Our away support: some context/perspective

[Wanderingred]

13 hours ago, JBFC II said:

According to this we are 14th, only a hundred average off being top half though

https://reeshowls.wordpress.com/2018/03/22/efl-attendances-part-5/

Yeah, those figures are compiled by a Sheffield Wednesday fan who gets the away figures from Twitter. He's quite an unpleasant character to be honest but his work is appreciated.

[OwlsonlineAdmin]

32 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

Yeah, those figures are compiled by a Sheffield Wednesday fan who gets the away figures from Twitter. He's quite an unpleasant character to be honest but his work is appreciated.

I find that offensive, you don't know me personally.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

I mentioned in another thread, we can only compare our away support to what people bring here. I imagine we’re pretty much matching average away games here and what we average travelling as well. We took about 1k more to Burton than what they bought here, we took more than what Reading bought here and would’ve matched Villa and Wolves attendances if the games were a Saturday or not restricted allocation.

 

Over the season I’d be shocked if we were miles away from the average bought to AG

[ChippenhamRed]

17 hours ago, cityred exile said:

How many do we all reckon should be going to Barnsley ?    1000 + it should be ! bet anyone we don't take 700  that's a big let down !

Hate posts like this. Why “should” it be any particular figure? How do you decide what par is?

There are numerous factors that influence away attendance; distance, opposition, form, league position, day, time, transport, police restrictions, time of year. Equally any one supporter will have their own reason for not attending. There is no reason for not travelling 100s of miles to watch a football team that isn’t valid that I can think of; it requires and investment of time and money that should never be an expectation.

There is no “should” about it. The attendance will be whatever it will be and it will reflect the circumstances on that particular occasion.

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

Ipswich have won the first division, the fa Cup, the uefa Cup and competed in the European Cup in their history, they are a much bigger club than us. 

25 years ago, Norwich were beating the likes of bayern Munich in Europe, again they are much bigger

Ipswich certainly were a much bigger club. That might be changing gradually, as their glory days slip further into the past but their away support holds up well. That away following, I suggest, is the legacy of the level of success they enjoyed for many seasons, a level of success we have not enjoyed and have been a million miles away from, with only 4 seasons of top class football since WWII (in a century, even), and three of those were a desperate struggle.

Norwich have not been as successful, but compared to us, they are like Real Madrid. Their support, home and away, has been excellent in recent years (but, historically, not always greater than ours: see seasons 1976 to 1980, for example).

Being a L1/Championship yo-yo club does not build an away following of any note. This is something we are still trying to overcome/shake off. Meantime, we'll not be taking thousands to Barnsley!

[ChippenhamRed]

If we really want to compare away attendances I’d say the fairest way would be a “supporter miles” system.

So, for example, if we take 1000 supporters to a game 100 miles away:

1000 x 100 = 100,000 supporter miles.

If we take 500 fans to a game 500 miles away:

500 x 500 = 250,000 supporter miles.

You could even factor in more awkward midweek evening kick offs by adding a x1.5 coefficient or something.

Then add up all the supporter miles at the end of the season and divide it by average home attendance to give a figure for “best” away support relative to home attendances.

Not perfect, but a fairer system than just looking at sheer numbers.

[Jack Dawe]

15 hours ago, Wanderingred said:

Our away support is poor if you compare it to the bigger clubs in the division is Wednesday, Norwich, Wolves, Leeds etc.. but then those clubs have had sustained periods of success which have allowed them to pick up a bigger following. This has never happened at City so why should we judge ourselves by their standards? 

 

This is the point of my thread. Comparisons need context and perspective.

Despite the good season we are having, we have spent way more time trying to get out of L1/desperately trying to avoid relegation to L1 than Wednesday, Norwich, Wolves and Leeds etc, and this shows especially in away support.

 

 

[downendcity]

21 hours ago, Red Army Faction said:

@Jack Dawe. Good post.  Nice to have facts and analysis rather than just opinion 

 

A poster using facts and analysis should have no place on this forum. 

[Wanderingred]

3 hours ago, OwlsonlineAdmin said:

I find that offensive, you don't know me personally.

I'm confused. The person I'm referring to goes by the name of SouthySWFC/Walkelyowl from one football forum. Banned on multiple occasions for abusing other forum members. It's him that does the figures isn't it? And you don't seem like him?

[OwlsonlineAdmin]

1 minute ago, Wanderingred said:

I'm confused. The person I'm referring to goes by the name of SouthySWFC/Walkelyowl from one football forum. Banned on multiple occasions for abusing other forum members. It's him that does the figures isn't it? And you don't seem like him?

Same person. I was banned once from 1FF.

[Wanderingred]

7 minutes ago, OwlsonlineAdmin said:

Same person. I was banned once from 1FF.

Well you've been extremely rude and unpleasant to me several times on 1FF, and I often read your posts on there so I stand by my comment. I don't want to drag this onto here though, so let's leave it at that. Keep up the good work with your website!

[Miah Dennehy]

3 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Hate posts like this. Why “should” it be any particular figure? How do you decide what par is?

There are numerous factors that influence away attendance; distance, opposition, form, league position, day, time, transport, police restrictions, time of year. Equally any one supporter will have their own reason for not attending. There is no reason for not travelling 100s of miles to watch a football team that isn’t valid that I can think of; it requires and investment of time and money that should never be an expectation.

There is no “should” about it. The attendance will be whatever it will be and it will reflect the circumstances on that particular occasion.

Away with you and your common sense, it has no place on here

[OwlsonlineAdmin]

6 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

Well you've been extremely rude and unpleasant to me several times on 1FF, and I often read your posts on there so I stand by my comment. I don't want to drag this onto here though, so let's leave it at that. Keep up the good work with your website!

If i have then I apologise Luke.

[cityred exile]

5 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

If we really want to compare away attendances I’d say the fairest way would be a “supporter miles” system.

So, for example, if we take 1000 supporters to a game 100 miles away:

1000 x 100 = 100,000 supporter miles.

If we take 500 fans to a game 500 miles away:

500 x 500 = 250,000 supporter miles.

You could even factor in more awkward midweek evening kick offs by adding a x1.5 coefficient or something.

Then add up all the supporter miles at the end of the season and divide it by average home attendance to give a figure for “best” away support relative to home attendances.

Not perfect, but a fairer system than just looking at sheer numbers.

As you can tell from  name Iam an  exile  from 45 years back    I calculate that I average 9220 miles a season  23 x 260 home matches  18 x180 (ave ) away  So realistically  every match for me is an a (AWAY DAY !)

[BS4 on Tour...]

8 hours ago, JBFC II said:

Ipswich have won the first division, the fa Cup, the uefa Cup and competed in the European Cup in their history, they are a much bigger club than us....

Spot on, they have been in the top two divisions since 1957, they’ve competed in all three of the previously established European cup competitions beating Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan, Inter Milan and Lazio along the way....they’ve never lost at home in a European cup competition and their stadium has a bigger capacity than the new, shiny Ashton Gate....and amongst their previous managers are Sir Alf Ramsey and Sir Bobby Robson - Ipswich Town are massive compared to Bristol City...

[BS4 on Tour...]

7 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

If we really want to compare away attendances I’d say the fairest way would be a “supporter miles” system.

So, for example, if we take 1000 supporters to a game 100 miles away:

1000 x 100 = 100,000 supporter miles.

If we take 500 fans to a game 500 miles away:

500 x 500 = 250,000 supporter miles.

You could even factor in more awkward midweek evening kick offs by adding a x1.5 coefficient or something.

Then add up all the supporter miles at the end of the season and divide it by average home attendance to give a figure for “best” away support relative to home attendances.

Not perfect, but a fairer system than just looking at sheer numbers.

Yep, good suggestion, but surely if a game is 100 miles away then it should be viewed as 200 miles because most fans will probably want to come home after the game?!

[ChippenhamRed]

10 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yep, good suggestion, but surely if a game is 100 miles away then it should be viewed as 200 miles because most fans will probably want to come home after the game?!

Yes you could make it a round-trip distance if you like!

[BS4 on Tour...]

11 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Yes you could make it a round-trip distance if you like!

Well, I’ve seen City at over 80 away clubs (I count the clubs not the stadia because some have had two or three - eg I’ve watched us at two Huddersfield grounds, two Chesterfield grounds, two Walsall grounds, two Cardiff grounds, three gas tips - etc) and I always want to come home!

[jimmyb]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yep, good suggestion, but surely if a game is 100 miles away then it should be viewed as 200 miles because most fans will probably want to come home after the game?!

 

50 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Yes you could make it a round-trip distance if you like!

I’m no mathematical genius but does that not give you exactly the same result, just the number’s twice as much?

[Bar BS3]

2 hours ago, cityred exile said:

As you can tell from  name Iam an  exile  from 45 years back    I calculate that I average 9220 miles a season  23 x 260 home matches  18 x180 (ave ) away  So realistically  every match for me is an a (AWAY DAY !)

It would obviously be worked out on distance from each teams home ground!

Anyway, again, this bet that you wanted to make on us not taking 700 to Barnsley..? I’m waiting for you to tell me the wager..?

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Spot on, they have been in the top two divisions since 1957, they’ve competed in all three of the previously established European cup competitions beating Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan, Inter Milan and Lazio along the way....they’ve never lost at home in a European cup competition and their stadium has a bigger capacity than the new, shiny Ashton Gate....and amongst their previous managers are Sir Alf Ramsey and Sir Bobby Robson - Ipswich Town are massive compared to Bristol City...

Agree. Ipswich Town have a much much richer history than ourselves, the same goes for many at this level.. To be honest ive always found our sort of inferiority complex that surrounds our attendances as a bit strange, i mean with our clubs history i dont really know what people expect. Decades and decades in the lower leagues has never meant we have been able to build the fanbases that your Sheff Weds Leeds etc have built.. okay for many of these clubs it has been yonks since they have seen the good times but the key is they HAVE seen the good times, something that Bristol City football club havnt ever seen unless you want to class a few good years in the second tier and very small stint in the top tier as ‘good times’ which I wouldn’t overly to be honest! 

I think all things considered our attendance are bloody decent considering the shit we have had to put up with. Also weather people like to admitt it or not but sharing the City with the sags really doesn’t help. What are they averaging, 8k at home? Add that to our 21k home average and thats 28k straight away if there was only one club in this city, then add the extra on the away attendance and suddenly its looking a lot better and thats without any success.. I genuinely think if either Bristol club would have had the sustained success that some clubs have had the potential is there for a massive club in this City... 

[Bar BS3]

On 24/03/2018 at 22:05, Bar BS3 said:

Fair point. Here’s a question for any statto’s out there...

Of the clubs not to have had any time in the Premier league yet, who have the hugest average away followings..?

I’ve just looked this up. 

We have THE highest average home attendance of clubs that have not had a spell in the Premier league and the second highest average away following of teams who’ve not yet been in the premier league. 139 less, on average, than Millwall, who head up that list. 

So, compared to teams who have also had a lack of league success over the past 30 years, our average support, Home and away, compares pretty favourably. 

[Bar BS3]

On 24/03/2018 at 22:05, Bar BS3 said:

Fair point. Here’s a question for any statto’s out there...

Of the clubs not to have had any time in the Premier league yet, who have the hugest average away followings..?

I’ve just looked this up. 

We have THE highest average home attendance of clubs that have not had a spell in the Premier league and the second highest average away following of teams who’ve not yet been in the premier league. 139 less, on average, than Millwall, who head up that list. 

So, compared to teams who have also had a lack of league success over the past 30 years, our average support, Home and away, compares pretty favourably. 

[cidered abroad]

56 minutes ago, bris red said:

Agree. Ipswich Town have a much much richer history than ourselves, the same goes for many at this level.. To be honest ive always found our sort of inferiority complex that surrounds our attendances as a bit strange, i mean with our clubs history i dont really know what people expect. Decades and decades in the lower leagues has never meant we have been able to build the fanbases that your Sheff Weds Leeds etc have built.. okay for many of these clubs it has been yonks since they have seen the good times but the key is they HAVE seen the good times, something that Bristol City football club havnt ever seen unless you want to class a few good years in the second tier and very small stint in the top tier as ‘good times’ which I wouldn’t overly to be honest! 

I think all things considered our attendance are bloody decent considering the shit we have had to put up with. Also weather people like to admitt it or not but sharing the City with the sags really doesn’t help. What are they averaging, 8k at home? Add that to our 21k home average and thats 28k straight away if there was only one club in this city, then add the extra on the away attendance and suddenly its looking a lot better and thats without any success.. I genuinely think if either Bristol club would have had the sustained success that some clubs have had the potential is there for a massive club in this City... 

Spot on. Hit the nail very sweetly on the head.

[Bar BS3]

On 24/03/2018 at 23:57, bobby kellard was go said:

Thanks very much,ive tried to google such things without any success 

 

On 24/03/2018 at 20:25, bobby kellard was go said:

Where did you get your stats/figures from? i struggle to find away support statistics.

 

[havanatopia]

Quite right Jack.. Exactly what i said on the other thread talking about the Barnsley away following. Every away fan for City is a hero regardless of qty. They all deserve a huge pat on the back. Maybe one day the club can reward this appropriately.

[ChippenhamRed]

7 hours ago, jimmyb said:

 

I’m no mathematical genius but does that not give you exactly the same result, just the number’s twice as much?

It does, but I thought I’d just go with it. The score ratio between different clubs would remain exactly the same.

[Kid in the Riot]

9 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Spot on, they have been in the top two divisions since 1957, they’ve competed in all three of the previously established European cup competitions beating Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan, Inter Milan and Lazio along the way....they’ve never lost at home in a European cup competition and their stadium has a bigger capacity than the new, shiny Ashton Gate....and amongst their previous managers are Sir Alf Ramsey and Sir Bobby Robson - Ipswich Town are massive compared to Bristol City...

Yet they are currently struggling to get more than about 13k at Portman Road...some of their 'actual' crowds of late have been rumoured to be less than 10k (which is perfectly plausible when taking into consideration missing ST holders

[1960maaan]

18 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

If we really want to compare away attendances I’d say the fairest way would be a “supporter miles” system.

Agree, nothing will be perfect but the comparisons do change perceptions.

An example is Birmingham averaging 1676 fans per game , average distance to each game is 104 miles
Our average FPG is 1418 , quite a bit less per game but , our average distance to each game is 162 miles 
Multiply. distance by fans and you get;

City   : 229,716

Brum: 174,304

Of course this doesn't prove much, but on average we travel  nearly 60 miles more per game that must impact on numbers. Specially when games are on TV and moved because of it (depending where there are of course). Every team above us in away fan numbers, has had success in some form since football started in '92 , and many have success in real terms. I think our away following is ok , it will improve some if we are in and around the top of the Championship for a time, but it will take a while to make a continued improvement.

[OwlsonlineAdmin]

7 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

 

 

Hey up fella can i request you post the link not the tables please.