New LJ poll

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

1 hour ago, Fishponds_Red said:

I don't

Nor do I, looks like Nick has his tinfoil hat on again regarding Cotterill... sabotaged? Have a day off.

He was just basically poor at this level or if he is this superb manager that some seem to think he is then he acted like a tool to prove some ridiculous point while jeopardizing the clubs position in this division. Personally think it's the first option

15% win record with us at this level says it all, considering this hopeless manager we have now is more than double his win record... 

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, JHAGa said:

Quite funny how some people are making out that a 35% win rate isn't a decent record at Championship level. And it's actually 39% overall but we opt to discount cup games now because we need any excuse not to give LJ any credit, eh? It honestly astonishes me how some people can't let go of a very bad run of results even when it was months ago and we've since recovered. I'm not saying LJ needs full backing from everyone but to twist everything you possibly can into a negative is really quite sad.

 

To the people saying LJ spent money, welcome to the Champinship in this day and age. Wolves are a place above us and spent £15M on one player. We had a negative net spend and are currently in a similar position to last season. No real shock there, seems reasonable to me. Even top English clubs like Liverpool and Tottenham struggled to adapt after spending a lot of money when they lost Suarez and Bale respectively.

Wolves spent £13m on Costa, just for accuracy (source: BBC Sport website). And they are two places above us, with a game in hand. But a point worth making, nevertheless, if balanced out or put a bit more in context by noting that Burton Albion are on the same number of points as us. We are surviving - hopefully - just about, in a highly unequal and intensively competitive league. This last point - the standard and money (parachute payments etc) in this league - is why many think it too risky, if not foolhardy, to pluck a novice from a league below to "manage" us in this league, a level of football we have almost always struggled in and found hard going.

And that "negative net spend," if that is what it was, is largely thanks to the judgment, or luck, or both, of previous coaches/managers and their scouting staff, not to Lee. I'm thinking here particularly of Cotterill, and his signing of Kodjia. Wasn't this SL's vision of the new Bristol City encapsulated in one deal? Signed for under £3m, sold 13 months later for £11m (possibly up to £15m)? Cotts had his faults, for sure, but in all the talk of win ratios, let us remember he was "delivering" on that front for SL (along with "improving players," ie, Flint, Bryan, Korey, Pack, even Wilbs!) 

1 hour ago, JHAGa said:

I get criticism of the bad run we went on, everyone does, LJ does, SL does, it goes without saying. However, failure to acknowledge the good work he did before and after it just demonstrates how some people have agendas. A sole focus on negativity. Also notable how most of these people seem to have some misplaced thought process that we should be at the top end of the table. It is by no means impossible, but it's as if they think we're in League One and not one of the most competitive divisions in the world. Most teams are on a similar level and have the same expectations. Look at the clubs around us, Forest, Birmingham, Wolves, Blackburn. It is the aim to be challenging at the top end of the table (we would have done if we hadn't sold Kodjia late in August imo) but we have no given right to be there. Some people really need to tone in their expectations. Like I said, no problem in wanting us to be competing at the top end, that's the ambition, but the expectation from some is naive at best.

If "the good work he did before" includes Aug to Oct this season, I think we need to go back to the posts and threads of @Olé to remind ourselves that performances did not match results in the first few weeks of the season, and that the signs were there of what was to come. Lee Johnson has flopped this season, but survived (assuming we avoid a hammering in the last two games. 

As for "Most teams are on a similar level" I would point out that the clubs you list there are not on a "similar level." By which I mean, the stability of ownership we have here and knowledge and experience of our own club, this country's football and this league are not matched by those 4 (and others in the Championship). Those clubs have had off-field issues and problems that we have not had to deal with. Lee Johnson may not have had the budget of bigger clubs, but he hasn't had the problems and challenges of coaching Blackburn or Forest either. Or Birmingham, for goodness sake. Clubs like Blackburn and QPR have been signing our cheaper players, players we have not, and will not, miss. We have much going for us, and to be grateful for, and need to remember this.

And where is this "naive expectation" on here that we should be competing at the top? The hissy-fit and bed-wetting on here was because we set a new club record for consecutive league defeats and won 3 league games in 25 (?) Having spent however much and brought in umpteen players, the "expectation" was that we would be steady and safe with no real drama. Unless you can produce the posts and threads to show this not to be the case?

 

I would suggest there has been "twisting" and "agenda" from both camps when it comes to LJ and this season. Not least by LJ and SL themselves ("everything is working well, and Lee has been part of that" SL in January)! There is a kind of push-and-pull effect between the two, whereby people go over the top, too far, in criticising the club, which results in overly determined defence of the club/coach/record by the other side (such as SL's absurd comment above).

 

[JHAGa]

 

Quote

And that "negative net spend," if that is what it was, is largely thanks to the judgment, or luck, or both, of previous coaches/managers and their scouting staff, not to Lee. I'm thinking here particularly of Cotterill, and his signing of Kodjia. Wasn't this SL's vision of the new Bristol City encapsulated in one deal? Signed for under £3m, sold 13 months later for £11m (possibly up to £15m)? Cotts had his faults, for sure, but in all the talk of win ratios, let us remember he was "delivering" on that front for SL (along with "improving players," ie, Flint, Bryan, Korey, Pack, even Wilbs!) - Sure, you won't find me discrediting Cotterill, I'm a big fan of SC and was disappointed at his sacking. I'm simply pointing out the fact that it's twisting facts to suit an agenda by going on about how much we've spent when in actual fact, we've received more than what we've spent. Hardly a war chest LJ was given. If we hadn't sold Kodjia, I'd agree that LJ had been backed very well, but I believe that would have reflected in where we would have ended up if he remained.

If "the good work he did before" includes Aug to Oct this season, I think we need to go back to the posts and threads of @Olé to remind ourselves that performances did not match results in the first few weeks of the season, and that the signs were there of what was to come. Lee Johnson has flopped this season, but survived (assuming we avoid a hammering in the last two games. The good work includes the whole period of February to October. Performances may not have been pretty but again, the Championship is a very competitive league and even the teams at the top rarely cruise to wins on a regular basis. Aside from the top two and Fulham, look at the GD for the sides up there. Unfair to discount those results if everyone is going to lambast him for the losing run where you can equally say results didn't match performances, as we found ourselves on the other side of being narrowly edged out of games. I wouldn't claim the season has been a success but nor do I see it as a complete disaster. We had one disastrous run for a few months, but the start and end months have been good. I'm just acknowledging the times when LJ has done well instead of focusing on entirely negatives and acting like the only period during his duration in charge was the bad run.

As for "Most teams are on a similar level" I would point out that the clubs you list there are not on a "similar level." By which I mean, the stability of ownership we have here and knowledge and experience of our own club, this country's football and this league are not matched by those 4 (and others in the Championship). Those clubs have had off-field issues and problems that we have not had to deal with. Lee Johnson may not have had the budget of bigger clubs, but he hasn't had the problems and challenges of coaching Blackburn or Forest either. Or Birmingham, for goodness sake. Clubs like Blackburn and QPR have been signing our cheaper players, players we have not, and will not, miss. We have much going for us, and to be grateful for, and need to remember this. - SL is an asset of course, but he's evidently of similar thinking to myself and is prepared to look at the bigger picture in terms of this season and LJ. Are the other clubs really that badly managed? None are in financial trouble although we know Venky's aren't the best owners in the world, is Fernandes at QPR that bad? Birmingham owners weren't getting criticised until they sacked Rowett, before that point they had done well in appointing him. They made a mistake in sacking a manager. You mention the stability of ownership and knowledge of our own club. Do you not think SL having the manager that he wants, that knows the club very well himself, and has now had a full year's experience managing in the Championship and with this squad could prove a benefit to us in the future, particularly after the way we're ending this season? Stability could prove to be an advantage and I'm sure they will all be more experienced and stronger after having come through such testing times.

And where is this "naive expectation" on here that we should be competing at the top? The hissy-fit and bed-wetting on here was because we set a new club record for consecutive league defeats and won 3 league games in 25 (?) Having spent however much and brought in umpteen players, the "expectation" was that we would be steady and safe with no real drama. Unless you can produce the posts and threads to show this not to be the case? - People have every right to criticise the poor run, SL has acknowledged it, LJ has acknowledged it, it goes without saying, but we've since recovered very well from it. Many posters have stated that we should have done much better this season and some have said we should have challenged for the PO's, in this thread and many others. Big difference between could and should - we have no right to be in such a position in this competitive league. Does our squad scream out top 10/6 to you? I don't think we have a bad squad, lots of promising players, but we aren't some amazing squad of players that should be in that higher position, like Villa. Maybe if we had Kodjia?  At the end of the day, like I said, we have a negative net spend and find ourselves in a position similar to that of last year - hardly the biggest disaster in the world that some make it out to be.

 

I would suggest there has been "twisting" and "agenda" from both camps when it comes to LJ and this season. Not least by LJ and SL themselves ("everything is working well, and Lee has been part of that" SL in January)! There is a kind of push-and-pull effect between the two, whereby people go over the top, too far, in criticising the club, which results in overly determined defence of the club/coach/record by the other side (such as SL's absurd comment above). - I get what you're saying from when SL said things like that, but at the end of the day, his job is to try and calm the fanbase and ease pressure on the players and management. He's hardly going to come out and say things are looking doomed halfway through the season, at a time when we were probably at our lowest point. I felt the interview he did a few weeks ago, at a very high pressure time, was very good and explained his decision making this season. Fortunately, since then his gamble in remaining loyal to LJ has been repaid for this season. Hopefully we can push on in the summer now. We've done great the last few months in recovering from such a low point.

 

 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

Just now, cynic said:

I think the whole issue of win ratios is subjective and can be twisted to suit any argument. 

Suffice to say that I think LJ did ok in the first third of the season (24 points in 15 games) and also the last third (19 points in 14 games).

The middle third is what some people cannot let go, yes it was diabolical results wise with 8 defeats on the trot and just 2 wins in that 15 games but its gone, done, and recovered. I prefer to concentrate on the positive first and last third of the season.

As for people banging on about how next season we'll be relegated etc - well, I wish I had crystal balls as well. Its just opinion based on that middle third of the season and nothing more than that. I expect what I expected this season but didn't happen - consolidation with no relegation involvement, hopefully steady improvement with the younger players coming through.

He also did pretty well when taking over last season... He has enough scope about him to do good job and learns from his mistakes he's made which seems evident from the recent run of form.

Posters saying that he hasn't beaten a top half club recently... who cares! You can only beat the opposition in front of you regardless of league position

[Jack Dawe]

36 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

 

I think stability - between owner and head coach - is our best hope, it might just give us an edge over some - enough - of our competitors, ie, the ones with bottom half budgets. It is clearly a move to do things differently, because hiring and firing has not worked, long-term; and designed with a long-term outlook, to produce "results" in a few years time (ie, serious challenge for promotion/achieve promotion; plus, turn O'Dowda, Brownhill, Moore for ex, into top players and large profit). But!

We cannot afford the short-term, the here-and-now, to be anything like this season. LJ needs to demonstrate, through performance and results on the pitch, competence in recruitment and coaching/leadership. That he can cope with this level of football. Starting from August. 

No more excuses, no more "flannel," no more "talk;" only results. By which I mean, being in the middle 8/third  - 9th to 16th - anywhere in that group. We have enough to avoid relegation scares, given competent management.

 

Oh, and I have pointed out to you before: it was LJ, and MA, that chose to sell Kodjia. Not SL imposing this on LJ. And it was LJ that said in August: "We are always prepared for anything. If you are not, then you are not doing your job properly. There always has to be a recruitment strategy in place." If they were not prepared for an overseas player having scored 20 goals attracting serious bids, at a time that suited the buyer not the seller, leaving them little time to bring in a replacement, they "were not doing their job properly." It's hardly an unheard of scenario within football.

No more excuses, no more flannel, no more talk; only results!

[BobBobSuperBob]

21 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

I think stability - between owner and head coach - is our best hope, it might just give us an edge over some - enough - of our competitors, ie, the ones with bottom half budgets. It is clearly a move to do things differently, because hiring and firing has not worked, long-term; and designed with a long-term outlook, to produce "results" in a few years time (ie, serious challenge for promotion/achieve promotion; plus, turn O'Dowda, Brownhill, Moore for ex, into top players and large profit). But!

We cannot afford the short-term, the here-and-now, to be anything like this season. LJ needs to demonstrate, through performance and results on the pitch, competence in recruitment and coaching/leadership. That he can cope with this level of football. Starting from August. 

No more excuses, no more "flannel," no more "talk;" only results. By which I mean, being in the middle 8/third  - 9th to 16th - anywhere in that group. We have enough to avoid relegation scares, given competent management.

 

Oh, and I have pointed out to you before: it was LJ, and MA, that chose to sell Kodjia. Not SL imposing this on LJ. And it was LJ that said in August: "We are always prepared for anything. If you are not, then you are not doing your job properly. There always has to be a recruitment strategy in place." If they were not prepared for an overseas player having scored 20 goals attracting serious bids, at a time that suited the buyer not the seller, leaving them little time to bring in a replacement, they "were not doing their job properly." It's hardly an unheard of scenario within football.

No more excuses, no more flannel, no more talk; only results!

You're a good sensible read today Jack and in full flow

Very sensible/ measured posts that talk a whole lot of sense

[the frampton balti]

we all have our doubts re little lee.

he needs a smaller but young squad then he will have greater influence. 

close knit an all that

they need to respect him and each other

he tells us post match that he asked them to press and close the gaps. that was not evident first half saturday and in so many other games this season.

i say we give him ten games starting saturday. show them the preston video again. lets not forget . this team should be playing for places in next years squad

[JHAGa]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

I think stability - between owner and head coach - is our best hope, it might just give us an edge over some - enough - of our competitors, ie, the ones with bottom half budgets. It is clearly a move to do things differently, because hiring and firing has not worked, long-term; and designed with a long-term outlook, to produce "results" in a few years time (ie, serious challenge for promotion/achieve promotion; plus, turn O'Dowda, Brownhill, Moore for ex, into top players and large profit). But!

We cannot afford the short-term, the here-and-now, to be anything like this season. LJ needs to demonstrate, through performance and results on the pitch, competence in recruitment and coaching/leadership. That he can cope with this level of football. Starting from August. 

No more excuses, no more "flannel," no more "talk;" only results. By which I mean, being in the middle 8/third  - 9th to 16th - anywhere in that group. We have enough to avoid relegation scares, given competent management.

 

Oh, and I have pointed out to you before: it was LJ, and MA, that chose to sell Kodjia. Not SL imposing this on LJ. And it was LJ that said in August: "We are always prepared for anything. If you are not, then you are not doing your job properly. There always has to be a recruitment strategy in place." If they were not prepared for an overseas player having scored 20 goals attracting serious bids, at a time that suited the buyer not the seller, leaving them little time to bring in a replacement, they "were not doing their job properly." It's hardly an unheard of scenario within football.

No more excuses, no more flannel, no more talk; only results!

 

I think LJ was wrong in stating that, or if he genuinely believed it, the club let him down. Panic bids of £6.5M on deadline day for Joe Mason imply they weren't prepared. It wasn't until we got Taylor and Djuric in as reinforcements in January that we had reinforcements in attack. Teams worked out that all they had to do was mark Abraham and we had little threat. Especially with Tomlin not performing for large periods of the season. I think those January signings saved us, Bailey Wright was an important one too.

 

We need to make sure we replace Abraham well this summer.

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You're a good sensible read today Jack and in full flow

Very sensible/ measured posts that talk a whole lot of sense

Cheers Bob. Your to kind.

I think most of us can agree, that next season it is no good club loyalists coming back on here saying/insisting/repeating: "it's the players," "we've had injuries," "the referee wrote to say 'I'm sorry'," "it's a tough league," "it's the assistant coach," "the crowd made the players shrink," "we recruited for the long-term," "we're doing better than Forest," "it's players' individual mistakes," "parachute payments," "we sold Flint," or that classic from 2016/17 "we're only losing by one goal"* should next season be anything like this season.

You can only make excuses for so long......

 

*have I missed any others?

 

 

 

[Tangle Foot]

On 23/04/2017 at 11:46, JonDolman said:

No one can seriously vote the 5th option.

Looks like 2 knobheads have! 

[Jack Dawe]

3 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

I think LJ was wrong in stating that, or if he genuinely believed it, the club let him down. Panic bids of £6.5M on deadline day for Joe Mason imply they weren't prepared. It wasn't until we got Taylor and Djuric in as reinforcements in January that we had reinforcements in attack. Teams worked out that all they had to do was mark Abraham and we had little threat. Especially with Tomlin not performing for large periods of the season. I think those January signings saved us, Bailey Wright was an important one too.

 

We need to make sure we replace Abraham well this summer.

It was SL that admitted this (decision to sell Kodjia), in a club interview with Adam Baker in early September. I think we can agree with LJ that the people responsible for preparing us for 9 months of Championship football did not do their job properly. But barring a monumental cock-up in the next two games, they get another go this summer.

Lee only has one other full season of 46 games with a full summer to recruit and pre-season to prepare under his "managing belt," before the one coming to a close now. And it has showed, in my opinion. 

[Strictly Obi]

24 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Cheers Bob. Your to kind.

I think most of us can agree, that next season it is no good club loyalists coming back on here saying/insisting/repeating: "it's the players," "we've had injuries," "the referee wrote to say 'I'm sorry'," "it's a tough league," "it's the assistant coach," "the crowd made the players shrink," "we recruited for the long-term," "we're doing better than Forest," "it's players' individual mistakes," "parachute payments," "we sold Flint," or that classic from 2016/17 "we're only losing by one goal"* should next season be anything like this season.

You can only make excuses for so long......

 

*have I missed any others?

 

 

 

When was the last time we had a successful Championship manager. Its OK for posters to keep saying 'sack em' get someone else in. Only for the next guy to be just as useless. So we sack him, and on to the next etc. Sorry for having a slightly different view than you Jack. But I've got to the stage where I support the more patient approach. In the hope that this might work, where your approach and those with similar views haven't. Nothing to do with excuses, we all know this seasons been abysmal. 

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

On 4/24/2017 at 15:50, Nogbad the Bad said:

Do you seriously believe if we keep LJ there is the slightest prospect that in the future a higher placed club - PL even - will attempt to prise him away?

From his previous record and what we've seen at AG that's absurd. His record losing runs both at Barnsley and City are millstones around his neck regarding future managerial progression and will remain a barrier to potential employers unless, and until, he achieves something palpable in the game. If he'd been sacked after the PNE game his stock would have been so low he may well have been unemployable at football League level. 

At best he'll be viewed as very inconsistent and highly unpredictable, a master of self promotion with illusions of coaching grandeur, and that's without taking into account any problems behind the scenes at AG this season that may have become common knowledge within the game.

The one predictable thing we know about about LJ is that any good form he presides over will inevitably be followed by a disastrous run, so the current comparatively outlandish spell of good form doesn't augur well for KO in August when no doubt he'll have yet more numerous new signings to bed in, or more likely, sideline for lengthy spells on an apparent whim.

Bristol City, at Championship level, will be the biggest, and highest placed, club LJ will ever manage imo. It remains incredible he ever got the job.

 

 

 

Totally agree with you, as you know my opinion on his appointment.  To me,  it would have been logical for him to be sacked at the end of the season, but we all know that isn't going to happen.  So I voted for option 3 and we will see what happens after 10 games, hopefully SL will take action if we continue to struggle, but I won't hold my breath.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, john from high littleton said:

When was the last time we had a successful Championship manager. Its OK for posters to keep saying 'sack em' get someone else in. Only for the next guy to be just as useless. So we sack him, and on to the next etc. Sorry for having a slightly different view than you Jack. But I've got to the stage where I support the more patient approach. In the hope that this might work, where your approach and those with similar views haven't. Nothing to do with excuses, we all know this seasons been abysmal. 

Jacks not saying that though is he - he's saying enough of excuses, let's get on with it and for LJ to prove he is up to it

Or as I understand him anyway

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

It was SL that admitted this (decision to sell Kodjia), in a club interview with Adam Baker in early September. I think we can agree with LJ that the people responsible for preparing us for 9 months of Championship football did not do their job properly. But barring a monumental cock-up in the next two games, they get another go this summer.

Lee only has one other full season of 46 games with a full summer to recruit and pre-season to prepare under his "managing belt," before the one coming to a close now. And it has showed, in my opinion. 

You're absolutely correct btw Jack - Both LJ and SL the decision whether to sell JK or not was left to LJ & MA

 there is a certain poster on here won't accept that because it doesn't suit his argument and claims both SL and LJ were lying when they said this 

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, john from high littleton said:

When was the last time we had a successful Championship manager. Its OK for posters to keep saying 'sack em' get someone else in. Only for the next guy to be just as useless. So we sack him, and on to the next etc. Sorry for having a slightly different view than you Jack. But I've got to the stage where I support the more patient approach. In the hope that this might work, where your approach and those with similar views haven't. Nothing to do with excuses, we all know this seasons been abysmal. 

No need to apologise for your opinion, John, none at all. We all want the same thing, ultimately. I, too, support "patience," in theory, only I would have looked a bit further and a bit wider and a bit more thoroughly for my head coach than I believe we did last time. It's a big - football - world out there.

[Unan]

I'd technically pick the 5th, just so a new manager has a bit more time. I presumed nobody else would so I went for 4 to try and give a more accurate answer.

[Strictly Obi]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Jacks not saying that though is he - he's saying enough of excuses, let's get on with it and for LJ to prove he is up to it

Or as I understand him anyway

Well he seems to be implying that so called  loyalists have been naively backing a failing manager. Whilst making up excuses for these failures. My Point is, some of us are so fed up with the revolving doors situation of one manager in another out. That we are prepared to put up with these failures, in the hope that perhaps sticking with one guy. Might even bring success where the sack him and see approach has failed us over countless decades. It's not I'm a loyalist, or oblivious to this seasons failings. It's just I'm prepared to be a bit more patient than perhaps others. Not making excuses though! 

[Jack Dawe]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You're absolutely correct btw Jack - Both LJ and SL the decision whether to sell JK or not was left to LJ & MA

 there is a certain poster on here won't accept that because it doesn't suit his argument and claims both SL and LJ were lying when they said this 

It's nigh on impossible for us to know, for certain, when they are being transparent, and when they are pulling the wool over our eyes. But as a rule of thumb, I tend to think, when the sun is shining, and the cows are up there grazing, and things are going well, then they feel able to tell us what's going on - as it was in September and, for ex, all the puff about visiting Tammy's family and impressing Chelsea - but when things are going tits up, there's not a chance they will be straight and honest.

In early September, I think SL was relaxed and confident enough to be fairly honest. But who knows?

[pillred]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 19:33, cynic said:

Exactly and Rowett has a meagre 25% win ratio in the championship - far less than LJs 49%.

blimey LJs win rate is going up with every new posting, at this rate we will go unbeaten next season!!