Gareth Thomas - Hate In Football (Merged)

[RUSSEL85]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I didnt want this photo of me to be published. Scandalous. You will be hearing from my lawyer.

[Eddie Hitler]

46 minutes ago, Robbored said:

This isn't a debate about homosexual bigotry but my point was that a significant number of heterosexuals find homosexuality either offensive or amusing - bigotry in other words. 

Homosexuals just want their sexuality to be seen as perfectly acceptable in society.

 

 

 

They are not however "facing bigotry".

You cannot control how people think; only how they behave.  If somebody thinks that "homosexuality [is] either offensive or amusing" then they're free to hold that view; but not to behave in an offensive way to someone who is.

[exAtyeoMax]

13 hours ago, steveybadger said:

Wow, what a seriously depressing hour. No surprise whatsoever that there are no openly gay male footballers in this country.

- 16 weeks of trying to get an interview with Greg Clarke and being ignored.

- Premier League refusing to be interviewed on camera

- what can only be described as a complete car crash of an interview with Graham Taylor and the Head of Equality at the PFA, who simply didn't have a clue or any plan of action to help any footballer who decided to come out

- the same tired old 'it's only banter' / there's no problem in football / the gays should stop forcing their views on us bollocks to justify the abuse. 

The only highlight was Thomas registering on a Palace fan site and inviting the worst homophobic abusers to meet him in person to discuss why they were posting such shite, and surprise surprise nobody turning up.

All this in 2017.

 

I do wonder if the Prem are worried about losing sponsorship/investment from countries/individuals who aren't so progressive in their ideals? Is this why the media are so intent of 'outing' prem players because of bigotry further up the food chain? After all, it's only about money to the FA/Prem. etc.

Are players deterred or prevented coming out by their clubs, directly or indirectly, due to worries over upsetting the audiences/investors in countries where homosexuality may be illegal or homophobia is the norm?

[Maesknoll Red]

9 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

I not sure what you think is being rammed down your throat. There are over 200 million professional footballers in the men's game alone and there is only one who has felt comfortable in coming out.  That's what the program was about it wasn't rammed down your throat, in fact, you could simply choose not to watch it. In fact, it means there are proabaly at least 16 million footballers uncomfortable with coming out + keeping it secret - definitely not ramming down your throat.

 

200 million professional footballers - I am no statistician, but you might want to revisit that figure!

[handsofclay]

9 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

200 million professional footballers - I am no statistician, but you might want to revisit that figure!

He is counting those who are contracted to Chelsea so that accounts for it.

[steveybadger]

24 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I do wonder if the Prem are worried about losing sponsorship/investment from countries/individuals who aren't so progressive in their ideals? Is this why the media are so intent of 'outing' prem players because of bigotry further up the food chain? After all, it's only about money to the FA/Prem. etc.

Are players deterred or prevented coming out by their clubs, directly or indirectly, due to worries over upsetting the audiences/investors in countries where homosexuality may be illegal or homophobia is the norm?

Interestingly Gareth Thomas has fronted a Guinness ad based on his coming out which has been very popular according to one of their execs. He also said that the first footballer to come out while playing would get huge commercial deals - about overvoming adversity / courage etc. 

[chipdawg]

To all the "I don't want it ramming down my throat"/"there's an agenda"/"homosexuals in the media constantly want to talk about it" sets, it may surprise you to know that the vast majority of homosexuals in the U.K. don't actually want you to know what goes on in their private lives. They don't want you to know whether their partner is a man or a woman. Your opinion of them is as irrelevant to them as their opinion of you is to them. But while there are significant sections of the population who still think it's acceptable to abuse someone for their sexual preference or to chant at the opposition because there happens to be a large population of gay men and women in their fan base, then there isn't really much choice, is there? So how about being part of the solution and helping to stop homosexuality being a social stigma rather than dismissing it as 'banter' (I ******* hate that word). Then you won't have to hear about it "all the time"

[exAtyeoMax]

12 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Interestingly Gareth Thomas has fronted a Guinness ad based on his coming out which has been very popular according to one of their execs. He also said that the first footballer to come out while playing would get huge commercial deals - about overvoming adversity / courage etc. 

Hmm, depends who holds the purse strings…

 

Plus would you really want to go through all that for financial gain and exploitation by advertising companies etc? It's a personal issue for that individual, not all about money…

[Bar BS3]

17 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

To all the "I don't want it ramming down my throat"/"there's an agenda"/"homosexuals in the media constantly want to talk about it" sets, it may surprise you to know that the vast majority of homosexuals in the U.K. don't actually want you to know what goes on in their private lives. They don't want you to know whether their partner is a man or a woman. Your opinion of them is as irrelevant to them as their opinion of you is to them. But while there are significant sections of the population who still think it's acceptable to abuse someone for their sexual preference or to chant at the opposition because there happens to be a large population of gay men and women in their fan base, then there isn't really much choice, is there? So how about being part of the solution and helping to stop homosexuality being a social stigma rather than dismissing it as 'banter' (I ******* hate that word). Then you won't have to hear about it "all the time"

The day people can't laught at/about their own differences/stereo types - will be a sad day indeed. 

I've never driven a tractor, yet that's our thing. 

Not everyone in Brighton is gay, but many are. 

Darrell Clarke once wanked off a dog, it doesn't mean it's and every day occurance for him. 

People need to lighten up a bit. 

Outright abuse, physical attacks, even nasty comments are wrong. Plain and simple. 

A bit of humour is essential in this life. 

[SARJ]

34 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

The day people can't laught at/about their own differences/stereo types - will be a sad day indeed. 

I've never driven a tractor, yet that's our thing. 

Not everyone in Brighton is gay, but many are. 

Darrell Clarke once wanked off a dog, it doesn't mean it's and every day occurance for him. 

People need to lighten up a bit. 

Outright abuse, physical attacks, even nasty comments are wrong. Plain and simple. 

A bit of humour is essential in this life. 

Exactly, can't imagine everyone who sings songs directed at Brighton are raging homophobes looking to eradicate the gays, just a bit of banter to wind up the opposition.

As someone of Israeli descent (and I also happen to work in Finance, have a huge nose and be very good with money) I am the butt of lots of jokes in our group of lads. But it's only bants, if I can get over it and see it for what it is, I'm sure others can. And believe me, fire back as well, banter is a 2 way thing.

For those who watch Game of Thrones, there's a dwarf character called Tyrion Lannister who's father hates him because he's a midget. He once famously said: “Let me give you some advice, bastard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.” Well said. Embrace your stereotypes for comedic betterment of all I say!

[chipdawg]

28 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

The day people can't laught at/about their own differences/stereo types - will be a sad day indeed. 

I've never driven a tractor, yet that's our thing. 

Not everyone in Brighton is gay, but many are. 

Darrell Clarke once wanked off a dog, it doesn't mean it's and every day occurance for him. 

People need to lighten up a bit. 

Outright abuse, physical attacks, even nasty comments are wrong. Plain and simple. 

A bit of humour is essential in this life. 

I agree, but you or I don't get to decide what a subset of the population do and don't find offensive. Evidently- because gay people in the media, football community, whatever, are still "ramming it down our throats"- it's not acceptable to some. I agree that singing "does your boyfriend know you're here" at Brighton fans in itself is not particularly offensive; as with Tottenham and the 'Yids' nickname, the fans have decided to 'own' it rather than fight it. But that creates an atmosphere that some people will believe allows them to spout their more offensive views. Freedom of Speech should never be confused with 'freedom to say whatever I want'

And to return to Gareth Thomas' original question, does anyone honestly believe that if a professional footballer came out in this country that there would be no negative ramifications whatsoever? That's why it's still an issue in 2017

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

And to return to Gareth Thomas' original question, does anyone honestly believe that if a professional footballer came out in this country that there would be no negative ramifications whatsoever? That's why it's still an issue in 2017

Of course there would be and not just from the terraces. 

The dressing room "banter" is something  closeted players fear. I remember LeSaux saying how certain teammates took the piss because he read broadsheets and he didn't  engage in sex banter either so rumours started that he was gay.........

I can't imagine the dressing room is any different these days.

.

[chipdawg]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Of course there would be and not just from the terraces. 

The dressing room "banter" is something  closeted players fear. I remember LeSaux saying how certain teammates took the piss because he read broadsheets and he didn't  engage in sex banter either so rumours started that he was gay.........

I can't imagine the dressing room is any different these days.

.

I don't think the dressing room would be that big a problem actually. Dressing rooms are much more international and much younger than they used to be. I would think the average 20-something Premier League footballer would have gay friends and gay associates. Some may even be aware of significant gay followings on social media and be keen to commercialise. I just think that 20 year old kids today give far less of a shit about sexuality than 20 year old kids did 30 years ago

[Bar BS3]

40 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

I agree, but you or I don't get to decide what a subset of the population do and don't find offensive. Evidently- because gay people in the media, football community, whatever, are still "ramming it down our throats"- it's not acceptable to some. I agree that singing "does your boyfriend know you're here" at Brighton fans in itself is not particularly offensive; as with Tottenham and the 'Yids' nickname, the fans have decided to 'own' it rather than fight it. But that creates an atmosphere that some people will believe allows them to spout their more offensive views. Freedom of Speech should never be confused with 'freedom to say whatever I want'

And to return to Gareth Thomas' original question, does anyone honestly believe that if a professional footballer came out in this country that there would be no negative ramifications whatsoever? That's why it's still an issue in 2017

I doubt there actually are many professional footballers who are gay. 

If they were gay, then by the time they left public school, they'd have opted for Rugby instead!

 

 

JOKE!!

[Phileas Fogg]

Statistically speaking we must have had a few gay players in our squads over the years. I have my suspicions about one from the current era.

The sad thing is, whilst the majority of fans would just accept it - there would be a vocal minority who would give dogs abuse. It's far easier for footballers to just not come out.

It shouldn't be like that - but if/when a footballer comes out - there'll be a flurry of media attention and they'll be seen as a real trailblazer. Would be a huge distraction to the player and the club and just not worth it.

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

I don't think the dressing room would be that big a problem actually. Dressing rooms are much more international and much younger than they used to be. I would think the average 20-something Premier League footballer would have gay friends and gay associates. Some may even be aware of significant gay followings on social media and be keen to commercialise. I just think that 20 year old kids today give far less of a shit about sexuality than 20 year old kids did 30 years ago

Maybe........but as we all know there are lots of uneducated and frankly dim pro footballers.........

[Bar BS3]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Statistically speaking we must have had a few gay players in our squads over the years. I have my suspicions about one from the current era.

The sad thing is, whilst the majority of fans would just accept it - there would be a vocal minority who would give dogs abuse. It's far easier for footballers to just not come out.

It shouldn't be like that - but if/when a footballer comes out - there'll be a flurry of media attention and they'll be seen as a real trailblazer. Would be a huge distraction to the player and the club and just not worth it.

Seriously..?

You really believe that should one of our players be gay, that he'd be faced with "dogs abuse" from sections of our support..? I see "dogs abuse" as hate filled vitriol aimed directly at an individual. 

Of course they'd be the topic of "banter" in private conversations amongst fans, as was the weight of Tomlin/Khul etc. 

I very much doubt, whatever a supporters beliefs on same sex relationships, that anyone would verbally attack a player for it. 

[Bar BS3]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Maybe........but as we all know there are lots of uneducated and frankly dim pro footballers.........

So it's ok to slate an individuals accademic upbringing, but not their sexuality..? Careful.. some might call that very hypocritical. 

[Phileas Fogg]

Just now, Bar BS3 said:

Seriously..?

You really believe that should one of our players be gay, that he'd be faced with "dogs abuse" from sections of our support..? I see "dogs abuse" as hate filled vitriol aimed directly at an individual. 

Of course they'd be the topic of "banter" in private conversations amongst fans, as was the weight of Tomlin/Khul etc. 

I very much doubt, whatever a supporters beliefs on same sex relationships, that anyone would verbally attack a player for it. 

I meant opposition supporters really, didn't make that clear. Perhaps a bit strong terminology reading back but they'd definitely get lots of stick.

I think supporters sadly would verbally attack players for it, particularly if they played for local rivals.

[Bar BS3]

Just now, Phileas Fogg said:

I meant opposition supporters really, didn't make that clear. Perhaps a bit strong terminology reading back but they'd definitely get lots of stick.

I think supporters sadly would verbally attack players for it, particularly if they played for local rivals.

Any worse than stick that Tomlin got/gets for his physical stature..? 

Should it really bother someone if they are happy & comfortable with their personal lives..? 

I'm not buying this "they are too scared to come out" crap. That flames the problem (if one actually exists) rather than helps solve it. 

[Robbored]

20 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

So it's ok to slate an individuals accademic upbringing, but not their sexuality..? Careful.. some might call that very hypocritical. 

It could be argued that slating a person for one thing but not for another is hypocritical......

[Phileas Fogg]

22 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Any worse than stick that Tomlin got/gets for his physical stature..? 

Should it really bother someone if they are happy & comfortable with their personal lives..? 

Oh far worse. The Tomlin stuff wasn't out of malice, it's 'acceptable' stick in football fan culture. 

Quote

I'm not buying this "they are too scared to come out" crap. That flames the problem (if one actually exists) rather than helps solve it. 

It's a chicken and egg situation, we won't really know how bad/fine it would be until someone comes out. 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

21 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

So it's ok to slate an individuals accademic upbringing, but not their sexuality..? Careful.. some might call that very hypocritical. 

It may not be ok, but it is certainly different.  Your sexual orientation is inherent; your academic upbringing isn't. 

I note also that you 'don't buy this they are scared to come out crap' but, with respect, you may not be in the best position to judge.  People who have been in that position have commented that it is too difficult to come out, and the one player who did come out has gone on record about how difficult it was.  Until it happens in the UK we don't know what the reaction will be from fans, but certainly the evidence of the cliched chants aimed at Brighton fans is that there is not a huge amount of tolerance out there.

[Bar BS3]

Just now, Phileas Fogg said:

Oh far worse. The Tomlin stuff wasn't out of malice, it's 'acceptable' stick in football fan culture. 

It's a chicken and egg situation, we won't really know how bad/fine it would be until someone come see out. 

It's not the 80's, seeing a gay person isn't unusual now. It's celebrated and to coin a phrase, it is "rammed down our throats"

There is plenty of gay representation on TV, in society, in media & music. The fact there are so few "out" only makes it a bigger deal. The sooner they do, the sooner it's "normal". 

Do or don't, I couldn't care less. That's the point, I don't think people do care and any reference to it will only be in harmless jest. 

 

[Bar BS3]

6 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

It may not be ok, but it is certainly different.  Your sexual orientation is inherent; your academic upbringing isn't. 

I note also that you 'don't buy this they are scared to come out crap' but, with respect, you may not be in the best position to judge.  People who have been in that position have commented that it is too difficult to come out, and the one player who did come out has gone on record about how difficult it was.  Until it happens in the UK we don't know what the reaction will be from fans, but certainly the evidence of the cliched chants aimed at Brighton fans is that there is not a huge amount of tolerance out there.

A cliched chant isn't going to stop someone (who wants too) coming out about their private lives, surely..? THAT is part of "football culture" and harmless. Often adopted by the targets. 

I can't see a hate filled mob rushing to the front of the stands, frothing at the mouth and subjecting them to a torrent of direct, personal, threatening abuse, just because of the person they happen to be in love with!

No, it's not something I'll have to step up and face myself, but I simply can't believe that in this day and age, without being extremely over sensitive, that any supporter would indulge in anything other than childish quips amongst their friends about such a thing. 

Maybe im wrong/naive, but I'd like to think that the world has come a long way since the pre-1980's and, as I say, it's hardly like being gay isn't commonplace in almost every other walk of life nowadays. 

[Phileas Fogg]

6 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

It's not the 80's, seeing a gay person isn't unusual now. It's celebrated and to coin a phrase, it is "rammed down our throats"

There is plenty of gay representation on TV, in society, in media & music. The fact there are so few "out" only makes it a bigger deal. The sooner they do, the sooner it's "normal". 

Do or don't, I couldn't care less. That's the point, I don't think people do care and any reference to it will only be in harmless jest. 

 

I disagree and think there would be issues sadly. You or I may not care, but there are people who watch football who would give abuse - probably disguised as 'banter'.

The fact that no players do when its statistically very unlikely there are 0 publicly gay footballers in this country says it all, there's clearly a reason why they don't feel ok with coming out. TV, music and the media are different - they're the arts and aren't comparable to red-blooded, male dominated sports. 

We won't know until a player reveals his sexuality so I don't have much more to say about it.

[Bar BS3]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I disagree and think there would be issues sadly. You or I may not care, but there are people who watch football who would give abuse - probably disguised as 'banter'.

The fact that no players do when its statistically very unlikely there are 0 publicly gay footballers in this country says it all, there's clearly a reason why they don't feel ok with coming out. TV, music and the media are different - they're the arts and aren't comparable to red-blooded, male dominated sports. 

We won't know until a player reveals his sexuality so I don't have much more to say about it.

I can't argue with your points, I just hope my faith in the human race is a little more accurate than yours. 

I'm sure there are still some who have outdated views. Some probably don't like seeing a black man wearing our shirt, thankfully, nowadays, they keep those opinions to themselves. 

It will be interesting to see the reaction, when it happens. I hope there is nothing more than lighthearted reference from the stands when it happens. I can't see anyone going to levels of abuse over such a nothing issue as to where someone chooses to stick their cock! 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

8 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

A cliched chant isn't going to stop someone (who wants too) coming out about their private lives, surely..? THAT is part of "football culture" and harmless. Often adopted by the targets. 

I can't see a hate filled mob rushing to the front of the stands, frothing at the mouth and subjecting them to a torrent of direct, personal, threatening abuse, just because of the person they happen to be in love with!

No, it's not something I'll have to step up and face myself, but I simply can't believe that in this day and age, without being extremely over sensitive, that any supporter would indulge in anything other than childish quips amongst their friends about such a thing. 

Maybe im wrong/naive, but I'd like to think that the world has come a long way since the pre-1980's and, as I say, it's hardly like being gay isn't commonplace in almost every other walk of life nowadays. 

I agree that it would be nice to think that the world has come a long way since 1980 - and I think it has - but we're not talking about hate-filled mobs here.  We are talking about people being made to feel uncomfortable, and therefore unaccepted, for being the person they are.  Sadly, I think that there is still the likelihood of that, which is why this remains a difficult issue for football.  I think that the comments that Gareth Thomas received from Crystal Palace fans went far beyond the concept of 'banter'.  Many were deeply offensive and appeared representative of a very hostile and discriminatory culture.  I was shocked at just how offensive some fans were prepared to be.

[Bar BS3]

15 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I agree that it would be nice to think that the world has come a long way since 1980 - and I think it has - but we're not talking about hate-filled mobs here.  We are talking about people being made to feel uncomfortable, and therefore unaccepted, for being the person they are.  Sadly, I think that there is still the likelihood of that, which is why this remains a difficult issue for football.  I think that the comments that Gareth Thomas received from Crystal Palace fans went far beyond the concept of 'banter'.  Many were deeply offensive and appeared representative of a very hostile and discriminatory culture.  I was shocked at just how offensive some fans were prepared to be.

I've not seen the programme, so I'm not aware of the examples that you refer to. 

Social media almost needs to be ignored. It's too unaccountable and full of trolls. That's not representative of how people behave in public. Even LJ apparently received "death threats" last season. I mean, really..?!

Also, what is it with Gareth Thomas reffering to his experiences of football? Wasn't he a Rugby player..? 

I do agree with one of the previous posters, that he strikes me as a bit of a fame whore. 

[Bar BS3]

12 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

I not sure what you think is being rammed down your throat. There are over 200 million professional footballers in the men's game alone and there is only one who has felt comfortable in coming out.  That's what the program was about it wasn't rammed down your throat, in fact, you could simply choose not to watch it. In fact, it means there are proabaly at least 16 million footballers uncomfortable with coming out + keeping it secret - definitely not ramming down your throat.

 

By "200 million professional players", do you mean a far more realistic "60,000"...?!