Sorting out our defence: number one job for next season?

[Jack Dawe]

Last season: conceded 71.

This season: conceded 65. With 180 minutes still to hold out.

 

So, there might be an improvement there, but not much of a one (assuming two clean sheets aint happening). Not enough to make us a steady, midtable side. I think we are the 4th leakiest in the Championship. Last season, we were 4th joint leakiest. LJ has failed to address this adequately. Bringing in a crocked Swede didn't work; nor did a cute Icelander. Rugged Aussie? Hmmm.....

If Flinty were to be sold (the rumours, inevitably, of this surface again), would this be the end-of-the-world, or a chance to build a new and better defence? I would hate to lose "Flinty" the guy, the spirit, the goals he scores, the rabonas and bicycle kicks, the dominant in the air totem, the character from 2014/15, the heartbeat of Bristol City post our last relegation, the connection we have with him, but might we improve our defence without him? (I don't know the answer to this - maybe it is the fullbacks, the defensive midfield, the system, maybe it was John Pemberton?? Not Aden, himself. Who knows?) A quicker defence, maybe; or better-on-the-ball one (to suit LJ's passing style)?

In January, SL told GT on RB that we had to sort out "seeing games out." LJ has shown he can get a side passing the ball and scoring a fair few goals, but can he improve our defensive record? We have conceded 24 in 16 games since the end of January. Yes, we have "seen games out" recently, but we have kept just 4 league clean sheets in 2017: v Rotherham, Burton, Wigan and Huddersfield. That's the bottom two for goals scored in the Championship, plus Burton (joint 4th lowest scoring) and Huddersfield both are bottom half for goals scored.

To put it plainly: against sides that can shoot, we concede goals.

Is this the priority, or is it replacing Tammy's goals?

 

[BRISTOL86]

Creating and scoring hasn't been a problem but we've defended like shit for two seasons now. Much improvement needed. 

[Jack Dawe]

2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Creating and scoring hasn't been a problem but we've defended like shit for two seasons now. Much improvement needed. 

This much, we know.

But is it systemic, organisation? Or the individuals themselves, in other words, even Warnock or Allerdyce couldn't get these - Little, Flint, Wright, Bryan, etc - individuals to keep clean sheets?

Does LJ need to go shopping again?

[Major Isewater]

I believe our defensive problems have occurred due to the constant changing of the formation and full/wing backs.

Defence also starts from the attack and with players not knowing where they should be or who or what they should be marking , the opposition often just skipped past us before notching .

Hopefully those days are over as the players are more used to one another and the formations that LJ favours.

Another area where we have to improve is tackling and agressivity, Bailey Wright and Korey are the only two who regularly get ' stuck in ' , hassling and unsettling the opponents.

 You could add Wilbs to the list but he is no longer a starter . 

[simon uk]

Its clear to me that our number 1 priority next season is finding a replacement for abraham. I dont really trust the present recruitment team to spend the money required on the right player, and the last thing we need is millions more spent on players out on loan or on the bench.

[Garland-sweden]

8 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Last season: conceded 71.

This season: conceded 65. With 180 minutes still to hold out.

 

So, there might be an improvement there, but not much of a one (assuming two clean sheets aint happening). Not enough to make us a steady, midtable side. I think we are the 4th leakiest in the Championship. Last season, we were 4th joint leakiest. LJ has failed to address this adequately. Bringing in a crocked Swede didn't work; nor did a cute Icelander. Rugged Aussie? Hmmm.....

If Flinty were to be sold (the rumours, inevitably, of this surface again), would this be the end-of-the-world, or a chance to build a new and better defence? I would hate to lose "Flinty" the guy, the spirit, the goals he scores, the rabonas and bicycle kicks, the dominant in the air totem, the character from 2014/15, the heartbeat of Bristol City post our last relegation, the connection we have with him, but might we improve our defence without him? (I don't know the answer to this - maybe it is the fullbacks, the defensive midfield, the system, maybe it was John Pemberton?? Not Aden, himself. Who knows?) A quicker defence, maybe; or better-on-the-ball one (to suit LJ's passing style)?

In January, SL told GT on RB that we had to sort out "seeing games out." LJ has shown he can get a side passing the ball and scoring a fair few goals, but can he improve our defensive record? We have conceded 24 in 16 games since the end of January. Yes, we have "seen games out" recently, but we have kept just 4 league clean sheets in 2017: v Rotherham, Burton, Wigan and Huddersfield. That's the bottom two for goals scored in the Championship, plus Burton (joint 4th lowest scoring) and Huddersfield both are bottom half for goals scored.

To put it plainly: against sides that can shoot, we concede goals.

Is this the priority, or is it replacing Tammy's goals?

 

Yes, defence prio 1. Score we can. Build the team with defence first. Last ten games we have conceded 13 goals 5 vs Preston. Last five we only conceded five goals Little and Bryan are good offensive, they have to improve def. Flint and Wright is hard and good in the air, but they are not the fastest. Small quick fw and we have problems. Our defending have been better with the wins, confidence. Interesting to see how our back four will be next season. Smith and Pack are very good in midfield. If we can tight defence then points coming in and we van be a good team in this leauge.

[Garland-sweden]

17 minutes ago, simon uk said:

Its clear to me that our number 1 priority next season is finding a replacement for abraham. I dont really trust the present recruitment team to spend the money required on the right player, and the last thing we need is millions more spent on players out on loan or on the bench.

Taylor, Djuric, the young striker Mclousky, dont remember his name and Engvall. Got a bad feeling with Engvall, hope I wrong. Dont know If those are enough. Hope our mf can score more next season. Paterson has shown the way. Odowda? Think he will be good.

[The Coach]

I don't think the defence is the issue. Our midfield is, has been for the last two seasons. Our midfield simply isn't good enough, and doesn't given enough support to our defence or our attackers. Basically our midfield is an entire range of Cole Skuses's. 

The amount of times opposition players have run through the middle with such ease this season has left me gob smacked at times. Nor do we press opposition players or make runs from the midfield to take players on. So for me, the number one priority is getting in a new midfield. I'd take a look at Ryan Woods at Brentford for a start. If he plays like that most games the way he played against us Home and Away, then what a cracking CDM.

[BRISTOL86]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

This much, we know.

But is it systemic, organisation? Or the individuals themselves, in other words, even Warnock or Allerdyce couldn't get these - Little, Flint, Wright, Bryan, etc - individuals to keep clean sheets?

Does LJ need to go shopping again?

Short answer - yes. Two new quality full backs should be a priority. 

[Dullmoan Tone]

42 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

I don't think the defence is the issue. Our midfield is, has been for the last two seasons. Our midfield simply isn't good enough, and doesn't given enough support to our defence or our attackers. Basically our midfield is an entire range of Cole Skuses's. 

The amount of times opposition players have run through the middle with such ease this season has left me gob smacked at times. Nor do we press opposition players or make runs from the midfield to take players on. So for me, the number one priority is getting in a new midfield. I'd take a look at Ryan Woods at Brentford for a start. If he plays like that most games the way he played against us Home and Away, then what a cracking CDM.

I agree with this - you can see the difference a fit Korey Smith makes to the defence. Losing Flinty would be upsetting for fans but not the end of the world as he's been part of too many leaky Championship games to point the finger at the full backs - it's his goals we would miss more imo.

[ZiderEyed]

48 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

I don't think the defence is the issue. Our midfield is, has been for the last two seasons. Our midfield simply isn't good enough, and doesn't given enough support to our defence or our attackers. Basically our midfield is an entire range of Cole Skuses's. 

The amount of times opposition players have run through the middle with such ease this season has left me gob smacked at times. Nor do we press opposition players or make runs from the midfield to take players on. So for me, the number one priority is getting in a new midfield. I'd take a look at Ryan Woods at Brentford for a start. If he plays like that most games the way he played against us Home and Away, then what a cracking CDM.

Woods is a top player, saw him at Shrewsbury when he was linked to Spurs, I'd love to see him here but don't know if its a realistic proposition on the wages front.

[LondonBristolian]

I think our options at centre-back are fine. I'd rather Flint stayed but, even if he left, I'd have no problem with a Wright-Magnusson pairing and hopefully Taylor Moore could push on too next season. We'd need one more squad centre-back without Flint but I don't think it's a major problem position.

 

I think our full-backs are the key area we need to improve. By all accounts, Little has done well of late but I'd still have some concerns over his fitness and energy levels playing week in, week out all season. Moreover I think he and Golbourne are decent squad full-backs and I prefer Bryan in midfield to defence.  think spending on quality at right-back, left-back and in goal would make a huge difference.

Midfield I'm a bit torn on. Hegeler looked immense when he first came in and it might be that, with a full pre-season in England behind him, he can be genuine quality next season. I also really rate Brownhill and think he is only going to get better. Smith and Pack seem to enjoy our current formation too. Obviously there is no position in the team where I would not take an upgrade given the chance but to me the priority positions for the summer have to be Goalkeeper, two full backs and a striker. I think midfield and the wings are areas where new signings might be nice if there was anything in the budget but I'd not see them as priorities.

[The Coach]

19 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

I agree with this - you can see the difference a fit Korey Smith makes to the defence. Losing Flinty would be upsetting for fans but not the end of the world as he's been part of too many leaky Championship games to point the finger at the full backs - it's his goals we would miss more imo.

I like Smith but you have to question his fitness from now on, being injury prone isn't a luxury we can afford in this division.

 

I'd like to see something like this personally:

 

 

                                              New ST

 Bryan/New LM/LW        Paterson/Tomlin           O'Dowda/New RM/RW

                        New CM/Woods       New CM/Bannan 

                     New LB    Magnusson    Flint     New RB

                                             New GK

Of course Bannan & Woods are just examples, and I can't see us signing any of them. Allowing Woods to sit back and break up play, while allowing a Bannan type player to make forward runs. Just personally what I would like to see. But we will not.

I've also given an option of Bryan and O'Dowda out wide, or two completely new wide players. As I'm not sure O'Dowda is yet ready for the NPC, and Joe has been disappointing in this division so far. I've missed out the likes of Pack, Reid etc as I don't think they are Championship quality to help us progress. 

[GrahamC]

I think the answer to the OP is probably, yes.

We firstly have to accept that on the balance of probabilities we won't have a twenty goal striker three season's running, so in order to get at least as many points as this time around, we do need to concede less.

I would expect us to add a goalkeeper this summer (with the German going home) and presuming if Little moves on add a RB too, but otherwise unless Flint goes that is likely to be that for defensive recruits, though with the likes of Magnusson, Golbourne, Moore and Vyner available to back up to our first choice defence then I don't see an issue.

Our problem in midfield is that we already have so many under contract, in addition to the four starting at present we also have O'Neil, Hegeler, Reid, O'Dowda and of course Tomlin.

Should we want to make any changes there one of the first two will have to go, it is arguable that one of them should do so anyway, as neither of them is presently a first choice.

Up front the loss of Tammy (plus presumably Wilbs) leaves us with 3 players, none of whom have hardly any Championship experience, but two of whom were million plus signings and full internationals so unless we decide to cut our losses with Engvall they should all start to contribute, but I genuinely don't think we will be signing more than 5 players or spending big sums this summer.

I do remember being ridiculed for saying we wouldn't have a net spend of more than £5m last summer and after the Bolasie windfall (and Kodjia deal) we ended up not having any net spend at all and I fully expect us to spend no more than that (net) again.

[EnclosureSurge]

I think the answer from otib is yes. And no. And maybe. 

If lee Johnson, Mark Ashton or anyone at the Gate has the schizophrenic outlook of this forum (or, inevitably, of a selection of people with individual views), then God help us. Of course they'll say all of the above are priorities. But better coaching is the priority for me.

These teams concede less than a goal a game or about 44 from 44 (generally, a good starting point for not losing too many): the top 2, Leeds, Wed, Villa, Derby. Do those teams have the best individual defenders? The priciest? The most experienced? Not really, I'd struggle to mention the back 4 of all those teams (Ayling is one of them, ffs).

A lot of it must be down to better coaching. We have decent defenders. If they can be coached properly and played regularly, with regular selection around them, that, for me, would be a sound basis for not needing to fixate on replacing Tammy with either a £15m striker (ie Kodge's money) or another 20 goal getter.

Concede about 50-55 in 46 games and we wouldn't need a 20 goal striker. A N Other striker getting 12-15, a few (wide players/c-halves?) getting 6s and 7s and everybody else chipping in would mean scoring 50+ and a GD of close to zero and, most likely, mid-table nothingness. That far-off, dreamy land of mid-table nothingness.

Not got a lot of confidence in the coaching improving though. Not sure I've seen anyone get better since Johnson has been here (Paterson recently yes, but not enough of a run of great games to qualify. Maybe Tammy has, or is that just all natural ability?).

Just hope the Suits know what we're looking for and have got the wheels in motion. Don't get caught with a last minute sale (Kodge) again.

[wendyredredrobin]

There may not be as much wrong with the defence as you think, though its not well organised and marking is terrible.

A lot of goals have been conceded by giving the ball away in midfield, not having a Gerry Gow like midfielder or dodgy back passing.

Full backs look a bit weak, but perhaps that is due to being over exposed.

Flinty is great in the air, but not on the ground and ia probably not quick enough (though I like him and his attitude). If Villa are prepared to pay decent money for him, Maggers can replace him (though not perhaps his goals from corners and free kicks).

[Judda]

Remember we've missed Korey Smith in centre mid most of the season  (Or he has been playing with a knock).... If he stays fit for the whole season it'll help a lot however can we rely on this happening?

[The Coach]

28 minutes ago, Judda said:

Remember we've missed Korey Smith in centre mid most of the season  (Or he has been playing with a knock).... If he stays fit for the whole season it'll help a lot however can we rely on this happening?

No we cannot, you cannot also put all your hope in one player. We definitely need a midfield pairing. As @wendyredredrobin has said, a Gerry Gow type is required. Someone who can break up opposition play and can stay back while on the attack.

[Lanterne Rouge]

I believe Taylor Moore will have a big part to play next season. Half a season battling relegation in league 1 will have given him a load of valuable experience.

[dereks no1]

Couple of things I don't think have been mentioned so far. A defence needs time to gel and our back 4 (sometimes 3) has been constantly changed around. In the last 5/6 we've looked more solid as the defence can actually know each other's strengths and weaknesses. Secondly, young players like Moore, Vyner Magnusson could improve drastically having had their first real taste of English football.

[Cider red]

Titus browning from Everton is a rb id like us to try and sign

[BobBobSuperBob]

21 minutes ago, dereks no1 said:

Couple of things I don't think have been mentioned so far. A defence needs time to gel and our back 4 (sometimes 3) has been constantly changed around. In the last 5/6 we've looked more solid as the defence can actually know each other's strengths and weaknesses. Secondly, young players like Moore, Vyner Magnusson could improve drastically having had their first real taste of English football.

Good point derek

Constantly changing keeper adds to the confusion

The back four / five should be the last thing to fiddle with if at all possible