How are we to judge this season, from these two possible options:

[Jack Dawe]

Do we:

1. Look up the table, and see that only 6 clubs are performing better than us, and note that those 6 clubs are all bigger and better and mightier clubs than us with history, and parachute payments, and greater spending power etc etc, and so decide that this has been, despite the disappointment of slipping from 2nd to 7th, a jolly good effort by LJ and co. Or:

2. Do we look down the table, and see that immediately below us are two of the promoted clubs, and that for all the money we have had to lavish on players compared to the two immediately below us (and other advantages), and all the transfer windows etc, we have after 39 games accumulated just the one more point than them? Is that enough to say, this has been a jolly good effort?*

 

Which way do we look/judge? Or do we do neither, and recognise that comparisons with others are complicated/simplistic/unhelpful? And settle for the improvement on 18th in 2016, 17th in 2017, to wherever we finish this season (much much higher in the table with many more points)?

 

 

 

 

 

*Yes, yes,  I know that the mighty, and massive, and famous, Leeds Utd are below us, but they are a fruitcake mess of a club, and yes, I know that European Cup winners Nottm Forest are below us too. But they are at least two years behind us now - they just loaned in Lee Tomlin in January. Frankly, we really should be doing better than them.

 

[Charlie BCFC]

I would look positively at the season and it’s impressive where we are

[Eddie Hitler]

If we finish in the top ten that's good, if we finish in the play offs that's excellent.  Either way it sets us up nicely for next season in terms of keeping the players we have and attracting new ones.

Many clubs have splashed the cash and not ended up that high.

[Hampshire Red]

Eddie nails it. 

[Meh]

I think the last 10 weeks or so including a woeful January transfer window have been disappointing.

The season has been progress compared to last year but the last few weeks have been a replication of last year and who’s to say next year will be any different?

We need a big summer and I hope the extra fan investment (for lesser perks) will be utilised in the transfer market.

[lager loud]

In isolation, and whatever happens in the last few matches, this has to be considered a good season. We're competing at the top end of the championship and have played some fantastic football. 

But unless we get promoted we won't really be able to assess this season until some time next season, IMO - maybe later. If we continue to look like a team that belongs in the top 8-10 of the table, bring through some more young players and do some good transfer business, this season will be seen as part of a progression making us a club competing at a higher level than we have traditionally.

But if our form and results are more like the last three months' than the previous three, and LJ can't find a way to improve things, this season might look like a flash in the pan.

I don't claim to know which of these it will be. My gut feeling is that the club structures are in place to make the first scenario feasible, but that LJ needs to improve further to continue to compete with some very canny coaches in this league, to prevent the second outcome.

[Bazooka Joe]

4 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

If we finish in the top ten that's good, if we finish in the play offs that's excellent.  Either way it sets us up nicely for next season in terms of keeping the players we have and attracting new ones.

Many clubs have splashed the cash and not ended up that high.

I've no doubt we'll attract new players.

The important question is - "how good will they turn out to be?"

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Neo

Walsh and Kent aren't being used correctly for a start, Diony I accept dreadful, plus his confidence...well he has none.

Who are these great January targets of which you speak? Cameron Jerome... Has been crap at Derby. That's one example only I know.

[ashton_fan]

Before the season started most on here were saying a top 10 finish would be a success. We're going to achieve that as a minimum and also we've had a League Cup semi-final so this season has been an undoubted success, the first Championship season where we haven't been in the relegation scrap for many years

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, lager loud said:

In isolation, and whatever happens in the last few matches, this has to be considered a good season. We're competing at the top end of the championship and have played some fantastic football. 

But unless we get promoted we won't really be able to assess this season until some time next season, IMO - maybe later. If we continue to look like a team that belongs in the top 8-10 of the table, bring through some more young players and do some good transfer business, this season will be seen as part of a progression making us a club competing at a higher level than we have traditionally.

But if our form and results are more like the last three months' than the previous three, and LJ can't find a way to improve things, this season might look like a flash in the pan.

I don't claim to know which of these it will be. My gut feeling is that the club structures are in place to make the first scenario feasible, but that LJ needs to improve further to continue to compete with some very canny coaches in this league, to prevent the second outcome.

Sensible summary.

Although our home stats are better than our away stats....35pts from 19 versus 27pts from 20, we are the 8th best home team and the 7th best away team....for me it is the inability to "put in a performance" away over the last few months that has hindered us.

We seem to play nothing like our home style away from home, and I know playing away is harder (history tells us this).  The confidence of playing at home isn’t there, we become 3 units rather than a team.  I think there is an arrogance in LJ that says we can play through teams away from home, but as soon as that doesn’t work, we resort to playing back-front....and unsuccessfully too.  LJ needs to reflect on this, and work out a way of playing away that brings results and performance.  The key to me is that Pack and Smith get isolated.  I think we need another one in there....either 4141, or 451.

If we lose at Boro and Millwall, then that is gonna really set us back.  We are capable, if we can find a way of playing away, of getting something at both.  Stopping them getting the proverbial 6 pointer is vital.

I still think we’ll finish top 6 (I Retain faith), but I am less confident that the way this team is playing at the moment could compete in the lower reaches of the Prem.  Had you asked me that at Xmas, I thought we were no worse than your Huddersfield’s, West Brom’s etc.

If we don’t go up, I worry that this side won’t have what it takes to mount another challenge.  This season becomes crucial as a result.

Once again, the next fixture, Brentford, becomes critical.

Sorry, bit of a ramble.

[Meh]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Neo

Walsh and Kent aren't being used correctly for a start, Diony I accept dreadful, plus his confidence...well he has none.

Who are these great January targets of which you speak? Cameron Jerome... Has been crap at Derby. That's one example only I know.

I don’t think I spoke about great transfer targets - when did I mention that?

What I said was it was woeful and 1 player lacking confidence and 2 who do not then fit our style of play (presuming that is what is meant by not being used correctly) out of the 3 brought in seems to fit the term woeful.

I don’t know who the targets should be - I’m a fan; not a scout - but different from what we ended up with would seem sensible.

[spudski]

I can't say how you can judge a season until it's over.

21 points to play for.

We may end up in the play offs...or drop off to mid table obscurity.

Still loads to play for.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Neo said:

I don’t think I spoke about great transfer targets - when did I mention that?

What I said was it was woeful and 1 player lacking confidence and 2 who do not then fit our style of play (presuming that is what is meant by not being used correctly) out of the 3 brought in seems to fit the term woeful.

I don’t know who the targets should be - I’m a fan; not a scout - but different from what we ended up with would seem sensible.

You said it was a 'woeful window'. Dunno why I wrote about targets tbh.

I would say yeah, Diony no doubt terrible signing for a variety of reasons. I would say not being used correctly is a failure to adapt on both sides personally...I would have liked to have seen a shift in the style of play to see if we could get more out of Kent certainly- Walsh not so much but he could provide useful cover centrally. 

I don't think there was anyone- except Afobe and Mitrovic- who would have truly fitted the bill in January as a likely guarantee or as close as we can get to one really. Would have taken one of them all day long however, but doubt Afobe would have chosen us over Wolves in Jan- Mitrovic could have gone for us over Fulham though!

I still think we could have got more out of Kent especially  though- but it would have  mean a shift away from Brownhill Smith Pack Paterson, with Diedhiou and Reid up front that we currently play  and it would have been a trade-off as in, would shifting things a bit to accommodate Kent and Walsh be, have been, worth it.

[glynriley]

29 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Before the season started most on here were saying a top 10 finish would be a success. We're going to achieve that as a minimum and also we've had a League Cup semi-final so this season has been an undoubted success, the first Championship season where we haven't been in the relegation scrap for many years

Before the season started myself and probably most on here would have taken top 10 in a heartbeat. 

However, I was asked over Christmas where I thought we'd finish and, whilst I didn't think we had the depth for automatic promotion, admitted that i'd be disappointed if we didn't make the play offs. 

We still can of course, but were now trying to fight our way back in despite being in an extremely strong position back then. 

Reaching the semi final is of course an achievement for us but that run and in particular the result v Manchester United should have been a catalyst for moving forwards. 

I revised my targets around Christmas but I'm not convinced the club did. 

[General Zod]

Top 10 and still in with a chance of a playoff spot at Easter was beyond my wildest dreams (which are pretty wild may I add).  The disappointing thing for me is that for the first half of the season and for the first time under LJ I thought I finally understood where we were going as a club, what we are all about, our DNA to coin an annoying term. I was starting to be brought round by the powers to be.  What I’ve seen since Christmas makes me question all that’s gone before.  Clueless football and strange management decisions for a team that doesn’t appear to have learnt from last season .  I challenge anyone watching recent performances to think we are anything other than predictable, long ball, long throw merchants who lack energy and creativity around the oppositions box.  In football you need to grab your chances when presented even if they come along earlier than planned.  For this reason, if we don’t make the playoffs this season will always be one which leaves me frustrated at what should/could have been.

[lager loud]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Sensible summary.

Although our home stats are better than our away stats....35pts from 19 versus 27pts from 20, we are the 8th best home team and the 7th best away team....for me it is the inability to "put in a performance" away over the last few months that has hindered us.

We seem to play nothing like our home style away from home, and I know playing away is harder (history tells us this).  The confidence of playing at home isn’t there, we become 3 units rather than a team.  I think there is an arrogance in LJ that says we can play through teams away from home, but as soon as that doesn’t work, we resort to playing back-front....and unsuccessfully too.  LJ needs to reflect on this, and work out a way of playing away that brings results and performance.  The key to me is that Pack and Smith get isolated.  I think we need another one in there....either 4141, or 451.

If we lose at Boro and Millwall, then that is gonna really set us back.  We are capable, if we can find a way of playing away, of getting something at both.  Stopping them getting the proverbial 6 pointer is vital.

I still think we’ll finish top 6 (I Retain faith), but I am less confident that the way this team is playing at the moment could compete in the lower reaches of the Prem.  Had you asked me that at Xmas, I thought we were no worse than your Huddersfield’s, West Brom’s etc.

If we don’t go up, I worry that this side won’t have what it takes to mount another challenge.  This season becomes crucial as a result.

Once again, the next fixture, Brentford, becomes critical.

Sorry, bit of a ramble.

Unusually, I haven't been to an away league game this season - Millwall will be my first - so apart from the TV games I'm not in a position to comment on the different styles home and away: but we haven't always managed to impose our style on other teams at Ashton Gate in recent weeks.

The good thing about the last few weeks is that in spite of indifferent form we've achived results no worse than many of the teams around us and are still in the mix. We only need to find a few more results to get a playoff spot.

If we kept all of the current squad (unlikely, I know) I think we might have the raw materials to challenge again, particularly if we can avoid the long-term injuries of this season. But I think we need to improve the way those players are used, being flexible enough to respond to teams and managers who find a way to frustrate our Plan A. I'm not sure LJ has the nous to do this ATM - which is not to say he can't develop it.

[Dr Balls]

2 hours ago, glynriley said:

Before the season started myself and probably most on here would have taken top 10 in a heartbeat. 

However, I was asked over Christmas where I thought we'd finish and, whilst I didn't think we had the depth for automatic promotion, admitted that i'd be disappointed if we didn't make the play offs. 

We still can of course, but were now trying to fight our way back in despite being in an extremely strong position back then. 

Reaching the semi final is of course an achievement for us but that run and in particular the result v Manchester United should have been a catalyst for moving forwards. 

I revised my targets around Christmas but I'm not convinced the club did. 

I think you have hit the proverbial nail on its head as far as most fans are concerned. Our form up to Christmas, the cup run, particularly the victory over ManUre, and all of the media attention around New Year really raised fans' expectations. It may have turned a few players' heads as well. But Mark Ashton and the club did not change their position, as confirmed by his "not going for promotion" comment. On a business level that might make sense, but professional sport is an unusual business, and often you have to take the opportunity presented rather than slowly building towards something, which may disappear when your 23 competitors may change their model of working at short notice. 

Look let's be honest, this season has been a vast improvement on 2016-17, but the first shoots of this season's upturn appeared in our run of games at the end of last season, excepting the dreadful last game against Birmingham. Am I confident that we could achieve the same next year? Not overly, but it seems far more possible than if you had asked me this time last year.

[Maggersno1Fan]

I think he is duping the stats as the shots & shots on target are low.

passing & possession is high’ish as well.

 

 

[swanker]

4 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

Before the season started most on here were saying a top 10 finish would be a success. We're going to achieve that as a minimum and also we've had a League Cup semi-final so this season has been an undoubted success, the first Championship season where we haven't been in the relegation scrap for many years

I have agree with you but it’s frustrating to see how we seem to be slipping away for the playoffs. Looking at the table and another 3 points and we’re right back in the mix. It would have been fantastic to finish in the top six and the excitement levels and crowds would have been good for the club and supporters. I just hope we can get some form back and that the season doesn’t fizzle out. 

[Offside]

I'm really enjoying this season - much more so than the previous two campaigns when relegation looked like it was on the cards. There are still plenty of points to play for and at least we are challenging at the right end of the table. I'm just taking each game at a time and enjoying the ride. If we don't get into the play-offs it will be frustrating but so be it. 

A positive season so far, although I would like us to get back to playing like we did before Xmas (even if the results aren't as good). 

[Flagon]

I think if we were on the run Millwall have been on lately we’d all be more optimistic simply because we just haven’t been that good since January.

But we are in with an excellent chance of getting into the top six. It’s just current form has put a real downer on that position and people’s views on how this season can be viewed.

[nickolas]

To be fair i think if we fail to make play offs it will feel like we threw it away. 

I didnt expect anywhere near play offs starting this season but, having been so good up to christmas, not making play offs will feel like a huge disappointment. 

Strange isnt it. Never expected it. Then expected it at christmas. Now will be gutted if we dont make it!

to be fair im not sure i want play offs as we’ll get Fulham or Villa and i dont fancy us over two legs versus either now!

[Robbored]

This season has been a significant improvement on last season, essentially because LJ has got in players he rates as capable of playing his way. High press and high tempo is a new style for City but he's coached the squad in playing that way and quite rightly gets pissy when they don't do it.

It'll be even better next season under LJ. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

52 minutes ago, nickolas said:

To be fair i think if we fail to make play offs it will feel like we threw it away. 

I didnt expect anywhere near play offs starting this season but, having been so good up to christmas, not making play offs will feel like a huge disappointment. 

Strange isnt it. Never expected it. Then expected it at christmas. Now will be gutted if we dont make it!

to be fair im not sure i want play offs as we’ll get Fulham or Villa and i dont fancy us over two legs versus either now!

I know Villa hammered us 5-0, and drew at AG, but their form not that hot last few weeks...

Fulham otoh? No loss since 16th December!! Beat Wolves, Cardiff, Villa, Derby, Middlesbrough, Sheffield Utd, won at Preston and also beat both East Anglia clubs in that run, but we held them to a draw!

They are in pretty unbelievable form..they are tbh best placed to get 2nd if Cardiff slow up a bit!

 

 

 

[Eddie Hitler]

There's an interesting table of squad cost Vs league position in The Mail today though I couldn't find it in the online edition so here's the edited version.

We are £19.5m and 7th.

Doing better (on this basis) are:

Cardiff £18.6m and 2nd

Sheff Utd £5.9m and 9th

Preston £2.1m and 10th

Millwall £0.8m and 8th

 

The top four all have squads costing more than £60m: Villa, Boro and Wolves doing well but Hull down in 18th.

There is then a £20m drop to Derby on £41.1m / 5th.

Sunderland rank worst with £40.6m / 23rd.

 

I know it's not the only measure of cost.  A lot of the ex-Prem clubs have had these players for a while rather than buying them all thus season and Cardiff are paying top wages for free transfers.

But it does show that we're at a third of the top four in squad cost and roughly half of Derby / Sunderland / Fulham / Norwich.

That reinforces IMO that this is a good season and we have over performed.

[Davefevs]

On 31/03/2018 at 22:28, Robbored said:

This season has been a significant improvement on last season, essentially because LJ has got in players he rates as capable of playing his way. High press and high tempo is a new style for City but he's coached the squad in playing that way and quite rightly gets pissy when they don't do it.

why don’t they do it?  Especially away from home?

It'll be even better next season under LJ. 

That’s a bold statement....I think next season will be tougher.  There have been loads of highs this season, and we’ll see what the players are made of.  

 

[chinapig]

30 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

There's an interesting table of squad cost Vs league position in The Mail today though I couldn't find it in the online edition so here's the edited version.

We are £19.5m and 7th.

Doing better (on this basis) are:

Cardiff £18.6m and 2nd

Sheff Utd £5.9m and 9th

Preston £2.1m and 10th

Millwall £0.8m and 8th

 

The top four all have squads costing more than £60m: Villa, Boro and Wolves doing well but Hull down in 18th.

There is then a £20m drop to Derby on £41.1m / 5th.

Sunderland rank worst with £40.6m / 23rd.

 

I know it's not the only measure of cost.  A lot of the ex-Prem clubs have had these players for a while rather than buying them all thus season and Cardiff are paying top wages for free transfers.

But it does show that we're at a third of the top four in squad cost and roughly half of Derby / Sunderland / Fulham / Norwich.

That reinforces IMO that this is a good season and we have over performed.

Interesting thanks but I would like to see comparative wage bills. I suspect Preston, Millwall and Brentford would come out well from that comparison.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Interesting thanks but I would like to see comparative wage bills. I suspect Preston, Millwall and Brentford would come out well from that comparison.

And villa are spending £5.2m (£100k pw) on John Terry.....that’s our whole year’s Season Ticket revenue.  Startling isn’t it.

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

There's an interesting table of squad cost Vs league position in The Mail today though I couldn't find it in the online edition so here's the edited version.

We are £19.5m and 7th.

Doing better (on this basis) are:

Cardiff £18.6m and 2nd

Sheff Utd £5.9m and 9th

Preston £2.1m and 10th

Millwall £0.8m and 8th

 

The top four all have squads costing more than £60m: Villa, Boro and Wolves doing well but Hull down in 18th.

There is then a £20m drop to Derby on £41.1m / 5th.

Sunderland rank worst with £40.6m / 23rd.

 

I know it's not the only measure of cost.  A lot of the ex-Prem clubs have had these players for a while rather than buying them all thus season and Cardiff are paying top wages for free transfers.

But it does show that we're at a third of the top four in squad cost and roughly half of Derby / Sunderland / Fulham / Norwich.

That reinforces IMO that this is a good season and we have over performed.

But this is the point of my thread, Eddie: do we look at those with much bigger budgets, and say "we're doing great"?

Or look at Sheff Utd and Millwall and ask: can we not do a bit better please, Lee? Can you do one, but not the other (I'm struggling to)?

 

 I think both are valid! But I think next season, we have to be doing better and getting more for our transfer spend/wages if we are serious about promotion from this division, at some point. As good as it is that we are doing so much better than Sunderland, Forest, Leeds, LJ needs to get more out of his resources - like Millwall are doing.

If we're not really bothered about promotion then great! We're doing fine. Nothing to question or worry about. Carry on as you are.... 

 

 

[Alessandro]

For me, and for many others (who’ve now changed their tune) progression, is what I wanted to see. Everything I say next is all food for thought.

I think people have got so worked analysing this, that and looking for reasons and excuses for this and that - they can’t see the wood for the trees anymore. There are for me, 3 big misconceptions about this season:

1) Shocking run and form since Christmas - Yes form took a big dip and we’ve all discussed reasons, some in our control, some not. But depsite the run we’ve had since Christmas, say take from Wolves to today, it’s a incorrect to say it’s been relegation form. We’ve collected 2 points less than Derby since Wolves and only lost 2 times more than Boro. The draws have cost us. So astonishingly, although you wouldn’t believe it the way some are, we are still level on points with the top 6 and in with a chance. Despite having a manager who still can’t get us out of a bad run, we are 7th in the form table (last 5 games) and more importantly (in progression terms)......

We are still the (joint) 4th hardest team in this division to beat. That is to say only 3 team have lost less games than us and we’ve suffered less than half the number of defeats this, than the last two seasons.

For me that is massive progression, so despite people comparing to last seasons run of defeats and arguing our recruitment or coaching or whatever isn’t working, you’re wrong, the progression is plain to see.

2) I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - a team may be 1st or 2nd or 5th or wherever at some point in the season, but that doesn’t mean you’re good enough to be there the whole season. 

My quick glance would say at least 10 teams have been in the top 2 at some point this season. Think that shows how tough it is to stay up there. 

Top 6 has probably been 12/13 different teams at one time or another.

You have to have squad depth and quality, luck with injuries, luck with suspensions, luck all round sometimes. All things we’ve not got yet. 

I’d also add that “quality of football” idea. People are convinced we’ve stopped playing our natural game. Well it’s very easy to watch City and not the opposition - interesting to know that of all the teams in the top 10, Bristol City are the team that have the highest number of fouls committed against us.....

3) If we’d spent more in January....sorry but there is so much wrong with this which ever way you look at it. Take Derby and Villa, both thrown 2nd away, both have spent big (neither Jerome or Grabban helping them in keep up with 2nd) and look at Cardiff and Millwall (as people now want to compare teams that haven’t spent big) but are in cracking form. No guarantees in spending other than more debt.

And bottom line for me - we have a recruitment process which IS giving us progression. Crazy to blow the budget and make the same mistakes of the past. Ultimately you need to respect the man with the bank balance if that’s the way he wishes to do it.