This is it today.

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

My biggest concern is I dont fully trust them to bring in the right players going forward. We have made a couple of good signings...but by and large, weve wasted an awful lot of money in the last 2 years

"Wasted an awful lot of money"

On who?       

[Alessandro]

2 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

And some of us also understand: we just happen to believe the project is flawed

What, in your opinion, is flawed in the plan?

How would you suggest we go about it, if you were in charge?

Lots of people are doing a very good job of spending someone else's money on this thread.

The ‘all in on red’ attitude to chase promotion and parachute payments just doesn’t sit well with me at all, even though I see where it comes from. 

Such a risk. I wrote about Cardiff the other day, one season in the premier league and despite that and the beloved parachute payments they still have £100m worth of debt. There’s no guarantee.

People talk as if the solution is all so simple. Just go spend some big money and go pay the top wages. We were 2nd, spend and we’ll stay there. It’s guaranteed then, isn’t it?? Villa? Wednesday? Derby?

I can’t see the future, but let me make a little prediction - several clubs in this division have done this and are gambling hard on promotion - Derby, Villa, Fulham, even Boro. All have massive wage bills vs. turnover. Cardiff also end their parachute payments this summer. Only one of those will go up. These clubs could end up in serious financial trouble ala Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland, Hull - going forwards. Dropping just to re build all over again. Do you think Bolton fans thought they’d drop to league one when they were in Europe? Do you think Hull fans thought they’d be in a relegation scrap for league 1 when they came down with parachute payments and cash in the bank?

We’ve already done the splash the cash route to a certain extent and it didn’t work. It took us 10 years to build back to this point and people want us to go and make the same mistake again?! Interestingly it’s fans like you, long term fans, who should have a memory for the mistakes of the past.

 

[Robbored]

Excellent post Alessandro. 

Unfortunately it'll be lost on some posters on here.

[Port Said Red]

5 hours ago, Barney red said:

I think the season could be decided for us today, lose or draw against Burton with there  horrible home record and a probable win for boro would leave a gap and shatter our confidence.

The performance at Preston was not a bad one just showed flaws in both boxes.We must be more ruthless.

I think we will win today and it may spark a good run, however Lj has a very interesting team selection to make,can see him going for something new.

Prediction city win 3 1  

Any views on team for today?

I wouldn't give up or expect the team to give up if we were in a relegation struggle and we could still get too safety mathematically. I will not give up on the playoffs or expect the team to give up as long as it is mathematically possible. 

There is still a 5th of the season to go.

[Wanderingred]

I don't usually feel depressed and negative so early on a Saturday (that usually starts at about 3:05pm) but this thread has really done it for me. Jesus Christ guys, let's at least wait until after the game.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

What, in your opinion, is flawed in the plan?

How would you suggest we go about it, if you were in charge?

Lots of people are doing a very good job of spending someone else's money on this thread.

The ‘all in on red’ attitude to chase promotion and parachute payments just doesn’t sit well with me at all, even though I see where it comes from. 

Such a risk. I wrote about Cardiff the other day, one season in the premier league and despite that and the beloved parachute payments they still have £100m worth of debt. There’s no guarantee.

People talk as if the solution is all so simple. Just go spend some big money and go pay the top wages. We were 2nd, spend and we’ll stay there. It’s guaranteed then, isn’t it?? Villa? Wednesday? Derby?

I can’t see the future, but let me make a little prediction - several clubs in this division have done this and are gambling hard on promotion - Derby, Villa, Fulham, even Boro. All have massive wage bills vs. turnover. Cardiff also end their parachute payments this summer. Only one of those will go up. These clubs could end up in serious financial trouble ala Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland, Hull - going forwards. Dropping just to re build all over again. Do you think Bolton fans thought they’d drop to league one when they were in Europe? Do you think Hull fans thought they’d be in a relegation scrap for league 1 when they came down with parachute payments and cash in the bank?

We’ve already done the splash the cash route to a certain extent and it didn’t work. It took us 10 years to build back to this point and people want us to go and make the same mistake again?! Interestingly it’s fans like you, long term fans, who should have a memory for the mistakes of the past.

 

Nice post.  Kinda why I did my Transfer Window thread, there was an undertone.  Assuming Wolves go up, Cardiff, Villa, Derby and Boro gave all splashed a lot of money, whether in transfer fees, signing on fees, loan fees, and / or wages.  At most two of them can go up, if Fulham, ourselves or one of the others gatecrash.the promo party, the only one. So 4 teams have spent money to ‘guarantee’ promotion.  I’m glad we haven’t dived in and tried to buy our way in.  Plus imagine getting into a bidding war with Villa over Grabban for example.

[mozo]

Agree with original post. People who say ' nothing is decided today' are ignoring some truths of football: momentum is a strong force, confidence must be high for success, and closing a gap without these two in play is impossible.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

What, in your opinion, is flawed in the plan?

How would you suggest we go about it, if you were in charge?

Lots of people are doing a very good job of spending someone else's money on this thread.

The ‘all in on red’ attitude to chase promotion and parachute payments just doesn’t sit well with me at all, even though I see where it comes from. 

Such a risk. I wrote about Cardiff the other day, one season in the premier league and despite that and the beloved parachute payments they still have £100m worth of debt. There’s no guarantee.

People talk as if the solution is all so simple. Just go spend some big money and go pay the top wages. We were 2nd, spend and we’ll stay there. It’s guaranteed then, isn’t it?? Villa? Wednesday? Derby?

I can’t see the future, but let me make a little prediction - several clubs in this division have done this and are gambling hard on promotion - Derby, Villa, Fulham, even Boro. All have massive wage bills vs. turnover. Cardiff also end their parachute payments this summer. Only one of those will go up. These clubs could end up in serious financial trouble ala Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland, Hull - going forwards. Dropping just to re build all over again. Do you think Bolton fans thought they’d drop to league one when they were in Europe? Do you think Hull fans thought they’d be in a relegation scrap for league 1 when they came down with parachute payments and cash in the bank?

We’ve already done the splash the cash route to a certain extent and it didn’t work. It took us 10 years to build back to this point and people want us to go and make the same mistake again?! Interestingly it’s fans like you, long term fans, who should have a memory for the mistakes of the past.

 

It's about spending money wisely not chucking it about .

Whilst I understand that we shouldn't put the club's future in jeopardy I also fear that this could happen if we don't invest in the wages for top players.

Footballers talk , how much is Freeman earning at QPR ? Or Ayling at Leeds ?  I doubt it's less than their former team mates. 

If you're not advancing in sport then you're going backwards and this is the danger.

My gut feeling is that the club are over cautious and have admitted to not ' specifically targeting promotion ' .

What message does that send out ?

 

[Alessandro]

29 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

It's about spending money wisely not chucking it about .

Whilst I understand that we shouldn't put the club's future in jeopardy I also fear that this could happen if we don't invest in the wages for top players.

Footballers talk , how much is Freeman earning at QPR ? Or Ayling at Leeds ?  I doubt it's less than their former team mates. 

If you're not advancing in sport then you're going backwards and this is the danger.

My gut feeling is that the club are over cautious and have admitted to not ' specifically targeting promotion ' .

What message does that send out ?

 

My opinion is we are, absolutely advancing. We are going forwards on and off the pitch. That’s seen with the improved league and cup performances and positions, the ‘value’ of our squad, the stadium, the pathway to developing players, the planned training facilities, the increased revenue on both match days and non match days, the highest average attendances for years. All big steps forward. The messages being sent out from the club are positive ones. 

Ultimately promotion is the goal, but the time scale is up in the air. We know they’ve tried to ‘fast track’ it, but I’m sure promotion this season was, privately, not expected. That is to say, if we go up, fantastic, but we still stick to the same plan that got us here and adhere to the budgets set this season and not gamble on it in January.

We may well lose a few players in the summer, but that money reinvested, say £10m, could add 50% more to our wage bill for a year for example. I think that’s what you’ll see us doing more of, and that’s one way we will start paying more wages.

I would also hazard a guess that if we find ourselves in the same position as last Christmas again in 2 or 3 seasons time, the board might act differently and spend more to get us over the line. This year it didn’t seem prudent. That is to say in the very near future we may more directly aim for promotion, as you say.

I also don’t neccessarly believe either it is getting harder to go up without parachute payments - Burnley, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Brighton all recently show that.    

[marksy]

5 hours ago, Robbored said:

No they did I not royally **** up.

LJ and MA adhered to SLs strategy/philosophy so if you want to point the finger, blame SL himself.

Blame Lansdown? What a ****t you are!

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, marksy said:

Blame Lansdown? What a ****t you are!

Missing the point Marksy?

Try understanding the post before you embarrass yourself with comments like that 

[Ivorguy]

2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

What, in your opinion, is flawed in the plan?

How would you suggest we go about it, if you were in charge?

Lots of people are doing a very good job of spending someone else's money on this thread.

The ‘all in on red’ attitude to chase promotion and parachute payments just doesn’t sit well with me at all, even though I see where it comes from. 

Such a risk. I wrote about Cardiff the other day, one season in the premier league and despite that and the beloved parachute payments they still have £100m worth of debt. There’s no guarantee.

People talk as if the solution is all so simple. Just go spend some big money and go pay the top wages. We were 2nd, spend and we’ll stay there. It’s guaranteed then, isn’t it?? Villa? Wednesday? Derby?

I can’t see the future, but let me make a little prediction - several clubs in this division have done this and are gambling hard on promotion - Derby, Villa, Fulham, even Boro. All have massive wage bills vs. turnover. Cardiff also end their parachute payments this summer. Only one of those will go up. These clubs could end up in serious financial trouble ala Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland, Hull - going forwards. Dropping just to re build all over again. Do you think Bolton fans thought they’d drop to league one when they were in Europe? Do you think Hull fans thought they’d be in a relegation scrap for league 1 when they came down with parachute payments and cash in the bank?

We’ve already done the splash the cash route to a certain extent and it didn’t work. It took us 10 years to build back to this point and people want us to go and make the same mistake again?! Interestingly it’s fans like you, long term fans, who should have a memory for the mistakes of the past.

 

When the Lansdowns leave, what happens to City then?

According to the Project we will be self supporting. Yet after years of SL we don't seem to have made much progress on this.  And does he mean City will be self supporting in the sense of not only financing themselves but all the other parts of BS as well?

Sorry I don't see such a plan as viable, especially given that the capacity of Ashton Gate is now lower than in the middle of the last century - way below what it would need to be to sustain European football, or even stable Top league football.

If this doesn't work then we would be looking for a new owner.  Bristol isn't Barcelona which draws on its political basis as leading club in Catalonia.  See Sid Lowe's book, 'Fear and Loathing in La Liga'. We have no such hinterland to draw from as history has clearly taught us.  Thus without another Bristolian to take over the whole bang shoot of BS I think City are in trouble, and there is of course the ground ownership question in any split up of BS.

 

As for more mundane issues there are questions raised recently in terms of the independence of the City Board even to propose their own price structure for season tickets.

The first thing I would do, if I bought into the whole BS pr thing, would be to democratise the City Board with local council and fan representation (taking into account disability and other like issues) and ensure that The Board had a clear remit over subjects like ticket pricing.

If I was not buying into BS I would seek wider investment in Bristol City FC to take us forward

 

[Alessandro]

29 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

When the Lansdowns leave, what happens to City then?

According to the Project we will be self supporting. Yet after years of SL we don't seem to have made much progress on this.  And does he mean City will be self supporting in the sense of not only financing themselves but all the other parts of BS as well?

Sorry I don't see such a plan as viable, especially given that the capacity of Ashton Gate is now lower than in the middle of the last century - way below what it would need to be to sustain European football, or even stable Top league football.

If this doesn't work then we would be looking for a new owner.  Bristol isn't Barcelona which draws on its political basis as leading club in Catalonia.  See Sid Lowe's book, 'Fear and Loathing in La Liga'. We have no such hinterland to draw from as history has clearly taught us.  Thus without another Bristolian to take over the whole bang shoot of BS I think City are in trouble, and there is of course the ground ownership question in any split up of BS.

 

As for more mundane issues there are questions raised recently in terms of the independence of the City Board even to propose their own price structure for season tickets.

The first thing I would do, if I bought into the whole BS pr thing, would be to democratise the City Board with local council and fan representation (taking into account disability and other like issues) and ensure that The Board had a clear remit over subjects like ticket pricing.

If I was not buying into BS I would seek wider investment in Bristol City FC to take us forward

 

So basically you think we need new owners, but then you contradict your own point by questioning who we could get instead? I doubt very much we’ll find a richer ‘local’ owner than SL. Or even a local consortium. So if (big if, which I’ll talk more about in a bit) the Lansdowns leave, it’s very likely to be a foreign owner. Do you think you’ll get more accountability then? More financial prudence? I’ve lost count how many times on OTIB I’ve talked about Tan, Cellino, the Venky’s, the Allam’s, I’m not doing it all again, but those names should make my point.

Another of your points - the ground. Well firstly smaller, or equivilant sized grounds than ours have sustained premier league football. Stoke, Bournemouth, Burnley, Watford, Huddersfield to name a few. Again, short memories, but the club tried to move the ground and held back by a short sighted local council. So we’ve been there and done that, so you think we should move out of the city centre in order to have a stadium good enough to sustain European football. That’ll go down well I’m sure.

So with these points in mind, you say that the planning for a more self sustained running of the club is flawed, sorry I’m really struggling to see you suggest a viable alternative? Throwing money at it? Sorry, where is that money coming from?? Magic money tree?? Because as I’ve outlined above, if we go down the route, it will be money from a foreign owner, with the potential to be drinking from a poisoned chalice. 

So we don’t have an option but attempt to be more self sustainable, right? 

Perhaps the Burnley and Bournemouth route. Invest and stick by a young manager, invest in developing players. Get things in place behind the scenes, then invest more on the first team. Hang on, that plan sounds familiar......

So back to Lansdown. Generally I don’t share your cynicism. Firstly, the family is not going anywhere. They’ve invested millions into not just BCFC but Bristol Sport in general, Jon is being lined up to take on an increasingly prominent role as SL does less. They’ll be here for decades to come IMO.

It’s also been said time and time again, each arm of Bristol Sport is independent to each other. There is no evidence to say that City are in anyway propping up other areas of BS. Show me some and I’ll listen, for now, cynisim and gutfeelings on that subject are completely unfounded speculation. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but Bristol Sport doesn’t own Ashton Gate. The rugby is effectively a ‘tenant’ so don’t worry about that. Finally SL is, or has publicly stated that he is, open to wider investment in BCFC, so he’s already thought of that too.

[Ivorguy]

12 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

So basically you think we need new owners, but then you contradict your own point by questioning who we could get instead? I doubt very much we’ll find a richer ‘local’ owner than SL. Or even a local consortium. So if (big if, which I’ll talk more about in a bit) the Lansdowns leave, it’s very likely to be a foreign owner. Do you think you’ll get more accountability then? More financial prudence? I’ve lost count how many times on OTIB I’ve talked about Tan, Cellino, the Venky’s, the Allam’s, I’m not doing it all again, but those names should make my point.

Another of your points - the ground. Well firstly smaller, or equivilant sized grounds than ours have sustained premier league football. Stoke, Bournemouth, Burnley, Watford, Huddersfield to name a few. Again, short memories, but the club tried to move the ground and held back by a short sighted local council. So we’ve been there and done that, so you think we should move out of the city centre in order to have a stadium good enough to sustain European football. That’ll go down well I’m sure.

So with these points in mind, you say that the planning for a more self sustained running of the club is flawed, sorry I’m really struggling to see you suggest a viable alternative? Throwing money at it? Sorry, where is that money coming from?? Magic money tree?? Because as I’ve outlined above, if we go down the route, it will be money from a foreign owner, with the potential to be drinking from a poisoned chalice. 

So we don’t have an option but attempt to be more self sustainable, right? 

Perhaps the Burnley and Bournemouth route. Invest and stick by a young manager, invest in developing players. Get things in place behind the scenes, then invest more on the first team. Hang on, that plan sounds familiar......

So back to Lansdown. Generally I don’t share your cynicism. Firstly, the family is not going anywhere. They’ve invested millions into not just BCFC but Bristol Sport in general, Jon is being lined up to take on an increasingly prominent role as SL does less. They’ll be here for decades to come IMO.

It’s also been said time and time again, each arm of Bristol Sport is independent to each other. There is no evidence to say that City are in anyway propping up other areas of BS. Show me some and I’ll listen, for now, cynisim and gutfeelings on that subject are completely unfounded speculation. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but Bristol Sport doesn’t own Ashton Gate. The rugby is effectively a ‘tenant’ so don’t worry about that. Finally SL is, or has publicly stated that he is, open to wider investment in BCFC, so he’s already thought of that too.

Sorry I just think you haven't understood my reply

[Alessandro]

8 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Sorry I just think you haven't understood my reply

Wow, that’s great.

I’ve just addressed each of your points. You said the plan is flawed. I disagree and have said clearly why in detail above.

I’ve asked you to tell me what the alternative plan is, given you think our current one is flawed and this is your response?

Enlighten me then, I think I’ve completely understood you, if you think I haven’t, tell me why.

[Andy082005]

6 hours ago, EmissionImpossible said:

I think the confusing thing is that your opinion doesn’t come across as an opinion and you don’t seem to have any faith in the club.

I dont have a lot of faith in the club no. I havent for a long time. I was not suprised one bit when we failed to capitilise on our momentum in January. Weve been here before. 

[tinman85]

We are a poor side with a poor manager. Congrats to Neil Warnock for winning promotion. 

[Andy082005]

6 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

My bad - I mistook your opinion for a long held agenda.

God forbid anyone criticise the club for their constant **** ups. Might upset the forum illumati 

[Loco Rojo]

I think I'm over the disappintment to be honest. The hope i had that we would make the playoffs has disappeared since the manner of the Wolves collapse when the feeling walking away from the ground was soul distroying. That was a key turning point and some of the results since (Villa, Norwich, Bolton, Sunderland, Leeds and now Burton) have highlighted just how inconsistent we are and how much we've thrown away. Some of these games were must win if we wanted to keep up with the teams above us and at the moment I can't see where the next win or run of wins will come from.

I still think LJ is the right man for the job and in no way do I think his time is up - overall it's been a great season compared to last and hopefully LJ will learn from this season, we can keep the core of the team over the summer and build on it for next with some experienced Championship players who know the league.

[Isawjonshaw]

All part and parcel of watching the City I'm afraid!   I don't agree that it's still been a successful season, seems like we've been found out and don't have the tactical nous to counteract that, although we've been punching above our weight and our injuries have been awful, but the January transfer window was not clever to say the least.  I wish I didn't care at times like this, but it breaks my heart and I cant see us finishing in the top half.  Please prove me wrong City!!