Is the keeper the problem?

[Mr Popodopolous]

We seem to have an alarmingly high ratio of goals conceded to shots on target against in this awful 4 months. Alarmingly.

Some games- the opposition have had x shots on target and scored that number of goals and won the game. Is it the defensive structure the issue? Coaching?

Instinctively- and I don't know what the underlying number say- but instinctively I thought O'Donnell in general our best keeper. Yes he made some bad blunders- most keepers do, but better than Giefer and Fielding surely? Better than Fielding and Giefer IMO- unsure we should have sold him, he seemed to improve us last year.

Like Cardiff- rocked up, had 3 shots on target- won 3-2. Example 1.

[brady bunch]

Agree ROD was the best of the 3/4 options, but as you mention his blunders were very costly.

Giefer is not perfect, but a far better option then FF, at least he comes out and claims high balls and is more commanding in his box, also made some good stops.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Coaching of keepers maybe a flaw perhaps...Giefer we'll see, we've conceded a fair few with him in goal, in fact our run has absolutely in terms of goals conceded per game got worse since Hordur was frozen out. Another curious decision, because for all that @spudski may speak about him being brought for the future and not expecting to play so much he's surely our best defender. 

[Monkeh]

no the keeper isn't the problem, and hasn't been (blunders aside of course), the keeper however continues to get the blame,

The problem is so obvious it hurts and why we never did a jot about it is astounding, The full backs are the problem, they don't tackle they don't cut out crosses, they don't overlap they stand off all the time, and it doesn't matter who is playing there which says to me that they are being told to do this,

The midfield in front of them also has a share of the blame for not tracking back,

At least if a full back commits to the tackle and misses then you should ether have a covering centre back to pick up the problem or a wide player tracking back, (if we are working as a defensive unit)

 

As it stands we don't do this, the amount of standing off and crossing coming in is nothing short of disgraceful and not something you'd want to see on a youth pitch, let alone a championship team  

[Davefevs]

You've probably seen posts where I compare us to Liverpool.

Thy don't concede chances, they concede goals.

When do you ever see Mignolet / Karius have a blinder....rarely.

Sane could be said for our plethora of keepers since we've gone up.  I don't necessarily blame them, it's more that we give up easy chances.

 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

no the keeper isn't the problem, and hasn't been (blunders aside of course), the keeper however continues to get the blame,

The problem is so obvious it hurts and why we never did a jot about it is astounding, The full backs are the problem, they don't tackle they don't cut out crosses, they don't overlap they stand off all the time, and it doesn't matter who is playing there which says to me that they are being told to do this,

The midfield in front of them also has a share of the blame for not tracking back,

At least if a full back commits to the tackle and misses then you should ether have a covering centre back to pick up the problem or a wide player tracking back, (if we are working as a defensive unit)

 

As it stands we don't do this, the amount of standing off and crossing coming in is nothing short of disgraceful and not something you'd want to see on a youth pitch, let alone a championship team  

[Lack of Action Man]

I don't think you can go through 4 keepers in one season without questioning the ever present Flint. 

Agree RE Magnusson, he is missed imo in the current team. Then again, is throwing him back in when we're in a relegation quagmire the best thing for his confidence? 

I don't know (and I'm not saying he's to blame) but I'd certainly now be looking at the only defender Johnson hasn't changed all season, and that is Flint. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

no the keeper isn't the problem, and hasn't been (blunders aside of course), the keeper however continues to get the blame,

The problem is so obvious it hurts and why we never did a jot about it is astounding, The full backs are the problem, they don't tackle they don't cut out crosses, they don't overlap they stand off all the time, and it doesn't matter who is playing there which says to me that they are being told to do this,

The midfield in front of them also has a share of the blame for not tracking back,

At least if a full back commits to the tackle and misses then you should ether have a covering centre back to pick up the problem or a wide player tracking back, (if we are working as a defensive unit)

 

As it stands we don't do this, the amount of standing off and crossing coming in is nothing short of disgraceful and not something you'd want to see on a youth pitch, let alone a championship team  

Yeah the full backs aren't fit for purpose at all. Agree with the rest of that post also- the team certainly does not move as one, not at all. Especially defensively.

Still think our keepers since we came back up haven't been much cop though, for the most part.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Bit of both for me

Keepers have been exposed by those ahead of them 

And

Each keeper has made some real blunders

Always happens when you're in a form trough 

Confidence and nerves having a large part to play

 

[Monkeh]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah the full backs aren't fit for purpose at all. Agree with the rest of that post also- the team certainly does not move as one, not at all.

Still think our keepers since we came back up haven't been much cop though, for the most part.

heaton and gerkin weren't much cop for us, one is now an england international the other hasn't played outside the championship since,

if the german or FF leave I expect them to do the same, both are good keepers being let down by tactics and a shit defense

[Nogbad the Bad]

14 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

I don't think you can go through 4 keepers in one season without questioning the ever present Flint. 

Agree RE Magnusson, he is missed imo in the current team. Then again, is throwing him back in when we're in a relegation quagmire the best thing for his confidence? 

I don't know (and I'm not saying he's to blame) but I'd certainly now be looking at the only defender Johnson hasn't changed all season, and that is Flint. 

People were similarly questioning Flint before the Newcastle game and he was outstanding.

I've seen this 'Flint's the only constant, must be a problem' thing a few times on here recently, but it's his reliability that has made him the lynch pin of the City defence under 3 successive managers and it's much more likely the constant changes around him all season, inc. keepers, is the main cause of our defensive problems.

Some posters have got it in for Flint - not saying you have OBJ - but there are several non match attending contributors to OTIB who regularly put the boot in.

Those of us who watch games can see that although Flint's not perfect, he doesn't get caught out often either, and it wouldn't make sense to either blame, or drop, your most consistent defender.

 

[Monkeh]

22 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

People were similarly questioning Flint before the Newcastle game and he was outstanding.

I've seen this 'Flint's the only constant, must be a problem' thing a few times on here recently, but it's his reliability that has made him the lynch pin of the City defence under 3 successive managers and it's much more likely the constant changes around him all season, inc. keepers, is the main cause of our defensive problems.

Some posters have got it in for Flint - not saying you have OBJ - but there are several non match attending contributors to OTIB who regularly put the boot in.

Those of us who watch games can see that although Flint's not perfect, he doesn't get caught out often either, and it wouldn't make sense to either blame, or drop, your most consistent defender.

 

I question flint, I haven't got it in for him, I think he just isn't performing to the level we know he can achieve, I take issue with the fact that he's undropable, every single player bar flint who has made a mistake no matter how big or small has been dropped, he hasn't

[...]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We seem to have an alarmingly high ratio of goals conceded to shots on target against in this awful 4 months. Alarmingly.

Some games- the opposition have had x shots on target and scored that number of goals and won the game. Is it the defensive structure the issue? Coaching?

Instinctively- and I don't know what the underlying number say- but instinctively I thought O'Donnell in general our best keeper. Yes he made some bad blunders- most keepers do, but better than Giefer and Fielding surely? Better than Fielding and Giefer IMO- unsure we should have sold him, he seemed to improve us last year.

Like Cardiff- rocked up, had 3 shots on target- won 3-2. Example 1.

You can't blame the keeper.

And we could afford to spend a couple of million there if it were needed.

I'd blame our shit tactics this season. Lee has never shored-up the defence.

Perhaps he has not realised we concede lots of goals?

Has anyone told him??

 

 

tfj

[Monkeh]

15 minutes ago, Taxi for Johnson said:

You can't blame the keeper.

And we could afford to spend a couple of million there if it were needed.

I'd blame our shit tactics this season. Lee has never shored-up the defence.

Perhaps he has not realised we concede lots of goals?

Has anyone told him??

 

 

tfj

its a fine line apparently, I told him that the thickness of the goal line has always been the same.....he didn't listen went on about me being too negative or something  

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, brady bunch said:

Agree ROD was the best of the 3/4 options, but as you mention his blunders were very costly.

Giefer is not perfect, but a far better option then FF, at least he comes out and claims high balls and is more commanding in his box, also made some good stops.

Nothing I've seen of Giefer so far makes me think he is any sort of upgrade on FF, let alone a "far better option".  I also don't get much sense of him being commanding.  Being tall does not equal commanding.

Swapping ROD for Giefer seemed like an entirely pointless exercise to me.

[MichaelRobartes]

I don't think any of our keepers this season have been particularly good, but from what I've seen Frank is our best option. In fairness I wasn't at Newcastle where FG apparently played well.

[keflav]

1 hour ago, OddBallJim said:

I don't think you can go through 4 keepers in one season without questioning the ever present Flint. 

Agree RE Magnusson, he is missed imo in the current team. Then again, is throwing him back in when we're in a relegation quagmire the best thing for his confidence? 

I don't know (and I'm not saying he's to blame) but I'd certainly now be looking at the only defender Johnson hasn't changed all season, and that is Flint. 

Have been saying this for a while and not saying Flint has become a bad player but feel it would benefit the team and the Player himself to have an period on the side lines.... Flint whilst in parts has played great he has also made Glaring errors that have cost the game too...

[BCFC_Dan]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

The problem is so obvious it hurts and why we never did a jot about it is astounding, The full backs are the problem, they don't tackle they don't cut out crosses, they don't overlap they stand off all the time, and it doesn't matter who is playing there which says to me that they are being told to do this,

Yes. Full back (and probably goalkeeper) is the last area of the team that really needs improvement and the one area where the recruitment definitely hasn't worked.

Matthews has been a disaster. He was a gamble, fortunately only a loan, but it led to us selling Ayling, and it's not worked out at all. Perhaps more disappointing is Golbourne, who it seems can best be described as "not completely incompetent".

However, even though full backs are more important than they ever used to be, I don't see how a good team with poor full backs would be doing as poorly as we have done. I'd expect the addition of good full backs and a goalkeeper to take this team from mid-table to top 6, rather than preventing relegation.

I agree then that they have an impact, and a team is only as strong as its weakest link, but I struggle to see how it can be only that.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

36 minutes ago, Taxi for Johnson said:

You can't blame the keeper.

And we could afford to spend a couple of million there if it were needed.

I'd blame our shit tactics this season. Lee has never shored-up the defence.

Perhaps he has not realised we concede lots of goals?

Has anyone told him??

 

 

tfj

The thing is, though we are leaking goals- shots on target to goals conceded ratio doesn't seem terribly high to me. Though I certainly think Hordur needs to be in the side. Perhaps the defence and the team as a whole needs to work harder on the defence- defend as a team. Hate it when full backs back off back off back off as a winger or any opposition player approaches the box. Perhaps opposition sides are more clinical than we are .

Still how many shots you allow usually has a correlation to goals...but not in our case!

Our underlying numbers are lower midtable- which is where I think we roughly should be.

http://www.footcharts.co.uk/index.cfm?task=basics_shotsontarget

[Nogbad the Bad]

43 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

I question flint, I haven't got it in for him, I think he just isn't performing to the level we know he can achieve, I take issue with the fact that he's undropable, every single player bar flint who has made a mistake no matter how big or small has been dropped, he hasn't

We all question all of our players, and that's how it should be.

In normal circumstances ( and under normal managers) players are dropped because they aren't playing well, i.e. Hordur.

Players are very rarely dropped specifically for making a mistake though - they all make them, every game.

Some are punished, others not, but it's the overall performance that's most important.

I'm not sure Flint has suffered a drop in form, his general game still seems very reliable to me.

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

heaton and gerkin weren't much cop for us, one is now an england international the other hasn't played outside the championship since,

if the german or FF leave I expect them to do the same, both are good keepers being let down by tactics and a shit defense

agreed. Heaton got some right stick here and now look at him. I alluded to this on the Geifer thread

[Lack of Action Man]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

I question flint, I haven't got it in for him, I think he just isn't performing to the level we know he can achieve, I take issue with the fact that he's undropable, every single player bar flint who has made a mistake no matter how big or small has been dropped, he hasn't

 

38 minutes ago, keflav said:

Have been saying this for a while and not saying Flint has become a bad player but feel it would benefit the team and the Player himself to have an period on the side lines.... Flint whilst in parts has played great he has also made Glaring errors that have cost the game too...

Exactly this chaps. Well said. 

Nogbad - totally respect your points, but at times it does come across like you have an agenda to over-egg how good Flint is. 

Yes, he's fairly reliable and Yes, he gives his all for the shirt but for me, at times I think he gets away with basic positional and awareness errors by the covering of Bailey Wright (and previous to that Magnusson). 

Bailey Wright has been a good acquisition actually whilst I'm on that subject.

[BobBobSuperBob]

As regards to Aden Flint 

For me he is what he is an excellent head it / kick it / throw your body in / wholehearted defender guaranteed to give %100

What he's not is a Rio Ferdinand in terms of on the ball or as good positionally as a John Terry 

Has great value if used correctly IMO

if you (LJ) believe in him and what he brings then , for me he's  somebody you need to compliment with those alongside him

Put him with (decent and settled  )three others you see the best of Aden 

For me he needs pace alongside him and somebody experienced or at least a talker who 'runs' the back four and leaves Aden to concentrate on what he does well

My single criticism of him personally is he too often loses his attacker in the 18 yard box (The movement and punishment can be brutal at this level) and often finds himself having to throw his body at the ball/ attacker from 3-4 yards away, which is too far inside the penalty box

 

Hes not the most balanced / agile so is always likely to find good movement a headache but he can , and I am sure will, improve with experience and find a way to at least minimise this problem

I was at the 1988 European Championships to see a gangly awkward looking youngish England Centre Half made to look like a pub player , a complete donkey, by Marco Van Basten and a couple of Russians - Seriously made to look Non League - was painful and embarrassing to watch as some will remember

He learnt and as he got older got better and better (A la John Terry to a large degree) to become (IMHO) one of England's best centre halves as he proved in 96 and 98

 

Tony Adams

[Nogbad the Bad]

17 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

 

Exactly this chaps. Well said. 

Nogbad - totally respect your points, but at times it does come across like you have an agenda to over-egg how good Flint is. 

Yes, he's fairly reliable and Yes, he gives his all for the shirt but for me, at times I think he gets away with basic positional and awareness errors by the covering of Bailey Wright (and previous to that Magnusson). 

Bailey Wright has been a good acquisition actually whilst I'm on that subject.

Fair enough OBJ, I say it as I see it but perhaps I say it too often in Flint's case. 

I'll try keep off the next few Flint threads!

As for Bailey Wright, from what I've seen he's been no more than 'OK', but he's settling in, and as with Flint, I like his attitude.

If we had 11 players with their mindset we'd be fine imo.

[Monkeh]

4 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Fair enough OBJ, I say it as I see it but perhaps I say it too often in Flint's case. 

I'll try keep off the next few Flint threads!

As for Bailey Wright, from what I've seen he's been no more than 'OK', but he's settling in, and as with Flint, I like his attitude.

If we had 11 players with their mindset we'd be fine imo.

if we had a team told to press and put a tackle in, we'd be more then fine

[Lack of Action Man]

1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Fair enough OBJ, I say it as I see it but perhaps I say it too often in Flint's case. 

I'll try keep off the next few Flint threads!

As for Bailey Wright, from what I've seen he's been no more than 'OK', but he's settling in, and as with Flint, I like his attitude.

If we had 11 players with their mindset we'd do fine imo.

Which brings us neatly back to LJ! The manager should be able to instil that mentality into the players. 

Some, like Flint and Wright have it already. Others need it built up from within them by their manager. 

Can we honestly say that LJ has shown that he has the man-management skills to make our players not only want to run through walls but BELIEVE they can do? For me, I haven't once seen evidence that LJ has this in his locker. And when you combine that with his incessant cliche drivel he gives post match every week, I struggle to understand how his time spent studying army and NHS managers has been of any benefit at all! 

[RedM]

I'm a big Flint fan, always supported him. But, well he's not having his best season is he. Yes the passion is there, can't fault that but I think many teams have sussed him and how we use him. When he is on form he is immense, but other times he has floundered. 

I honestly think he is being persevered with because LJ thinks he has goals in him, besides his defensive duties of course. Well they have been few and far between this year. Most times we have a free kick, corner etc the ball is being aimed at Flinty who has pretty much done nothing with it, I've even seen him knock our players out of balance to get the ball, players who have been better placed or our natural  goal scorers. Again I'm not knocking his commitment in getting the ball but it usually comes to nothing or a frantic dash back down the pitch and a last ditch challenge as the ball has gone straight to an opposing player.

i would leave him in defence, but make that his only role for much of the game. Leave the attacking to the strikers, midfield. Of course I'm not saying never be on the end of a corner etc but leave that to those game it is. Maybe then too there wouldn't be such a mad panic to defend a counter attack which has caught us out many times. We have got a great corner taker now on loan, use his ability to get the ball to those who got the goals in them. Not a centre back who is hit and miss and often hoofs it in the goal area, leave that for the other end of the pitch.

Edit: I think Flint has a lot of dressing room power and influence, you want Flint to be playing and happy.

[RegDog]

We are playing two right footed centre halves and Flint simply hasn't been consistently performing and some time out of the team may help him address this. Bring back in Hordur on the left of centre and Wright on the other side. I am sure Wright would be equally good for Vyner (to talk and guide) who should be given a run at RB now. What we lack in a bit of height we may gain from distributing the ball from the back better.

All in all not much to choose between Frankie and Giefer and would suggest we give the German the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Taz]

Is the argument with Flint more like the Gerrard/Lampard situation England came across? Individually they're great, but together they just didn't work. 

Bear with me. 

Nobody is saying Flint is useless, and he is going to make mistakes - if he didn't he wouldn't be playing here. Simple as. Could it be though, that we don't have a decent partner for him? Could it just be that a partnership of Wright and Hordur would just work better as they compliment each other more?

I'm not saying the solution is to drop Flint and play the other two, but it may help in the short term. Flints also played the majority of games in the past 3 seasons I would guess off the top of my head as well. Perhaps a break would benefit him....

The biggest issue for me, as others have said, is either both full back positions and/or the way the team is defending as a unit. Close the attacker down, don't give them space, and make it more difficult for teams to get in from the wings. There's too many times where we're "too respectful". Get into them. 

[BCFC_Dan]

I see criticism of Flint now and I think of criticism of Jamie McCombe 6 or so years ago.

Most weeks somebody would be posting on here about how limited he was, how he was the weak link in the side and how we'd be better off without him.

Eventually he was moved on, along with others of "limited ability", replaced by supposedly better players but who had not a fraction of his heart and desire.

Sometimes with something like that you don't realise what the player was doing until they're gone and then it's too late.

That's not to say they cannot and should not be replaced with technically better players, but that one has to be incredibly careful when doing so. We've already seen much of the spirit of the 14/15 squad drain away over the past 2 seasons. With Wilbraham ageing, Smith marginal this season, and Flint in the firing line, that spirited spine is almost gone. Those in charge at the club will need to think very carefully about the replacements.