One variable: Hegeler / Baker?

[Tom Fleuriot]

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Don't think many if any would dispute that Hegeler makes us better in possession coming from the back

Think the issue is whether you can afford to sacrifice Bakers better defensive capability for better capability on the ball  - Morrison would have been a nightmare for JH today

Combine them and you have a Premier quality centre half !!!

[KeepUpLino]

5 minutes ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

I said exactly this to my friend today, since his exclusion we have looked less than ordinary!! Coincidence?

[Fordy62]

6 minutes ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

Good question Tom. 

I'm not sure one change could make such a massive difference. Im afraid our inconsistencies are our biggest problem. Im sure we could deal with it if we were good most of the time, but continuing from last season, our appetites are whetted by 45 minutes of blistering football, only for it not be seen again for 4-5 games. 

It seems when we're good (25% of the time) we're very good. But when we're not good - 75% of the time - we're diabolical. 

[ZiderEyed]

Well Baker impressed me today. We'd have lost that game with JH starting. Ideally I'd quite like to see more of JH in that role, hes obviously better than Baker at bringing the ball out. Interesting thought really, I guess its another cool head in possession with a bit more of a range than you're average centre hald.

[Spoons]

My neck is sore after today! The ball was in the air for the whole game , dying for a player to take control ( like hegeler?) and pass his way out.

not sure if we dropped to their level or we just lacked real quality?!

[RT's Vaseline Tub]

I'd drop Wright as Baker/Hegeler have a bit of everything rather than 2 the same. The only problem is LJ made him Captain so that scuppers my plan somewhat. Korey would have been a better bet keeping the captaincy as never likely to be dropped for loss of form just if injury happens to him...

[ashton_fan]

2 minutes ago, Derek from Nailsea said:

I'd drop Wright as Baker/Hegeler have a bit of everything rather than 2 the same. The only problem is LJ made him Captain so that scuppers my plan somewhat. Korey would have been a better bet keeping the captaincy as never likely to be dropped for loss of form just if injury happens to him...

I thought he could have rested Wright today as he must have played more minutes than the others on top of his recent international matches, I would have started with Baker and Hegeler. I'm not sure about Hegeler in away games at CB but he could make a difference for home games.

[WayOutWest]

I don't think you can drop Wright or Baker. 

I would like to see Hegeler replacing Korey Smith. 

In that deeper midfield role in front of our back 4.

 

 It's obvious he is good with the ball at his feet. He is a calm presence and would like to see him dictate play. 

I don't think he has convinced LJ enough to play that role. 

To answer your question,  our football has suffered in terms of creativity with the loss of Hegeler but we seem more solid at the back. 

I don't think Hegeler will dislodge Baker. It will be interesting once the Flint situation is resolved. 

He best route to be in first 11 would be Korey Smith's place in my opinion. 

Stevo

[Dr Balls]

The answer would be to combine them by playing Wright, Hegeler and Baker as a back 3 in a 3-4-2-1 formation, and allow Hegeler to come forward with ball. Play Bryan & Pisano as wing backs because that's what they are already, and most of the time have no one in front of them either as cover or for making crosses. Play Gary O'Neill plus someone better than Pack or Korey in central midfield. Bobby Reid & Paterson then play as a front pair behind Diedhou as the central striker.

A similar formation to Chelsea last season where David Luiz was given freedom to come forward from a back 3.

At the very least it offers a "Plan B", which seems to be something seriously lacking from our coaching team at present.

[WayOutWest]

2 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

The answer would be to combine them by playing Wright, Hegeler and Baker as a back 3 in a 3-4-2-1 formation, and allow Hegeler to come forward with ball. Play Bryan & Pisano as wing backs because that's what they are already, and most of the time have no one in front of them either as cover or for making crosses. Play Gary O'Neill plus someone better than Pack or Korey in central midfield. Bobby Reid & Paterson then play as a front pair behind Diedhou as the central striker.

A similar formation to Chelsea last season where David Luiz was given freedom to come forward from a back 3.

At the very least it offers a "Plan B", which seems to be something seriously lacking from our coaching team at present.

I think you have to be a very good team to play 3 at the back. Whilst that would accommodate Hegeler for me that is not the solution. 

Simply put I don't think we are good enough to play that system. 

[GrahamC]

Think the OP has posed a good question- however I think that LJ (rightly in my view) has settled on a Wright/Baker partnership for the season's duration, injury or suspension notwithstanding.

As for Hegeler you can certainly make a case to say he would have given us something different in midfield today, however having seen him struggle with the pace of the English game at times, I'm not sure that Millwall would be his sort of opponent, as they pressed and allowed us little time on the ball.

I'm therefore left unsure as to what circumstances would see Hegeler get a start bar as I said earlier, a ban or injury at the back and am struggling to come up with one...

[Dr Balls]

13 minutes ago, WayOutWest said:

I think you have to be a very good team to play 3 at the back. Whilst that would accommodate Hegeler for me that is not the solution. 

Simply put I don't think we are good enough to play that system. 

Take your point but we were clearly missing something today. Hegeler is not the best defender as a centre half, but what he does have is an ability to retain possession, remain calm and bring the ball forward providing an additional body in midfield moving the ball to our attacking players further up the field. Perhaps we play 4-1-2-3, with Hegeler as a sweeper. It might even help our p!ss poor central midfield.

Play like we did today against better teams than Millwall and even Frankie's acrobatics and some last ditch "putting bodies on the line" defending won't be enough to save us.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Think the OP has posed a good question- however I think that LJ (rightly in my view) has settled on a Wright/Baker partnership for the season's duration, injury or suspension notwithstanding.

As for Hegeler you can certainly make a case to say he would have given us something different in midfield today, however having seen him struggle with the pace of the English game at times, I'm not sure that Millwall would be his sort of opponent, as they pressed and allowed us little time on the ball.

I'm therefore left unsure as to what circumstances would see Hegeler get a start bar as I said earlier, a ban or injury at the back and am struggling to come up with one...

Bought without a real idea / thought , how we were going to use him IMHO Graham

[Wrongagain]

Biggest tactical difference - we are used to seeing Flinty giving defences nightmares with set pieces - he is not there WTF are the other BIG defenders doing now? There is a reason Flint has been scoring and he did not do that from outside the box!

[WayOutWest]

He is a conundrum. When he was bought to the club it would be interesting to see what position management saw him in. 

He is not likely to be picked as a centre half. Therefore, it was as a midfielder?  A position he has not secured. Maybe they bought him in to push Pack/Smith/O'Neil, but has not convinced. 

 

[David Brent]

I pondered the same during the game. Baker liked the long ball today and rarely carries it forward like Hegeler, a bit like Flint. 

I came to the conclusion that had Hegeler been playing it would definitely have been a different outcome, but could easily have gone either way.

[MarkRed!]

Hegeler knitted everything together and enabled us to build from the back. 1st half at Brum he was immense. 2nd half johnson was outmanoeuvred. Hegeler is then dropped and our defenders just don't link the play and cannot play that driving pass that takes us forward. It is sideways and backwards. Ultimately it ends up with a hoof. Personally do not see why Hegeler was dropped. If we need someone physical in there then it is Baker or Wright. Last 2 games we have been shite and barely threatened Brentford or Millwall. Surely LJ can see this...... 

[BCFC Rich]

To Hegeler is a CB or CM. So why not play him in that role? Have him play deep CM/CB pushing forward. When we're in possession he can bring it forward from that back but can drop in when we're not. Means we have a solid CB partnership in Bailey, Baker (who were great today) and gives more license to Joe and Pisano to push on.

Somewhere between 5 at the back and 4 with one just in front.

[Dr Balls]

38 minutes ago, MarkRed! said:

Hegeler knitted everything together and enabled us to build from the back. 1st half at Brum he was immense. 2nd half johnson was outmanoeuvred. Hegeler is then dropped and our defenders just don't link the play and cannot play that driving pass that takes us forward. It is sideways and backwards. Ultimately it ends up with a hoof. Personally do not see why Hegeler was dropped. If we need someone physical in there then it is Baker or Wright. Last 2 games we have been shite and barely threatened Brentford or Millwall. Surely LJ can see this...... 

I would really like to think so too, but past experience does not make me hopeful!

Talking of what LJ sees from the sidelines, why are we only seeing replays on the screens from a camera at pitch level? Sitting much higher up in the stand, it makes you appreciate how poor the overall view of the pitch is from down at that level. Perhaps that explains why in post-match interviews, LJ seems to be describing a different game from the one that the rest of us watched!

[brady bunch]

I have seen all our 4 league games, based on what I have seen, we need to find room for Hegeler somewhere!

far better footballer then any other CB OR CM that we have. 

Wright is the person to give way for me, but given what LJ said about him I think he is undropable.....

 

 

[Cider Army]

Hegeler would be great playing in front of the two centre backs his ability to sweep up play create a pass,But I just can't see Johnson doing this.Another wasted player we have. 

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

Good question.  Personally I don't think it would've made too much difference today in terms of bringing the ball out.  In fact Baker did have a bit of a run with the ball into nosebleed territory.  We would definitely have lost out aerially today.  I think @Olé has mentioned that Hegeler does win first ball, but perhaps not today v Morison.

9 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don't think many if any would dispute that Hegeler makes us better in possession coming from the back

Think the issue is whether you can afford to sacrifice Bakers better defensive capability for better capability on the ball  - Morrison would have been a nightmare for JH today

Combine them and you have a Premier quality centre half !!!

Yes, agree.  Maybe not a nightmare.

8 hours ago, Derek from Nailsea said:

I'd drop Wright as Baker/Hegeler have a bit of everything rather than 2 the same. The only problem is LJ made him Captain so that scuppers my plan somewhat. Korey would have been a better bet keeping the captaincy as never likely to be dropped for loss of form just if injury happens to him...

Not saying I'd drop Wright, but I'd like to see these two in partnership at some point.  Wright's sideways (but behind the player) passing annoys me...and it slows the tempo.  There was enough time and space at times to pass in front so Baker, Pisano and Bryan don't have to go back, retrieve the ball and then find themselves closed down and angles restricted.

8 hours ago, dave36 said:

Biggest tactical difference - we are used to seeing Flinty giving defences nightmares with set pieces - he is not there WTF are the other BIG defenders doing now? There is a reason Flint has been scoring and he did not do that from outside the box!

Both Baker and Hegeler have scored this season, in fact Hegeler could quite easily have 4 goaks to his name already.  Pisano almost got one today.  I think we look as equal a threat without Flint.  In fact we are less predictable.  Everything went through Flint, so was easier to set up and defend against.  Now we can have different set piece routines.

[havanatopia]

Can somebody please tell LJ that he is allowed to drop Wright and give the arm band to his sub captain?

Talking of captaincy; I wonder if there is a correlation between Korey losing it and his dip in form?

There is never an easy way to tell a player the arm band is not his anymore but with Lee J I am sure he went out of his way to explain the facts of life to Korey in such a way that he thought was with the utmost empathy and understanding. The problem is it probably came across as if Korey was a completely useless captain and should just concentrate on his football or he would be dropped to the reserves.

[1960maaan]

I honestly think Wright/Baker is an improvement from Flint/A.N.Other.  I also think that Hegeler playing yesterday we would have lost.
That's not to say I don't like him as CB , and against footballing teams he'd do OK, but yesterday their single simple tactic pulled our defence apart in a way that would exposed Heglers lack of pace. Where he would have improved us is taking the ball forward into the MF space left when CM spread. I thought that Baker and Wright did ok at this , but Hegeler would have been better. It would also mean more space for that long ball to their forwards .

For the Watford game I'd like to see LJ try a MF 3 , Hegeler in the middle with 2 runners either side. This may lead to one up front which I know annoys some, but with Eliasson and ODowda on the wings with licence to push on we may not loose too much attacking threat. 
If He's is to play CB I can only see it in a 3 as those last ditch tackles yesterday would be less likely simply due to his pace.

[old_eastender]

Hegeler definitely helps us link defence to attack, by his ability to bring the ball out and pass to a teammate (you'd like to think that was a pre-requisite for any professional footballer but on the evidence of our last 2.5 games it's clearly not). Trouble is Hegeler is certainly not as good a CB as either Wright or Baker though, Hegeler was partially culpable for the Brum winning goal for example.

As others have said, I'd play him as midfield anchor, but LJ is on record as stating that Hegeler can't play as one of a central midfield two.  

[Rocking Red Cyril]

11 hours ago, WayOutWest said:

I don't think you can drop Wright or Baker. 

I would like to see Hegeler replacing Korey Smith. 

In that deeper midfield role in front of our back 4.

 

 It's obvious he is good with the ball at his feet. He is a calm presence and would like to see him dictate play. 

I don't think he has convinced LJ enough to play that role. 

To answer your question,  our football has suffered in terms of creativity with the loss of Hegeler but we seem more solid at the back. 

I don't think Hegeler will dislodge Baker. It will be interesting once the Flint situation is resolved. 

He best route to be in first 11 would be Korey Smith's place in my opinion. 

Stevo

' Flint situation resolved '

If he is still under contract to Bristol City play him. we are a more secure organised defensive unit with Flint playing. Flint gives his all always and I am sorry but even if he has had his head turned he will not let you down. Play Flint !!!!!

[chinapig]

14 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Hegeler definitely helps us link defence to attack, by his ability to bring the ball out and pass to a teammate (you'd like to think that was a pre-requisite for any professional footballer but on the evidence of our last 2.5 games it's clearly not). Trouble is Hegeler is certainly not as good a CB as either Wright or Baker though, Hegeler was partially culpable for the Brum winning goal for example.

As others have said, I'd play him as midfield anchor, but LJ is on record as stating that Hegeler can't play as one of a central midfield two.  

So why can he not play 4-3-2-1 I wonder?

[spudski]

Maybe yesterday was a good time to play Wright/Baker.

However...I'd much rather see a Hegeler/Baker partnership.

Hegeler isn't your traditional British CB. But he does win first balls and is effective in the air, both in defence and attack. He's deceiving in his style.

Baker is solid, but also showed an ability yesterday, to take the ball out from defence and dribble into the opponents half, as does Hegeler.

Wright is solid...but imo, he's slower than a sinking battleship and doesn't have the adaptability and other strengths that Hegeler and Baker both possess, which imo, would give you an edge in this division.

[Flagon]

I feel like Baker is a more solid defender who was better placed to deal with Millwall's aggressive play but you definitely lose the quality on the ball that Hegeler offers. 

[MarkRed!]

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I honestly think Wright/Baker is an improvement from Flint/A.N.Other.  I also think that Hegeler playing yesterday we would have lost.
That's not to say I don't like him as CB , and against footballing teams he'd do OK, but yesterday their single simple tactic pulled our defence apart in a way that would exposed Heglers lack of pace. Where he would have improved us is taking the ball forward into the MF space left when CM spread. I thought that Baker and Wright did ok at this , but Hegeler would have been better. It would also mean more space for that long ball to their forwards .

For the Watford game I'd like to see LJ try a MF 3 , Hegeler in the middle with 2 runners either side. This may lead to one up front which I know annoys some, but with Eliasson and ODowda on the wings with licence to push on we may not loose too much attacking threat. 
If He's is to play CB I can only see it in a 3 as those last ditch tackles yesterday would be less likely simply due to his pace.

Watford - I would play (4321)

 

Lucic, Kelly, Magnússon, Baker, Pisano, O'Neill, Hegeler, Brownhill, Odowda, Eliason, Woodrow

[Red-Robbo]

I think Baker had a pretty sound game yesterday. When I got back from the match, I was surpised to hear people on the radio having a go at the defence. They'd just defended 16 corners and kept Millwall largely confined to long range shots. I don't think anyone was brilliant, but if a defender's main job is to keep the opponents from scoring, that's what they did.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Don't think the defence was the issue yesterday. It was because we got bullied in midfield and then the ball just kept coming back! When that happens, even a great defence will be troubled. Hegeler between the back 4 and the midfield could have helped sweep up,  to put out the fires. Or indeed as part of a 3.

The Hegeler v Baker thing... It's interesting and hard to say. What we gain with Hegeler is his composure on the ball and a vital out ball when the ball keeps coming back. However we lose aerial ability. Baker's not bad on the ball but he's good in the air and physically- like a more 'pure defender'.

An 'out' ball can help relieve pressure but Baker's strengths were definitely useful yesterday. Hard to say what's best overall!

[gavlin]

Defensively yesterday LJ got it right because he knew Millwall would lump the high balls into their forwards but it showed the soft underbelly of the team, our midfield struggled to pick up the second balls from the defenders clearances and were out muscled by more physical opponents. In Pack, Smith the central midfield pair were overpowered and showed no  real bite , Paterson  and Brownhill looked lightweight.  If we play Hegelar In the back four at least his distribution can relieve the pressure at the back but we need more muscle in midfield like a Gerry Gow , or a Marvin Elliott . My advice go and buy Romain Sawyers.

[Berkshire Red]

Could hegeler not drop into the midfield in place of pack or Smith? Bring the ball forward from defensive positions while still keeping it tight in defence. He was good enough to play in champions league / Europa league and bundesliga so surely can't be struggling too badly with pace of championship 

[wendyredredrobin]

With Wright club captain and always likely to start, we are well endowed with centre backs and I am happy to see Flint, Hegeler or Baker alongside.  They are all decent centre halves.

But from what I've seen so far, Hegeler gets my vote due to his better ball playing and passing.  It's a fairly close call though.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 hours ago, MarkRed! said:

Watford - I would play (4321)

 

Lucic, Kelly, Magnússon, Baker, Pisano, O'Neill, Hegeler, Brownhill, Odowda, Eliason, Woodrow

Agree but we can't play Woodrow as he played for Fulham in the cup I believe.

Same team but Diedhiou for me.

[Full nelson]

17 hours ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

I'd be interested in knowing the thoughts on the below of people who have attended at least three league games. I went to Barnsley only. 

General consensus seems to be that first two league matches = 60% ish quality, second two = 10% if that. 

The only change in line up in those matches is Hegeler for Baker. 

Another poster (apologies - forgot who) suggested that Hegeler's superior ability to bring the ball out means the midfield can push further up / look for better space to receive the ball. This makes them less likely to get overrun in dangerous places / lose the ball / come deep and be unable to get the pass and move going. 

So my question is: is that plausible as a reason the football looks a lot worse now?

Would be great if people could not reply with alternatives like "no it's just that LJ is shit". He may well be, but I'm interested about that specific point.

Hegeler for Pack/Smith ?!? 

[wendyredredrobin]

We will need a 5 man midfield to get anything out of our next few games.

[shelts]

Hegeler should be in . Centre half with Baker or in for Korey or Pack.

[MarkRed!]

1 hour ago, shelts said:

Hegeler should be in . Centre half with Baker or in for Korey or Pack.

LJ has basically said he can't play in a midfield 2. I would have him in the team either as CB or as a three in midfield. Don't think LJ will do the latter.

[WayOutWest]

2 hours ago, MarkRed! said:

LJ has basically said he can't play in a midfield 2.

Bizarre!!!  If that is the case, then why bring him to the club.  He is not going to play in a regular Central Defensive pair.  He "cant" play in a midfield 2.  It appears he is not going to play in behind the front 2.  He ain't no left or right side midfield player.

Why bring in a player you either A) dont know what do with or B) rate

Stevo

[REDOXO]

22 hours ago, WayOutWest said:

I don't think you can drop Wright or Baker. I would like to see Hegeler replacing Korey Smith. 

In that deeper midfield role in front of our back 4.

 

 It's obvious he is good with the ball at his feet. He is a calm presence and would like to see him dictate play. 

I don't think he has convinced LJ enough to play that role. 

To answer your question,  our football has suffered in terms of creativity with the loss of Hegeler but we seem more solid at the back. 

I don't think Hegeler will dislodge Baker. It will be interesting once the Flint situation is resolved. 

He best route to be in first 11 would be Korey Smith's place in my opinion. 

Stevo

ABSOLUTELY! 

[Fiale]

8 hours ago, gavlin said:

Defensively yesterday LJ got it right because he knew Millwall would lump the high balls into their forwards but it showed the soft underbelly of the team, our midfield struggled to pick up the second balls from the defenders clearances and were out muscled by more physical opponents. In Pack, Smith the central midfield pair were overpowered and showed no  real bite , Paterson  and Brownhill looked lightweight.  If we play Hegelar In the back four at least his distribution can relieve the pressure at the back but we need more muscle in midfield like a Gerry Gow , or a Marvin Elliott . My advice go and buy Romain Sawyers.

 

Millwall played fewer long balls than us. They also seemed to have at least a plan, one of which was if they had no options a runner would go down the wings and get played  into the space behind our fallbacks. They did this a lot in the first half resulting in a lot of crosses, and balls into our box.

[Garland-sweden]

Our defence is working with Baker and Wright. Hegeler in midfield? Does any know what position Hegeler played in Germany?

[BobBobSuperBob]

30 minutes ago, Garland-sweden said:

Our defence is working with Baker and Wright. Hegeler in midfield? Does any know what position Hegeler played in Germany?

 

[Spud55]

20 hours ago, city2015 said:

Could hegeler not drop into the midfield in place of pack or Smith? Bring the ball forward from defensive positions while still keeping it tight in defence. He was good enough to play in champions league / Europa league and bundesliga so surely can't be struggling too badly with pace of championship 

I'd have him in for Smith, then depending on the situation depends who else you play, teams you are expecting to dominate you can take pack out as well and play Pato at the head of a diamond with Elliason and O'Dowda if you want to go balls out behind Reid and Deidhou, or games where you are expecting to be pressured you keep Pack in the middle and drop Bobby in behind Dedihou and move to a midfield 5 with bobby between the midfield and the striker.

On the subject of the defence yesterday, to be fair they did try to play out initially, but the midfield were that bad that I think after 20 / 30 minutes they had given up all hope of being able to give the ball to midfield and not have it come back almost immediately, their only option of a player to give it to who generally managed to hold onto the ball was Reid, so they started trying to bypass the midfield and get it to him.

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Garland-sweden

Chances are, and I'm only guessing here, but chances are he didn't play in a 2, in a 4-4-2 in Germany.

He clearly seems to be lacking something in that position, but brings positive attributes to team. Best in a midfield 3, a defensive midfield or perhaps as CB but I would think as a midfield 3, or DM his best position tbh.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Spud55 said:

I'd have him in for Smith, then depending on the situation depends who else you play, teams you are expecting to dominate you can take pack out as well and play Pato at the head of a diamond with Elliason and O'Dowda if you want to go balls out behind Reid and Deidhou, or games where you are expecting to be pressured you keep Pack in the middle and drop Bobby in behind Dedihou and move to a midfield 5 with bobby between the midfield and the striker.

On the subject of the defence yesterday, to be fair they did try to play out initially, but the midfield were that bad that I think after 20 / 30 minutes they had given up all hope of being able to give the ball to midfield and not have it come back almost immediately, their only option of a player to give it to who generally managed to hold onto the ball was Reid, so they started trying to bypass the midfield and get it to him.

Understand your thinking in a 'creative midfield sense'

But as everyone has muted that we got bullied in the middle of the park on Saturday and cries for a midfield enforcer / dominant central midfielder you think Hegeler and Patterson ( Aided by Ellison and O'Dowda) would be physical enough  ?

Nice idea but majorly flawed IMHO

[Nibor]

One way to avoid getting bullied is to take less time on the ball or have a bit more quality when you bring it forward, opponents who know you can beat them or pass around them will either stand off more or foul.  I think Hegeler has the quality to take the ball forward and can pick a pass based on what little we saw last season, but to be honest it won't matter who is in the middle if all your outlets just stand still.  I don't understand the "can't play in a two" comment.  Has he really managed to have a career mostly in the German top flight without being capable of playing in a midfield two? 

On Saturday's showing Smith would get dropped for O'Neill or Hegeler.  Depends who is more likely to make 90 minutes.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Nibor said:

One way to avoid getting bullied is to take less time on the ball or have a bit more quality when you bring it forward, opponents who know you can beat them or pass around them will either stand off more or foul.  I think Hegeler has the quality to take the ball forward and can pick a pass based on what little we saw last season, but to be honest it won't matter who is in the middle if all your outlets just stand still.  I don't understand the "can't play in a two" comment.  Has he really managed to have a career mostly in the German top flight without being capable of playing in a midfield two? 

On Saturday's showing Smith would get dropped for O'Neill or Hegeler.  Depends who is more likely to make 90 minutes.

4-4-2, certainly how we play it, isn't terribly big in Germany.

I reckon this country of say the top 8 or 10 European Leagues is fairly unique- and that is changing fast too- in terms of prevalence of a 4-4-2. It's becoming a lot less common at this level too. In fact barring a few sides even at this level, I don't even think it's so big in England either now. So chances are he may not have played in that setup in Germany too much.

[Spud55]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Understand your thinking in a 'creative midfield sense'

But as everyone has muted that we got bullied in the middle of the park on Saturday and cries for a midfield enforcer / dominant central midfielder you think Hegeler and Patterson ( Aided by Ellison and O'Dowda) would be physical enough  ?

Nice idea but majorly flawed IMHO

I don't think we were particularily bullied by millwall, we just couldn't keep hold of the ball in the middle as Smith and to a lesser extent the rest of midfield were just giving it to Millwall at every opportunity, Patterson was wondering around and was rarely on the left meaning Bryan had to try to take on at least 2 players to get anywhere, when Patterson got the ball in the middle him and Ried were working together brilliantly and were the players who looked capable of unlocking the Millwall defence.  So we lost all width as neither Brownhill or Patterson were making the runs out wide and neither were getting in positions often that could allow the full backs to break beyond them.  

When O'Dowda came on we looked generally better (although i still question his end product) I really don't think O'neil is the answer, I dont think you need an enforcer if you have players that can actually pass the ball, most of the "good" things that milwall did came as a direct result of our midfield being incapable on the whole of being able to pass 5 yards, it wasn't that they were missing pin point passes, it was an inability to give it to a bloke a few yards away without mis-placing the ball 2 yards behind him meaning he has to turn back and by the time we had the ball they would have a Millwall player in their face.

Also with nothing out wide Millwall were able to play a high press as they had nothing to fear, they could simply just compress the field and get on top of our players, because they know as well as everyone else that we do not have the ability to break quickly and get in behind.

I think our defence is solid enough, we defended well and other than one occasion where we had the ball in our own box and from the SS it looked as if O'Neil decided to charge down the clearance and then it ended up with us giving Millwall the ball in our own box, i'm still not entirely sure what happened there.  For all their corners I never really felt as if they were threatening to score (previously the thought of an opposition corner was terrifying) and the previous occasion excluded.

I genuinely believe that most of our problems come from our central midfield and we are generally under pressure of our own creation, I think Hegeler has the ability to get his foot on the ball and slow everything down when we are under the Kosh, but also the nous to carry the ball and pick up the pace when necessary, defensively our central midfield do not help, both Pack and Smith have the tendency to just back off and become part of the defence rather than protecting them, we have got better at stopping teams getting into the box (even against Brentford where we were battered, I would have been dissapointed if Frankie has conceded any of their efforts on goal the 2 goals aside, the save from Sawyers was his best but he was hardly pulling worldies out of his arse all game) but Pack a smith still give opposition players too much space, also their general positioning is poor, on saturday we won the vast majority of first balls, but almost none of the second balls as the midfield are just nowhere to be seen.

I think that Hegeler could solve a lot of these problems and Pato seems best in the attacking midfield role, and with actual wingers we have an outlet when we are under pressure, and i think the personel are less likley to put us under the pressure in the first place as they may either keep the ball or at least run at the opposition.

Using that midfield away against a better side would be suicide, but with a bit of tweaking (pulling bobby back and adding in Pack for Pato) you get a 5 man midfield that still retains the outlets out wide, but also has players in the middle who can keep the ball under a bit of pressure.

This is not to say that we shouldn't look to strengthen in the middle, we absolutely should and we have been sorely remiss by not doing so considering that many of our defensive frailties have come from the Midfield rather than the defence themselves.

[Nibor]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

4-4-2, certainly how we play it, isn't terribly big in Germany.

I reckon this country of say the top 8 or 10 European Leagues is fairly unique- and that is changing fast too- in terms of prevalence of a 4-4-2. It's becoming a lot less common at this level too. In fact barring a few sides, I don't even think it's so big in England either now.

Yes I know there's been a trend away from 4-4-2, you could hardly miss that but LJ has decided to play it.  Honestly the role of a central midfielder is not that different between the two, not enough to question to whether a player is capable of it or not.  Hegeler played for Hertha and Nurnberg in the top flight - top 10 sides.  That league is far and away better than the Championship in quality and it's got just as much pace and physicality.  The guy is 6 ft 4, decent on the ball and has a range of passing and comes across on the pitch and off as an intelligent person.  I think the claim he can't play in a two is extremely hard to believe.

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

I don't think we were particularily bullied by millwall, we just couldn't keep hold of the ball in the middle as Smith and to a lesser extent the rest of midfield were just giving it to Millwall at every opportunity, Patterson was wondering around and was rarely on the left meaning Bryan had to try to take on at least 2 players to get anywhere, when Patterson got the ball in the middle him and Ried were working together brilliantly and were the players who looked capable of unlocking the Millwall defence.  So we lost all width as neither Brownhill or Patterson were making the runs out wide and neither were getting in positions often that could allow the full backs to break beyond them.  

When O'Dowda came on we looked generally better (although i still question his end product) I really don't think O'neil is the answer, I dont think you need an enforcer if you have players that can actually pass the ball, most of the "good" things that milwall did came as a direct result of our midfield being incapable on the whole of being able to pass 5 yards, it wasn't that they were missing pin point passes, it was an inability to give it to a bloke a few yards away without mis-placing the ball 2 yards behind him meaning he has to turn back and by the time we had the ball they would have a Millwall player in their face.

Also with nothing out wide Millwall were able to play a high press as they had nothing to fear, they could simply just compress the field and get on top of our players, because they know as well as everyone else that we do not have the ability to break quickly and get in behind.

I think our defence is solid enough, we defended well and other than one occasion where we had the ball in our own box and from the SS it looked as if O'Neil decided to charge down the clearance and then it ended up with us giving Millwall the ball in our own box, i'm still not entirely sure what happened there.  For all their corners I never really felt as if they were threatening to score (previously the thought of an opposition corner was terrifying) and the previous occasion excluded.

I genuinely believe that most of our problems come from our central midfield and we are generally under pressure of our own creation, I think Hegeler has the ability to get his foot on the ball and slow everything down when we are under the Kosh, but also the nous to carry the ball and pick up the pace when necessary, defensively our central midfield do not help, both Pack and Smith have the tendency to just back off and become part of the defence rather than protecting them, we have got better at stopping teams getting into the box (even against Brentford where we were battered, I would have been dissapointed if Frankie has conceded any of their efforts on goal the 2 goals aside, the save from Sawyers was his best but he was hardly pulling worldies out of his arse all game) but Pack a smith still give opposition players too much space, also their general positioning is poor, on saturday we won the vast majority of first balls, but almost none of the second balls as the midfield are just nowhere to be seen.

I think that Hegeler could solve a lot of these problems and Pato seems best in the attacking midfield role, and with actual wingers we have an outlet when we are under pressure, and i think the personel are less likley to put us under the pressure in the first place as they may either keep the ball or at least run at the opposition.

Using that midfield away against a better side would be suicide, but with a bit of tweaking (pulling bobby back and adding in Pack for Pato) you get a 5 man midfield that still retains the outlets out wide, but also has players in the middle who can keep the ball under a bit of pressure.

This is not to say that we shouldn't look to strengthen in the middle, we absolutely should and we have been sorely remiss by not doing so considering that many of our defensive frailties have come from the Midfield rather than the defence themselves.

Good , well argued reasons / post that Spud 

The ability to keep the ball and thus not having to win it back is  a reasonable / fair / good one (And well argued) and you may be right that it's worth trying at some point

 

Id still have real,concerns away from home or in games where we are likely to be out of possession and  under the cosh for periods though !

If we are going PF to try and utilise JH initially Id prefer to see us try a narrower midfield three alongside two of MP / KS / GON / JB with two (COD / NE / JP ?) making a 4-5-1 out of possession and a 4-3-3 in possession

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Nibor said:

Yes I know there's been a trend away from 4-4-2, you could hardly miss that but LJ has decided to play it.  Honestly the role of a central midfielder is not that different between the two, not enough to question to whether a player is capable of it or not.  Hegeler played for Hertha and Nurnberg in the top flight - top 10 sides.  That league is far and away better than the Championship in quality and it's got just as much pace and physicality.  The guy is 6 ft 4, decent on the ball and has a range of passing and comes across on the pitch and off as an intelligent person.  I think the claim he can't play in a two is extremely hard to believe.

Perhaps he is a bit lacking in pace.

I am not doubting Hegeler has quality, I just think he would be best either in a central 3 or in front of the back 4. Like a 4-1-4-1 sort of formation, or maybe split a bit further into 4-1-2-3- two wide forwards/pushed high wingers and a striker begin the latter 3.

[Sir Colby-Tit]

On ‎19‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 22:34, WayOutWest said:

I don't think you can drop Wright or Baker. 

I would like to see Hegeler replacing Korey Smith. 

In that deeper midfield role in front of our back 4.

 

 It's obvious he is good with the ball at his feet. He is a calm presence and would like to see him dictate play. 

I don't think he has convinced LJ enough to play that role. 

To answer your question,  our football has suffered in terms of creativity with the loss of Hegeler but we seem more solid at the back. 

I don't think Hegeler will dislodge Baker. It will be interesting once the Flint situation is resolved. 

He best route to be in first 11 would be Korey Smith's place in my opinion. 

Stevo

Have to agree with this.

For me, Korey is a weak link. I accept he is well loved, and generally avoids criticism, but he always takes too long on the ball, takes a touch too many and invariably gives possession away, or slows down an attack.

(Tin hat on)

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Nibor said:

Yes I know there's been a trend away from 4-4-2, you could hardly miss that but LJ has decided to play it.  Honestly the role of a central midfielder is not that different between the two, not enough to question to whether a player is capable of it or not.  Hegeler played for Hertha and Nurnberg in the top flight - top 10 sides.  That league is far and away better than the Championship in quality and it's got just as much pace and physicality.  The guy is 6 ft 4, decent on the ball and has a range of passing and comes across on the pitch and off as an intelligent person.  I think the claim he can't play in a two is extremely hard to believe.

Perhaps he is a bit lacking in pace.

I am not doubting Hegeler's quality, I just think he would be best either in a central 3 or in front of the back 4. Like a 4-1-2-3 sort of formation (the three up top being 2 wingers/wide forwards and obviously a central striker).

[Nibor]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Perhaps he is a bit lacking in pace.

I am not doubting Hegeler has quality, I just think he would be best either in a central 3 or in front of the back 4. Like a 4-1-4-1 sort of formation, or maybe split a bit further into 4-1-2-3- two wide forwards/pushed high wingers and a striker begin the latter 3.

I don't disagree he might be better that way but given we're not playing that system the question ought to be, is he better than Pack or Smith in the midfield as it is now? After Saturday I'd be hard pressed to say he shouldn't have the chance! 

[Nibor]

5 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

Have to agree with this.

For me, Korey is a weak link. I accept he is well loved, and generally avoids criticism, but he always takes too long on the ball, takes a touch too many and invariably gives possession away, or slows down an attack.

(Tin hat on)

 

Last season or two he's been hit and miss and just about used up all the substantial credit he banked with fans by being exceptional in the first one. I think he's capable of more but nobody should be guaranteed a place and he needs competition. Now is the time IMO. 

[Spud55]

8 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Good , well argued reasons / post that Spud 

The ability to keep the ball and thus not having to win it back is  a fair / good one and you may be right that it's worth trying at some point

 

Id still have real,concerns away from home or in games where we are likely to be under the cosh for periods though !

If we are going PF to try and utilise JH initially Id prefer to see us try a narrower midfield three alongside two of MP / KS / GON / JB with two (COD / NE / JP ?) making a 4-5-1 out of possession and a 4-3-3 in possession

 

Yea i think that could work, I'm just trying to find a midfield that works largely in both situations, as although I don't mind it if LJ makes 2/3 changes in midfield most weeks to best fit the situation, i know many people do not like that and there are benefits to having a settled side,  I have always been a fan of the 4-5-1 as when done properly like you say it's a 4-3-3 in attacking and a 4-5-1 when defending so maybe this would work,

---------------Fielding-----------------

Pisano--Baker--Wright--Bryan

--------Hegeler---------Pack--------------

Eliason-----------------------------Pato/COD

------------------Reid/Pato---------------------

-------------------Deidhou-------------------------

I think that gives you the best of both worlds, you could start every game with that 11 and then depending on the situation you can swap sacrifice one of Hegeler or Pack of a striker and play a diamond, or you can crowd the midfield and keep the ball, but still retain outlets out wide, I would also like to see what Brownhill could do alongside Hegeler as i think he could be an exceptional box to box midfielder and replace Pack in time.

[Murraysrightplum]

3-5-2 with hegeler at the middle of the 3?

would deffo work on football manager 

[kanemochi]

On 19/08/2017 at 22:34, WayOutWest said:

I don't think you can drop Wright or Baker. 

I would like to see Hegeler replacing Korey Smith. 

In that deeper midfield role in front of our back 4.

 

 It's obvious he is good with the ball at his feet. He is a calm presence and would like to see him dictate play. 

I don't think he has convinced LJ enough to play that role. 

To answer your question,  our football has suffered in terms of creativity with the loss of Hegeler but we seem more solid at the back. 

I don't think Hegeler will dislodge Baker. It will be interesting once the Flint situation is resolved. 

He best route to be in first 11 would be Korey Smith's place in my opinion. 

Stevo

Think Hegeler replacing Smith at CDM would probably be the best option. He's gone missing in a couple of games so far. Interesting to see what team gets put out in the cup game. Could very well see Flint come back in as well.

[Garland-sweden]

16 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Ok, thanks.

[Shtanley]

If only we had a natural centreback who was comfortable in bringing the ball out from the back. Perhaps we should look at the french leagues there could be a young central defender we could buy for only a million or two. 

[cidered abroad]

On 20/08/2017 at 18:03, MarkRed! said:

LJ has basically said he can't play in a midfield 2. I would have him in the team either as CB or as a three in midfield. Don't think LJ will do the latter.

But LJ said a while ago that Magnússon can't play left back but now he's saying that he could be used there. I believe that Hegeler would do fine as a sweeper in front of the back four. But as I've said a few times lately, I wonder if we should go to 3-5-2.