Fordy62 Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 12 hours ago, handsofclay said: Of course Nigel is wrong. After all, absolutely loads of crap teams get a draw at Newcastle in front of a full house! If we were to be relegated, maybe we should put that forward as a defence in a Rovers style court case? Your honour, we simply cannot be relegated because we drew away at Newcastle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hunt-Hertz Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 12 hours ago, handsofclay said: Of course Nigel is wrong. After all, absolutely loads of crap teams get a draw at Newcastle in front of a full house! We drew at Rotherham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 win in 15games says we have been very unlucky........or have yet another rubbish manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsofclay Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Fordy62 said: If we were to be relegated, maybe we should put that forward as a defence in a Rovers style court case? Your honour, we simply cannot be relegated because we drew away at Newcastle. My argument isn't that we are too good to go down it is that we can't be crap to have got a score draw at top of the table Newcastle. I am saying that the evidence displays that we are not crap but are, for the most part, punching below our weight. If we avoid relegation by upping our performances in the remaining games it will provide further testimony to the fact that we aren't crap. It will be achieved, after all, with the same players. Whether or not it is with the same manager remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tts_city Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 17 minutes ago, handsofclay said: My argument isn't that we are too good to go down it is that we can't be crap to have got a score draw at top of the table Newcastle. I am saying that the evidence displays that we are not crap but are, for the most part, punching below our weight. If we avoid relegation by upping our performances in the remaining games it will provide further testimony to the fact that we aren't crap. It will be achieved, after all, with the same players. Whether or not it is with the same manager remains to be seen. Most players can lift themselves for a 52000 crowd in a brilliant stadium against pretty much a prem team, the question is why cant they perform like that more often ? LJ signed alot of players, LJ picks the tactics, LJ does the motivating, LJ picks the team, hmmmmm I wonder what the constant in all that might be ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsofclay Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 hour ago, tts_city said: Most players can lift themselves for a 52000 crowd in a brilliant stadium against pretty much a prem team, the question is why cant they perform like that more often ? LJ signed alot of players, LJ picks the tactics, LJ does the motivating, LJ picks the team, hmmmmm I wonder what the constant in all that might be ? If that's the case why are Newcastle, with this disadvantage, top of the league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tts_city Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 14 minutes ago, handsofclay said: If that's the case why are Newcastle, with this disadvantage, top of the league? What disadvantage is that then ? I didnt say they all win up there did I, but you have to admit is was a far better performance, then back to type. so whats your theory ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22A Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 Just for argument's sake; it's frequently stated by "studio experts" that teams at the bottom never get any luck. Turning that phrase on it's head, it's teams without luck who get bad results. In support of this theory, think about pens given or not, dubious off side decisions, corners when it should have been a goal kick etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsofclay Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, tts_city said: What disadvantage is that then ? I didnt say they all win up there did I, but you have to admit is was a far better performance, then back to type. so whats your theory sherlock ? You did say that most players can lift themselves for a 52,000 crowd in a brilliant stadium which means that every home game Newcastle play they are up against teams where most players play better than they normally do. I would say, therefore, it would be more advantageous for them to play in front of ten thousand in a ramshackle stadium as it would then be implied, using the same argument, that most players they are up against would play even crappier than they normally do. I would surmise, using the evidence supplied by the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester United etc who continue to play in front of massive crowds in brilliant stadia, that they actually find it an advantage to do so. Thus any team who gets a result at such a ground, particularly when that team is top of their league, isn't crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tts_city Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 minute ago, handsofclay said: You did say that most players can lift themselves for a 52,000 crowd in a brilliant stadium which means that every home game Newcastle play they are up against teams where most players play better than they normally do. I would say, therefore, it would be more advantageous for them to play in front of ten thousand in a ramshackle stadium as it would then be implied, using the same argument, that most players they are up against would play even crappier than they normally do. I would surmise, using the evidence supplied by the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester United etc who continue to play in front of massive crowds in brilliant stadia, that they actually find it an advantage to do so. Thus any team who gets a result at such a ground, particularly when that team is top of their league, isn't crap! they win because they are the better team, the other teams performance level may increase but its not enough and yes playing in front of such a crowd lifts the home team anyway. So again whats your theory on why we are shit ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, 22A said: Just for argument's sake; it's frequently stated by "studio experts" that teams at the bottom never get any luck. Turning that phrase on it's head, it's teams without luck who get bad results. In support of this theory, think about pens given or not, dubious off side decisions, corners when it should have been a goal kick etc. I don't know if it's luck but it's human nature a bit I think for refs to give fouls to opposition that have been near the top for a few years or come from a higher league. Shouldn't be that way but it must go into it some. Some of the fouls not given to us this year have been countered with soft ones given for opposition at times. This of course isn't enough for us to be in the position we are in. We should still be a mid table team but now we are in this position will make it tougher in the games coming up. I can see Norwich getting the benefit of the doubt on Tuesday night if duck an occasion arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 31 minutes ago, handsofclay said: If that's the case why are Newcastle, with this disadvantage, top of the league? I listened to a Newcastle Podcast this week, true faith it's called, they classed us as a very poor team. There opinion was that they gifted us 2 goals, ( hard to argue) the only credit they gave us was a back to the wall last 10 minutes that stopped them from getting 3 points. Im not saying I totally agree with what they say or not, I'm just saying that a draw at Newcastle doesn't change anything, after all, 3 days later we lose to a very poor Villa side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockneydave Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 hour ago, tts_city said: Most players can lift themselves for a 52000 crowd in a brilliant stadium against pretty much a prem team, the question is why cant they perform like that more often ? LJ signed alot of players, LJ picks the tactics, LJ does the motivating, LJ picks the team, hmmmmm I wonder what the constant in all that might be ? I wonder if LJ picks the booing moaning fans?Helps the team no end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 We were unlucky in a lot of games under cotterill last year as well. It didn't mean we didn't deserve to be Where we were. People just notice and bang on about the unlucky things that happen when your down the bottom. Hitting the crossbar twice could be considered unlucky but conceding 2 and also having a penalty missed against you nullifys that argument. Being 3-0 and 2-0 up at top teams and drawing is not unlucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperor Palpatine Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, sodburyred said: We were unlucky in a lot of games under cotterill last year as well. It didn't mean we didn't deserve to be Where we were. People just notice and bang on about the unlucky things that happen when your down the bottom. Hitting the crossbar twice could be considered unlucky but conceding 2 and also having a penalty missed against you nullifys that argument. Being 3-0 and 2-0 up at top teams and drawing is not unlucky. Not in the last 3 months we weren't... we were utter garbage. The performances away were shambolic with the exception of Huddersfield (where we did have some good fortune) to say the least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finbarr_in_z Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 16 hours ago, Vincent Vega said: I like Clough, same character as his Dad unsurprisingly, but he's just being polite the league table does not not lie or include hard luck stories. Teams are where they are on merit ...and we're shit. Living in the area I've met Nigel on a couple of occasions (opened the school where I'm a governor for example). He comes across as shy as they come. Never met his dad, but mates from Derby have confirmed that he was as brash & outgoing as his public persona indicates. Chalk & cheese then (both Carbon based but vastly different). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man in the middle Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 as said before, mind games. we know better than that, we're sh@t. look at the penalty miss against us on Tuesdays night, no bad luck involved, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italian dave Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 hour ago, tts_city said: What disadvantage is that then ? I didnt say they all win up there did I, but you have to admit is was a far better performance, then back to type. so whats your theory ? But Newcastle wasn't a one off, was it? We put in decent performances at Derby, at Leeds, at Reading, at Birmingham and so on. Forest and Villa 2nd half aside our "type" away from home isn't poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italian dave Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 This whole thread, OP aside, has been about whether we have been unlucky. But that's not what Clough said. He said we haven't had that bit of luck. There's a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tts_city Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, italian dave said: But Newcastle wasn't a one off, was it? We put in decent performances at Derby, at Leeds, at Reading, at Birmingham and so on. Forest and Villa 2nd half aside our "type" away from home isn't poor. We gave up a three goal lead at derby, Leeds we lost 2-1, Reading we Lost 2-1, Birmingham and Forest we Lost 1-0, those are examples of decent performances for you ? **** me your easy pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsofclay Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 hour ago, tts_city said: they win because they are the better team, the other teams performance level may increase but its not enough and yes playing in front of such a crowd lifts the home team anyway. So again whats your theory on why we are shit ? So, it lifts the home team as well! Then we did well to get a point there last week. Why should I have to postulate a theory on why we are crap when it is you who are making that claim. I am saying that we are not crap. Please read my posts. I come on stating that we are not crap, as Nigel Clough states, yet you have now twice asked me to give my theory on why I think we are crap! Bizarre!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tts_city Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, handsofclay said: So, it lifts the home team as well! Then we did well to get a point there last week. Why should I have to postulate a theory on why we are crap when it is you who are making that claim. I am saying that we are not crap. Please read my posts. I come on stating that we are not crap, as Nigel Clough states, yet you have now twice asked me to give my theory on why I think we are crap! Bizarre!!! The table doesnt lie. As for the rest, you descibed it as "punching below our weight" so go on then why are we punching below our weight hair splitter ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 hour ago, handsofclay said: If that's the case why are Newcastle, with this disadvantage, top of the league? You mean a team with millions of parachute payments, £30m + from the sale of Townsend before the season started, premier league quality players and a Champions League winning manager and 50,000 fans at every home game and the additional revenue that gives them.? We could do with their disadvantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Emperor Palpatine said: Not in the last 3 months we weren't... we were utter garbage. The performances away were shambolic with the exception of Huddersfield (where we did have some good fortune) to say the least Although I broadly agree we were bad, I think it is fair to say we have done and been no better the last three months this season, further enhancing the arguments against retaining our current head coach. We had the opposite problem in Cotts' final days; we were too predictable and had no flexibility. This season we've swung the pendulum the opposite way, and I think this has broadly been to our detriment. As for the discussion over 'hard luck'; no team is simply unlucky for as long as we have been. And we've ignored the fact we've benefited from moments in our favour this season too, but that just haven't helped much - the pen against Reading at home was soft, on two occasion (Huddersfield away, Newcastle away) Wilbs has either scored or set up a goal from an offside position. There are other examples, but we tend to forget them as they ultimately didn't help us much. We're not unlucky; we're playing and doing badly - better to admit these things and assess the situation in the clear light of day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsofclay Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 38 minutes ago, downendcity said: You mean a team with millions of parachute payments, £30m + from the sale of Townsend before the season started, premier league quality players and a Champions League winning manager and 50,000 fans at every home game and the additional revenue that gives them.? We could do with their disadvantages. This is precisely why I stated that we did well to get a draw there last week!!! I was being a bit tongue in cheek saying they had a disadvantage playing at home in front of 50,000 Geordies in response to a poster stating that most players raise their game when playing there so it meant that a team could get a result there and still be crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsofclay Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 57 minutes ago, tts_city said: The table doesnt lie. As for the rest, you descibed it as "punching below our weight" so go on then why are we punching below our weight hair splitter ? And currently we are not in a relegation position. Most posters on here were ecstatic with our signings in the summer plus the acquisition of Tammy Abraham for a season. I believe most City fans would have said that we had a far better squad than the one we finished last season with. Therefore, the fact we are just above the relegation zone and in a far worse position than the form that team displayed in the second half of last season and the first three months of this leads me to the conclusion that we are a better team than current form suggests and currently punching below our weight. Surely, it stands to reason. If we were punching our weight nobody would be upset on here!!! If we were punching above our weight everyone would be happy! Therefore, we are punching below our weight. Is there anything else you would like me to explain? Only you keep on at me to either explain the bleeding obvious or to explain why I think something is the opposite of what I have clearly stated I think it is. Odd, that you ask me to answer things and when I do I am called a hair-splitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tts_city Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 14 minutes ago, handsofclay said: This is precisely why I stated that we did well to get a draw there last week!!! I was being a bit tongue in cheek saying they had a disadvantage playing at home in front of 50,000 Geordies in response to a poster stating that most players raise their game when playing there so it meant that a team could get a result there and still be crap. My point was the players upped there game despite the manager and tactics and came away with a draw, the team are playing crap, that you cannot deny, its why and I know where i put the blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tts_city Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, handsofclay said: And currently we are not in a relegation position. Most posters on here were ecstatic with our signings in the summer plus the acquisition of Tammy Abraham for a season. I believe most City fans would have said that we had a far better squad than the one we finished last season with. Therefore, the fact we are just above the relegation zone and in a far worse position than the form that team displayed in the second half of last season and the first three months of this leads me to the conclusion that we are a better team than current form suggests and currently punching below our weight. Surely, it stands to reason. If we were punching our weight nobody would be upset on here!!! If we were punching above our weight everyone would be happy! Therefore, we are punching below our weight. Is there anything else you would like me to explain? Only you keep on at me to either explain the bleeding obvious or to explain why I think something is the opposite of what I have clearly stated I think it is. Odd, that you ask me to answer things and when I do I am called a hair-splitter. All i wanted was your opinion on why you think we are punching below our weight, again you havent answered, its not dificult flower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handsofclay Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, tts_city said: My point was the players upped there game despite the manager and tactics and came away with a draw, the team are playing cra[, that you cannot deny, its why and I know where i put the blame. If the players upped their game but usually play crap it further proves that they are punching below their weight. If the players were truly crap they would have been tonked at Newcastle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, handsofclay said: And currently we are not in a relegation position. Most posters on here were ecstatic with our signings in the summer plus the acquisition of Tammy Abraham for a season. I believe most City fans would have said that we had a far better squad than the one we finished last season with. Therefore, the fact we are just above the relegation zone and in a far worse position than the form that team displayed in the second half of last season and the first three months of this leads me to the conclusion that we are a better team than current form suggests and currently punching below our weight. Surely, it stands to reason. If we were punching our weight nobody would be upset on here!!! If we were punching above our weight everyone would be happy! Therefore, we are punching below our weight. Don't disagree with the general thrust of your argument, but just a couple of thing regards the highlighted portions; We are outside the relegation zone on goal difference, with the side level with us holding a game in hand - so while the statement is technically true, that position is so perilous and outside of our own influence, I think we need to avoid using it as any sort of qualifying statement. Unless we better Blackburn's result today, that won't change, which is a terrible scenario to find ourselves in. As for the squad; actively debatable. We certainly have more quality, but not necessarily the balance - we have no full backs of reliable quality at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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