MarcusX Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 4 hours ago, Tipps69 said: But they (the players) can't have it both ways, with all the riches available to them personally, there has to be some pressure from their valuations in the open market. As regards to foreign countries paying less in basic salaries to their young players, it means they have a reason to improve & prove themselves (or just move to England) to get the personal riches. Tammy Abraham rumoured to of doubled his wages after one season at Championship level to £50,000 p/w, that's just obscene for a 19 year-old. And back to Sterling, with the amount of grief he gets for being 'rubbish' & with the amount of money he 'should' have stashed away, what is his motivation for trying to prove the doubters wrong? He (and numerous other) multimillionaire U25's don't need the grief, they have more riches than the majority of us could only dream of, so why bother? So what if he doesn't win a major honour with England? He doesn't have to work to have a life, he's made that before he even got to 22 years-old! If you didn't have to do a job that you could get injured in because you'd already made more than enough money to live the rest of your life more than comfortably, would you put your body on the line if you weren't really that bothered? As Sterling appears! I don't disagree as such, just only seems to be our players that consistently fail to perform at international level. By that I don't mean because they aren't winning tournaments, but simply individuals not playing to the same level they play for their clubs. like I said, I agree it's far too much money too young for not actually achieving anything and it would kill some people's ambition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 The difference in performance levels between playing international & league football is a strange one & not one I would solely put down to Southgate, it's been happening since way before Southgate came in & many other managers have tried & failed to right that problem. One reason could be the extra pressure & scrutiny that these young players face at international level as they really do seem to have the weight of the entire country's expectations on their shoulders, even more so than in league football. The only 'youngster' who really seems to handle that pressure is Dele although his petulance & anger issues could be questioned but I'm more than happy for us to persevere with him despite this & his apparent 'lack of form' in recent games. Part of our issue at international level is that if we experiment with tactics & players selected during 'friendly' games, everyone (in the grand scheme of things) moans because they expect us to win every game but when we need these 'fringe players' or to 'mix up' our tactics during tournament play, we don't have the necessary experience available to us because we don't try out these fringe players when the opportunity offers itself. It's a kind of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' scenario. And we've tried experienced managers / coaches who should be big enough to do things their own way but who still follow the same lines of their predecessors! Why? Personally it's because of the amount of pressure that the national team are put under from the press / media! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueredsupporter Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 7 hours ago, Tipps69 said: And we've tried experienced managers / coaches who should be big enough to do things their own way but who still follow the same lines of their predecessors! Why? Southgate is trying a few things with a squad nobody rates at all but the system below them doesn't produce players of the right standard. the coaches on here point out the massive differences between England to Spain to Germany to Belgium. England are behind both on the pitch and light years behind off it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 53 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said: Southgate is trying a few things with a squad nobody rates at all but the system below them doesn't produce players of the right standard. the coaches on here point out the massive differences between England to Spain to Germany to Belgium. England are behind both on the pitch and light years behind off it. Well recent U21 & lower age group tournament results suggest that something is being done right..... But the stockpiling of 'talent' certainly isn't helping us (England) but the fact that Chalobah has taken the decision to leave Chelsea for Watford & has been included in the next full England squad is encouraging but it just feels like more needs to be done to give these 'youngsters' men's football & at a decent level. But part of that issue is also down to the 'smaller' Premier League clubs wanting to take these players on (even if only on loan) but most want / need the finished article & won't / can't risk taking someone on who may not be quite ready for the standard. And when you also take into account the amount of money & clauses that are put into these 'youngsters' loan agreements, it's no longer a risk free move that benefits the club loaning the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueredsupporter Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 16 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: Well recent U21 & lower age group tournament results suggest that something is being done right..... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/06/27/england-u21-vs-germany-u21-european-championship-2017-live-score/ "but a basic lack of technique, control and composure left them looking like a three star Pro Evo team vs a five star one." Have a read. It was truly dismal how poor Englands players looked technically. all the semi finalists looked mile better on the ball kept it while England launched it!! the other lower age groups while winning looked similar. it is not good enough and only goes so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 Said it before and still think so. More young players should try their hand abroad. In the other 3 or 4 big Leagues in Europe, more of a international and European club competition type style. Plus possibility of UCL or even Europa League that they may not get here. Wilshere...would have learnt, at least in theory, a lot more at Roma/Milan than Bournemouth tbh. Not knocking Bournemouth, they are one of the more enterprising sides in this country but he should have taken a chance tbh when they were rumoured as in for him. @Tipps69 Isn't that the same with all big nations though? The pressure thing- like there's no expectation on Argentine, French, German, Spanish players. From a slightly different level, Belgian. To an extent also, although less currently Italian, Portugese. Also in the past I rather suspect the Dutch had high expectations... In all of those cases, I very much doubt their media give them an easy ride. Hear it often about our media pressure, and never truly convinced by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 42 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/06/27/england-u21-vs-germany-u21-european-championship-2017-live-score/ "but a basic lack of technique, control and composure left them looking like a three star Pro Evo team vs a five star one." Have a read. It was truly dismal how poor Englands players looked technically. all the semi finalists looked mile better on the ball kept it while England launched it!! the other lower age groups while winning looked similar. it is not good enough and only goes so far. But that is a long standing issue with the coaching of players from a young age, we have spent decades of trying to instill a winning mentality on our players, even from the age of 7 / 8, we played matches on pitches that were too big for the age group & as such the players had to kick it as far as they could in the hope of getting the ball close enough to the oppositions goal to score & win whereas other nations have instilled the basic components of football (pass, control, movement & technique) into their youngsters. The FA have tried to develop things but only fairly recently (on the back of Wenger showing us the way) & how many times over those 20 years or so have I heard Dad's (with very limited knowledge of coaching football) complaining that the new training methods are a waste of time or the 'new football' is a waste of time because 'little Billy' (through his Dad) wants to be winning 20-0 at all costs & training their super star player 'the basics' was a waste of time because 'little Billy' was already a world beater at 7 years-old in his Dad's eyes. When in reality 'little Billy' couldn't control or pass a ball 'properly'!! Even when I used to coach limited men's teams (in the grand scheme of things), the players thought they were too good to be coached how to control or pass a ball yet when they played on a Saturday or Sunday it was amazing how many times the teams 'best player' miscontrolled a ball or misplaced a pass but they were 'too good' to be coached & I'm only talking local league football but this has been an ongoing issue for many many years. When I was young (I'm 45 now), training consisted of playing a full match against your teammates on a full sized pitch, no technical training & that was what we as players & parents who brought their kids along expected! Us to run around aimlessly for an hour just playing football, in theory we could of organised our own teams by just arranging to meet school mates over the local fields or park with one ball. The 'new' philosophy is now being more accepted but you still get the moaning from parents if their team hasn't won despite there being improvements in performance from both a team & individual aspect! 55 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Said it before and still think so. More young players should try their hand abroad. In the other 3 or 4 big Leagues in Europe, more of a international and European club competition type style. Plus possibility of UCL or even Europa League that they may not get here. Wilshere...would have learnt, at least in theory, a lot more at Roma/Milan than Bournemouth tbh. Not knocking Bournemouth, they are one of the more enterprising sides in this country but he should have taken a chance tbh when they were rumoured as in for him. @Tipps69 Isn't that the same with all big nations though? The pressure thing- like there's no expectation on Argentine, French, German, Spanish players. From a slightly different level, Belgian. To an extent also, although less currently Italian, Portugese. Also in the past I rather suspect the Dutch had high expectations... In all of those cases, I very much doubt their media give them an easy ride. Hear it often about our media pressure, and never truly convinced by it. The English media are renowned to be extra harsh (compared to other countries), how many times has the England top job become available & we've struggled to get any real quality applicants or we've been underwhelmed by those linked with the job & then when we do give it to someone with a track record & they fail to win their first friendly or under-perform at a tournament, it's the manager that should be gone after a relatively short time in charge. We are renowned for not allowing these coaches the opportunity to implement their philosophies & styles of play & they've had to work with the same players that have failed at international level for years previously but it's the managers fault, not the multimillionaire 22 year-old. It all goes back to the blame culture, it's rarely my fault because I can blame someone else (in theory). How many tournaments during the 90's / 00's did the media expect England to win? I'd suggest it was everyone we entered & it's only been the last couple of tournaments that the general public have actually had a reality check & accepted that we aren't favourites to win any of the recent tournaments. Look at the amount of unrest at Bristol City over the last year or so, there was a noisy amount of people that wanted LJ out because he hadn't worked miracles with group of players that were seen as limited by the majority of this division after just a year in charge. It would be great if success could be had in a year but it's rarely the case & managers / coaches require longer to be able to implement their philosophies on any group of players. It takes time & there are 91 other league clubs that all set out a month or so ago with the hope of winning their division but in reality less than half of those teams actually stand a realistic chance of winning their division & that leaves a fair few teams as underperforming. We are heading in the right direction (in my opinion) in terms of both Bristol City & England but there is still a lot of room for improvement too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 59 minutes ago, Tipps69 said: The English media are renowned to be extra harsh (compared to other countries), how many times has the England top job become available & we've struggled to get any real quality applicants or we've been underwhelmed by those linked with the job & then when we do give it to someone with a track record & they fail to win their first friendly or under-perform at a tournament, it's the manager that should be gone after a relatively short time in charge. We are renowned for not allowing these coaches the opportunity to implement their philosophies & styles of play & they've had to work with the same players that have failed at international level for years previously but it's the managers fault, not the multimillionaire 22 year-old. It all goes back to the blame culture, it's rarely my fault because I can blame someone else (in theory). How many tournaments during the 90's / 00's did the media expect England to win? I'd suggest it was everyone we entered & it's only been the last couple of tournaments that the general public have actually had a reality check & accepted that we aren't favourites to win any of the recent tournaments. Look at the amount of unrest at Bristol City over the last year or so, there was a noisy amount of people that wanted LJ out because he hadn't worked miracles with group of players that were seen as limited by the majority of this division after just a year in charge. It would be great if success could be had in a year but it's rarely the case & managers / coaches require longer to be able to implement their philosophies on any group of players. It takes time & there are 91 other league clubs that all set out a month or so ago with the hope of winning their division but in reality less than half of those teams actually stand a realistic chance of winning their division & that leaves a fair few teams as underperforming. We are heading in the right direction (in my opinion) in terms of both Bristol City & England but there is still a lot of room for improvement too! Am on the fence about it...yes the media thing with the manager can play a part, agree with the blame culture, not my fault necessarily plays a part. Agreed, we were deemed to be favourites which didn't help. Would argue we were potential contenders in several but that's it...contenders, one of several maybe more. I think the LJ thing was partly because we had plummeted so quick. I mean we were halfway towards safety (by usual maths standards), 24 points from 15 games and AG was becoming a bit of a fortress. If we had started stodgy, had a long winless run with a lot of draws say and then a decent finish then people would have been much less discontented. Agree about expectations though, they can get overboard- I was a bit guilty going into November last year with the aforementioned start to the season. However with a plummet like that, nobody at any club will he happy. Should have at least been relatively comfortable midtable realistically with a start like that! Still it is pretty high elsewhere. Absolutely it is...take Italy for example. Tactics a huge discussion of conversation there, papers dedicated to football, micro-analysis of tactics and performance. Agreed on this. It all takes time, well in general- you get the odd case but yes it basically takes time. This is in short supply now more than ever. Agreed on this. Certainly agree with the first half of your post very much so about technical training, win at all costs mentality, the lack of 'excellent' players who struggle with basic technique being a prime example. Back to the media point though: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/19/france-euro-2016-lequipe-boycott-paul-pogba Sure @spudski who knows a fair bit more about Italian football than me would concur about media pressure on football there? Spain definitely since well since they delivered but also for varied tournaments subsequent. Brazil...not only expected to win but expected to live up to amazing footballers of the past. Fairly sure they have sacked managers for coming 2nd in WC before! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3941082/Lionel-Messi-leads-Argentina-press-conference-protest-entire-squad-team-mate-Ezequiel-Lavezzi.html Cannot find specific examples for Germany yet. http://www.soccerladuma.co.za/news/articles/international/categories/world-news/argentine-media-blame-lionel-messi-once-again/279050 Maybe it's different with Belgium, Portugal and in past Netherlands because they are geographically smaller countries so less pressure, expectation. I don't know but I reckon their 'golden generations' plus Holland's reputation will have yielded some pressure. To my mind, for a group of countries it is intense and yeah not great on the players, and the management. Justified or otherwise, it just comes with the territory really for big footballing national teams. I put the 2nd one as Messi- at the worst the second best player of this generation, seemed to be getting a slating in their media just recently. Incidentally, a quck search would suggest managers- Jogi Low of Germany, especially Luis Aragones and others just block out the media...just do it their own way- even if it's the wrong track! Presumably players do what they can in these places to block it also. It's not really an excuse my think, but what could be good moving forward is helping our players/managers to deal with it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipps69 Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Am on the fence about it...yes the media thing with the manager can play a part, agree with the blame culture, not my fault necessarily plays a part. Agreed, we were deemed to be favourites which didn't help. Would argue we were potential contenders in several but that's it...contenders, one of several maybe more. I think the LJ thing was partly because we had plummeted so quick. I mean we were halfway towards safety (by usual maths standards), 24 points from 15 games and AG was becoming a bit of a fortress. If we had started stodgy, had a long winless run with a lot of draws say and then a decent finish then people would have been much less discontented. Agree about expectations though, they can get overboard- I was a bit guilty going into November last year with the aforementioned start to the season. However with a plummet like that, nobody at any club will he happy. Should have at least been relatively comfortable midtable realistically with a start like that! Still it is pretty high elsewhere. Absolutely it is...take Italy for example. Tactics a huge discussion of conversation there, papers dedicated to football, micro-analysis of tactics and performance. Agreed on this. It all takes time, well in general- you get the odd case but yes it basically takes time. This is in short supply now more than ever. Agreed on this. Certainly agree with the first half of your post very much so about technical training, win at all costs mentality, the lack of 'excellent' players who struggle with basic technique being a prime example. Back to the media point though: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/19/france-euro-2016-lequipe-boycott-paul-pogba Sure @spudski who knows a fair bit more about Italian football than me would concur about media pressure on football there? Spain definitely since well since they delivered but also for varied tournaments subsequent. Brazil...not only expected to win but expected to live up to amazing footballers of the past. Fairly sure they have sacked managers for coming 2nd in WC before! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3941082/Lionel-Messi-leads-Argentina-press-conference-protest-entire-squad-team-mate-Ezequiel-Lavezzi.html Cannot find specific examples for Germany yet. http://www.soccerladuma.co.za/news/articles/international/categories/world-news/argentine-media-blame-lionel-messi-once-again/279050 Maybe it's different with Belgium, Portugal and in past Netherlands because they are geographically smaller countries so less pressure, expectation. I don't know but I reckon their 'golden generations' plus Holland's reputation will have yielded some pressure. To my mind, for a group of countries it is intense and yeah not great on the players, and the management. Justified or otherwise, it just comes with the territory really for big footballing national teams. I put the 2nd one as Messi- at the worst the second best player of this generation, seemed to be getting a slating in their media just recently. Incidentally, a quck search would suggest managers- Jogi Low of Germany, especially Luis Aragones and others just block out the media...just do it their own way- even if it's the wrong track! Presumably players do what they can in these places to block it also. It's not really an excuse my think, but what could be good moving forward is helping our players/managers to deal with it better. Italy have built their teams around solid defences, very rarely do you see high scoring games in Italy or with the national team & that is because they tend to set-up to not concede & to not get beat & all heads towards dire goalless draws. And part of that is down to the pressure from their media because a defeat is taken like they've just lost a family member. Portugal & Wales to extent have taken to the Italian style of play knowing that CR7 & Bale can possibly do something to win them the game on the break as they have very little else in regards to decent attacking players but with 10 men behind the ball they are less likely to concede themselves & may score on the break or from a dead ball situation. But that style of football is dire & very boring (again in my opinion) but it is what league sides are now starting to employ as the riches are so great & if you can prevent yourself conceding a goal, you're guaranteed at least a point, Mourinho has spent a fair while playing like this despite the riches he has been given to bring in players at various clubs. It's that win at all costs philosophy. It's just that some prefer to be entertained but you can rest assured that if City ever made it The Premier League then the majority of our fans mindsets would change as we would settle for not losing (or at least not getting hammered every game). And all this has taken the entertainment side of the sport away because it is now such a cutthroat business with such vast sums of money available (even for failure at the highest level). Teams go through spells, a new football philosophy comes into the game (or an old one) & all of a sudden there is success to be had, the Brazilian sides with flare, the Germany sides of economic excellence, the French & Spanish sides of technical excellence & free flowing brilliance & the Italian sides with passion & determination. Teams playing with rigid 4-4-2 formations who then have to adapt to the modern way (at the time) of 3-4-3 or 4-5-1 or 3-5-2 or 4-2-3-1 or the recent Spanish way of 4-6-0 but it then tends to come back to finding an old system that works in the new football world & that manager is either seen as a genius or a dinosaur!! If England or City set-up to not lose games (with no real intent on winning either) people would complain about the style of the performances but those same people would be the same ones complaining if we attacked games & lost! There simply is no pleasing some people & it's that need to appease the noisy patrons that tends to take priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Tipps69 said: But that is a long standing issue with the coaching of players from a young age, we have spent decades of trying to instill a winning mentality on our players, even from the age of 7 / 8, we played matches on pitches that were too big for the age group & as such the players had to kick it as far as they could in the hope of getting the ball close enough to the oppositions goal to score & win whereas other nations have instilled the basic components of football (pass, control, movement & technique) into their youngsters. The FA have tried to develop things but only fairly recently (on the back of Wenger showing us the way) & how many times over those 20 years or so have I heard Dad's (with very limited knowledge of coaching football) complaining that the new training methods are a waste of time or the 'new football' is a waste of time because 'little Billy' (through his Dad) wants to be winning 20-0 at all costs & training their super star player 'the basics' was a waste of time because 'little Billy' was already a world beater at 7 years-old in his Dad's eyes. When in reality 'little Billy' couldn't control or pass a ball 'properly'!! Even when I used to coach limited men's teams (in the grand scheme of things), the players thought they were too good to be coached how to control or pass a ball yet when they played on a Saturday or Sunday it was amazing how many times the teams 'best player' miscontrolled a ball or misplaced a pass but they were 'too good' to be coached & I'm only talking local league football but this has been an ongoing issue for many many years. When I was young (I'm 45 now), training consisted of playing a full match against your teammates on a full sized pitch, no technical training & that was what we as players & parents who brought their kids along expected! Us to run around aimlessly for an hour just playing football, in theory we could of organised our own teams by just arranging to meet school mates over the local fields or park with one ball. The 'new' philosophy is now being more accepted but you still get the moaning from parents if their team hasn't won despite there being improvements in performance from both a team & individual aspect! The English media are renowned to be extra harsh (compared to other countries), how many times has the England top job become available & we've struggled to get any real quality applicants or we've been underwhelmed by those linked with the job & then when we do give it to someone with a track record & they fail to win their first friendly or under-perform at a tournament, it's the manager that should be gone after a relatively short time in charge. We are renowned for not allowing these coaches the opportunity to implement their philosophies & styles of play & they've had to work with the same players that have failed at international level for years previously but it's the managers fault, not the multimillionaire 22 year-old. It all goes back to the blame culture, it's rarely my fault because I can blame someone else (in theory). How many tournaments during the 90's / 00's did the media expect England to win? I'd suggest it was everyone we entered & it's only been the last couple of tournaments that the general public have actually had a reality check & accepted that we aren't favourites to win any of the recent tournaments. I do not think changing philosophy can be attributed to Arsene Wenger alone. Interestingly there is a component of FA psychology that focuses on scenarios like little Bill. Little Billy at seven who is playing football because its fun , he gets to run around, is with Mates, gets muddy and around 17th out of twenty it was found because they get to win = Not that important. The main Bristol League the HML is non competitive till 12. Well done. A not so well done is that many teams go down the road of teams of big, strong, faster and age effect to win at all costs ... The changing philosophy is not followed and enforced by structure and education. And back to Southgate ... . He cannot change the lack of opportunity players get up the development scale and he cannot change the limitations in technical ability being created from early ages up. He cannot change this malaise barely to any degree. Things are changing for the better, but the actual structure of the EPL dominates everything and until that status quo is radically altered the FA's abilty to affect change will always be limited. The change being implemented by the FA in coaching alone is not far reaching enough, and will not lead to England being radically better v more advanced football nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 I would agree with a lot of that! I don't think 4-4-2 the original style will return to prominence at a high or sustained level though personally. Italy are a funny one- look at some of the players they had, Del Piero, Baggio, fantastic. The likes of Pirlo, supreme passer, I actually remember the 2006 side being really rather good, excellent balance to it- had Totti and occasionally Del Piero providing magic, Toni was a big unit up top, Zambrotta and Grosso excellent full backs defensively but also quite capable of attacking the opposition. Gattuso a bit of a destroyer, Cameronaise out wide had skill, Perrotta was hard working! Italy national team a weird amalgamation of styles really...in recent times anyway. Most of their players technically proficent too, with the obvious exception of Gattuso and Matterazzi, Toni nothing special either. Seem to recall in Euro 2012 again they had some excellent play but mixed it. They can counter but have/had some great passers and technical players also. Germany-Italy semi in 06 was truly excellent. Still, of the current wave- I follow Serie A a decent amount, Spalletti, Sarri, Allegri to some extent, Montella, in fact a fair few managers in Serie A can hardly be called dull, defensive. Conte and Ancelotti don't promote dull defensive play too. Lippi and Saachi- both now retired but two of the modern greats, both had a positive approach to the game. I've always seen Italy as a weird mix- in modern times anyway- of the German defensive skill, some- not a huge amount but some- of the Latin passing style. Germany are now a superb technical side too, so many great young players- now a high scoring, not entirely defensively secure side capable of great football- be it through possession dominance or counterattacking. Actually Portugal have a possible second golden generation on the way, again attacking, passing players. Wales time will tell but they do seem quite Bale reliant. Putting aside specific nations, I don't disagree about the modern money, pressure stakes which encourages some negative formations, setups. Fear can definitely overtake positivity and having a proper crack at the game. The higher you go, the more tactically micromanaged the game, the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 On 12/09/2017 at 12:43, Mr Popodopolous said: Am on the fence about it...yes the media thing with the manager can play a part, agree with the blame culture, not my fault necessarily plays a part. Agreed, we were deemed to be favourites which didn't help. Would argue we were potential contenders in several but that's it...contenders, one of several maybe more. I think the LJ thing was partly because we had plummeted so quick. I mean we were halfway towards safety (by usual maths standards), 24 points from 15 games and AG was becoming a bit of a fortress. If we had started stodgy, had a long winless run with a lot of draws say and then a decent finish then people would have been much less discontented. Agree about expectations though, they can get overboard- I was a bit guilty going into November last year with the aforementioned start to the season. However with a plummet like that, nobody at any club will he happy. Should have at least been relatively comfortable midtable realistically with a start like that! Still it is pretty high elsewhere. Absolutely it is...take Italy for example. Tactics a huge discussion of conversation there, papers dedicated to football, micro-analysis of tactics and performance. Agreed on this. It all takes time, well in general- you get the odd case but yes it basically takes time. This is in short supply now more than ever. Agreed on this. Certainly agree with the first half of your post very much so about technical training, win at all costs mentality, the lack of 'excellent' players who struggle with basic technique being a prime example. Back to the media point though: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/19/france-euro-2016-lequipe-boycott-paul-pogba Sure @spudski who knows a fair bit more about Italian football than me would concur about media pressure on football there? Spain definitely since well since they delivered but also for varied tournaments subsequent. Brazil...not only expected to win but expected to live up to amazing footballers of the past. Fairly sure they have sacked managers for coming 2nd in WC before! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3941082/Lionel-Messi-leads-Argentina-press-conference-protest-entire-squad-team-mate-Ezequiel-Lavezzi.html Cannot find specific examples for Germany yet. http://www.soccerladuma.co.za/news/articles/international/categories/world-news/argentine-media-blame-lionel-messi-once-again/279050 Maybe it's different with Belgium, Portugal and in past Netherlands because they are geographically smaller countries so less pressure, expectation. I don't know but I reckon their 'golden generations' plus Holland's reputation will have yielded some pressure. To my mind, for a group of countries it is intense and yeah not great on the players, and the management. Justified or otherwise, it just comes with the territory really for big footballing national teams. I put the 2nd one as Messi- at the worst the second best player of this generation, seemed to be getting a slating in their media just recently. Incidentally, a quck search would suggest managers- Jogi Low of Germany, especially Luis Aragones and others just block out the media...just do it their own way- even if it's the wrong track! Presumably players do what they can in these places to block it also. It's not really an excuse my think, but what could be good moving forward is helping our players/managers to deal with it better. http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/enterprise-neuer160525/bayern-munich-manuel-neuer-changing-means-goalie There is a little here about what the Germans call nervenstarke/neverstake. It means strength of nerves and deals with how to focus and perform under pressure. Pressure is micromanaged. Prior, during and after matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 15, 2017 Report Share Posted September 15, 2017 20 hours ago, Cowshed said: http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/enterprise-neuer160525/bayern-munich-manuel-neuer-changing-means-goalie There is a little here about what the Germans call nervenstarke/neverstake. It means strength of nerves and deals with how to focus and perform under pressure. Pressure is micromanaged. Prior, during and after matches. Good read. I certainly think other nations handle the pressure- be it of fans, media or merely having a well renowned group of players, all 3 cross over- than we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 16, 2017 Report Share Posted September 16, 2017 From a very simplistic point of view, I think our players haven't developed like their foreign counterparts, who have flooded the English game. These players have raised the level of our club sides and our players are made to look better at club level than when they only have their fellow countryman to play alongside. Even some of our better players like Gerrard in recent times (subject to your own opinion) had players alongside him like Mascerano, Alonso, and Torres. Perhaps this gave his win abilities the chance to shine through at club level, where he took games by the scruff of its neck. Did he have many (if any) barnstorming performances for England playing with lesser players than the 3 I quote above? I think this is hampered by the fascination of picking players from the top sides in the Prem, therefore many of the selected players are captured in the above scenario. In recent(ish) times it has been refreshing to see a player from unfashionable clubs get a chance, and who play better with better players. Examples that jump out for me are Chris Powell (Charlton LB), who got selected under Sven, who was seen as a very ordinary club LB, but looked a much better player at International level. Trevor Sinclair (QPR) starting games in Japan WC, because Sven thought he was the best winger to fit his system, rather than just picking the best players. It is a co-incidence that both my examples were under Sven, because he also served up some inept performances too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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