A tale of two managers - LJ bouncing & Cotts respect

[RobintheRed Red]

13 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

A few were asking, I'd estimate an over excitable/over inebriated 1-2% of the fans present joined in.

It didn't catch on at all, even a few boos.

In contrast what a fantastic show of genuine respect and affection from thousands of City fans for Steve Cotterill after the game.

And the feeling was clearly mutual.

Thoroughly well deserved ovation and prolonged chanting, and it seems a great number of Bristol City fans have been waiting for the chance to show their appreciation once again to SC for providing one of the most memorable seasons of their City supporting lives.

Despite the spiteful comments of a few on here Cotts. obviously remains very, very popular amongst City fans - the sort of popularity LJ can only dream about, and will likely never come close to matching.

Great to see you back at Ashton Gate today Cotts. Winner. 

A PROPER BLOKE  WELL SAID

[RobintheRed Red]

16 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Just observations from today...

One lapping up the well earned respect he deserved. Very fitting.

The other, quite frankly embarrassingly bouncing up and down on stage like he'd achieved something. 

Now, the Cotts & LJ thing has been done to death - and I'm sure it'll be done some more here, but I think today's actions pretty much sum up my feelings about both.

Heres to a summer of rest and hopefully an reignited passion for my football club. 

Give me cotts anyday  more of a players man not all about little Me

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

They supported him enough to allow him to make bids for two highly expensive players, one who wanted PL wages.

LJ has benefited from the fact that larger attendances have allowed him to run up a bigger wage bill (Cotts was constrained by having cash to spend determined on the tiny attendances we had when we were a club playing in a three-sided ground in L1).

LJ also had the Kodj millions. You can't blame him for accepting that very generous bid, nor for spending the windfall. Any manager who had inherited a very small squad of players would have done the same.

Some of Johnson's buys have been successes, some haven't. As with Cotts's purchases.

So, the board had little to do with the fact that Johnson had more money to spend. They weren't sat their thinking: "We don't like Steve Cotterill. We won't give him enough dosh to do his job. Let's watch the side we bankroll slip back down to League One just to spite him. It'll mean we have to staunch even more financial losses in future, but let's do it for the LOLZ!"

As I said on my first post on this thread. I like and respect Steve Cotterill. Would he have made City a success if he had the resources LJ has had? We can't know, but his record in the second tier is patchy to say the least.

Unlike some, I haven't forgotten August 2015-January 2016. Knocked out the league cup by Luton. Four goal thumpings by Burnley, Derby, Birmingham, Fulham, Brentford.

It was a dark and depressing time, and it only took a modicum of tinkering from John Pemberton to start to get the side winning again, while the "useless" Lee Johnson was able to fairly easily pull us out of relegation danger. and actually gave us two games where WE scored four for a change - and one game where we scored six!

Well said RR, unfortunately some can't see the wood for the trees and seemed to have conveniently forgot August to January or they've blanked it all together, don't blame them on that score as we were total garbage.

There are two sides to every story, Cotterill has his version and the board have theirs, my guess is that as the board backed him with transfer money and wages so I shall believe the board on this one and Cotterill clearly threw his toys out of the pram for whatever the reason and became increasingly difficult as the season wore on.

Seems some are trying to say the board scuppered Cotterill and they were the ones purposefully jeopardising the clubs position in the Championship... absolute tosh!

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

Cotts wanted to buy Andre Gray after he had scored 18 goals in a Championship season.

SL wants us to be able to spot and buy yer "Andre Grays" when they are scoring goals in the Conference, or L1 or L2. Because they won't cost as much and because we have more chance of getting them to come here (than when they are already scoring goals at this level).

It was a "philosophical" parting of the ways. Two different schools of thought.

So, SL brought in his acquaintance/chum, who, very grateful for the opportunity to coach at this level (in contrast to Cotterill, who earned his chance with promotions and tangible football success as much as any "networking" skills, or a combination of the two, at least; plus, knocking Burnley out of the cup while at Cheltenham) was only too happy to "buy into" what has come to be called SL's "project."

I think he has "bought into" a "big ask" for this club, at this level. And for a coach with relatively little experience. He will need time, as we have seen this season.

There is much to be said for harmony and all that "singing from the same hymn sheet" between head coach and owner, plenty of clubs come unstuck with cracks in this relationship; but at some point, LJ needs to unearth an "Andre Gray" and one that comes here on a 3 year contract, not a 12 month loan, too.

That's what this "project" needs to work. Funny that Cotterill turned an £8m (plus possible add ons, but also allowing for a % to go to Angry FC, France) profit on Kodjia in 13 months. Exactly what SL was after, I thought. LJ has some way to go to match that recruitment success story. At the moment, it isn't entirely clear whether he hasn't frittered rather too much of that profit away.

We shall see.

 

Are you saying that LJ had no hand in developing JK despite the fact that he scored more goals under him than SC? And in less games as well. I would say both had a major hand in that

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Well said RR, unfortunately some can't see the wood for the trees and seemed to have conveniently forgot August to January or they've blanked it all together, don't blame them on that score as we were total garbage.

There are two sides to every story, Cotterill has his version and the board have theirs, my guess is that as the board backed him with transfer money and wages so I shall believe the board on this one and Cotterill clearly threw his toys out of the pram for whatever the reason and became increasingly difficult as the season wore on.

Seems some are trying to say the board scuppered Cotterill and they were the ones purposefully jeopardising the clubs position in the Championship... absolute tosh!

You have to laugh when you see one poster in particular who thought Cotterill was rubbish and couldn't attract players here because of his "bad reputation in football" now saying the bloke walked on water and everything was the board's fault!!!!    

[Kid in the Riot]

11 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

You have to laugh when you see one poster in particular who thought Cotterill was rubbish and couldn't attract players here because of his "bad reputation in football" now saying the bloke walked on water and everything was the board's fault!!!!    

I'm not saying that at all - but nice try. Although it is true that in light of some things I've heard over the past few months I have reassessed my views on SC and also what happened in the summer of 2016.

I now believe he was wronged that summer due to some amateurish mistakes made by the City board. I believe SL did not like having to deal with SC due to his personality and that was where the problems started.

I also believe that if SC was in charge this season, with the war chest that LJ was given, then we would not have finished 3 points above the drop zone.

Of course SC made mistakes along the way but I believe the board made even bigger ones and that's the primary reason why we got into trouble.

[JamesBCFC]

14 hours ago, Septic Peg said:

This a thousand times...

 

Cotts got the boot when City lost form and went to shit. LJ was kept on when City lost form and went to shit.

What does LJ have that Cotts didn't? Friends in high places. LJ was given a blank cheque book and a shopping trolley. Cotts got sweet FA apart from Kodj. The board didn't support him...

This is all fact.

Under Cotterill we propped up the league for a big chunk, while under LJ we had 4 playing months of top 6 form from his 4 months before the bad patch.

Under Cotterill there was not even the slightest hint of things turning around, unlike this year.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

4 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'm not saying that at all - but nice try. Although it is true that in light of some things I've heard over the past few months I have reassessed my views on SC and also what happened in the summer of 2016.

I now believe he was wronged that summer due to some amateurish mistakes made by the City board. I believe SL did not like having to deal with SC due to his personality and that was where the problems started.

I also believe that if SC was in charge this season, with the war chest that LJ was given, then we would not have finished 3 points above the drop zone.

Of course SC made mistakes along the way but I believe the board made even bigger ones and that's the primary reason why we got into trouble.

Your post is based on hearsay and conjecture

[BRISTOL86]

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'm not saying that at all - but nice try. Although it is true that in light of some things I've heard over the past few months I have reassessed my views on SC and also what happened in the summer of 2016.

I now believe he was wronged that summer due to some amateurish mistakes made by the City board. I believe SL did not like having to deal with SC due to his personality and that was where the problems started.

I also believe that if SC was in charge this season, with the war chest that LJ was given, then we would not have finished 3 points above the drop zone.

Of course SC made mistakes along the way but I believe the board made even bigger ones and that's the primary reason why we got into trouble.

The primary reason, really? As opposed to Cotts' fixation with a completely flawed and failing system that saw us receive weekly thrashings? 

Was Cotts let down by the board? Possibly, I have no idea what went on. But they didn't pick the team or formation. As soon as we changed to a back four we looked like a mid table side which proves that Cotts had the tools he needed to successfully manage the group, yet he couldn't/wouldn't use them appropriately. 

[Up The City!]

6 hours ago, Thatch35 said:

Dear oh dear.....what a stupid clueless comment. I will give you just one thing...if only Cots was given the money LJ had.

Again, he was. He just went after players who didn't want to sign for us. His transfer policy and our transfer policy were at odds so in the end he wasn't the right fit for us.

[Jack Dawe]

12 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Are you saying that LJ had no hand in developing JK despite the fact that he scored more goals under him than SC? And in less games as well. I would say both had a major hand in that

I (think) I am saying that Cotts is no longer here because he didn't much fancy adhering to SL's plan, or "project." ie, buying young/low, selling a bit older/high. And probably told SL what he thought of his plan/project/pillars. Cotts wanted to do it his way, not SL's way, would be my guess. They took a different view of what was best as regards recruitment and putting together a good enough team/squad for the Championship. 

Understandably, SL wants to try and do things sustainably. If you can find the next Andre Gray, buy him from lower football for hundreds of thousands, watch him score goals two or three divisions higher in the Championship, then sell him a year later for millions - nine of them - and at the same time keep a team ticking over in the top half of this division, if you can pull this off: brilliant. Get on and do it. 

I think the key thing with Kodjia was getting him here in the first place. Taking the punt. Other clubs thought about it, Cotts/Burt took the plunge. Did LJ "develop" Kodj? Depends on how "universal" a language you think football is. I don't think LJ spoke anymore French than Cotts. I don't think either could teach him all that much. He is a bit of an off-the-cuff individual. Putting Tomlin in the team with him might've made a difference, though.

So, after some "blither" there, I think it's about recruitment: Cotts wanted to do what he thought was best, while LJ will happily go along with and follow SL's wishes on recruitment.

 

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

I'm not saying that at all - but nice try. Although it is true that in light of some things I've heard over the past few months I have reassessed my views on SC and also what happened in the summer of 2016.

I now believe he was wronged that summer due to some amateurish mistakes made by the City board. I believe SL did not like having to deal with SC due to his personality and that was where the problems started.

I also believe that if SC was in charge this season, with the war chest that LJ was given, then we would not have finished 3 points above the drop zone.

Of course SC made mistakes along the way but I believe the board made even bigger ones and that's the primary reason why we got into trouble.

You've reassessed your view on Cotts in the same way that Mrs May has reassessed her views on Brexit, Kid!  One hell of a U-turn 

No harm in that. We all make mistakes. 

There's no reason why Steve Lansdown would deliberately sabotage the club he owns because he found Cotterill a prickly character.  He backed him to L1 success. He will have wanted to continue that momentum in the next tier, not to have seen the club go down again requiring him having to shovel even more cash into it. 

Where the revisionist view is right is that LJ has had more to spend than Cotts. He's had the Kodjia bounty and can run a higher wage bill due to our increased attendances. That is not because Lansdown loves him more (even if he does) nor is it LJ's fault. If we'd had another manager this season he'd have had more money too.

If Cotterill had the same resources would his second season been a success?  Without the benefit of Mystic Meg we'll never know. He had the resources the club could spend at the time. Our goal difference was -23 when he was sacked, suggesting that the problem wasn't just the two "big fish" he tried to land.

[Nogbad the Bad]

14 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

You have to laugh when you see one poster in particular who thought Cotterill was rubbish and couldn't attract players here because of his "bad reputation in football" now saying the bloke walked on water and everything was the board's fault!!!!    

Yep, even some of SC's fiercest critics were converted.

Not surprising really.

Two trophies, fantastic entertaining and attacking football with loads of goals, the ultimate in squad harmony leading to total commitment to the manager and the club and bringing the most successful and enjoyable season in decades.

With total support from above that great era may well have continued. I'm convinced that would have been the case, but we'll never know for certain.

Cotterill's City team were a joy to watch and he, and his players, a real pleasure to support.

I'll certainly forgive those critics who finally saw the light and regret the aftermath of his sacking.

If they have seen the errors of their ways now there's little to be gained by me and others rubbing it in. 

After all, a sinner repented is a joy to behold - much like SC's Champions in fact. 

[JHAGa]

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

Yep, even some of SC's fiercest critics were converted.

Not surprising really.

Two trophies, fantastic entertaining and attacking football with loads of goals, the ultimate in squad harmony leading to total commitment to the manager and the club and bringing the most successful and enjoyable season in decades.

With total support from above that great era may well have continued. I'm convinced that would have been the case, but we'll never know for certain.

Cotterill's City team were a joy to watch and he, and his players, a real pleasure to support.

I'll certainly forgive those critics who finally saw the light and regret the aftermath of his sacking.

If they have seen the errors of their ways now there's little to be gained by me and others rubbing it in. 

After all, a sinner repented is a joy to behold - much like SC's Champions in fact. 

 

As someone that likes both SC and LJ, can you please explain to me why you're prepared to ignore 4 months of last season in which SC struggled but not 3 months of this season in which LJ struggled and that we actually recovered from? Please don't say it's the 'war chest' of a 0 net spend that LJ had, whilst SC spent £2M+ on one player, had bids of over £5M accepted for two players and didn't have the money from sales which LJ had - he even opted to let an under-contract Cunningham go for a free.

 

I love SC and wish things had turned out better. I was against his sacking and I wish he had got the signings he wanted that summer and we could have utilised the momentum from that amazing season. But LJ came in and rallied us from the difficult position SC had left us in when he left, whether you blame the board or him for the debacle of a summer transfer window, that's the cold hard truth.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Yep, even some of SC's fiercest critics were converted.

Not surprising really.

Two trophies, fantastic entertaining and attacking football with loads of goals, the ultimate in squad harmony leading to total commitment to the manager and the club and bringing the most successful and enjoyable season in decades.

With total support from above that great era may well have continued. I'm convinced that would have been the case, but we'll never know for certain.

Cotterill's City team were a joy to watch and he, and his players, a real pleasure to support.

I'll certainly forgive those critics who finally saw the light and regret the aftermath of his sacking.

If they have seen the errors of their ways now there's little to be gained by me and others rubbing it in. 

After all, a sinner repented is a joy to behold - much like SC's Champions in fact. 

Remind me of the football in the Championship under SC again.. and why did LJ pull us away from the relegation zone with pretty much the same core of the squad that very season? 

 

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

Yep, even some of SC's fiercest critics were converted.

Not surprising really.

Two trophies, fantastic entertaining and attacking football with loads of goals, the ultimate in squad harmony leading to total commitment to the manager and the club and bringing the most successful and enjoyable season in decades.

With total support from above that great era may well have continued. I'm convinced that would have been the case, but we'll never know for certain.

Cotterill's City team were a joy to watch and he, and his players, a real pleasure to support.

I'll certainly forgive those critics who finally saw the light and regret the aftermath of his sacking.

If they have seen the errors of their ways now there's little to be gained by me and others rubbing it in. 

After all, a sinner repented is a joy to behold - much like SC's Champions in fact. 

I'm afraid August 2015 to January 2016 weren't quite such of a joy to behold though, Noggers.

I remember trudging furiously back from AG after watching Fulham, the team supported by my former nemesis, effortlessly turn us over and Cotts once again left his substitutions far too late.

His brow was deeply furrowed throughout the game. "It worked in League One, why isn't it working now?!" he seemed to be thinking.

If I bump into him however, I'd shake his hand and wish him well.

I didn't intend to turn this thread into an anti-Cotts thing. 

I just found the OP hagiography of the man and demonisation of Johnson a bit silly.

[NickJ]

56 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Seems some are trying to say the board scuppered Cotterill and they were the ones purposefully jeopardising the clubs position in the Championship... absolute tosh!

Nobody is saying the board deliberately scuppered Cotterill.

 

22 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I now believe he was wronged that summer due to some amateurish mistakes made by the City board. I believe SL did not like having to deal with SC due to his personality and that was where the problems started.

 

That's exactly what many of us believe happened.

It's based on a very detailed description of events.

And in a way, if mistakes were made, that's fine, shit happens.

It's the way that Cotterill was made the scapegoat which rankles with many of us, instead of backing the man who had done so much for so many with such little, in such a short space of time. The man rescued us as we headed for League 2, gave us unprecedented success, and was rewarded with extremely shabby treatment.

The contrast with Johnson, a manager who had achieved diddly squat before he came here, and still hasn't, couldn't be greater.

[Spoons]

We all need to move on! 

[Kid in the Riot]

19 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

You've reassessed your view on Cotts in the same way that Mrs May has reassessed her views on Brexit, Kid!  One hell of a U-turn 

No harm in that. We all make mistakes. 

There's no reason why Steve Lansdown would deliberately sabotage the club he owns because he found Cotterill a prickly character.  He backed him to L1 success. He will have wanted to continue that momentum in the next tier, not to have seen the club go down again requiring him having to shovel even more cash into it. 

Where the revisionist view is right is that LJ has had more to spend than Cotts. He's had the Kodjia bounty and can run a higher wage bill due to our increased attendances. That is not because Lansdown loves him more (even if he does) nor is it LJ's fault. If we'd had another manager this season he'd have had more money too.

If Cotterill had the same resources would his second season been a success?  Without the benefit of Mystic Meg we'll never know. He had the resources the club could spend at the time. Our goal difference was -23 when he was sacked, suggesting that the problem wasn't just the two "big fish" he tried to land.

It's not "one hell of a U-turn". It's a change of viewpoint on the events of the summer of 2016 specifically, which in turn obviously had a large impact on what then happened that season. I still think SC has many flaws and I still don't find him likeable, if that makes you feel a bit better.

24 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

The primary reason, really? As opposed to Cotts' fixation with a completely flawed and failing system that saw us receive weekly thrashings? 

Was Cotts let down by the board? Possibly, I have no idea what went on. But they didn't pick the team or formation. As soon as we changed to a back four we looked like a mid table side which proves that Cotts had the tools he needed to successfully manage the group, yet he couldn't/wouldn't use them appropriately. 

Yes, the primary reason IMHO. The rest was a byproduct of that loss of trust.

[Kid in the Riot]

9 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Remind me of the football in the Championship under SC again.. and why did LJ pull us away from the relegation zone with pretty much the same core of the squad that very season?

Lee Tomlin.

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

It's not "one hell of a U-turn". It's a change of viewpoint on the events of the summer of 2016 specifically, which in turn obviously had a large impact on what then happened that season. I still think SC has many flaws and I still don't find him likeable, if that makes you feel a bit better.

Yes, the primary reason IMHO. The rest was a byproduct of that loss of trust.

He played 352 because he didn't trust the board? 

[Up The City!]

We would never have survived under SC due to his refusal to ditch the 3atb system. Tactically he was found out at this level.

He just isn't cut out to be a Championship manager.

[Kid in the Riot]

Just now, BRISTOL86 said:

He played 352 because he didn't trust the board? 

I'd imagine he played 352 because it won us 99 points in L1. Stubbornly persisted with it when he really shouldn't granted.

 

Just now, Up The City! said:

We would never have survived under SC due to his refusal to ditch the 3atb system. Tactically he was found out at this level.

He just isn't cut out to be a Championship manager.

I really hope he gets the Brum job full time and gets backed. I'd be very shocked if LJ's City finished ahead of his Brum team.

[lenred]

3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'd imagine he played 352 because it won us 99 points in L1. Stubbornly persisted with it when he really shouldn't granted.

 

I really hope he gets the Brum job full time and gets backed. I'd be very shocked if LJ's City finished ahead of his Brum team.

I hope that he gets the chance. Should be a pretty even playing field next season between the two BCFC's  and it will give the season an extra edge and interest.  Would be good. 

[BRISTOL86]

10 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'd imagine he played 352 because it won us 99 points in L1. Stubbornly persisted with it when he really shouldn't granted.

 

I really hope he gets the Brum job full time and gets backed. I'd be very shocked if LJ's City finished ahead of his Brum team.

Everyone else in the world but him quickly realised it's all well and good doing that when you have the best squad in the league but not when it's completely average. 

As I said in my prior post, the minutes we changed to a back 4 we looked like a mid table side. Not sure how Cotts inability to see what needed to be done can be blamed on anyone but him.

Didn't Pembo say he'd advocated it to Cotterill and was shot down? 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

30 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Nobody is saying the board deliberately scuppered Cotterill.

 

That's exactly what many of us believe happened.

It's based on a very detailed description of events.

And in a way, if mistakes were made, that's fine, shit happens.

It's the way that Cotterill was made the scapegoat which rankles with many of us, instead of backing the man who had done so much for so many with such little, in such a short space of time. The man rescued us as we headed for League 2, gave us unprecedented success, and was rewarded with extremely shabby treatment.

The contrast with Johnson, a manager who had achieved diddly squat before he came here, and still hasn't, couldn't be greater.

Well according to you and others, the board scuppered deals that undermined SC. So wouldn't that be putting the clubs position in the Championship at risk?

He was backed, he chose not to utilise the tools given.. he signed his own P45 in my view

 

[Sixtyseconds]

4 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

We would never have survived under SC due to his refusal to ditch the 3atb system. Tactically he was found out at this level.

He just isn't cut out to be a Championship manager.

We would never have survived under SC ... You sure? Has he form for relegating teams? Promoted one or two mind. On the CV it is.

His refusal to ditch the 3atb system ... Maybe. Maybe not. Seemed to want extra players. Doubt he would have been blowing just the one horn "we're Bristol City we play 3-5-2". Did he play differently at other clubs with different players? think so.

Tactically he was found out at this level ... But that no nothing non OTIB poster Harry Redknapp keeps wanting to work with him. 

He just isn't cut out to be a Championship manager... His CV says Championship manager all over it.

Easy this.

 

 

 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

28 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Lee Tomlin.

Because of course Tomlin did everything didn't he? Defence, goalkeeping and so on...

He wasn't the difference between staying up and relegation, Johnson and Pembo were plus binning off Cotterill helped massively. He was out his depth and his record at Championship level his mediocre at best 

Your u-turn is your bitterness towards SL and LJ

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

2 minutes ago, Sixtyseconds said:

We would never have survived under SC ... You sure? Has he form for relegating teams? Promoted one or two mind. On the CV it is.

His refusal to ditch the 3atb system ... Maybe. Maybe not. Seemed to want extra players. Doubt he would have been blowing just the one horn "we're Bristol City we play 3-5-2". Did he play differently at other clubs with different players? think so.

Tactically he was found out at this level ... But that no nothing non OTIB poster Harry Redknapp keeps wanting to work with him. 

He just isn't cut out to be a Championship manager... His CV says Championship manager all over it.

Easy this.

 

 

 

Stats don't lie and a 15% win record with us at Championship level says it all

[Sixtyseconds]

Just now, Emperor Palpatine said:

Stats don't lie and a 15% win record with us at Championship level says it all

If the 15% win record says it all best throw the Trophies away which don't amount to summat at all.