Angus Scott

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Olé said:

Personally I wouldn't say the owner buggers up our managers' chances, but I do think that NOW there is something more than is visible to us, that explains the stubbornness and may relate to the level of influence and access the owner has with the incumbent. You can pick up on it even from direct quotes. 

Cotterill's successful season was the exception because we'd dug such a big hole, I believe he was given free reign. We didn't hear about pillars or structure. Whether or not the time was right to sack Cotterill, the haste we got Johnson and returned to prior operating strategy tells me it was always the aim.

Lansdown rode the Cotterill horse on Cotterill's terms as long as it got us up the league, when it faltered, it was always back to plan A - and quickly. There is nothing necessarily wrong with Plan A, but in parallel I suggest SL's interest also evolved as the structure could afford him greater insight and control.

That is natural for any business leader. And if you look at Lansdown's tenure of the football club, he's gone from the starry eyed owner who bonded with Gary Johnson and picked up the mic now and again to get affirmation from fans, to having to become more personally involved due to managerial turnover.

That's come to a head this season with a family friend as "head coach", and a far more bullish and secure position for him with a giant new stand with his name on it that he sits atop. I think it's far more symbolic for him that we realise. The humbled, shy, low-confidence custodian of the club is now firmly entrenched. 

As stated elsewhere, my guess is he now does have access and influence over footballing matters - even if it's through passive manipulation - and that is a contributing factor to the retention of Lee Jonhson. The Lansdown of old would've been terrified of not being popular - he doesn't seek to appease us now.

I agree with much of that, O. 

I'm not sure about the last bit though. I've never met Steve Lansdown, but he told someone in my family that he "doesn't pretend to know more about football than the average fan". The fact he's not in England for much of the time would seem to underline that he is pretty hands-off the day-to-day matters - unlike many owners I could name who think being star midfielder in their primary school team makes them an expert!  Lansdown, of course, went to a rugby only school.

What this sorry episode does show - as you note - is the danger of employing friends. We might have hoped that a shrewd businessman like Steve L would have realised that.

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

It seems that ex managers sign confidentiality clauses when they are sacked, so as not to spill the beans. Otherwise why do they all keep silent.

Because they wouldn`t get another job if they got a reputation for washing dirty linen in public?

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

I agree with much of that, O. 

I'm not sure about the last bit though. I've never met Steve Lansdown, but he told someone in my family that he "doesn't pretend to know more about football than the average fan". The fact he's not in England for much of the time would seem to underline that he is pretty hands-off the day-to-day matters - unlike many owners I could name who think being star midfielder in their primary school team makes them an expert!  Lansdown, of course, went to a rugby only school.

What this sorry episode does show - as you note - is the danger of employing friends. We might have hoped that a shrewd businessman like Steve L would have realised that.

Other than debriefing  LJ with Ashton after each match 'What went well and what didn't go well' were his words and having a longer discussion with Junior on the Sunday or Monday once Junior had rewatched the game - Lansdowns own words

[Red-Robbo]

22 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Other than debriefing  LJ with Ashton after each match 'What went well and what didn't go well' were his words and having a longer discussion with Junior on the Sunday or Monday once Junior had rewatched the game - Lansdowns own words

I'd be disappointed if an owner didn't speak to the manager after matches.  I know I would if I was one. That's different from "interfering" though.

The irony here is we both want Lansdown to step in and get more involved now. By sacking LJ!

[winterbournered]

5 hours ago, old parkender said:

Cotts was far from innocent but it got to a stand off between him and the owners. Ask around about the gray, Gayle and maguire transfers, that was the start of the  friction which escalated as the season progressed. As an aside, do you think that steve cotterills record with city was better or worse than our current manager?

Doesn't really matter because reading this rubbish ( not your post in particular but some of the rubbish before ) SL picks the team. The managers are irrelevant....

[lenred]

2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

It seems that ex managers sign confidentiality clauses when they are sacked, so as not to spill the beans. Otherwise why do they all keep silent.

As I said already, I understand that. Just don't get how they would all (it wouldn't just be managers, it would be associated personnel as well) keep schtum. It's a lot of gagging orders if it's true!  Something definitely dodgy going on this year though, of that there can be no doubt. 

[cidered abroad]

2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

It seems that ex managers sign confidentiality clauses when they are sacked, so as not to spill the beans. Otherwise why do they all keep silent.

Probably because spilling the beans as you say, means that no other club would take a risk that they would do the same again. It's sort of like the way Mafia operates or the old proverb of "Never $hit on your own doorstep".

[View from the Dolman]

Just now, cidered abroad said:

Probably because spilling the beans as you say, means that no other club would take a risk that they would do the same again. It's sort of like the way Mafia operates or the old proverb of "Never $hit on your own doorstep".

But football people talk. And everybody in football knows everything about the club. I know that's true. I read it on here.

[BobBobSuperBob]

54 minutes ago, winterbournered said:

Doesn't really matter because reading this rubbish ( not your post in particular but some of the rubbish before ) SL picks the team. The managers are irrelevant....

Well SL certainly picks managers who become irrelevant

Hes a master at it

[cidered abroad]

4 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

But football people talk. And everybody in football knows everything about the club. I know that's true. I read it on here.

But it rarely gets outside of the "football people" because they are all dependent on each other for continuing employment.  

[BobBobSuperBob]

34 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

But it rarely gets outside of the "football people" because they are all dependent on each other for continuing employment.  

Dressing room stuff often does due to the numbers and types involved

Boardroom , less so for the same reasons

But the cringeworthy attempt by the Poster at sarcasm is lost as he doesn't understand the difference !

[JHAGa]

8 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

So the fact that we had not got out of the bottom three and his last season here makes the current one look like a success is irrelevant then?

Sorry. I'm calling BS. If he'd had a huge bust-up over transfers he'd have walked at the start of the season, not after playing the same failing formation for 6 bloody months.

Do you think the Lansdowns told him to stick with his failing tactics?  If so,  why was Pemberton able to instantly change them and get more success. 

Criticise the board by all means but take off the rose-coloured specs regarding Cotterill's ability as a Championship manager. 

 

He didn't want to let down the players the same way the board had let him down. The players and him had a great spirit, especially at that time. How could he walk out on them after the season they'd just have? He at least gave it a try despite clearly not being happy with how the summer transfer window's events had unfolded. Unfortunately, he was left with a squad of about 15 first team players who were mostly playing in the Championship for the first time. One bad run and he gets sacked, just months after the season he had given us. Pathetic.

 

I would take SC back in a heartbeat.

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, JHAGa said:

 

He didn't want to let down the players the same way the board had let him down. The players and him had a great spirit, especially at that time. How could he walk out on them after the season they'd just have? He at least gave it a try despite clearly not being happy with how the summer transfer window's events had unfolded. Unfortunately, he was left with a squad of about 15 first team players who were mostly playing in the Championship for the first time. One bad run and he gets sacked, just months after the season he had given us. Pathetic.

 

I would take SC back in a heartbeat.

Bit revisionist that. The bad run lasted for 6 months.  He left at a time we were even worse than we are now.

Had he "not wanted to let the players down" maybe he could have tried playing them in a different formation - you know like Pembo and Johnson did - in which case they might not have found themselves worried about relegation for half the season.

No, Lansdown sacked Cotterill at the right time. The fact that he hasn't done that with Johnson doesn't make previous managers any less deserving of their P45s. 

[JHAGa]

59 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Bit revisionist that. The bad run lasted for 6 months.  He left at a time we were even worse than we are now.

Had he "not wanted to let the players down" maybe he could have tried playing them in a different formation - you know like Pembo and Johnson did - in which case they might not have found themselves worried about relegation for half the season.

No, Lansdown sacked Cotterill at the right time. The fact that he hasn't done that with Johnson doesn't make previous managers any less deserving of their P45s. 

 

Bad run that was due to the shambles of a summer the board brought about. Do you think Cotterill wanted a squad that size? Funny, because when we got promoted in April he said they would now look to the transfer window and try and use our early promotion as an advantage in the transfer market.

 

The formation wasn't the problem at all. The lack of squad depth and inexperience was. You think we would have struggled if we had Gray up front alongside Kodjia? Maguire in defence? Judge in midfield? SC's ambition was high, he really wanted to move forward, unlike the board's apparent ambition despite the talk always being of aiming for the Premier League. That was the perfect time to move the club on but instead the biggest shambles of a transfer window ever occured. Credit to SC for biting his tongue and not walking away from the players/fans. The one signing he did bring in was a diamond, mind. Notable how when Kodjia left in the summer, he put up a picture on his instagram thanking SC for all he'd done for him. That's how a lot of the players clearly felt about SC.

 

The guy worked wonders here and I was completely against his appointment when he first came in. Come back Steve!

[Atticus]

1 minute ago, JHAGa said:

 

Bad run that was due to the shambles of a summer the board brought about. Do you think Cotterill wanted a squad that size? Funny, because when we got promoted in April he said they would now look to the transfer window and try and use our early promotion as an advantage in the transfer market.

 

The formation wasn't the problem at all. The lack of squad depth and inexperience was. You think we would have struggled if we had Gray up front alongside Kodjia? Maguire in defence? Judge in midfield? SC's ambition was high, he really wanted to move forward, unlike the board's apparent ambition despite the talk always being of aiming for the Premier League. That was the perfect time to move the club on but instead the biggest shambles of a transfer window ever occured. Credit to SC for biting his tongue and not walking away from the players/fans. The one signing he did bring in was a diamond, mind. Notable how when Kodjia left in the summer, he put up a picture on his instagram thanking SC for all he'd done for him. That's how a lot of the players clearly felt about SC.

 

The guy worked wonders here and I was completely against his appointment when he first came in. Come back Steve!

Fully agree.

I feel SC was treated like ****. It still makes me angry thinking about how the board ****** everything up that summer, and continue to do so now.

[steviestevieneville]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I'd be disappointed if an owner didn't speak to the manager after matches.  I know I would if I was one. That's different from "interfering" though.

The irony here is we both want Lansdown to step in and get more involved now. By sacking LJ!

The trouble is he also said that he gives him advice ! What advise could he possibly give him ? 

[Red-Robbo]

13 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

Bad run that was due to the shambles of a summer the board brought about. Do you think Cotterill wanted a squad that size? Funny, because when we got promoted in April he said they would now look to the transfer window and try and use our early promotion as an advantage in the transfer market.

 

The formation wasn't the problem at all. The lack of squad depth and inexperience was. You think we would have struggled if we had Gray up front alongside Kodjia? Maguire in defence? Judge in midfield? SC's ambition was high, he really wanted to move forward, unlike the board's apparent ambition despite the talk always being of aiming for the Premier League. That was the perfect time to move the club on but instead the biggest shambles of a transfer window ever occured. Credit to SC for biting his tongue and not walking away from the players/fans. The one signing he did bring in was a diamond, mind. Notable how when Kodjia left in the summer, he put up a picture on his instagram thanking SC for all he'd done for him. That's how a lot of the players clearly felt about SC.

 

The guy worked wonders here and I was completely against his appointment when he first came in. Come back Steve!

He won L1 handsomely with an itty bitty squad and - as I point out elsewhere - had we given Gray his full wage demands we'd have had to lose other players to comply with FFP.  Remember,  we were playing to crowds of 12,500 the season before, due to the building work.

I just don't buy this "the board cancelled done deals while Cotterill was on holiday" idea. It doesn't stack up. He had set his sights on two players only - one wanted understandably to stay in the Prem, the other was aware of interest from richer clubs so was always going to end up at Burnley - no matter how "cordial" our initial talks with him may have been. 

This happens everywhere and every close season. Clubs fail to land targets. Most managers don't just fixate on two though and have already started sounding out alternatives - especially if they are at clubs who have already won the league by April.

Kodj.  A good one. But also Ryan Fredricks. I guess he was the board's fault too....

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

The trouble is he also said that he gives him advice ! What advise could he possibly give him ? 

I doubt it's football advice. More likely general pointers on how to face the press etc.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

I doubt it's football advice. More likely general pointers on how to face the press etc.

That might explain why he's so ridiculously awful in interview then !!!!!

Steve Lansdown advising on how to deal with the press 

Hmmmmmm

Says it all really

Nothing like advice from an expert 

[exAtyeoMax]

29 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

He didn't want to let down the players the same way the board had let him down. The players and him had a great spirit, especially at that time. How could he walk out on them after the season they'd just have? He at least gave it a try despite clearly not being happy with how the summer transfer window's events had unfolded. Unfortunately, he was left with a squad of about 15 first team players who were mostly playing in the Championship for the first time. One bad run and he gets sacked, just months after the season he had given us. Pathetic.

 

I would take SC back in a heartbeat.

Just popped up on my YouTube page…

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, BobBobSuperBob said:

That might explain why he's so ridiculously awful in interview then !!!!!

Steve Lansdown advising on how to deal with the press 

Hmmmmmm

Says it all really

Nothing like advice from an expert 

Can't agree Bob. His interview style is considerably more polished than most of AG's previous denizens.

If only I could say the same about his management style.

[JHAGa]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

He won L1 handsomely with an itty bitty squad and - as I point out elsewhere - had we given Gray his full wage demands we'd have had to lose other players to comply with FFP.  Remember,  we were playing to crowds of 12,500 the season before, due to the building work.

I just don't buy this "the board cancelled done deals while Cotterill was on holiday" idea. It doesn't stack up. He had set his sights on two players only - one wanted understandably to stay in the Prem, the other was aware of interest from richer clubs so was always going to end up at Burnley - no matter how "cordial" our initial talks with him may have been. 

This happens everywhere and every close season. Clubs fail to land targets. Most managers don't just fixate on two though and have already started sounding out alternatives - especially if their clubs that have already won the league by April.

Kodj.  A good one. But also Ryan Fredricks. I guess he was the board's fault too....

No idea what you mean by itty bitty squad? He completely changed our club within 18 months, had us playing beautiful football and we made it look easy from the first day of the season to the last. That summer we lost JET, Saville, Tavernier, Elliott, Wagstaff and Cunningham. I imagine SC allowed that to happen as he didn't envisage us completely messing up in the window forthcoming. We'd have failed to comply with FFP? Wasn't QPR's punishment for that promotion? FFP is flawed. If we're making big bids for players, which the board sanctioned, we should be prepared to pay the wages expected. Otherwise, we get made to look amateur, as was what happened.

I can't say for sure whether the cancelled done deals rumour is true. However, we have a history of messing managers around in the transfer market and if asked whether to put my faith in SC or the board with that history, it's SC every time. You can't compare the summer to an average summer window where a club misses out on targets. Something was clearly amiss and we were left with a pitiful squad lacking depth. You can't genuinely think SC wanted a squad of that size and strength, surely? Going completely against his comments from before the summer. The upbeat club and manager quickly turned sour, all momentum lost and SC was the fall guy.

Fredericks is a good Championship player that left for personal reasons. What position have we often found ourselves lacking in this season?

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Can't agree Bob. His interview style is considerably more polished than most of AG's previous denizens.

If only I could say the same about his management style.

I ignore polish as it's the content that's the only important thing and I'd say he's one of the worst , one of the very worst , I've seen in football , let alone at our Club

He absolutely screams buzzwords and bullshit and I can't believe anyone can avoid it no matter how blind their faith - it certainly doesn't with the players

Dont get me started on the ' I love the club ' , outing players , shifting blame ete etc

IMHO It's the complete drivel he spouts that in large part has led to a lot of anger and dislike in the fanabse

Pitiful IMHO

O'Driscoll one of the few who might outdo him, but at least he understands the game and didn't bullshit to make himself look something he wasn't 

[Gert Mare]

9 hours ago, old parkender said:

No he got the bullet because of a massive fall out with the Lansdowns over their interference in transfers and playing matters. Cotts would not bend the knee to sir Steven 

Yep. Cotts laid it on the line that promoting academy players in the Championship was a no no. He wanted proven quality whether they were under 24 or over. Lansdown said no. Then no signings were made, Cotterill was pissy as **** and then the joke last minute bids were made for Gray and Gayle to try and make it look like City were serious. Then they left Cotts to work with what he had and it failed. He couldn't play his 3-5-2 because the quality wasn't there but continued with it almost to prove a point and as a result got the Sir Steve bullet.

[Mendip City]

5 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Just popped up on my YouTube page…

Oh to see that repeated tomorrow!  

Who better to give it a go for 6 games and even if relegated, who better to try to get us straight back? 

Trouble is he wants to be a manager - that's not part of the master plan, is it? 

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, JHAGa said:

No idea what you mean by itty bitty squad? He completely changed our club within 18 months, had us playing beautiful football and we made it look easy from the first day of the season to the last. We'd have failed to comply with FFP? Wasn't QPR's punishment for that promotion? FFP is flawed. If we're making big bids for players, which the board sanctioned, we should be prepared to pay the wages expected. Otherwise, we get made to look amateur, as was what happened.

I can't say for sure whether the cancelled done deals rumour is true. However, we have a history of messing managers around in the transfer market and if asked whether to put my faith in SC or the board with that history, it's SC every time. You can't compare the summer to an average summer window where a club misses out on targets. Something was clearly amiss and we were left with a pitiful squad lacking depth. You can't genuinely think SC wanted a squad of that size and strength, surely? Going completely against his comments from before the summer. The upbeat club and manager quickly turned sour and SC was the fall guy.

Fredericks is a good Championship player that left for personal reasons. What position have we often found ourselves lacking in this season?

We have a history of rumours of outside interference from the board. And guess what, so does nearly every other club. 

When things go wrong, "the suits" get it wherever you are and whether it is really their fault or not. Who likes a suit after all.

You stated earlier that the formation played rigidly by Cotterill wasn't the problem, but recruitment was. In which case, how did Pembo and Johnson pull free of the drop zone with the same group of players? 

Cotterill was in my opinion very blasé about that summer's recruitment.  There needed to be considerable strengthening and not just in the strike force.  I think he had underestimated how tough the Championship would be, having had such success in lower leagues. 

This season's failings gave been debated extensively,  but are not relevant to Cotterill's failure.

 

[Red-Robbo]

7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

O'Driscoll one of the few who might outdo him, but at least he understands the game and didn't bullshit to make himself look something he wasn't 

SOD was the grand master of self-agrandisising bollox!

And he understood football so well that he couldn't get a team full of Championship players out of the L1 bottom three.

Tbh all football interviews talk clichéd rubbish. It is a relatively simple game and listening to some bloke  pontificating after a match isn't ever going to throw much light on what went wrong or what went right.

They are only worth listening to when someone says something utterly mad, like challenging the reporters to a fight or insulting their rival boss's manhood.

[JHAGa]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

We have a history of rumours of outside interference from the board. And guess what, so does nearly every other club. 

When things go wrong, "the suits" get it wherever you are and whether it is really their fault or not. Who likes a suit after all.

You stated earlier that the formation played rigidly by Cotterill wasn't the problem, but recruitment was. In which case, how did Pembo and Johnson pull free of the drop zone with the same group of players? 

Cotterill was in my opinion very blasé about that summer's recruitment.  There needed to be considerable strengthening and not just in the strike force.  I think he had underestimated how tough the Championship would be, having had such success in lower leagues. 

This season's failings gave been debated extensively,  but are not relevant to Cotterill's failure.

 

 

I think Tomlin was pretty key to us staying up last season. Golbourne/Odemwingie coming in also. I think LJ did a good job last year, picking up the team and ending the season well. But we should never have been in that position in the first place, that previous summer, I don't think there was ever a more perfect opportunity to push on as a club. We'd picked up a lot of praise in the media for our style of football and the way in which we took League One by storm. I'm not saying we could have exactly replicated Bournemouth, Southampton or Norwich's rise, but it also wasn't beyond the realms of possibility either. Momentum is massive in football.

 

I think our L1 winning team and system just needed fine-tuning, a few quality additions, which is what SC looked to do. Add in Gray and Maguire on top of Kodjia and we'd have done very well, in my opinion. Instead, he was left with a worse squad than that which he had in a lower division the previous season. Again, ultimately there's no conclusive proof or evidence at who was at fault. But like I said, if asked who I trusted more through judging past events, I pick SC over the board every time. The board isn't some evil group that are deliberately out to sabotage the club but there's a consistent history of mismanagement.

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

SOD was the grand master of self-agrandisising bollox!

And he understood football so well that he couldn't get a team full of Championship players out of the L1 bottom three.

Tbh all football interviews talk clichéd rubbish. It is a relatively simple game and listening to some bloke  pontificating after a match isn't ever going to throw much light on what went wrong or what went right.

They are only worth listening to when someone says something utterly mad, like challenging the reporters to a fight or insulting their rival boss's manhood.

I said he understood football , not that he was a good manager !!!

Two different things

 

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, JHAGa said:

 

I think Tomlin was pretty key to us staying up last season. Golbourne/Odemwingie coming in also. I think LJ did a good job last year, picking up the team and ending the season well. But we should never have been in that position in the first place, that previous summer, I don't think there was ever a more perfect opportunity to push on as a club. We'd picked up a lot of praise in the media for our style of football and the way in which we took League One by storm. I'm not saying we could have exactly replicated Bournemouth, Southampton or Norwich's rise, but it also wasn't beyond the realms of possibility either. Momentum is massive in football.

 

I think our L1 winning team and system just needed fine-tuning, a few quality additions, which is what SC looked to do. Add in Gray and Maguire on top of Kodjia and we'd have done very well, in my opinion. Instead, he was left with a worse squad than that which he had in a lower division the previous season. Again, ultimately there's no conclusive proof or evidence at who was at fault. But like I said, if asked who I trusted more through judging past events, I pick SC over the board every time. The board isn't some evil group that are deliberately out to sabotage the club but there's a consistent history of mismanagement.

We aren't going to agree here.  I was tearing my hair out with Cotts repeating the same mistakes match after match at the start of last season.  At least Johnson offers us a new set of mistakes to despair at on a regular basis! 

But despairing at Johnson doesn't mean I'll look at past managers with the rosy glow of nostalgia.  As well as Cotterill,  I notice SOD and even Derek Mc-bloody-Innes are undergoing re-evaluation by various posters on Otib.

Because Lansdown has made a mistake in not sacking Johnson, doesn't mean he made a mistake in sacking previous flops.