenty of ups and downs! You just get on with it.

2. Maybe that's it, SL has vowed to give him his three windows.

Whilst he is in charge, I hope he turns it around...that is what is best for the club, the players and LJ himself, not forgetting the vast majority of fans.  It really is a minority who want him to fail.

I'm pretty sure it was made clear this 3 windows business was brought forward in January to make most of the necessary 'improvements' in 2, with extra players being signed then due to our league position.

So in reality he's just about had the 3 windows he insisted were so crucial - a statement he made both here and at Barnsley btw.

More likely the next '3rd' window will be used to prune our now unwieldy squad, while hopefully bringing in 2-3 players targeted to fill positions still weak despite all the signings.

I should hope so anyway, an average of 10+ new players every 6 months can't be sustained, and I think he's now had the equivalent of his 3 windows to make major changes in the minds of most.

 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

10 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

What about them? Are Forest any good these days? Ipswich? QPR?? Really? QPR - they've just signed Luke "Fluff" Freeman, our Championship dud. Birmingham? Do you follow the behind-the-scenes circus at that club? What are these four "accustomed" to? Are Reading any great shakes? They were sh1te last season. Brentford. Cardiff (what have they got over us, other than a very experienced and successful coach at this level?) Are this lot so far beyond the standards we can ever hope to achieve? I don't think so. Preston - how can we possibly live with Preston? Barnsley, the club that finished 6th in L1 last year. Do we need to cower in a corner faced with this lot? 

And Huddersfield - who we did the double over last season, and finished above. How can we ever hope to compete with a club like that? A club that can only match our support by selling £179 season tickets.

What about them?

 

 

 

 

 

You tell me what we've done to think we are on a par with the clubs you've mentioned barring Preston & Huddersfield. Slumming around L1 mainly with the occasional good season but that's a rarity in itself... 

 

[KeepUpLino]

18 hours ago, pillred said:

well said I sometimes think if LJ lost a 100 games in a row there would still be posters, who shall remain nameless on here, saying its no good changing the manager and we have no god given right to win games

What the few who say more people want Johnson to stay than leave?? 

******* brain dead idiots!!

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I'm pretty sure it was made clear this 3 windows business was brought forward in January to make most of the necessary 'improvements' in 2, with extra players being signed then due to our league position.

So in reality he's just about had the 3 windows he insisted were so crucial - a statement he made both here and at Barnsley btw.

More likely the next '3rd' window will be used to prune our now unwieldy squad, while hopefully bringing in 2-3 players targeted to fill positions still weak despite all the signings.

I should hope so anyway, an average of 10+ new players every 6 months can't be sustained, and I think he's now had the equivalent of his 3 windows to make major changes in the minds of most.

 

Correct - Said so himself

[exAtyeoMax]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

1. Yep, I started watching in 79, So been plenty of ups and downs! You just get on with it.

2. Maybe that's it, SL has vowed to give him his three windows.

Whilst he is in charge, I hope he turns it around...that is what is best for the club, the players and LJ himself, not forgetting the vast majority of fans.  It really is a minority who want him to fail.

An arched window, a square window and a round window … 

[Superjack]

22 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Your right & no one is denying the fact that we are under-achieving but I guess for the large part it boils down to luck, as it does throughout the world.

If Ince hadn't dived & earned a penalty we might of beat Derby, if Wood hadn't of fouled Wright in the build up to Leeds first goal? If the ball had deflected off of Flint & gone wide instead of in for their 2nd?

It's all small margins & down to a bit of luck one way or the other. We could of maybe had a bit more than we have had?? Who knows?

This really boils my piss.

Any team that ever loses a game by the odd goal can cite 'bad luck'.

Genuinely unlucky teams don't lose pretty much all of them.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I'd say Tipps that collectively we're a pretty demanding/expectant fan base of a club in a catchment area that has pitifully under-achieved throughout the course of its entire history.

Fans of most clubs these days seem discontent with their lot but we are based in one of the country's major cities and our footballing pedigree is woeful.

We are in the top ten for population catchment areas and yet we historically average somewhere like 45th in the league pyramid?  My user name was largely inspired by this 12 years ago.  It is not acceptable.

 

[Jack Dawe]

On 17/02/2017 at 11:24, Emperor Palpatine said:

You tell me what we've done to think we are on a par with the clubs you've mentioned barring Preston & Huddersfield. Slumming around L1 mainly with the occasional good season but that's a rarity in itself... 

 

What we have done is create ownership stability, number one. So that's a big advantage over Cardiff, Forest and Brum.

And we have no issue with crippling debt, we are not funder pressure to reduce our wage bill, number two. Big advantage over Cardiff, and QPR, for ex (who are reduced to buying our duds, like Freeman and JET now). And probably Forest and Brum.

Need any more?

We have created a pathway, a club "philosophy," if you like, the 5 pillars, based on previous unhappy experience in the Championship, to be successful in this league, not to have more of the same at this level,  number three.

We have brought our ground up to scratch, so that we are no longer disadvantaged by an antiquated ground, and have a greatly increased turnover, number four.

We have our best season ticket sales, possibly record season ticket sales, and best attendances for 37 years, thanks to much of the above, and are the 10th best supported out of 24 in this league, number five.

We have a much improved scouting set up with inroads into overseas, number six.

We have invested in our playing squad, spending more than we have ever done. Our budget is "competitive."We are not lacking in this department, number seven.

There's a few things we have done.

 

I could go on, and further highlight how SL has transformed the make-up of this club, the what "we have done to be on a par" with enough clubs to be comfortable, so that it is almost unrecognisable - even from what it was the last time we were at this level - and is now in the rudest health it has ever been, and in the best place to be competitive, yet still we find ourselves struggling like nothing has really changed, I could go on, but

....you would not be able to see it, such is the way the mind works. Such is the ingrained mindset of the long-standing Bristol City fan: "how can we ever expect to match yer Nottm Forests, yer QPRs, yer Birmingham Cjtys" we'll just accept our place in the grand scheme of things.

 

What Forest did in 1979 and 1980 means very, very little now. Hence why they look up at Swansea, Hull, Bournemouth, Watford, Burnley, Boro, Stoke and more and think, "what have they done that we are no longer on a oar with them?" 

What "thinking" did those clubs do to, not be on a "par" with Nottm Forest, and Cardiff, and QPR, but to leave them way behind and climb above them? Answer me that, Mr Emperor.....

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

What we have done is create ownership stability, number one. So that's a big advantage over Cardiff, Forest and Brum.

And we have no issue with crippling debt, we are not funder pressure to reduce our wage bill, number two. Big advantage over Cardiff, and QPR, for ex (who are reduced to buying our duds, like Freeman and JET now). And probably Forest and Brum.

Need any more?

We have created a pathway, a club "philosophy," if you like, the 5 pillars, based on previous unhappy experience in the Championship, to be successful in this league, not to have more of the same at this level,  number three.

We have brought our ground up to scratch, so that we are no longer disadvantaged by an antiquated ground, and have a greatly increased turnover, number four.

We have our best season ticket sales, possibly record season ticket sales, and best attendances for 37 years, thanks to much of the above, and are the 10th best supported out of 24 in this league, number five.

We have a much improved scouting set up with inroads into overseas, number six.

We have invested in our playing squad, spending more than we have ever done. Our budget is "competitive."We are not lacking in this department, number seven.

There's a few things we have done.

 

I could go on, and further highlight how SL has transformed the make-up of this club, the what "we have done to be on a par" with enough clubs to be comfortable, so that it is almost unrecognisable - even from what it was the last time we were at this level - and is now in the rudest health it has ever been, and in the best place to be competitive, yet still we find ourselves struggling like nothing has really changed, I could go on, but

....you would not be able to see it, such is the way the mind works. Such is the ingrained mindset of the long-standing Bristol City fan: "how can we ever expect to match yer Nottm Forests, yer QPRs, yer Birmingham Cjtys" we'll just accept our place in the grand scheme of things.

 

What Forest did in 1979 and 1980 means very, very little now. Hence why they look up at Swansea, Hull, Bournemouth, Watford, Burnley, Boro, Stoke and more and think, "what have they done that we are no longer on a oar with them?" 

What "thinking" did those clubs do to, not be on a "par" with Nottm Forest, and Cardiff, and QPR, but to leave them way behind and climb above them? Answer me that, Mr Emperor.....

Excellent , really well written post JD

[Jack Dawe]

14 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Excellent , really well written post JD

It's a waste of time, though BobBob. The Emperor has his view, and he will now find the "facts" that support his view, like everyone does on either side of the argument. If the Emp cannot already see why we should be on a par with Cardiff, Forest and the like, then he just aint going to see it. He will continue to "see" what he chooses to. Nothing I put there he hasn't already seen/read/been aware of. 

When these folk see SL do all the above, and trumpet "makingbristolproud," what do they think will make SL "proud"? Carrying on in this league like before? Do they think he is shrugging his shoulders, and thinking, "well, we're only little Bristol City. What can we expect?"

[BobBobSuperBob]

14 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

It's a waste of time, though BobBob. The Emperor has his view, and he will now find the "facts" that support his view, like everyone does on either side of the argument. If the Emp cannot already see why we should be on a par with Cardiff, Forest and the like, then he just aint going to see it. He will continue to "see" what he chooses to. Nothing I put there he hasn't already seen/read/been aware of. 

When these folk see SL do all the above, and trumpet "makingbristolproud," what do they think will make SL "proud"? Carrying on in this league like before? Do they think he is shrugging his shoulders, and thinking, "well, we're only little Bristol City. What can we expect?"

Not a waste of time JD

Your post is very eloquent and makes / explains some very valid points

Anyone but the blind can at least read such posts and consider your points , which the most sensible ones will , and you will always make one or two to consider their own views off such a post

I have had significant and increasing concerns and doubts about LJ , and wanted him gone , for months and months , but if somebody compiled a post such as yours , explaining why he's the right man to take us forward , I'd gladly read it and digest , and revisit my own views and consider at least.

 

Edit

Also, of course , supporters who already are thinking your way , like myself , will also,read your post and think 'Yep , good point , I agree and I'm more confident in my beliefs and views'

So again - not a waste of time fella  

I admire your patience as I've given up debating with a handful , and can't be bothered to answer some questions , they keep banding about , in the eloquent & clear way you have done  

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

44 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

It's a waste of time, though BobBob. The Emperor has his view, and he will now find the "facts" that support his view, like everyone does on either side of the argument. If the Emp cannot already see why we should be on a par with Cardiff, Forest and the like, then he just aint going to see it. He will continue to "see" what he chooses to. Nothing I put there he hasn't already seen/read/been aware of. 

When these folk see SL do all the above, and trumpet "makingbristolproud," what do they think will make SL "proud"? Carrying on in this league like before? Do they think he is shrugging his shoulders, and thinking, "well, we're only little Bristol City. What can we expect?"

You're right I do have facts which I can back up but like you said it's a waste of time due to a difference of opinion and I just can't be ****** to be debate on this forum anymore.. but I was referring to stature hence why I said we are a bottom 6 club in this league until we can stabilise a position in this division and move forward.

P.S. I think the handbags are and have been tacky... neither club has done the city proud in football terms maybe with the odd exception of City gracing the top flight for a couple of seasons. If you think I'm happy or blind regarding being a yoyo L1 club and so on, you are mistaken my friend

[Ivorguy]

So round and round the arguments swirl.

 

[Jack Dawe]

35 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

You're right I do have facts which I can back up but like you said it's a waste of time due to a difference of opinion and I just can't be ****** to be debate on this forum anymore.. but I was referring to stature hence why I said we are a bottom 6 club in this league until we can stabilise a position in this division and move forward.

P.S. I think the handbags are and have been tacky... neither club has done the city proud in football terms maybe with the odd exception of City gracing the top flight for a couple of seasons. If you think I'm happy or blind regarding being a yoyo L1 club and so on, you are mistaken my friend

Ok, so it is "stature" that we are lacking. Lack of "stature" that means we cannot expect very much more than what we saw last season, or this. But Forest's "stature" is old hat now. Very old hat. It means next to nothing. They have a clown in charge, have suffered a transfer embargo and watched their best players disappear with no commensurate re-investment in the playing squad. How does "stature" compensate for that?

All things being equal - local/stable owner, abscence of debt, wages on offer, budget to spend - Forest's "stature" would see Gary Rowett, for example, choose Forest over us, I don't doubt. And many, probably most players, too. Forest's stature would count for something. But Gary Rowett declined the chance to go to Forest. Forest's "stature" is not enough. And Tomlin came here when he had the option to go on loan at Forest or Leeds, a year ago. Stature is not a 100% guarantee. Stature=history, but today and the here and now count too, as Swansea, Bournemouth, Hull, Burnley, Watford etc will remind Forest only too painfully.

The same goes for many of the clubs in this league, the clubs you identify as having "stature" where we do not. 

A lot of these clubs you see as having "stature" also have very great problems behind the scenes that make life on the pitch very difficult. And while we do not have the "stature" of Forest, or QPR or others in this league, neither do we have the very great debilitating problems that most of these clubs have.

Problems like:

Ownership. Dodgy owners. Boardroom instability.Think of the Venkys at Blackburn. Birmingham (where to begin, with the problems facing Birmingham?). Cardiff. The bloke at Forest. Even Wolves.

Debt and/or a rapidly reducing income. Think Cardiff and QPR, with plummeting attendances and parachute payments about to end. Reading too, possibly.

A lack of investment. Think Ipswich.

Falling attendances. Think Ipswich, Cardiff, QPR, Birmingham, Fulham, Reading, Blackburn.

An ageing and/ or overpaid squad in desperate need of pruning. Think Fulham, QPR, Fulham, Cardiff (any club that came down from the Prem and did not go back up). We sorted this problem by 2015.

A toxic and destabilising lack of team spirit. I think we now know why Fulham struggled last year, having seen the antics of Ross McCormack this season. We had a great team ethic, what happened to that?

A crap limiting ground, not fit for purpose. Think QPR, Brentford.

 

Stature is no panacea. It will not overcome the problems I have listed above. It might see you featured more often and more favourably on Football Focus or in broadsheet newspapers but on a Saturday it will not keep you a clean sheet, nick you a win, bag you three points. It won't even sign you a sought after player, not if someone else will pay more.

I don't believe our lack of the "stature" you identify is as problematic as you make it out to be. If it were, how would any club lacking this - Swansea, Hull, Cardiff, Bournemouth - ever achieve great things?

And I don't believe Barnsley and Brentford have "stature" compared to us. Do they?

 

I don't think your "stature" point stacks up, not when it is encumbered by one or more of the problems listed above. Newcastle, Villa, Derby - yes, ok. Their "stature" gives them an advantage over us, as does their spending power. So why isn't our "stature" doing the same for us over Burton Albion, in their first season of Championship football and only in their seventh season as a Football League club?

 

 

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

So round and round the arguments swirl.

 

We're onto "stature" now.

We've done the "we're only losing by one goal," the Head Coach and his experience or lack of, the tactics, the losing of the dressing room, our terrible fullbacks, the owner, the recruitment, luck, the negativity of our support, the "individual errors," the loss of form of key players and the drinking of fizzy pop of our his-head's-not-right sicknote wasteofspace Welsh windback, the "we just need one win," the appointment of a second assistant coach coinciding with the worst run of consecutive league defeats in our history, the BristolSport forcing rugby tat on us and spoiling the ground, the "we're only in our second year" and "we are not accustomed" to this league, Flinty: hero or donkey?,and whether Luke Freeman can hit a barn door or not (he can. As soon as he left us).

[Curr Avon]

15 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

We're onto "stature" now.

We've done the "we're only losing by one goal," the Head Coach and his experience or lack of, the tactics, the losing of the dressing room, our terrible fullbacks, the owner, the recruitment, luck, the negativity of our support, the "individual errors," the loss of form of key players and the drinking of fizzy pop of our his-head's-not-right sicknote wasteofspace Welsh windback, the "we just need one win," the appointment of a second assistant coach coinciding with the worst run of consecutive league defeats in our history, the BristolSport forcing rugby tat on us and spoiling the ground, the "we're only in our second year" and "we are not accustomed" to this league, Flinty: hero or donkey?,and whether Luke Freeman can hit a barn door or not (he can. As soon as he left us).

Of course we have stature!

Haven't you seen that bloody big monument of John Atyeo?

[Jack Dawe]

On 16/02/2017 at 20:02, Tipps69 said:

On many occasions while this chase to get LJ out of his job has been going, I have given my reasons why I don't think he should be sacked.

It's not so much of the fact that I'm a LJ supporter, more the fact that I don't want to see my club become one of those clubs that sack their manager / head coach every year when we inevitably hit a patch of bad form.

How many times has a thread been started on here after another clubs manager has been relieved of his position & the response has been that it was to soon or the club is ran by an idiot for constantly changing the guy in charge of team affairs.

LJ was given the job on the basis that it was a long term project & from the off he asked to be judged after 3 transfer windows, so a year & a half. Instead he has been given 2 windows & literally a year & we are now looking like one of those nut job clubs who get rid of head coach too soon (in my view).

Those who say he's spent so much money, granted, for us it's a lot of money but in the grand scheme of things, against the rest of the clubs in this division, we have spent a fraction compared to them over the last 5 years & the majority of clubs have been in this division or The Premier League & have reaped the financial rewards. We have been here a year & a half & only this year have we benefited from the financial rewards because last season we were performing with the benefit of only half a stadium!!

You also have to remember the size of the clubs reputation in the game, we don't have the added reputation of being in The Premier League or consistently being in The Championship, so we are still seen as a small-ish club in the grand scheme of things.

We have no more right to win games than any other club in this division & to some extent we probably have even less right to win games.

So, my question to all of you that want us to open the revolving door again & bring someone else in who is going to be odds-on to be out of a job in less than a year, why do you think we have a god given right to win football matches in a division we aren't exactly accustomed too? Try & convince me why I should back your petition & your wish for us to replace another manager / head coach.

To go back to your original question and post:

What gives us the right? Nothing. Not even a club's "stature" gives a club the "right" to win matches. Winning football matches has to be earned, and the shortest route to this is having better players than your opponents (which, while offering no guarantees, certainly not over 90 mins, history shows us more often than not gives you an advantage over 46 games). Which is why 95% of clubs spend every pound they can on wages and transfer fees because analysis demonstrates that overall, wages spent equals league position (and so, winning football matches). It is not rocket science.

So, an interesting comparison to make would be how much clubs spend (ie are we the 14th highest spenders, the 17th, or the 21st) and where they are in the table that counts, come the end of the season (are we 14th, 17th or 21st?)

If we are the 21st out of 24 for wages, then being 21st in the table can be expected - no surprise there. But if we are 16th highest spenders, with the talent that should get you, and we finish 21st, or 22nd say, then questions must be asked. Are we getting value for money spent? What target was set? Who is responsible for overseeing this? Was he given the tools, or sufficient, to meet the targets set?

Isn't this what every business up and down the country is doing?

Why do you think we have a god-given right to win football matches in a division we aren't exactly accustomed to? I don't think this, see answer above. No City fan I know thinks this. Where do you get this idea that "we" think this? 

No one has a "god-given" right. Which is why SL has spent £45m on revamping the ground and worked his nuts off trying to modernise this club and put us on a more equal footing with our competitors.

But what I and many others do "expect" is that SL's experience in this league - six seasons from 2007 to 2013 let us not forget; and last season - will make us more "accustomed" to this division than say, Burton Albion, a Football League club for seven seasons. And with a bit of luck, at least as "accustomed" as Brentford (owner had no previous experience of this division), Reading (owners and coach zero experience of this division), Huddersfield (coach, zero experience), Barnsley (owner, similar experience; coach, zero experience), Forest (owner, zero experience), Preston (owner, similar experience; coach, actually, you might be on to something here), Cardiff (owner, similar number of years experience; coach, hmmmmm. You could be right), Ipswich (much more accustomed, and a very accustomed coach. Funny how they have pulled clear after we beat them),  

So, your question: try and convince me why, given how unaccustomed we are to this league, we should replace our Head Coach - the answer might be: because, given that we are so unaccustomed to this league (with just the eight Championship seasons in the last ten) selecting an inexperienced coach unaccustomed to this division to go up against experienced coaches very much accustomed to this division (such as Warnock and Mick at Ips and whoever else) might just end in tears.

As our current plight and league position suggests.

Our unaccustomed head coach is failing pitifully up against the unaccustomed to this division coaches (such as the one at Barnsley, Joyce at Wigan, Stam at Reading, Wagner at Huddersfield, Monk at Leeds, the fellow at Brentford, even the non-existant coach at Forest, ffs!) so what makes us think he will prevail over the accustomed to this division coaches, like Warnock, Mick McC, Grayson, Clough, Lambert etc?

I believe the "unaccustomed" argument could be applied to MK Dons (club, owner, coach) last season, and Burton (club, owner, but not coach) this, but not to us. Not the club, or it's owner; the coach, though, yes, he is "unaccustomed" to this division. Which might explain some of the doubts about him on here. But in general, the "we are not accustomed to this division" argument does not hold water, in my opinion.

If you say the players are not accustomed to this division (Hegeler, Duric, Magnusson, Giefer, Engvall) then we must look at the unaccustomed coach and ask why the unaccustomed to this division coach at Huddersfield has not experienced similar problems with his unaccustomed to this division players? And the many other overseas players doing ok or better in this division. 

Saying we are not accustomed to this division, or lack "stature," is looking too hard for excuses to explain away a bitterly disappointing season, in my opinion. 

 

Aside from all this, I wish you a full and speedy recovery, no hard feelings, and hopefully the spirit-raising boost of three points and a win on Wednesday v the more-accustomed-to-this-league Fulham.

 

[Tipps69]

4 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

To go back to your original question and post:

What gives us the right? Nothing. Not even a club's "stature" gives a club the "right" to win matches. Winning football matches has to be earned, and the shortest route to this is having better players than your opponents (which, while offering no guarantees, certainly not over 90 mins, history shows us more often than not gives you an advantage over 46 games). Which is why 95% of clubs spend every pound they can on wages and transfer fees because analysis demonstrates that overall, wages spent equals league position (and so, winning football matches). It is not rocket science.

So, an interesting comparison to make would be how much clubs spend (ie are we the 14th highest spenders, the 17th, or the 21st) and where they are in the table that counts, come the end of the season (are we 14th, 17th or 21st?)

If we are the 21st out of 24 for wages, then being 21st in the table can be expected - no surprise there. But if we are 16th highest spenders, with the talent that should get you, and we finish 21st, or 22nd say, then questions must be asked. Are we getting value for money spent? What target was set? Who is responsible for overseeing this? Was he given the tools, or sufficient, to meet the targets set?

Isn't this what every business up and down the country is doing?

Why do you think we have a god-given right to win football matches in a division we aren't exactly accustomed to? I don't think this, see answer above. No City fan I know thinks this. Where do you get this idea that "we" think this? 

No one has a "god-given" right. Which is why SL has spent £45m on revamping the ground and worked his nuts off trying to modernise this club and put us on a more equal footing with our competitors.

But what I and many others do "expect" is that SL's experience in this league - six seasons from 2007 to 2013 let us not forget; and last season - will make us more "accustomed" to this division than say, Burton Albion, a Football League club for seven seasons. And with a bit of luck, at least as "accustomed" as Brentford (owner had no previous experience of this division), Reading (owners and coach zero experience of this division), Huddersfield (coach, zero experience), Barnsley (owner, similar experience; coach, zero experience), Forest (owner, zero experience), Preston (owner, similar experience; coach, actually, you might be on to something here), Cardiff (owner, similar number of years experience; coach, hmmmmm. You could be right), Ipswich (much more accustomed, and a very accustomed coach. Funny how they have pulled clear after we beat them),  

So, your question: try and convince me why, given how unaccustomed we are to this league, we should replace our Head Coach - the answer might be: because, given that we are so unaccustomed to this league (with just the eight Championship seasons in the last ten) selecting an inexperienced coach unaccustomed to this division to go up against experienced coaches very much accustomed to this division (such as Warnock and Mick at Ips and whoever else) might just end in tears.

As our current plight and league position suggests.

Our unaccustomed head coach is failing pitifully up against the unaccustomed to this division coaches (such as the one at Barnsley, Joyce at Wigan, Stam at Reading, Wagner at Huddersfield, Monk at Leeds, the fellow at Brentford, even the non-existant coach at Forest, ffs!) so what makes us think he will prevail over the accustomed to this division coaches, like Warnock, Mick McC, Grayson, Clough, Lambert etc?

I believe the "unaccustomed" argument could be applied to MK Dons (club, owner, coach) last season, and Burton (club, owner, but not coach) this, but not to us. Not the club, or it's owner; the coach, though, yes, he is "unaccustomed" to this division. Which might explain some of the doubts about him on here. But in general, the "we are not accustomed to this division" argument does not hold water, in my opinion.

If you say the players are not accustomed to this division (Hegeler, Duric, Magnusson, Giefer, Engvall) then we must look at the unaccustomed coach and ask why the unaccustomed to this division coach at Huddersfield has not experienced similar problems with his unaccustomed to this division players? And the many other overseas players doing ok or better in this division. 

Saying we are not accustomed to this division, or lack "stature," is looking too hard for excuses to explain away a bitterly disappointing season, in my opinion. 

 

Aside from all this, I wish you a full and speedy recovery, no hard feelings, and hopefully the spirit-raising boost of three points and a win on Wednesday v the more-accustomed-to-this-league Fulham.

 

Maybe I've generalised when I've said the god-given right thing, similar to my use of the 'deserve' word when it's now been highlighted as 'expect'.

Reading a lot (and I mean a lot) of posts & threads that people were stating that we shouldn't be where we are & how they expected us to be higher in the division than where we are gave their threads & posts that feel that they felt that we had a right to be higher than where we are & my point & as you have said, we have no right, no more so than anyone else.

And then it comes down to the expenditure on transfers & the notion that we have spent so much!! We have spent lots compared to ourselves over the past & part of that is even more highlighted by the fact that we hardly spent at all the previous summer (our first back in The Championship) and we had to make up for our lack of squad depth & the new player loan rules. But if you look at the clubs that we have to compete against, we are right up against it & part of that does involve the clubs stature as you have highlighted.

We are up against clubs that have either fairly recently been in The Premier League or have been in The Championship for a considerable amount of time & with that comes the added riches & the heightened reputation & stature in the game, While Newcastle, Villa & Norwich are all able to throw £7m-£15m on players & can sign squad players at the price of our record transfer while they benefit from parachute payments, up to recently all these Championship clubs were still getting parachute payments:- Blackburn, Cardiff, Fulham, QPR, Reading, Wigan & Wolves!! Wigan will still be getting theirs next season!!

That's seven clubs that have benefited plus you then have Brighton, Brentford, Derby, Leeds, Huddersfield, Sheffield Wednesday, Ipswich, Birmingham & Forest that have the heightened stature & money from being established Championship clubs for longer than we have along with the fact that we operated with only half a stadium for a season or so recently. That's 19 clubs that have a reputation / stature of being a Championship club or higher & all the financial benefits that come with that!!

Most of the clubs in this division are able to spend £5-6-7m on a player without there being any form of fanfare or excitement, we aren't in that world yet!!

If you compare what we've spent over the last 3 or 4 years to those clubs that have had the benefits of being established in The Championship or had a time in The Premier League, we have spent very little while these clubs have been able to progress over the years & time spent in The Championship or Premier League shouldn't be underestimated when it comes to helping a clubs stature within the game. And that's without taking into account the clubs that have thrown millions at it from takeovers!! Wolves spending £13m on one player!! It's ludicrous what we are up against.

We are a small fish in a fairly large pond as was highlighted by our attempts to sign Sergi Canos from Liverpool for what would of been a club record for us, he went to Norwich to play for their reserves!! We are competing in a whole different ballgame when it comes to us signing Championship quality players & that is why we've had to sign players that for the large part, aren't Championship experienced or instantly ready for this standard of football & we've had to take gambles on players with potential or players who are untried from abroad in the hope of finding another diamond.

People go on about LJ not being up to this standard but there were very few, if any that were complaining about him in the summer after rescuing us from last season's debacle & the same can be said for the signings that were made over the summer & this January, players with international experience, players with potential, our transfer record broken for a player who had proved he could do it here & in this division & similar for our right-back position that the majority of people are rightly moaning about but no one could foresee that Tomlin & Matthews would struggle to make an impact this season as they did last. And after the first month or so when we were in the top 6 or so & Tammy was top goalscorer, there were people already discussing about us getting promotion & just a few months later LJ isn't fit to manage / coach the club.

I guess that it's just gone to prove how fickle some of our fan base is / can be.

One thing I would like to add, how do you think (this is open for anyone to respond to) other clubs look at our club? By that I mean how d'you think they are looking at us on the back of a petition to sack our head coach & our fans general disgruntlement? Because we've had threads & posts where we've questioned the sanity of some clubs because they've got rid of their manager seemingly to early or we've questioned their owners for turning their clubs into basket cases, where do you all think we stand in other clubs eyes with regards to us being sane or loopy? Because I would of thought there are a few clubs fans that wish they were us & probably a few clubs fans who think we must be 'basket cases' for what's happening at our club right now.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

4 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Maybe I've generalised when I've said the god-given right thing, similar to my use of the 'deserve' word when it's now been highlighted as 'expect'.

Reading a lot (and I mean a lot) of posts & threads that people were stating that we shouldn't be where we are & how they expected us to be higher in the division than where we are gave their threads & posts that feel that they felt that we had a right to be higher than where we are & my point & as you have said, we have no right, no more so than anyone else.

And then it comes down to the expenditure on transfers & the notion that we have spent so much!! We have spent lots compared to ourselves over the past & part of that is even more highlighted by the fact that we hardly spent at all the previous summer (our first back in The Championship) and we had to make up for our lack of squad depth & the new player loan rules. But if you look at the clubs that we have to compete against, we are right up against it & part of that does involve the clubs stature as you have highlighted.

We are up against clubs that have either fairly recently been in The Premier League or have been in The Championship for a considerable amount of time & with that comes the added riches & the heightened reputation & stature in the game, While Newcastle, Villa & Norwich are all able to throw £7m-£15m on players & can sign squad players at the price of our record transfer while they benefit from parachute payments, up to recently all these Championship clubs were still getting parachute payments:- Blackburn, Cardiff, Fulham, QPR, Reading, Wigan & Wolves!! Wigan will still be getting theirs next season!!

That's seven clubs that have benefited plus you then have Brighton, Brentford, Derby, Leeds, Huddersfield, Sheffield Wednesday, Ipswich, Birmingham & Forest that have the heightened stature & money from being established Championship clubs for longer than we have along with the fact that we operated with only half a stadium for a season or so recently. That's 19 clubs that have a reputation / stature of being a Championship club or higher & all the financial benefits that come with that!!

Most of the clubs in this division are able to spend £5-6-7m on a player without there being any form of fanfare or excitement, we aren't in that world yet!!

If you compare what we've spent over the last 3 or 4 years to those clubs that have had the benefits of being established in The Championship or had a time in The Premier League, we have spent very little while these clubs have been able to progress over the years & time spent in The Championship or Premier League shouldn't be underestimated when it comes to helping a clubs stature within the game. And that's without taking into account the clubs that have thrown millions at it from takeovers!! Wolves spending £13m on one player!! It's ludicrous what we are up against.

We are a small fish in a fairly large pond as was highlighted by our attempts to sign Sergi Canos from Liverpool for what would of been a club record for us, he went to Norwich to play for their reserves!! We are competing in a whole different ballgame when it comes to us signing Championship quality players & that is why we've had to sign players that for the large part, aren't Championship experienced or instantly ready for this standard of football & we've had to take gambles on players with potential or players who are untried from abroad in the hope of finding another diamond.

People go on about LJ not being up to this standard but there were very few, if any that were complaining about him in the summer after rescuing us from last season's debacle & the same can be said for the signings that were made over the summer & this January, players with international experience, players with potential, our transfer record broken for a player who had proved he could do it here & in this division & similar for our right-back position that the majority of people are rightly moaning about but no one could foresee that Tomlin & Matthews would struggle to make an impact this season as they did last. And after the first month or so when we were in the top 6 or so & Tammy was top goalscorer, there were people already discussing about us getting promotion & just a few months later LJ isn't fit to manage / coach the club.

I guess that it's just gone to prove how fickle some of our fan base is / can be.

One thing I would like to add, how do you think (this is open for anyone to respond to) other clubs look at our club? By that I mean how d'you think they are looking at us on the back of a petition to sack our head coach & our fans general disgruntlement? Because we've had threads & posts where we've questioned the sanity of some clubs because they've got rid of their manager seemingly to early or we've questioned their owners for turning their clubs into basket cases, where do you all think we stand in other clubs eyes with regards to us being sane or loopy? Because I would of thought there are a few clubs fans that wish they were us & probably a few clubs fans who think we must be 'basket cases' for what's happening at our club right now.

They probably just laugh at us, I do recall when we got promoted last season and our fans were crowing about winning L1 and the JPT, their reaction was like 'so', 'who cares' basically mocking that we won these trophies but were proud of it.

I'd also wager that other clubs fans look at us and think 'we should be finishing above Bristol' (not all clubs but probably the majority)

[Red Exile]

Lots of very good and thought provoking observations in this thread, in my humble opinion. Can't say that I agree with all of them - I'm very firmly in the "LJ lucky to still be with us" camp.

Just one thing gets my goat though...this notion of City fans being "fickle". I don't know any fickle City fans, the people I know are either contemporaries of mine, all of whom have stuck with the club through very little thick and a lot of thin for decades, all of whom were there in Div. 4, or they are my kids...none of whom has ever lived in Bristol and all of whom are considered eccentric in the extreme by their Prem supporting mates. My daughter will be at Newcastle on Saturday with her Liverpool supporting boyfriend. I go so far as to suggest that the folk I know are the very definition of "not-fickle". I'm not sure where the fickle thing comes from tbh...

[Tipps69]

I think that is exactly what I was trying to get at with my post, it's only our fans that see us as big & think that we should be higher up the league than what we are. Okay, maybe I think we should be a little higher but I'm not exactly surprised with roughly where we are.

[Tipps69]

3 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Lots of very good and thought provoking observations in this thread, in my humble opinion. Can't say that I agree with all of them - I'm very firmly in the "LJ lucky to still be with us" camp.

Just one thing gets my goat though...this notion of City fans being "fickle". I don't know any fickle City fans, the people I know are either contemporaries of mine, all of whom have stuck with the club through very little thick and a lot of thin for decades, all of whom were there in Div. 4, or they are my kids...none of whom has ever lived in Bristol and all of whom are considered eccentric in the extreme by their `poem supporting mates. My daughter will be at Newcastle on Saturday with her Liverpool supporting boyfriend. I go so far as to suggest that the folk I know are the very definition of "not-fickle". I'm not sure where the fickle thing comes from tbh...

But that's my observations from reading the many LJ out posts & threads. Some of our fans expectations are unrealistic!! Again, just my observation.

[KeepUpLino]

32 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

They probably just laugh at us, I do recall when we got promoted last season and our fans were crowing about winning L1 and the JPT, their reaction was like 'so', 'who cares' basically mocking that we won these trophies but were proud of it.

I'd also wager that other clubs fans look at us and think 'we should be finishing above Bristol' (not all clubs but probably the majority)

Just like Bournemouth yeah? :S